Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Jehan wrote: Just checking master, currently when overwrite is shown, export-to is not grayed out but it is invisible. That means that it is active and can be run if you know the shortcut, but you can't export from the menu (for people who don't know shortcuts, new or casual users, etc.). Is it intended? I feel like this is a mistake and that Export To should always show up in the menu. I could easily fix this. yes this is intentional. the spec says: ‘The shortcut for the Export menu item shall remain active and map to invoking the Export As… command, sneaky, but true.’ I have done this so that users who press ctrl-E by habit are not stopped by nothing happening. Users who browse the menu see Export As... (the new label) and pick that. nobody gets hurt. things work as expected. sneaky, but true. In any case, I have written a patch here: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712192 I guess you can tell if that's good for you Sorry Jehan, no. you change too much and I must say, with devastating effect. first of all I did my job and updated the spec: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification checked 98 occurrences of “export” (twice) and updated to the new situation. in a nutshell, all it is is a string change. Export... - Export As... (no other changes to this menu item or the code behind it. “Export to” - Export (when no export target) (this is the menu item where “Export to foo.xyz” and “Overwrite foo.xyz” are swapped in as appropriate) do not touch the Save menu items, they work fine, as-is, since 1984. Save is for the main window content and the name of that is in the title bar of that main window. and that is it. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Hi, On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:49 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: Jehan wrote: Just checking master, currently when overwrite is shown, export-to is not grayed out but it is invisible. That means that it is active and can be run if you know the shortcut, but you can't export from the menu (for people who don't know shortcuts, new or casual users, etc.). Is it intended? I feel like this is a mistake and that Export To should always show up in the menu. I could easily fix this. yes this is intentional. the spec says: ‘The shortcut for the Export menu item shall remain active and map to invoking the Export As… command, sneaky, but true.’ I have done this so that users who press ctrl-E by habit are not stopped by nothing happening. Users who browse the menu see Export As... (the new label) and pick that. nobody gets hurt. things work as expected. sneaky, but true. In any case, I have written a patch here: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712192 I guess you can tell if that's good for you Sorry Jehan, no. you change too much and I must say, with devastating effect. first of all I did my job and updated the spec: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification checked 98 occurrences of “export” (twice) and updated to the new situation. in a nutshell, all it is is a string change. Export... - Export As... (no other changes to this menu item or the code behind it. “Export to” - Export (when no export target) (this is the menu item where “Export to foo.xyz” and “Overwrite foo.xyz” are swapped in as appropriate) do not touch the Save menu items, they work fine, as-is, since 1984. Save is for the main window content and the name of that is in the title bar of that main window. and that is it. Ok. I'll simplify the patch. Should I change the action's names to follow their label? In particular Export would correspond to file-export and Export As... corresponds to file-export-as (otherwise we would end up in the strange situation where Export = file-export-to and Export As... = file-export). Or you care only about UI, not action names, and I should ask Mitch for this? Thanks. Jehan --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Jehan wrote: Should I change the action's names to follow their label? In particular Export would correspond to file-export and Export As... corresponds to file-export-as (otherwise we would end up in the strange situation where Export = file-export-to and Export As... = file-export). I think it is better that the action names migrate with it. but better ask mitch what the rules are for changing this. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
From: pe...@mmiworks.net Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 02:25:47 +0100 To: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow I think I can see what Akkana means: when there is no export target, the menu items are “Export to” and “Export...” that is not ideal. and it’s clear that it irritates people. note that the export-to item cannot be grayed out in this case. ctrl-E just has to work (leading to an Export..., yes, just as the first Save is a Save As...) reviewing the situation, I see that the straightforward solution is to relabel Export... - Export As... (in all states) “Export to” - Export (when no export target) you can see that this achieves perfect mirroring of Save and Save As... “Export to foo.xyz” and “Overwrite foo.xyz” stay as-is, they work well with Export As... (just in case you wonder, yes I am giving up on something by doing this: in so many other application the label on the export menu item is Export... ) --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list I definitely agree that the labelling of the Export/Export To commands should completely mirror the labelling of Save/Save As commands. PS: Can we get some accelerator keys put on those menu labels sometime? -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Richard Gitschlag wrote: PS: Can we get some accelerator keys put on those menu labels sometime? apart from Overwrite (by design), where are you missing one? --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Hi, On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: guys + girls, it is a tricky thing, this overwrite vs. export. there is a difference, overwrite is for working ‘backward’ as I called it: doing some work on a non-gimp file and feeding this directly back to it. it is labelled brutally and frankly, with intent. export is for working ‘forward’, towards a new result. but as Richard comments, the difference is not that big. this is what I exploited in the design for repurposing the Export-to item for Overwrite. of course one can use Export... to set up to write over one of the source files of the composition one is working on. thus exporting is the general game, with one special case built in: hardwiring the initiating source file as export target and giving this a fearsome name (beware: burning bridges) Yes, Export-to and Export... mirror images of Save and Save-as... I think I can see what Akkana means: when there is no export target, the menu items are “Export to” and “Export...” that is not ideal. and it’s clear that it irritates people. note that the export-to item cannot be grayed out in this case. ctrl-E just has to work (leading to an Export..., yes, just as the first Save is a Save As...) Just checking master, currently when overwrite is shown, export-to is not grayed out but it is invisible. That means that it is active and can be run if you know the shortcut, but you can't export from the menu (for people who don't know shortcuts, new or casual users, etc.). Is it intended? I feel like this is a mistake and that Export To should always show up in the menu. I could easily fix this. reviewing the situation, I see that the straightforward solution is to relabel Export... - Export As... (in all states) “Export to” - Export (when no export target) I like the change. When there is an export target, should it become Export As somefile.png? Jehan you can see that this achieves perfect mirroring of Save and Save As... “Export to foo.xyz” and “Overwrite foo.xyz” stay as-is, they work well with Export As... (just in case you wonder, yes I am giving up on something by doing this: in so many other application the label on the export menu item is Export... ) --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Hi, On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jehan Pagès jehan.marmott...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: guys + girls, it is a tricky thing, this overwrite vs. export. there is a difference, overwrite is for working ‘backward’ as I called it: doing some work on a non-gimp file and feeding this directly back to it. it is labelled brutally and frankly, with intent. export is for working ‘forward’, towards a new result. but as Richard comments, the difference is not that big. this is what I exploited in the design for repurposing the Export-to item for Overwrite. of course one can use Export... to set up to write over one of the source files of the composition one is working on. thus exporting is the general game, with one special case built in: hardwiring the initiating source file as export target and giving this a fearsome name (beware: burning bridges) Yes, Export-to and Export... mirror images of Save and Save-as... I think I can see what Akkana means: when there is no export target, the menu items are “Export to” and “Export...” that is not ideal. and it’s clear that it irritates people. note that the export-to item cannot be grayed out in this case. ctrl-E just has to work (leading to an Export..., yes, just as the first Save is a Save As...) Just checking master, currently when overwrite is shown, export-to is not grayed out but it is invisible. That means that it is active and can be run if you know the shortcut, but you can't export from the menu (for people who don't know shortcuts, new or casual users, etc.). Is it intended? I feel like this is a mistake and that Export To should always show up in the menu. I could easily fix this. reviewing the situation, I see that the straightforward solution is to relabel Export... - Export As... (in all states) “Export to” - Export (when no export target) I like the change. When there is an export target, should it become Export As somefile.png? In any case, I have written a patch here: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712192 I guess you can tell if that's good for you, so that it can be committed. :-) Jehan Jehan you can see that this achieves perfect mirroring of Save and Save As... “Export to foo.xyz” and “Overwrite foo.xyz” stay as-is, they work well with Export As... (just in case you wonder, yes I am giving up on something by doing this: in so many other application the label on the export menu item is Export... ) --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Jehan Pagès writes: Just checking master, currently when overwrite is shown, export-to is not grayed out but it is invisible. That means that it is active and can be run if you know the shortcut, but you can't export from the menu (for people who don't know shortcuts, new or casual users, etc.). It's definitely useful to have it available via the shortcut (now that I'm clear on what it does :-) -- I'd use it in preference to Overwrite since it means I only have to remember that one shortcut (plus Ctrl-S, of course). And thanks, Peter, for the name change! These: Export... - Export As... (in all states) “Export to” - Export (when no export target) do seem clearer since they're more similar to Save and Save as... ...Akkana ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:15:23 -0800 From: akk...@shallowsky.com To: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow I've found that the new model makes me stop and think every time I save or export anything. For one thing, I'm still confused about the difference between Export... and Export to -- they seem to do the same thing even though one has a ... and the other doesn't, they have different shortcuts, and one of them isn't always available. And I can never remember in any given session which images can use Overwrite versus which ones need an Export... or Export to, so I no longer trust any save/export shortcut to be the right one, and almost always end up going to the menus instead. It's just like the difference between Save and Save As in that, during the same session, Export uses the settings from the previous export (if any) while Export to... always prompts for a filename. Of course, if you don't export very often then the difference is moot because every export happens during a different session. And similar to you, one thing *I* don't get is why Export and Overwrite need to be separate commands. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Richard Gitschlag (strata_ran...@hotmail.com) wrote: And similar to you, one thing *I* don't get is why Export and Overwrite need to be separate commands. Because without this distinction you'd accidentially overwrite your precious orignal file after accidentially doing an Export instead of an Export To. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Sorry, I didn't notice the File Overwrite filename menu option. Perhaps a keyboard shortcut for the same would be nice. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
Yes, you can add such a shortcut, please go to: Edit / Keyboard shortcuts ... There you see the entry File ... Overwrite: Disabled Just change that to a shortcut you like. Cheers Karl-Heinz On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 10:28:00 +0530 Ramkumar Ramachandra artag...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry, I didn't notice the File Overwrite filename menu option. Perhaps a keyboard shortcut for the same would be nice. -- ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Quick-edit workflow
On 31 October 2013 05:36, Karl-Heinz Zimmer khzim...@posteo.de wrote: Yes, you can add such a shortcut, please go to: Edit / Keyboard shortcuts ... Just a somewhat unrelated notice - as I consider this one of GIMP's most important features: in GIMP you don't have to go to Edit-Preferences-Interface-Edit Keyboard Shortcuts, navigate in a separate structure to your feature, and then pick a keyboard shortcut. That is there, and works - but what is cool is the Dynamic Keyboard Shortcuts feature - enable it once in edit-preferences-interfaces - and never step out of your workflow to assign a shortcut again: Just pick a shortcut when you are about to use a feature, on the very same menu you use all the time. (it doesn't warn you if you overwrite a shortcut - but then, you can simply restore any accidentaly changed shortcut just as easily) js -- ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
