Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Liam R E Quin]

On Fri, 2012-06-01 at 11:08 -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:
[...]
> > Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
> > confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
> > File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.
> 
> There shouldn't be too much confusion.

Actually I meant File->New and File->Create but got confused :)


-- 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Kevin Cozens]

On 12-06-01 12:52 PM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

Only the correct name for a sub-menu is under question IMHO.

Both *Acquire* and *Import *don't convey *New.*
I second *New From *as suggested by Gez.


GIMP could try and start a new trend but I think that most of its users 
(even the ones that are casual users of GIMP) would recognize the Acquire 
menu as it is used in other programs to get images from the external sources 
I mentioned in a previous email.



With the removal of most create-scripts in 2.10 as Alexandre said,
*Create*need/may not exist anymore.


A lot of the scripts located under Create would not be missed by many. The 
most useful "Create" entry (or the one people get pointed to often when 
asked how to make scripts along a curve) Text Circle. Not sure where it 
would wind up if there was no Create any more unless it was moved to a "New 
From" menu with Screenshot and Scanner but it could make that sub-menu messy 
unless the script based "New From" entries had a separator line before the 
script based entries.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Srihari Sriraman]

>
> What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot,
> external web page, camera, or scanner.


This is an observation I think most of us have made.
Only the correct name for a sub-menu is under question IMHO.

Both *Acquire* and *Import *don't convey *New.*
I second *New From *as suggested by Gez.

With the removal of most create-scripts in 2.10 as Alexandre said,
*Create*need/may not exist anymore.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Kevin Cozens  wrote:

> On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:
>
>> What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now)
>> but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to
>>   Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page
>>
> [snip]
>
>  Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
>> confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
>> File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.
>>
>
> There shouldn't be too much confusion. File->Open should be for opening a
> file available locally to the computer (on the harddrive, memory stick, or
> network drive). File->Create is usedh b to create a new image (by running a
> plug-in) after setting some parameters.
>
> What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot,
> external web page, camera, or scanner. These options are most commonly
> found in programs under an File->Acquire menu entry.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that
> distract
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
>| powerful!"
> #include  | --Chris Hardwick
>
> __**_
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> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
> https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-**developer-list
>



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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Kevin Cozens]

On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now)
but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to
   Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page

[snip]

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.


There shouldn't be too much confusion. File->Open should be for opening a 
file available locally to the computer (on the harddrive, memory stick, or 
network drive). File->Create is usedh b to create a new image (by running a 
plug-in) after setting some parameters.


What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot, external 
web page, camera, or scanner. These options are most commonly found in 
programs under an File->Acquire menu entry.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Christopher Curtis]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin  wrote:

> What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now)
> but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to
>

We had a similar discussion back in August 2010.

VLC uses a tabbed interface for "Open" (
http://www.gnu.org/fry/happy-birthday-to-gnu-sfd-vlc.html) and while it
works, I'm not sure it would be simplifying.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:07 AM, peter sikking  wrote:

>
is the root of all this evil for Laim that Create does not
> express New file enough?


For me, the problem is that "Create > Screenshot" and "Create > From
Clipboard" make no sense.  It is not that "Create" doesn't express "New",
it's that "Create" expresses an action that is going to start with Nothing
and then Invent Something.  "Paste" and "Scan" do not fit this role.

My suggestion from back then still seems reasonable to me:

File -v-
 New ->
   From Template...   [Ctrl+N]
   From Clipboard  [Shift+Ctrl+V]
   Scanned Image...
   Screenshot...
 Create ->
   Buttons ->
   [etc]

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[peter sikking]

> El 31/05/12 04:31, peter sikking escribió:
>> we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't half 
>> bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a submenu).
> What about "File > New from... > Submenu"


well, the ellipsis is forbidden for a menu item that just shows
a sub menu (it is the law, and they are right, I say).

then this has to be looked at always with the submenu next to it:

> from clipboard
> from webpage
> screenshot
> xsane device dialog
> xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
> xsane v4l:'dev'video0

you see that the from is in the submenu to have flexibility
whether something is created from a resource that is not
an image file (clipboard, webpage) or by initiating a capture
(screenshot, scan).

a more correct submenu would be:

from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
scan--xsane device dialog
scan--xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
scan--xsane v4l:'dev'video0

(the ‘--’ being an am dash, but this is monospace email.

but this discussion fragmentation takes the attention from
another point Liam made:

> Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
> confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
> File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

ah, the difference between:
file->create->from webpage and File->Open Location

same kind of confusion, no> between an open (location) from
an URI which opens/imports image files, and a new file with
a rendering (from webpage, a non image file).

is the root of all this evil for Laim that Create does not
express New file enough?

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:
> How about:
>
> Create
>   Buttons
>   Logos
>   Pattern

I just want to note that most of those scripts will be gone in 2.10.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Guillermo Espertino (Gez)]

El 31/05/12 04:31, peter sikking escribió:
we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't 
half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a 
submenu).

What about "File > New from... > Submenu"

Gez
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[peter sikking]

Srihari Sriraman wrote:

> How about:
> 
> Import from
>   URI
>   clipboard
>   webpage
>   xsane device dialog
>   xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
>   xsane v4l:'dev'video0
> 
> and 
> 
> Create
>   Buttons
>   Logos
>   Pattern

the word Import is, again, related to Open, and that is exactly
not how it works (for users, mind).

so this should not be communicated.

always, always, always the word New needs to be there,
or to be implied (like it is with Create).

> File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.
> 
> it is related to File->New.
> 
> it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set,
> and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file)
> in the first layer.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Srihari Sriraman]

How about:

*Import from*
  URI
  clipboard
  webpage
  xsane device dialog
  xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
  xsane v4l:'dev'video0

and

*Create*
  Buttons
  Logos
  Pattern

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:01 PM, peter sikking  wrote:

> Liam R E Quin wrote:
>
> > Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
> > confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
> > File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.
>
> File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.
>
> it is related to File->New.
>
> it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set,
> and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file)
> in the first layer.
>
> I maintain it is very important to have a direct menu
> item to do:
>
> > File->Create
> > from clipboard
> > from webpage
> > screenshot
> > xsane device dialog
> > xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
> > xsane v4l:'dev'video0
>
> with shortcuts (for the stable items I guess) being assignable
> and no penalty of dialogs (if possible).
>
> we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved,
> so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it
> New > (with a submenu).
>
>--ps
>
>founder + principal interaction architect
>man + machine interface works
>
>http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture
>
>
>
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  *
*Srihari Sriraman
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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[peter sikking]

Liam R E Quin wrote:

> Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
> confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
> File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.

it is related to File->New.

it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set,
and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file)
in the first layer.

I maintain it is very important to have a direct menu
item to do:

> File->Create
> from clipboard
> from webpage
> screenshot
> xsane device dialog
> xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
> xsane v4l:'dev'video0

with shortcuts (for the stable items I guess) being assignable
and no penalty of dialogs (if possible).

we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved,
so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it
New > (with a submenu).

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Srihari Sriraman]

>
> But it still could -
> the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a
> separate menu item.


You mean bringing up the open dialog with 'as layers' checked with a
different shortcut?
It seems unorthodox, but maybe worth a try.

 So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???


I don't seem to have the Create>From Webpage. Its a plug-in?
File->Create makes sense for Buttons and Logos, but not for URI, clipboard,
screenshot, scan etc.
Can these be united in one category for the menu?

But all I really care about is having
> something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what
> things do


I can relate to this. Perhaps you should use Tito ;)

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Liam R E Quin  wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:01 +0530, Srihari Sriraman wrote:
> > IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion.
>
> You're probably right, the idea is try to simplify.
>
> > Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario.
>
> Yes, I use it a lot. Not suggesting removing it, only moving it, as it's
> really an option on file->open. Which should be file->import:
> compromising the metaphor for ease of use indicates the metaphor isn't
> right.
>
> > Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the
> > Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.
> Actually I'd never noticed it had that shortcut. But it still could -
> the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a
> separate menu item.
>
> > I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with
> > Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is
> > quite clear.
>
> So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???
>
> >
> > Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard,
> > Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create'
> > something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos,
> etc].
>
> I have under File->Create
> from clipboard
> from webpage
> screenshot
> xsane device dialog
> xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
> xsane v4l:'dev'video0
>
> Sometimes I get epson expression 1000 XL in there too.
>
> In every other program scanning is under file->acquire, which is badly
> named but at least predictable. But all I really care about is having
> something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what
> things do. Having file->open and fil->create is confusing and so is
> having both open location and open webpage.
>
> So I thought I'd try & start a conversation about it :)
>
> Liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
> Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
>
>


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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Liam R E Quin]

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:01 +0530, Srihari Sriraman wrote:
> IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion.

You're probably right, the idea is try to simplify.

> Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario.

Yes, I use it a lot. Not suggesting removing it, only moving it, as it's
really an option on file->open. Which should be file->import:
compromising the metaphor for ease of use indicates the metaphor isn't
right.

> Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the
> Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.
Actually I'd never noticed it had that shortcut. But it still could -
the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a
separate menu item.

> I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with
> Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is
> quite clear.

So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???

> 
> Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard,
> Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create'
> something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos, etc].

I have under File->Create
from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

Sometimes I get epson expression 1000 XL in there too.

In every other program scanning is under file->acquire, which is badly
named but at least predictable. But all I really care about is having
something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what
things do. Having file->open and fil->create is confusing and so is
having both open location and open webpage.

So I thought I'd try & start a conversation about it :)

Liam

-- 
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Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Srihari Sriraman]

IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion.
Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario.
Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the
Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.

I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with
Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is
quite clear.

Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard,
Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create'
something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos, etc].



On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Liam R E Quin  wrote:

> What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now)
> but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to
>  Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page
> maybe with a checkbox, "open as layers inside the active image" instead
> of file->open as layers.
>
> Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
> confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
> File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.
>
> Liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
> Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
>
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[Gimp-developer] file open and create

[Liam R E Quin]

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now)
but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to
  Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page
maybe with a checkbox, "open as layers inside the active image" instead
of file->open as layers.

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create
confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from
File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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