Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[C R via gimp-developer-list]

GIMP is better than Photoshop for my purposes. No, it's not trying to copy
(which I think is the actual problem most people have with GIMP), and
therefore does some things differently as a result, and the tools are not a
one-to-one match (thankfully).
It's also free, completely cross-platform, and does not have nearly the
bloat that Photoshop has.
It's also faster on older hardware than Photoshop is with a tablet, but
maybe that's because GIMP doesn't require other bloated unfortunate
operating systems like windows and MacOS to run, both of which have their
own truly unfortunate set of restrictions.

What you want for illustration work is Krita. You should definitey look
more into it - It's a powerhouse of awesome features, which Photoshop users
would envy if they knew about them. Sure, you will have to get used to an
illustration workflow, but that's another reason why GIMP is seen as better
for photoediting tasks - That's really where it shines.

Disclaimer: I'm a career graphics and product designer, and after using
Photoshop from ver 2.5 (1992) all the way up to CS3, I decided to see how
much of my workflow I could switch to GIMP (mainly because of problems with
Windows and MacOS). After some initial growing pains, and a lot of GIMP UI
improvement over the years, I've been quite happily using GIMP every day
for work on cheap and light-weight laptops that barely run Windows 10
(forget about also running Photoshop).  GNU/Linux + GIMP allows me to do
this. (and Blender, Inkscape, Krita, etc.)

It seems people have no patience to learn new things or actually get
involved in a development community as the one that revolves around GIMP,
but these folks usually miss the point, and often the benefits of community
developed software.

-C

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:48 AM Ken Moffat via gimp-developer-list <
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 09, 2019 at 05:51:00AM +, Ryan Stark via
> gimp-developer-list wrote:
> > One question to ask is why are Procreate and Photoshop so popular with
> > digital painters and Photoshop wasn't even originally designed for this?
> > One major reason for this is the way the internal textures to the brushes
> > are handled. Photoshop isn't even super fast for painting but this
> feature
> > gives lovely brush textures. Clip Paint Studio does this but it does it
> in
> > a crap way.
> >
> I will note in passing that top-posting on developer mailing lists
> is generally regarded as bad form (on user lists it seems to be less
> unacceptable, although still a PITA), and even gmail can be beaten
> into shape for that.  But these 'digital painters' will need to
> speak up for themselves on either the -dev or -user lists before
> anyone will pay attention.
>
> Meanwhile, the gimp developers have made vast progress in the last
> year, for which I thank them (even if I don't agree with all their
> decisions re importing raw photos ;) : there are few developers, and
> they do not have infinite time to work on whatever interests them.
> I will suggest that this thread is a distraction to them and will go
> nowhere unless you are either willing to provide code, or to find
> someone whom you can sponsor to produce the code.
>
> I hope I will speak for most people here when I say that I don't use
> Photoshop and I had never heard of Procreate until you mentioned it.
> As a user of libre software, to me they appear to be irrelevant.
>
> ĸen
> --
> Take three of these a minute for four minutes.  Don't take with
> alcohol or you'll grow an extra head.
>   -- The Doctor
> ___
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
> List membership:
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

ср, 9 янв. 2019 г., 7:24 Ryan Stark efflux...@googlemail.com:

> Ardour is poor and there were lots of DAWs being developed on Linux
> (probably still are but I don't look into it any more).
>

How many is "lots"? 10? 20? 30? :)))

Ardour (and one or two its dead forks), Ecasound, Protux/Traverso. That is
pretty much it.

Paul at Ardour is arrogant.
>

You keep making these unsubstantiated claims, but just like the original
topicstarter, you'll find it to be a hard sell on this list.

It doesn't matter if he is funded. That doesn't make Ardour a success in
> terms of how it works.
>

Since he is funded by the community, it means Ardour is a success for its
user base. And most of those people are on Windows, where they have a much
wider choice of applications to run.

If you install Reaper on Linux there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever
> and Reaper can be run free or a small licence charge. Ardour tried to be
> Protools. This is what not to do if you develop open source software. It
> has to have something unique about it.
>

I guess you didn't pay much attention then. Back when Ardour started,
unlimited tracks and buses, as well as anything-to-anything routing were
unheard of.

They can rightly claim that they have something better than what commercial
> software provides.
>

Pretty much every Reddit thread on GIMP has people who say GIMP is better
for them. They might have funny reasons to say so, but it's their opinion.
You seem to be pretending that these people don't exist. I suggest you
reconsider your existential statement.

If you look at what they are doing in the Mypaint brush engine. It is also
> unique. The new features in the brush engine can create results that are
> amazing and unlike any other program yet the basic concept is quite simple.
>

Every unique feature of MyPaint's brush engine stops being unique for just
MyPaint the moment it's out. Would you hazard a guess why? (Hint: see my
previous email)

However, the brush engine is painfully slow so what is the point.
>

You still haven't given us any details about that.

So there will never be a method to simply draw individual straight lines on
> the canvas without unnecessary tools appearing on the canvas?
>

I don't know how you arrive to these funny conclusions.

I'm afraid, unless you begin substantiating any of your claims, I will have
to bow out of this conversation. You are welcome to post your bug reports
to the tracker.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Simon Budig]

Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list (gimp-developer-list@gnome.org) wrote:
> Ardour is poor and there were lots of DAWs being developed on Linux
> (probably still are but I don't look into it any more). Paul at Ardour is
> arrogant. It doesn't matter if he is funded.

Since on these issues you apparently are the only arbiter on what
determines the success (or not) of software I am going to stop
considering your viewpoint, since something like an productive exchange
seems impossible.

I strongly suspect that we're not going to resolve your issues here and
I doubt that your style of arguing will help in interesting developers
in your issues. Speaking for me as a long-term-although-not-as-active-as-i-
would-like-developer of GIMP I can attest that I certainly have no
interest in pursuing this discussion.

Feel free to stick to your opinion, feel free to put me in your
"arrogant" camp and lets hope that at some point you'll succeed in
finding your software ecosystem adjusted to your needs.

Have a good time.
Simon

-- 
  si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ken Moffat via gimp-developer-list]

On Wed, Jan 09, 2019 at 05:51:00AM +, Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list 
wrote:
> One question to ask is why are Procreate and Photoshop so popular with
> digital painters and Photoshop wasn't even originally designed for this?
> One major reason for this is the way the internal textures to the brushes
> are handled. Photoshop isn't even super fast for painting but this feature
> gives lovely brush textures. Clip Paint Studio does this but it does it in
> a crap way.
> 
I will note in passing that top-posting on developer mailing lists
is generally regarded as bad form (on user lists it seems to be less
unacceptable, although still a PITA), and even gmail can be beaten
into shape for that.  But these 'digital painters' will need to
speak up for themselves on either the -dev or -user lists before
anyone will pay attention.

Meanwhile, the gimp developers have made vast progress in the last
year, for which I thank them (even if I don't agree with all their
decisions re importing raw photos ;) : there are few developers, and
they do not have infinite time to work on whatever interests them.
I will suggest that this thread is a distraction to them and will go
nowhere unless you are either willing to provide code, or to find
someone whom you can sponsor to produce the code.

I hope I will speak for most people here when I say that I don't use
Photoshop and I had never heard of Procreate until you mentioned it.
As a user of libre software, to me they appear to be irrelevant.

ĸen
-- 
Take three of these a minute for four minutes.  Don't take with
alcohol or you'll grow an extra head.
  -- The Doctor
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

One question to ask is why are Procreate and Photoshop so popular with
digital painters and Photoshop wasn't even originally designed for this?
One major reason for this is the way the internal textures to the brushes
are handled. Photoshop isn't even super fast for painting but this feature
gives lovely brush textures. Clip Paint Studio does this but it does it in
a crap way.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 05:40, Ryan Stark  wrote:

> Lets look at this simple constrain to straight line method. I don't know
> of other programs which allow pressure sensitivity to work with that
> although maybe some do. That might make the tool unique.
>
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 05:21, Ryan Stark  wrote:
>
>> Ardour is poor and there were lots of DAWs being developed on Linux
>> (probably still are but I don't look into it any more). Paul at Ardour is
>> arrogant. It doesn't matter if he is funded. That doesn't make Ardour a
>> success in terms of how it works. If you install Reaper on Linux there is
>> absolutely no comparison whatsoever and Reaper can be run free or a small
>> licence charge. Ardour tried to be Protools. This is what not to do if you
>> develop open source software. It has to have something unique about it.
>> Blender has a lot of unique features. Another superb and unique open source
>> program is Wings 3D. Simple but brilliantly designed. I love that program
>> even although I don't use it much. This is what makes people have a passion
>> about the software which is absolutely needed for open source. They can
>> rightly claim that they have something better than what commercial software
>> provides.
>>
>> If you look at what they are doing in the Mypaint brush engine. It is
>> also unique. The new features in the brush engine can create results that
>> are amazing and unlike any other program yet the basic concept is quite
>> simple.
>>
>> Gimp certainly is trying to be a kind of Photoshop. It doesn't have
>> enough unique features about it. One very cool absolutely unique feature
>> that everybody actually ignores is that all the parameters can be
>> controlled via MIDI. This beats any other method out there for hardware
>> controlling even image editing software, in particular if you are using it
>> for painting. However, the brush engine is painfully slow so what is the
>> point.
>>
>> So there will never be a method to simply draw individual straight lines
>> on the canvas without unnecessary tools appearing on the canvas? The bezier
>> tool is for when you want to do precise things. Drawing simple lines is a
>> different idea. This is why most other programs follow the simple command
>> to constrain to a straight line.
>>
>> On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 03:18, Alexandre Prokoudine <
>> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:42 AM Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>> You know, I started having my suspicions while reading your first
>>> email where you complained that GIMP tries to do everything, then
>>> proceeded complaining it is focused on photo editing rather than doing
>>> other things (mutually exclusive statements).
>>>
>>> > Mypaint is different from Gimp because obviously the brush engine is
>>> unique
>>>
>>> It's not unique. Several applications now use MyPaint's brush engine,
>>> including GIMP. And that isn't even the only "difference" between
>>> MyPaint and GIMP. They are conceptually different applications. Surely
>>> I don't need to tell you about things like the infinite canvas?
>>>
>>> > but if Gimp was better Krita would not be needed in my opinion.
>>>
>>> People have always scratched their itches. What's the shocking news?
>>>
>>> > This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux. Several competing
>>> projects.
>>>
>>> There is virtually zero competition among free/libre DAWs on Linux,
>>> because there is just one functional DAW, which is Ardour.
>>>
>>> Everything else with the sole exception for Qtractor does MIDI
>>> sequencing and some score editing, with overly simplistic audio
>>> editing, because everything else is stuck in the early 2000s when the
>>> Linux crowd thought that separating MIDI from audio was the real deal,
>>> and JACK would rule them all (it didn't).
>>>
>>> Paul recognized the problem relatively early on, that's why MIDI
>>> started being worked on around 2007.
>>>
>>> If you think there is any competition, try recording multiple audio
>>> inputs into MusE or Rosegarden using external control surfaces, with
>>> VCA for track groups, do quick fades and crossfades, then tell me how
>>> it worked for you.
>>>
>>> > Ardour should have been the open source DAW but will never ever
>>> compete now partly due to the arrogant style of development ethos.
>>>
>>> What are you even talking about? :)))
>>>
>>> > Open source audio is now completely dead because vastly superior
>>> commercial apps moved onto Linux.
>>> > There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete
>>> with
>>> > running for example Reaper 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

Lets look at this simple constrain to straight line method. I don't know of
other programs which allow pressure sensitivity to work with that although
maybe some do. That might make the tool unique.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 05:21, Ryan Stark  wrote:

> Ardour is poor and there were lots of DAWs being developed on Linux
> (probably still are but I don't look into it any more). Paul at Ardour is
> arrogant. It doesn't matter if he is funded. That doesn't make Ardour a
> success in terms of how it works. If you install Reaper on Linux there is
> absolutely no comparison whatsoever and Reaper can be run free or a small
> licence charge. Ardour tried to be Protools. This is what not to do if you
> develop open source software. It has to have something unique about it.
> Blender has a lot of unique features. Another superb and unique open source
> program is Wings 3D. Simple but brilliantly designed. I love that program
> even although I don't use it much. This is what makes people have a passion
> about the software which is absolutely needed for open source. They can
> rightly claim that they have something better than what commercial software
> provides.
>
> If you look at what they are doing in the Mypaint brush engine. It is also
> unique. The new features in the brush engine can create results that are
> amazing and unlike any other program yet the basic concept is quite simple.
>
> Gimp certainly is trying to be a kind of Photoshop. It doesn't have enough
> unique features about it. One very cool absolutely unique feature that
> everybody actually ignores is that all the parameters can be controlled via
> MIDI. This beats any other method out there for hardware controlling even
> image editing software, in particular if you are using it for painting.
> However, the brush engine is painfully slow so what is the point.
>
> So there will never be a method to simply draw individual straight lines
> on the canvas without unnecessary tools appearing on the canvas? The bezier
> tool is for when you want to do precise things. Drawing simple lines is a
> different idea. This is why most other programs follow the simple command
> to constrain to a straight line.
>
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 03:18, Alexandre Prokoudine <
> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:42 AM Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list wrote:
>> >
>>
>> You know, I started having my suspicions while reading your first
>> email where you complained that GIMP tries to do everything, then
>> proceeded complaining it is focused on photo editing rather than doing
>> other things (mutually exclusive statements).
>>
>> > Mypaint is different from Gimp because obviously the brush engine is
>> unique
>>
>> It's not unique. Several applications now use MyPaint's brush engine,
>> including GIMP. And that isn't even the only "difference" between
>> MyPaint and GIMP. They are conceptually different applications. Surely
>> I don't need to tell you about things like the infinite canvas?
>>
>> > but if Gimp was better Krita would not be needed in my opinion.
>>
>> People have always scratched their itches. What's the shocking news?
>>
>> > This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux. Several competing
>> projects.
>>
>> There is virtually zero competition among free/libre DAWs on Linux,
>> because there is just one functional DAW, which is Ardour.
>>
>> Everything else with the sole exception for Qtractor does MIDI
>> sequencing and some score editing, with overly simplistic audio
>> editing, because everything else is stuck in the early 2000s when the
>> Linux crowd thought that separating MIDI from audio was the real deal,
>> and JACK would rule them all (it didn't).
>>
>> Paul recognized the problem relatively early on, that's why MIDI
>> started being worked on around 2007.
>>
>> If you think there is any competition, try recording multiple audio
>> inputs into MusE or Rosegarden using external control surfaces, with
>> VCA for track groups, do quick fades and crossfades, then tell me how
>> it worked for you.
>>
>> > Ardour should have been the open source DAW but will never ever compete
>> now partly due to the arrogant style of development ethos.
>>
>> What are you even talking about? :)))
>>
>> > Open source audio is now completely dead because vastly superior
>> commercial apps moved onto Linux.
>> > There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete
>> with
>> > running for example Reaper on Linux.
>>
>> Open source audio is so dead that Paul's development efforts are fully
>> funded every month long before the month is over, and he gives the
>> spare funds to other contributors. Robin is paid by Harrison to work
>> on both Mixbus and Ardour. And original MIxbus team contribute to
>> Ardour on regular basis. That's how dead it is.
>>
>> > Gimp tries to be Photoshop
>>
>> It does not. I don't know where you are getting all these funny ideas
>> from :)
>>
>> > Saying that a bezier tool is somehow a step further 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

Ardour is poor and there were lots of DAWs being developed on Linux
(probably still are but I don't look into it any more). Paul at Ardour is
arrogant. It doesn't matter if he is funded. That doesn't make Ardour a
success in terms of how it works. If you install Reaper on Linux there is
absolutely no comparison whatsoever and Reaper can be run free or a small
licence charge. Ardour tried to be Protools. This is what not to do if you
develop open source software. It has to have something unique about it.
Blender has a lot of unique features. Another superb and unique open source
program is Wings 3D. Simple but brilliantly designed. I love that program
even although I don't use it much. This is what makes people have a passion
about the software which is absolutely needed for open source. They can
rightly claim that they have something better than what commercial software
provides.

If you look at what they are doing in the Mypaint brush engine. It is also
unique. The new features in the brush engine can create results that are
amazing and unlike any other program yet the basic concept is quite simple.

Gimp certainly is trying to be a kind of Photoshop. It doesn't have enough
unique features about it. One very cool absolutely unique feature that
everybody actually ignores is that all the parameters can be controlled via
MIDI. This beats any other method out there for hardware controlling even
image editing software, in particular if you are using it for painting.
However, the brush engine is painfully slow so what is the point.

So there will never be a method to simply draw individual straight lines on
the canvas without unnecessary tools appearing on the canvas? The bezier
tool is for when you want to do precise things. Drawing simple lines is a
different idea. This is why most other programs follow the simple command
to constrain to a straight line.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 03:18, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:42 AM Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list wrote:
> >
>
> You know, I started having my suspicions while reading your first
> email where you complained that GIMP tries to do everything, then
> proceeded complaining it is focused on photo editing rather than doing
> other things (mutually exclusive statements).
>
> > Mypaint is different from Gimp because obviously the brush engine is
> unique
>
> It's not unique. Several applications now use MyPaint's brush engine,
> including GIMP. And that isn't even the only "difference" between
> MyPaint and GIMP. They are conceptually different applications. Surely
> I don't need to tell you about things like the infinite canvas?
>
> > but if Gimp was better Krita would not be needed in my opinion.
>
> People have always scratched their itches. What's the shocking news?
>
> > This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux. Several competing
> projects.
>
> There is virtually zero competition among free/libre DAWs on Linux,
> because there is just one functional DAW, which is Ardour.
>
> Everything else with the sole exception for Qtractor does MIDI
> sequencing and some score editing, with overly simplistic audio
> editing, because everything else is stuck in the early 2000s when the
> Linux crowd thought that separating MIDI from audio was the real deal,
> and JACK would rule them all (it didn't).
>
> Paul recognized the problem relatively early on, that's why MIDI
> started being worked on around 2007.
>
> If you think there is any competition, try recording multiple audio
> inputs into MusE or Rosegarden using external control surfaces, with
> VCA for track groups, do quick fades and crossfades, then tell me how
> it worked for you.
>
> > Ardour should have been the open source DAW but will never ever compete
> now partly due to the arrogant style of development ethos.
>
> What are you even talking about? :)))
>
> > Open source audio is now completely dead because vastly superior
> commercial apps moved onto Linux.
> > There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete with
> > running for example Reaper on Linux.
>
> Open source audio is so dead that Paul's development efforts are fully
> funded every month long before the month is over, and he gives the
> spare funds to other contributors. Robin is paid by Harrison to work
> on both Mixbus and Ardour. And original MIxbus team contribute to
> Ardour on regular basis. That's how dead it is.
>
> > Gimp tries to be Photoshop
>
> It does not. I don't know where you are getting all these funny ideas from
> :)
>
> > Saying that a bezier tool is somehow a step further than a simple tool to
> > draw straight lines is the sort of crazy idea that is exactly the problem
> > with Gimp. In Photoshop and other apps you click a key command and draw a
> > single line or lots of lines anywhere without even seeing any tool on the
> > canvas.
>
> You mean the latest Photoshop CC still has no clue how to show people
> what they are drawing on the 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:42 AM Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list wrote:
>

You know, I started having my suspicions while reading your first
email where you complained that GIMP tries to do everything, then
proceeded complaining it is focused on photo editing rather than doing
other things (mutually exclusive statements).

> Mypaint is different from Gimp because obviously the brush engine is unique

It's not unique. Several applications now use MyPaint's brush engine,
including GIMP. And that isn't even the only "difference" between
MyPaint and GIMP. They are conceptually different applications. Surely
I don't need to tell you about things like the infinite canvas?

> but if Gimp was better Krita would not be needed in my opinion.

People have always scratched their itches. What's the shocking news?

> This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux. Several competing projects.

There is virtually zero competition among free/libre DAWs on Linux,
because there is just one functional DAW, which is Ardour.

Everything else with the sole exception for Qtractor does MIDI
sequencing and some score editing, with overly simplistic audio
editing, because everything else is stuck in the early 2000s when the
Linux crowd thought that separating MIDI from audio was the real deal,
and JACK would rule them all (it didn't).

Paul recognized the problem relatively early on, that's why MIDI
started being worked on around 2007.

If you think there is any competition, try recording multiple audio
inputs into MusE or Rosegarden using external control surfaces, with
VCA for track groups, do quick fades and crossfades, then tell me how
it worked for you.

> Ardour should have been the open source DAW but will never ever compete now 
> partly due to the arrogant style of development ethos.

What are you even talking about? :)))

> Open source audio is now completely dead because vastly superior commercial 
> apps moved onto Linux.
> There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete with
> running for example Reaper on Linux.

Open source audio is so dead that Paul's development efforts are fully
funded every month long before the month is over, and he gives the
spare funds to other contributors. Robin is paid by Harrison to work
on both Mixbus and Ardour. And original MIxbus team contribute to
Ardour on regular basis. That's how dead it is.

> Gimp tries to be Photoshop

It does not. I don't know where you are getting all these funny ideas from :)

> Saying that a bezier tool is somehow a step further than a simple tool to
> draw straight lines is the sort of crazy idea that is exactly the problem
> with Gimp. In Photoshop and other apps you click a key command and draw a
> single line or lots of lines anywhere without even seeing any tool on the
> canvas.

You mean the latest Photoshop CC still has no clue how to show people
what they are drawing on the canvas? And that's great why, exactly?

> It seems that in Gimp such a simple idea wasn't thought of. The
> shift command for drawing straight lines in Gimp doesn't achieve the same
> very simple task.

Yeah, better drawing tools are definitely in the plans. But If you
want us to show people blank canvas while they draw, then no, not
gonna happen.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

As for the value sliders in Gimp. There was no need to have that dual
slider or that awkward way of having the numerical input above those dual
sliders making selecting these things fiddly. One slider would have
sufficed with key commands to shift it in various increments.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 03:38, Ryan Stark  wrote:

> Ofnuts. Some of the choices on Linux are fine like desktop environments
> but when it comes to the actual programs, having competing programs is
> damaging because there aren't enough developers as it is. If another open
> source 3D app competed with Blender that would draw coders away. Competing
> for business in the commercial world makes sense. For open source software,
> collaboration should be the key. Mypaint is different from Gimp because
> obviously the brush engine is unique but if Gimp was better Krita would not
> be needed in my opinion. This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux.
> Several competing projects. Developers didn't do a good job of designing
> the apps and no amount of user suggestions were listened to. Ardour should
> have been the open source DAW but will never ever compete now partly due to
> the arrogant style of development ethos. Open source audio is now
> completely dead because vastly superior commercial apps moved onto Linux.
> There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete with
> running for example Reaper on Linux.
>
> There are only two seriously viable 2D graphics apps now on Linux in my
> opinion. Mypaint and Inkscape because they are completely different from
> other commercial software. Gimp tries to be Photoshop but is sadly failing
> to achieve this. I hope things can be improved in Gimp but it needs to
> become more unique.
>
> As for doing artwork in Gimp compared to another programs, lets say Clip
> Paint Studio or even Photoshop. You might be able to find some decent Gimp
> work but it won't match that done in these other apps mainly because in
> Gimp it would take you multiple times longer and hence not very creatively
> inspiring. Clip Paint Studio and Photoshop have their own problems so I'm
> no huge fan of either but they are usable. Of all the apps I have used for
> any kind of drawing or painting work, there are three really good ones
> because the design is generally good even if simple. Those are Mypaint,
> Mischief and Procreate on an iPad. Procreate obviously has quite a few
> tools now and has a powerful and fast brush engine but workflow has been
> kept simple which is a key component of the design. Mypaint has a unique
> brush engine and the new features being added are really great. Mischief is
> another unique app in that it is vector. It has the most beautiful and
> smooth pen feel of any program I ever used. Sadly development was
> discontinued. Other programs are like working in a UI traffic jam and this
> is not because many of them aren't centred around drawing or painting, it
> is because they are just poorly designed.
>
> Saying that a bezier tool is somehow a step further than a simple tool to
> draw straight lines is the sort of crazy idea that is exactly the problem
> with Gimp. In Photoshop and other apps you click a key command and draw a
> single line or lots of lines anywhere without even seeing any tool on the
> canvas. It seems that in Gimp such a simple idea wasn't thought of. The
> shift command for drawing straight lines in Gimp doesn't achieve the same
> very simple task.
>
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 00:43, Simon Budig  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan.
>>
>> Your collection of pet peeves is impressive. Yet I believe that your
>> generalization that they must affect everybody is blown way out of
>> proportion.
>>
>> Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list (gimp-developer-list@gnome.org) wrote:
>> > So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the
>> > guides. There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in
>> > operation yet no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.
>>
>> Why not go a step further? Have e.g. bezier shaped guides you could
>> manipulate freely? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
>>
>> Wait, thats already there. Never mind. What was your point again?
>>
>> > Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute
>> snail's
>> > pace. Why? And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc
>> > still included in Gimp when there are other better and free ones
>> available?
>> > This makes Gimp look very poor to any new user.
>>
>> Brushes and Patterns may get referenced by user scripts. We consider it
>> a bad thing to break compatibility for no good reason (and "someone
>> might not like this pattern" is not a good reason).
>>
>> Suggestions for new good patterns with a clear and unambigous statement
>> about them being in the public domain are welcome.
>>
>> > The little sliders to
>> > adjust values are not very good and text entry is horrible.
>>
>> Please elaborate.
>>
>> > You can't go
>> > from from single window mode 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

Ofnuts. Some of the choices on Linux are fine like desktop environments but
when it comes to the actual programs, having competing programs is damaging
because there aren't enough developers as it is. If another open source 3D
app competed with Blender that would draw coders away. Competing for
business in the commercial world makes sense. For open source software,
collaboration should be the key. Mypaint is different from Gimp because
obviously the brush engine is unique but if Gimp was better Krita would not
be needed in my opinion. This is how audio programs gotdamaged on Linux.
Several competing projects. Developers didn't do a good job of designing
the apps and no amount of user suggestions were listened to. Ardour should
have been the open source DAW but will never ever compete now partly due to
the arrogant style of development ethos. Open source audio is now
completely dead because vastly superior commercial apps moved onto Linux.
There is absolutely no way now for an open source project to compete with
running for example Reaper on Linux.

There are only two seriously viable 2D graphics apps now on Linux in my
opinion. Mypaint and Inkscape because they are completely different from
other commercial software. Gimp tries to be Photoshop but is sadly failing
to achieve this. I hope things can be improved in Gimp but it needs to
become more unique.

As for doing artwork in Gimp compared to another programs, lets say Clip
Paint Studio or even Photoshop. You might be able to find some decent Gimp
work but it won't match that done in these other apps mainly because in
Gimp it would take you multiple times longer and hence not very creatively
inspiring. Clip Paint Studio and Photoshop have their own problems so I'm
no huge fan of either but they are usable. Of all the apps I have used for
any kind of drawing or painting work, there are three really good ones
because the design is generally good even if simple. Those are Mypaint,
Mischief and Procreate on an iPad. Procreate obviously has quite a few
tools now and has a powerful and fast brush engine but workflow has been
kept simple which is a key component of the design. Mypaint has a unique
brush engine and the new features being added are really great. Mischief is
another unique app in that it is vector. It has the most beautiful and
smooth pen feel of any program I ever used. Sadly development was
discontinued. Other programs are like working in a UI traffic jam and this
is not because many of them aren't centred around drawing or painting, it
is because they are just poorly designed.

Saying that a bezier tool is somehow a step further than a simple tool to
draw straight lines is the sort of crazy idea that is exactly the problem
with Gimp. In Photoshop and other apps you click a key command and draw a
single line or lots of lines anywhere without even seeing any tool on the
canvas. It seems that in Gimp such a simple idea wasn't thought of. The
shift command for drawing straight lines in Gimp doesn't achieve the same
very simple task.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 00:43, Simon Budig  wrote:

> Hi Ryan.
>
> Your collection of pet peeves is impressive. Yet I believe that your
> generalization that they must affect everybody is blown way out of
> proportion.
>
> Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list (gimp-developer-list@gnome.org) wrote:
> > So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the
> > guides. There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in
> > operation yet no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.
>
> Why not go a step further? Have e.g. bezier shaped guides you could
> manipulate freely? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
>
> Wait, thats already there. Never mind. What was your point again?
>
> > Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute snail's
> > pace. Why? And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc
> > still included in Gimp when there are other better and free ones
> available?
> > This makes Gimp look very poor to any new user.
>
> Brushes and Patterns may get referenced by user scripts. We consider it
> a bad thing to break compatibility for no good reason (and "someone
> might not like this pattern" is not a good reason).
>
> Suggestions for new good patterns with a clear and unambigous statement
> about them being in the public domain are welcome.
>
> > The little sliders to
> > adjust values are not very good and text entry is horrible.
>
> Please elaborate.
>
> > You can't go
> > from from single window mode to multiple without your layout being messed
> > up.
>
> Works for me. What window manager do you use?
>
> > Having a UI like this without being able to save your windows layouts
> > is crazy.
>
> My window layout gets remembered. Again: What window manager do you
> use?
>
> > I've encountered many bugs and a few crashes in Gimp 2.10 which
> > never used to happen. For example there is some kind of problem where
> > certain actions with a mouse or pen 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ken Moffat via gimp-developer-list]

On Tue, Jan 08, 2019 at 06:23:27PM +, Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list 
wrote:
> If you aren't a heavy critic of Gimp there is something wrong with you.

Since I no-longer have the mail this was apparently replying to, and
given (from the subject) its apparent personal attack, I regard
this as just another troll, probably politically motivated (for my
definition of political), and if it wasn't for the fact that some
people who I respect for their contributions had already replied, I
would have given the standard "do not feed trolls" reply.

-- 
Take three of these a minute for four minutes.  Don't take with
alcohol or you'll grow an extra head.
  -- The Doctor
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[C R via gimp-developer-list]

My GIMP pet peeves list is much longer than this, but I also see the
tremendous work being done by so very few dedicated individuals, and this
is why I temper my complaints with patience, understanding and gratitude.

It's more helpful for people to be involved with the project, and take time
to get to know what's being worked on, where help is needed, rather than
state everything that's wrong all at once as an overall criticism.

Those after a quick fix should definitely use other software, or fund
development as was suggested. It's probably not reasonable for most
designers to up and learn to code to fix what is broken in GIMP, but
kindness, encouragement, and patience is always appreciated. The more work
you do in the project, the better equipped you become to truly help.

It's community software after all. :)

PS- Inkscape does have diagonal guides as well. I have to say, they mostly
just get in the way. :)

To each their own.

-C



On Wed, 9 Jan 2019, 00:43 Simon Budig  Hi Ryan.
>
> Your collection of pet peeves is impressive. Yet I believe that your
> generalization that they must affect everybody is blown way out of
> proportion.
>
> Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list (gimp-developer-list@gnome.org) wrote:
> > So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the
> > guides. There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in
> > operation yet no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.
>
> Why not go a step further? Have e.g. bezier shaped guides you could
> manipulate freely? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
>
> Wait, thats already there. Never mind. What was your point again?
>
> > Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute snail's
> > pace. Why? And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc
> > still included in Gimp when there are other better and free ones
> available?
> > This makes Gimp look very poor to any new user.
>
> Brushes and Patterns may get referenced by user scripts. We consider it
> a bad thing to break compatibility for no good reason (and "someone
> might not like this pattern" is not a good reason).
>
> Suggestions for new good patterns with a clear and unambigous statement
> about them being in the public domain are welcome.
>
> > The little sliders to
> > adjust values are not very good and text entry is horrible.
>
> Please elaborate.
>
> > You can't go
> > from from single window mode to multiple without your layout being messed
> > up.
>
> Works for me. What window manager do you use?
>
> > Having a UI like this without being able to save your windows layouts
> > is crazy.
>
> My window layout gets remembered. Again: What window manager do you
> use?
>
> > I've encountered many bugs and a few crashes in Gimp 2.10 which
> > never used to happen. For example there is some kind of problem where
> > certain actions with a mouse or pen causes docked tabs to constantly
> break
> > free without reason.
>
> Gimp 2.10 is pretty much rock solid for me. No idea what you're witnessing.
>
> > The problem is that some people may be prepared for a few problems,
> report
> > a few bugs etc but then it just gets tedious and they move to another
> app.
> > I believe many will do this with Gimp.
> > As for any contribution I could make, that would only be with using Gimp
> as
> > a painting app and the brushes because I've been through the brush
> engines
> > of just about every app out there. This is why I like Mypaint and the new
> > features. However, every time I try to use Gimp I end up in other
> programs,
> > including Clip Paint Studio which I run in Wine. I would much rather use
> > Gimp.
>
> But why don't you use the tool that works best for you? Why do you
> insist on using Gimp if it is as bad as you claim it to be?
>
> If Clip Paint Studio does everything you need, why switch?
>
> And I do mean this: I stopped evangelizing in favor of Gimp ages ago. If
> someone is happy with a tool there is nothing to gain to convince them
> to use a different tool, it always results in frustration about the fact
> that GIMP is different from the other tool.
>
> And it also leads to a lot of frustration on the developer side, because
> we then do get the pressure to align GIMP with the behaviour of the
> random other tool, because that is the one true way (tm) on how certain
> workflows have to work.
>
> > What are the solutions to these problems? I don't really know but i think
> > once some bad design decisions are made with an app it is very hard to
> fix
> > things. The developers or at least some developer who has a vision on how
> > to improve things is the most crucial component. I think the problem
> with a
> > lot of software is that the developers do not use the software
> extensively
> > or study how other programs do things.
>
> That is true and this matches our experience. We have a ton of bad
> decisions in the GIMP codebase (Images are always 8-bit RGB, right?) and
> their legacy haunts us to this very day, 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Simon Budig]

Hi Ryan.

Your collection of pet peeves is impressive. Yet I believe that your
generalization that they must affect everybody is blown way out of
proportion.

Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list (gimp-developer-list@gnome.org) wrote:
> So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the
> guides. There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in
> operation yet no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.

Why not go a step further? Have e.g. bezier shaped guides you could
manipulate freely? Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Wait, thats already there. Never mind. What was your point again?

> Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute snail's
> pace. Why? And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc
> still included in Gimp when there are other better and free ones available?
> This makes Gimp look very poor to any new user.

Brushes and Patterns may get referenced by user scripts. We consider it
a bad thing to break compatibility for no good reason (and "someone
might not like this pattern" is not a good reason).

Suggestions for new good patterns with a clear and unambigous statement
about them being in the public domain are welcome.

> The little sliders to
> adjust values are not very good and text entry is horrible.

Please elaborate.

> You can't go
> from from single window mode to multiple without your layout being messed
> up.

Works for me. What window manager do you use?

> Having a UI like this without being able to save your windows layouts
> is crazy.

My window layout gets remembered. Again: What window manager do you
use?

> I've encountered many bugs and a few crashes in Gimp 2.10 which
> never used to happen. For example there is some kind of problem where
> certain actions with a mouse or pen causes docked tabs to constantly break
> free without reason.

Gimp 2.10 is pretty much rock solid for me. No idea what you're witnessing.

> The problem is that some people may be prepared for a few problems, report
> a few bugs etc but then it just gets tedious and they move to another app.
> I believe many will do this with Gimp.
> As for any contribution I could make, that would only be with using Gimp as
> a painting app and the brushes because I've been through the brush engines
> of just about every app out there. This is why I like Mypaint and the new
> features. However, every time I try to use Gimp I end up in other programs,
> including Clip Paint Studio which I run in Wine. I would much rather use
> Gimp.

But why don't you use the tool that works best for you? Why do you
insist on using Gimp if it is as bad as you claim it to be?

If Clip Paint Studio does everything you need, why switch?

And I do mean this: I stopped evangelizing in favor of Gimp ages ago. If
someone is happy with a tool there is nothing to gain to convince them
to use a different tool, it always results in frustration about the fact
that GIMP is different from the other tool.

And it also leads to a lot of frustration on the developer side, because
we then do get the pressure to align GIMP with the behaviour of the
random other tool, because that is the one true way (tm) on how certain
workflows have to work.

> What are the solutions to these problems? I don't really know but i think
> once some bad design decisions are made with an app it is very hard to fix
> things. The developers or at least some developer who has a vision on how
> to improve things is the most crucial component. I think the problem with a
> lot of software is that the developers do not use the software extensively
> or study how other programs do things.

That is true and this matches our experience. We have a ton of bad
decisions in the GIMP codebase (Images are always 8-bit RGB, right?) and
their legacy haunts us to this very day, although a lot of progress has
been made in the last few years. As for not using our own tool
ourselves: we do know that we have that kind of blind spot, but then we
also have the dialog with our users.

And if the lack of diagonal guides would be as neck-breaking as you make
it sound then we'd have a ton of feedback from all kinds of users about
it. We do have tons of users and it is not very hard to find quite
positive reviews of GIMP. The lack of diagonal guides is not a common
talking point. Neither is the selection of default brushes or weird
behaviour of the gui window management.

I suspect that the problems you see as absolutely crucial are quite
irrelevant for others and easily compensated by the ton of other
features where Gimp works quite well for them. Please try to consider
that before claiming that GIMP is doomed because we do have bad default
brushes.

Thank you.
Simon

-- 
  si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 2:09 AM Ryan Stark wrote:

> Gimp should be usable as a painting program just like Photoshop is.

We can have a nice long argument about that, because I can show you
artwork made with GIMP, and you wouldn't be able to tell if it was
done with GIMP, Krita, Painter, or Photoshop :)

> So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the guides. 
> There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in operation yet 
> no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.

It's on the roadmap. This is simply the question of having the manpower.

> Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute snail's 
> pace. Why?

What brush size?

> And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc still included 
> in Gimp when there are other better and free ones available?

Some of the "hideous brushes" come from the GIMP Paint Studio project
which people used to love with a capital L :) The others (from G-P-S)
haven't been merged, because the only person who decided to spend time
on this hasn't yet finished what he started -- for reasons I'm not
aware of (probably just busy).

This is really simple. If you want something improved, there are
basically three options: wait till someone does it, hire someone to do
it, or do it yourself.

Every single person in this project (including me) got involved with
GIMP in their respective roles because we wanted something that GIMP
didn't have, and waiting wasn't an option.

If you are interested in updating the default assets like patterns
(with free-as-in-speech licensed content), you are welcome to do
exactly that. We'll insist on keeping the bell pepper though, for
hysterical raisins :)

> You can't go from from single window mode to multiple without your layout 
> being messed up.

I've just done exactly that to verify your statement, and nothing
broke. I'm on Ubuntu 18.10 and GNOME/Wayland, with GIMP from
up-to-date 'gimp-2-10' git branch (haven't seen anything like what you
described for as long as I can remember though). More details (with
screenshots) would be helpful, and possibly in the bug tracker.

> For example there is some kind of problem where certain actions with a mouse 
> or pen causes docked tabs to constantly break free without reason.

If this can be reproduced, it should be reported.

> The problem is that some people may be prepared for a few problems, report a 
> few bugs etc but then it just gets tedious and they move to another app. I 
> believe many will do this with Gimp.

Yes, but we can't fix bugs we aren't told about.

> What are the solutions to these problems? I don't really know but i think 
> once some bad design decisions are made with an app it is very hard to fix 
> things.

Undoing bad design decision was a major part of 2.10 development cycle
and continues to be in the master branch leading up to v3.0.

> The developers or at least some developer who has a vision on how to improve 
> things is the most crucial component. I think the problem with a lot of 
> software is that the developers do not use the software extensively or study 
> how other programs do things.

End-users tend to expect developers to do all sorts of things, from
writing user manuals to making builds for every single possible Linux
flavor out there. While developers tend to lack the time to do actual
programming, let alone all those nice things you are talking about.
This is why we treasure good, sensible bug reports and feature
requests explaining why something is wrong and what are the options of
improving on that.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

Alexandre, Mypaint has some new features in the development version which
takes the brush engine onto a much better level. Also, Mypaint has been
carefully designed for minimum hassle with workflow and UI. It is a very
simple but effective app. I'm a fan of that app but I'm not such a fan of
Krita for a few reasons including that it uses KDE libraries but it does
have many features that people want and it's feasible to user for painting.
Gimp should be usable as a painting program just like Photoshop is.

So many of Gimp's features seem unfinished. For example, look at the
guides. There are horizontal and vertical guides similar to Inkscape in
operation yet no diagonal guides which would be an obvious addition.
Applying any dynamics to a brush causes Gimp to go at an absolute snail's
pace. Why? And why on earth are all those hideous brushes, patterns etc
still included in Gimp when there are other better and free ones available?
This makes Gimp look very poor to any new user. The little sliders to
adjust values are not very good and text entry is horrible. You can't go
from from single window mode to multiple without your layout being messed
up. Having a UI like this without being able to save your windows layouts
is crazy. I've encountered many bugs and a few crashes in Gimp 2.10 which
never used to happen. For example there is some kind of problem where
certain actions with a mouse or pen causes docked tabs to constantly break
free without reason.

The problem is that some people may be prepared for a few problems, report
a few bugs etc but then it just gets tedious and they move to another app.
I believe many will do this with Gimp.

As for any contribution I could make, that would only be with using Gimp as
a painting app and the brushes because I've been through the brush engines
of just about every app out there. This is why I like Mypaint and the new
features. However, every time I try to use Gimp I end up in other programs,
including Clip Paint Studio which I run in Wine. I would much rather use
Gimp.

What are the solutions to these problems? I don't really know but i think
once some bad design decisions are made with an app it is very hard to fix
things. The developers or at least some developer who has a vision on how
to improve things is the most crucial component. I think the problem with a
lot of software is that the developers do not use the software extensively
or study how other programs do things.

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 18:07, Niccolo Brogi  wrote:

> @Ryan: it's like talking to a wall, don't waste your time.
>
> Also if you don't want abuse from Alexandre's huge ego.
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 18:53 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 8:27 PM Ryan Stark wrote:
>> >
>> > I appreciate that the app is free open source and developers are
>> working for free but it seems they are cut off from most users.
>>
>> What would you suggest to do that we don't already do?
>>
>> > Virtually every feature has some kind of usability bad design
>>
>> And you are welcome to report issues and propose specific changes.
>>
>> > and Gimp is not as stable and reliable as it used to be
>>
>> Yes, the side effect of releasing a huge amount of changes you've seen
>> in 2.10 is less stability.
>>
>> > Most people are not going to bother going on mailing lists. There
>> doesn't seem to be any decent forum that everyone uses like there is for
>> Blender as in Blenderartists
>>
>> There is discuss.pixls.us. It's decent and everyone (but you?) uses
>> it. I also regularly answer questions on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook
>> etc. Places that noone uses :)
>>
>> > and there is no Gimp manual for the latest version.
>>
>> Yes. It's being worked on by a single person. Would you be interested
>> to help Julien?
>>
>> > Gimp appears to be a jack of all trades and master of none so there is
>> no passionate community.
>>
>> That is quite the opposite of what I see. Darn, I have to stop some
>> users from being too passionate :)
>>
>> > A sign of the problems is that on Linux we have Krita and Mypaint. If
>> Gimp's tools had been better for painting and manipulating things on the
>> canvas we would not have needed those apps.
>>
>> Krita is almost 20 years old. You might want revisiting your argument.
>>
>> MyPaint's development is, sadly, on the declining side. Personally, I
>> hope that Briend will merge all his changes from 2017-2018 and
>> stimulate a new, long overdue release.
>>
>> I don't think we as a community need just GIMP. I love what Martin et
>> al. did with MyPaint, there absolutely is enough room for applications
>> like MyPaint and Krita streamlined for particular demographics or use
>> cases.
>>
>> > Most people edit photos in a RAW editors now so these more
>> comprehensive 2D image editors should not be centred around just editing
>> photos.
>>
>> GIMP 2.10.x features MyPaint Brush tool, canvas rotating/flipping, and
>> other painting-specific things. Some 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ofnuts]

On 1/8/19 7:23 PM, Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list wrote:

A sign of the problems is that on Linux we have Krita
and Mypaint. If Gimp's tools had been better for painting and manipulating
things on the canvas we would not have needed those apps.


Now, that's a weird argument. Linux has always been about choices:

 * Half a dozen major distros (not counting the server-centered ones),
   and scores of variants
 * Half a dozen desktop managers
 * Many editors
 * Many IDEs
 * Two full-scale C compilers
 * Two web servers in wide use
 * Two RDBMS

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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 8:27 PM Ryan Stark wrote:
>
> I appreciate that the app is free open source and developers are working for 
> free but it seems they are cut off from most users.

What would you suggest to do that we don't already do?

> Virtually every feature has some kind of usability bad design

And you are welcome to report issues and propose specific changes.

> and Gimp is not as stable and reliable as it used to be

Yes, the side effect of releasing a huge amount of changes you've seen
in 2.10 is less stability.

> Most people are not going to bother going on mailing lists. There doesn't 
> seem to be any decent forum that everyone uses like there is for Blender as 
> in Blenderartists

There is discuss.pixls.us. It's decent and everyone (but you?) uses
it. I also regularly answer questions on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook
etc. Places that noone uses :)

> and there is no Gimp manual for the latest version.

Yes. It's being worked on by a single person. Would you be interested
to help Julien?

> Gimp appears to be a jack of all trades and master of none so there is no 
> passionate community.

That is quite the opposite of what I see. Darn, I have to stop some
users from being too passionate :)

> A sign of the problems is that on Linux we have Krita and Mypaint. If Gimp's 
> tools had been better for painting and manipulating things on the canvas we 
> would not have needed those apps.

Krita is almost 20 years old. You might want revisiting your argument.

MyPaint's development is, sadly, on the declining side. Personally, I
hope that Briend will merge all his changes from 2017-2018 and
stimulate a new, long overdue release.

I don't think we as a community need just GIMP. I love what Martin et
al. did with MyPaint, there absolutely is enough room for applications
like MyPaint and Krita streamlined for particular demographics or use
cases.

> Most people edit photos in a RAW editors now so these more comprehensive 2D 
> image editors should not be centred around just editing photos.

GIMP 2.10.x features MyPaint Brush tool, canvas rotating/flipping, and
other painting-specific things. Some features like layer group masks
are useful for a variety of use cases. Upcoming v2.10.10 is also
featuring smart colorization for painters and comic artists, as well
as a DDS plug-in for game designers.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Ryan Stark via gimp-developer-list]

If you aren't a heavy critic of Gimp there is something wrong with you. I
appreciate that the app is free open source and developers are working for
free but it seems they are cut off from most users. This is apparent by
simply using the app. Virtually every feature has some kind of usability
bad design and Gimp is not as stable and reliable as it used to be. Most
people are not going to bother going on mailing lists. There doesn't seem
to be any decent forum that everyone uses like there is for Blender as in
Blenderartists and there is no Gimp manual for the latest version. Gimp
appears to be a jack of all trades and master of none so there is no
passionate community. A sign of the problems is that on Linux we have Krita
and Mypaint. If Gimp's tools had been better for painting and manipulating
things on the canvas we would not have needed those apps. Most people edit
photos in a RAW editors now so these more comprehensive 2D image editors
should not be centred around just editing photos.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 07:20, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 23:19 Simone Karin Lehmann sim...@lisanet.de:
>
> > …
> >
> > "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
> >
> > Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely
>
> and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are
> > better than solely saying "we don't do release dates“ and explains how a
> > smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting
> that
> > he might be wrong, though.
> >
>
> The problem here is that you are reading a reply that he later edited to
> look nicer, after I replied to him.
>
> The original comment suggested that by refusing to set dates to releases we
> tell users to f*** off (I'm redacting this here, he didn't). And there was
> no admission that he could be wrong.
>
> Look, Simone, there are not many active contributors to GIMP, but those who
> are, me including, spend upwards of 20 hours a week on this project (maybe
> even more for some). It's like having another job (or another family).
>
> And since my job is pretty much about communication between users and
> developers, I find his repeated suggestion that we don't care about users
> incredibly offensive, which I told him about several times, and he never
> had the dignity to apologize (which would resolve the conflict completely).
> On the contrary, instead of apologizing, he did his best to discredit my
> involvement, not to mention all the expletives.
>
> It's your choice to protect an abusive person though.
>
> Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 23:19 Simone Karin Lehmann sim...@lisanet.de:

> …
>
> "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
>
> Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely

and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are
> better than solely saying "we don't do release dates“ and explains how a
> smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that
> he might be wrong, though.
>

The problem here is that you are reading a reply that he later edited to
look nicer, after I replied to him.

The original comment suggested that by refusing to set dates to releases we
tell users to f*** off (I'm redacting this here, he didn't). And there was
no admission that he could be wrong.

Look, Simone, there are not many active contributors to GIMP, but those who
are, me including, spend upwards of 20 hours a week on this project (maybe
even more for some). It's like having another job (or another family).

And since my job is pretty much about communication between users and
developers, I find his repeated suggestion that we don't care about users
incredibly offensive, which I told him about several times, and he never
had the dignity to apologize (which would resolve the conflict completely).
On the contrary, instead of apologizing, he did his best to discredit my
involvement, not to mention all the expletives.

It's your choice to protect an abusive person though.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Joao S. O. Bueno via gimp-developer-list]

Now when reading you people, I can understand why
is it that Guido stepped down from being the Python head.
And why the GIMP dev team really have an option of being more recluse -

I should tell you that I'd be in the same category of Prokoudine -
mention GIMP as "us", although my code contribution have
been negligible over the years. believe it or not, there is more
 work to be done on a project like this than writing
the lines of code. Acknowledging  the sheer amount of
work that it takes for refactoring
or adding some of the features on the project as it is now,
 based only on the work of very few volunteers is part
of what makes the project progress.

I have friends that poke me with the same insistence you
were taking on that reddit thread about new features,
release, or GIMP releases - and, believe it:
it does really piss one off, if one only knows what is involved.

In my case, the persons were calling me that I should
 "talk the GIMP team to get the 2.10 version on Ubuntu (18.04 version) ,
 and somehow implying it was GIMP teams fault that it
would not run out of the box there. Snap packages, or 3rd
 party repositories were not enough for them.
Explaining it is not GIMP volunteers
responsibility which version is included or not in Ubuntu
was as impossible to them as it seems to be to explain
you that there can't be date-mandated releases in
GIMP project.

If you can't see in how many levels saying
 "Ubuntu has been having scheduled releases for years,
 are you saying that GIMP is some complicated than a whole operating system?"
is incorrect, it is really hard to think of ways of explaining
 it you'd find polite. (I wrote on that comparison bellow -
 it is really so out of scale, I don't feel like I
could express 30% of the differences)

So humans are faulty in communicating in a way that makes
everyone happy, and I am sorry if the way Prokoudine
 put his statements made you feel as bad
as bringing this mail thread here. But really, there
is a reason why the answers
on "why is not feature X included already" or "why will
it take so long", "why there is no Windows/Mac/Linux
Distro Du Jour ready to install from the site" is answered
with some impatience by _us_.

The fact is that all these things demand work.
 Hard work. And all things in GIMP are made by
volunteers. Including not only development, but also
documenting, making the news posts to the web sites,
translating, _and_ talking to users that reach the
eam and managing their expectations.

Ultimately, when it is stated that the project can't
 make scheduled releases by one that _do_ _participate_
of the project core community, and there is
still insistence in the point, it is really complicated
 to go forward on the discussion
without crossing the line - and I myself often do cross it
 - and I excuse Alexandre if he did cross it, although
 my reading on that thread is that it was still ok - since
the posts he was replying too were in no means
reasonable.

It is true that adding new tools, or filters, or themes can make part
of intermediate, short releases, and that is what the team
has agreed upon: these are being made during the micro version
of the 2.10.x series, and there is a much shorter cicle for these releases
than for minor version, or, as is the case, major version changes.
The fact is that the changes that took place from 2.8 to 2.10, and the ones that
are getting in place from 2.10 to 3.0 simply CAN NOT be partial! You either
have the whole software ported to the new underlying technology, or you
have a mess that can barely function. One can't have GTK 2.x code in
one part of the 2000+ C source files, and GTK 3.x code on other part
of those.
Now, does the above paragraph sounds "impolite"? I'd guess so. Still,
it deals only with facts.

And finally, let's move to your very unreasonable statement trying to compare
GIMP with Ubuntu project above, and let's try to put in perspective
why these are not reasonable.

So, Ubuntu is a project that encompass 10.000+ software
 packages. As an outsider to the project, it is easy to
estimate they feature a couple hundred (had to google some -
and only could get some numbers for 2008, there seems to be 50 core
contributors, and 340 packagers  at the time)
More over, the work they do on the packages is made on top of the work
made on the Debian project - so, for a lot of those packages,
the work is mostly done - and I am quite sure it works the
other way around: Debian packages that are based on whatever
packaging job is done on Ubuntu, and more than a handful of
people who makes some packages for both systems)
Some of the authors of those 1+ packages certainly contribute
downstream and do the packaging to Debian/Ubuntu.
But what they have to do to ensure new releases each 6 months of
Ubuntu, is mostly to ensure those packages work together, picking
a version as new as possible when the date is due. And that is already
a lot of work. Sure, there are projects that are ubuntu specific, and 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Massimo Fidanza via gimp-developer-list]

It is very sad that this exchange of opinions ended up this way. GIMP is an
open source software and is developed by volunteers, so time is better
spent in developing than fighting. I like timebox releases as Ubuntu, but
as said by Alexander after 2.10 release they found a new development model
that give a good compromises. This decision was taken by developers
community and was open to everyone, but I think that developers community that
constantly dedicates its time to the project has more say in relation to
the others. If someone wants to make his contribution in terms of
decisions, perhaps he should first devote his time to development and to
the activities needed to carry out the project.
This is just my opinion and I do not seek approval or dissent.

Il giorno ven 16 nov 2018 alle ore 23:28 Niccolo Brogi via
gimp-developer-list  ha scritto:

> I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:
>
> > To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
> the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
> where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
> know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
> has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
> well known commercial product or shut up.
>
> This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear
> unwillingness to admit that.
>
> Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is
> such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did.
> Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my
> sentiment.
>
> I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how
> Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole
> GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many
> people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away
> from the project.
>
> This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as
> you see fit, over and out.
>
>  Have a good one, ciao.
>
> Niccolo
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann 
> wrote:
>
> > hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing
> > list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.
> >
> > The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer
> > to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply
> says
> >
> > "No GTK 3..?“
> >
> > and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He
> > than wrote
> >
> > "Ah, I see.
> > Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“
> >
> > With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I
> > really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an
> > inappropriate way.
> >
> > After Alex joins in with his remark that…
> >
> > "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
> >
> > Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his
> > opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying
> "we
> > don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this
> > sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong,
> though.
> >
> > This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after
> > quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a
> > totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to
> > his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground
> > for further hitting on Niccolo.
> >
> > Well, and so it came …
> >
> > To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
> > the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
> > where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
> > know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and
> either
> > has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
> > well known commercial product or shut up.
> >
> > And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...
> >
> > Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I
> > couldn’t stand it not to write it.
> >
> > BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site
> > gimp.lisanet.de offline.
> >
> > Simone Karin
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list <
> > gimp-developer-list@gnome.org>:
> >
> > Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
> >
> > Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> > -C
> >
> > On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi  >
> > ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
> > thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
> > loud.
> >
> > How sad is this culture you've created.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:

> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
well known commercial product or shut up.

This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear
unwillingness to admit that.

Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is
such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did.
Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my
sentiment.

I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how
Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole
GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many
people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away
from the project.

This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as
you see fit, over and out.

 Have a good one, ciao.

Niccolo

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann 
wrote:

> hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing
> list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.
>
> The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer
> to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply says
>
> "No GTK 3..?“
>
> and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He
> than wrote
>
> "Ah, I see.
> Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“
>
> With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I
> really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an
> inappropriate way.
>
> After Alex joins in with his remark that…
>
> "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
>
> Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his
> opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying "we
> don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this
> sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.
>
> This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after
> quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a
> totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to
> his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground
> for further hitting on Niccolo.
>
> Well, and so it came …
>
> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
> the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
> where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
> know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
> has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
> well known commercial product or shut up.
>
> And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...
>
> Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I
> couldn’t stand it not to write it.
>
> BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site
> gimp.lisanet.de offline.
>
> Simone Karin
>
>
>
> Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org>:
>
> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi 
> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
> loud.
>
> How sad is this culture you've created.
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>
> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Simone Karin Lehmann]

hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing list 
and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.

The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer to 
another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply says

"No GTK 3..?“

and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He than 
wrote

"Ah, I see.
Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“

With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I really 
can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an inappropriate way.

After Alex joins in with his remark that…

"We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“

Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his opinion, he 
thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying "we don't do release 
dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and 
finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.

This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after quoting 
only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a totally new topic 
Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to his quote, only to force 
him to justify his opinion and laying the ground for further hitting on Niccolo.

Well, and so it came …

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses the 
slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he 
gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything 
about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either has to use GIMP 
as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial 
product or shut up.

And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...

Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I couldn’t 
stand it not to write it. 

BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site gimp.lisanet.de 
 offline.

Simone Karin



> Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list 
> :
> 
> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
> 
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
> 
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi  
>> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
>> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
>> loud.
>> 
>> How sad is this culture you've created.
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>> 
>>> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
>>> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
>>> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
>>> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
>>> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
>>> deal with it all the time.
>>> 
>>> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
>>> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
>>> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
>>> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
>>> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
>>> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>>> 
>>> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
>>> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
>>> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
>>> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
>>> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
>>> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>>> 
>>> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
>>> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
>>> users.
>>> 
>>> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>>> 
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>> -C
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
>>> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:
>>> 
 пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
 
> 
> 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
> channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
 group,
> and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
 post,
> thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
> identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
 IMPORTANTLY
> you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields
 and
> filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
 amount of
> abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
 beyond
> an accepted 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

You've been wonderful.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:18 PM Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 2:47 PM C R  wrote:
>
>> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
>>
>> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
>> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
>>
>
> I'm afraid I've been giving a bad example how to deal with abusive users.
> Let's not repeat my mistakes.
>
> Alex
>
>> --
Niccolo.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

I know, I know. Just saying. It would also have been funnier without the
"trauma" part, ex. "I'm glad you found a support group.".

Alright, see you. Bye.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:47 PM C R  wrote:

> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
>
> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
>
> (thread muted)
>
> -C
>
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi 
>> Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:
>>
>>> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>>>
>>> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
>>> -C
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi >>
 ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
 thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
 loud.

 How sad is this culture you've created.

 On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:

> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on
> all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for
> our users.
>
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via
> gimp-developer-list 
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>>
>> >
>> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
>> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an
>> email group,
>> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and
>> each post,
>> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
>> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
>> IMPORTANTLY
>> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
>> fields and
>> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
>> amount of
>> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>> beyond
>> > an accepted threshold/limit.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
>> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for
>> people to
>> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even
>> harder.
>>
>> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
>> complicated
>> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
>> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved
>> with
>> moderation.
>>
>> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
>> takes
>> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
>> rare
>> outbursts like this one.
>>
>> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
>> consider superior communication channels.
>>
>> Alex
>>
> ___
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> --
 Niccolo.

>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
___
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
List membership: 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:

> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi 
>> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
>> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
>> loud.
>>
>> How sad is this culture you've created.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>>
>>> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
>>> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
>>> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
>>> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
>>> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
>>> deal with it all the time.
>>>
>>> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
>>> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
>>> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
>>> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
>>> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
>>> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>>>
>>> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
>>> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
>>> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
>>> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
>>> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
>>> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>>>
>>> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
>>> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
>>> users.
>>>
>>> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>> -C
>>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
>>> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:
>>>
 пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:

 >
 > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
 > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
 group,
 > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
 post,
 > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
 > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
 IMPORTANTLY
 > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
 fields and
 > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
 amount of
 > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
 beyond
 > an accepted threshold/limit.
 >

 Hi Trevor,

 I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
 manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people
 to
 contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

 Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
 complicated
 while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
 pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
 moderation.

 So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
 takes
 just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
 rare
 outbursts like this one.

 Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
 consider superior communication channels.

 Alex

>>> ___
 gimp-developer-list mailing list
 List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
 List membership:
 https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
 List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
___
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List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list]

...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole thing
exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out loud.

How sad is this culture you've created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:

> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
> users.
>
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:
>
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>>
>> >
>> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
>> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
>> group,
>> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
>> post,
>> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
>> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
>> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields
>> and
>> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount
>> of
>> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>> beyond
>> > an accepted threshold/limit.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
>> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
>> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>>
>> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
>> complicated
>> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
>> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
>> moderation.
>>
>> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
>> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
>> outbursts like this one.
>>
>> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
>> consider superior communication channels.
>>
>> Alex
>>
> ___
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>
> --
Niccolo.
___
gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Trevor Rose via gimp-developer-list]

Hi,

I’m nobody in particular, I don’t even use GIMP, but for some reason I’m
tuned in to this conversation and haven’t bothered unsubscribing ... BUT
might I offer a suggestion:

1 — it seems to me the most relevant points are as follows:
— it is vital to be able to critique the product in order to argue a case
for improvement
— emotional disagreements in such critique should be reduced as much as
possible or removed entirely
— the public image of your product should not suffer as a consequence of
such communication
— no valid suggestion arising from such critique should be missed, as this
constitutes missed opportunity

2 — the reason why this seems to be occurring ( from my outsider
perspective ), is because you’re using far too open systems for everything
... ie: it’s one thing to be open source with your code, it’s another
entirely to be open with your communications, as this allows anyone to say
anything for any reason and in any form they want, all of which creates
infinite possibility for error ... and here I am, a total stranger, with no
particular interest or involvement as a developer nor user, demonstrating
that fact ( though hopefully doing so in a way that might solve your
problem )

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group,
and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post,
thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and
filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of
abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond
an accepted threshold/limit.

Whomever it was that wrote something like “this reflects badly on GIMP and
GIMP developers” is correct, as an outsider I can assure you it does,
because even if they’re not guilty of any one or another accusation, the
fact remains that I ( as an outsider ) shouldn’t be seeing any of this
happening in the first place, and the very best case scenario I can
attribute to it, is that no one involved in the development has been
bothered to fix what should arguably be a reasonably easy issue to fix.

There are so many better communication platforms out there than a group
email, I cannot understand why you’d be using it for a software development
project in which so many people can just write whatever they please.

Currently I’m writing a series of books, I’m using some software for that,
and the developers have a nicely organised forum for it ... they’ve been
around nowhere near as long as GIMP, their budget is SFA, and yet it’s rare
to see anything get even remotely impolite on their site ... now maybe
that’s because writers are nicer people? Maybe it’s because we are used to
writing and therefore more precise with our language, but whatever the
reason, I cannot imagine preferring them to use this kind of group email
over the system they do use ... and even that forum software isn’t very
advanced versus other open source options.

Your software should be open source, but your conversations should not be
open slather.



On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 at 23:22, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list <
gimp-web-l...@gnome.org> wrote:

> Hi Niccolo,
>
> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> drawing conclusions.
>
> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
> containing expletives.
>
> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>
> Alexandre
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :
>
> > Hello.
> >
> > TLDR:
> > Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
> > developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
> that
> > are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
> > the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> >
> > FULL:
> >
> > A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
> a
> > couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
> >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> > from the Reddit thread at
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> While
> > it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
> > Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
> > ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
> hundreds
> > of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> > understood I claimed 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 2:47 PM C R  wrote:

> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
>
> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
>

I'm afraid I've been giving a bad example how to deal with abusive users.
Let's not repeat my mistakes.

Alex

>
___
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List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Simone Karin Lehmann]

> Am 16.11.2018 um 12:46  C R via gimp-developer-list 
> :
> 
> Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.
> 
> You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
> I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.
> 

Thank you for your sarcasm. And most of all, thanks for staying away. 

I can’t believe, how you and others on this list, treat people, who don‘t share 
your point of view. 

Simone Karin Lehmann
- former contributor to GIMP and founder and maintainer of the 
GIMP-on-OSX-project. 

> 
>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi > 
>> Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.
>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>>> 
>>> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
>>> -C
>>> 
 On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi >>> 
 ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
 thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
 loud.
 
 How sad is this culture you've created.
 
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
> 
> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
> 
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
> 
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
> 
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
> users.
> 
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list
>  
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
>>> channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
>> group,
>>> and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
>> post,
>>> thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
>>> identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
>> IMPORTANTLY
>>> you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
>> fields and
>>> filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
>> amount of
>>> abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>> beyond
>>> an accepted threshold/limit.
>>> 
>> 
>> Hi Trevor,
>> 
>> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
>> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for
>> people to
>> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>> 
>> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
>> complicated
>> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
>> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
>> moderation.
>> 
>> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
>> takes
>> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
>> rare
>> outbursts like this one.
>> 
>> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
>> consider superior communication channels.
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
> ___
>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
>> List membership:
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>> 
> --
 Niccolo.
 
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>> 
> 

Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[C R via gimp-developer-list]

Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.

You'll pull through though. I believe in you!
I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.

(thread muted)

-C


On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi  Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R  wrote:
>
>> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>>
>> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
>> -C
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi >
>>> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
>>> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
>>> loud.
>>>
>>> How sad is this culture you've created.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R  wrote:
>>>
 As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
 customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
 pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
 something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
 People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
 deal with it all the time.

 People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
 fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
 flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
 contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
 world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
 constructive attitude (as part of the community).

 We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
 stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
 primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
 best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
 rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
 in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

 Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
 our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
 users.

 Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

 Just my thoughts.
 -C
 On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list
 >>>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>
> >
> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
> group,
> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
> post,
> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
> IMPORTANTLY
> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory
> fields and
> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
> amount of
> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
> beyond
> > an accepted threshold/limit.
> >
>
> Hi Trevor,
>
> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for
> people to
> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>
> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
> complicated
> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
> moderation.
>
> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
> takes
> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
> rare
> outbursts like this one.
>
> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
> consider superior communication channels.
>
> Alex
>
 ___
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
> List membership:
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>
 --
>>> Niccolo.
>>>
>> --
> Niccolo.
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[C R via gimp-developer-list]

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss,
but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless
mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs
suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?)
and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive
attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff
about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily
to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to
avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than
be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his
defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our
media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts.
-C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:
>
> >
> > 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
> > channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
> group,
> > and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
> post,
> > thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
> > identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
> > you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields
> and
> > filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount
> of
> > abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond
> > an accepted threshold/limit.
> >
>
> Hi Trevor,
>
> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>
> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
> moderation.
>
> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
> outbursts like this one.
>
> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
> consider superior communication channels.
>
> Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list]

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.tre...@gmail.com:

>
> 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
> channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group,
> and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post,
> thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
> identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
> you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and
> filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of
> abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond
> an accepted threshold/limit.
>

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
consider superior communication channels.

Alex
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