Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
On 05/12/2019 04:33 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:45 PM Elle Stone wrote: Could you give an example or two in GIMP of what you consider "overly complicated/nerdy" terminology? Standard Deviation in Unsharp Mask would be one such example. You are right. The user wants the radius in pixels, and in GIMP to get to pixels the user has to multiply the value GIMP shows by two and add 1, as the tooltip says, leaving the user to wonder why the algorithm doesn't just do the calculation and present the slider units in pixels. The same is true for Selective Gaussian Blur and Unsharp Mask, with additional issues for the additional sliders, not to mention issues with actually using the sliders. For example, for many use cases for Selective Gaussian blur (eg blur sky, preserve branches and building edges), useful edge-preserving values for Max. Delta seem to be down around 0.030 on the provided scale from 0 to 1.000, difficult to dial in, difficult to fine-tune. The hover text for the "Max. delta" slider says "Maximum delta", which is not helpful. And don't get me started on options in tonemapping filters :) I agree here too, though the "on-hover" text sort of helps if the user doesn't mind looking stuff up on the internet. Which really for these sorts of algorithms, learning how they actually work is a good idea. My main complaints about the tonemapping filters is that they are slow to show previews, CPU-intensive, and image-specific in terms of results, sort of reduces the user to shoving sliders around to see what happens. But I'm guessing these issues are not specific to GIMP's implementation. Best, Elle ___ gimp-gui-list mailing list gimp-gui-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
On 05/12/2019 04:33 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:45 PM Elle Stone wrote: GIMP's current user interface is the *least* important problem when it comes to actual usability. Adding still-missing critical functionalities is hugely more important than revising the interface to make it simpler for newbies. It's a complete shame that the switch to GTK3/4 has had to take priority over adding critical missing functionalities to GIMP. There is little shameful about moving from a semi-maintained version of a critical component such as UI toolkit to an actually supported and actively developed version thereof. Hmm, I think you misunderstand me. Linux moves in lock-step with all its libraries. *Any* application that refuses to move along with the libraries, eventually gets dropped from first a few, then eventually all versions of Linux. Back in 2013, GIMP was one of the last major hold-outs for the switch from LCMS-1 to LCMS-2, but it had to be done. Fast-forward to 2019, and I'm guessing that GIMP is one of the last major hold-outs for GTK2, and *has* to make the switch to GTK3/4 (no matter how much Elle Stone might abhor what she's seen of GTK3). Well, there's the option of GIMP switching to QT, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen. And there'd still be periodic version changes to deal with. The switch from GTK2 to GTK3/4 really does have to take priority over other stuff that might be hugely more desireable from a user's point of view, such as adjustment layers. The "shame" in "it's a shame" is that this switching of libraries *has* to happen, but demands so much time and effort. Also, there was (and still is) a lot of technical debt in GIMP that has to go away to make room for new things. What is technical debt? Does it mean we can get rid of Value Invert, which despite its name, has nothing to do with inverting HSV value? Flynn was right to point out that this is a very confusing operation. I've stared at the code, tried all kinds of layer manipulation to figure out what it really does, it's just out there on it's own as something someone came up with for some reason, that was added to GIMP and left there. Yet, no doubt a slew of people depend on that operation. Sigh. Speaking of "get rid of", was "Colorify" actually dropped? Or just moved somewhere else on the menu? Best, Elle ___ gimp-gui-list mailing list gimp-gui-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:45 PM Elle Stone wrote: > Could you give an example or two in GIMP of what you consider "overly > complicated/nerdy" terminology? Standard Deviation in Unsharp Mask would be one such example. And don't get me started on options in tonemapping filters :) > Could you give some examples of convoluted defaults? I'd need time for that. > I don't know about the path tool working differently than the pen tool, > because in all my 17 years of editing photographs using a computer, I've > never once had a reason to use a path/pen tool. I'm baffled as to why > anyone would try to use the path tool to make a selection. Microstock photography sites tend to suggest clips around objects in photos. > There is a great big huge difference between a "complete newbie" who's > never edited a photograph before, and a "newbie to GIMP" who already > knows how to use an equivalent program such as PhotoPaint or PhotoShop. > > A user who is clueless about editing photographs, is not going to find > GIMP OR other advanced image editors easy to use. That user will find some apps easier to understand than others though. > I just downloaded Blender 2.8, and even though now I have a few clues as > to what Blender is used for, I still have absolutely no clue what to do > with Blender 2.8. Even the stuff I was shown regarding basic > photo-editing in previous versions of Blender, seems to have moved. Not > that I would ever recommend anyone using any version of Blender to edit > photographs. I'm sure I didn't suggest Blender as a photo editing application :) > GIMP's current user interface is the *least* important problem when it > comes to actual usability. Adding still-missing critical functionalities > is hugely more important than revising the interface to make it simpler > for newbies. It's a complete shame that the switch to GTK3/4 has had to > take priority over adding critical missing functionalities to GIMP. There is little shameful about moving from a semi-maintained version of a critical component such as UI toolkit to an actually supported and actively developed version thereof. Also, there was (and still is) a lot of technical debt in GIMP that has to go away to make room for new things. Alex ___ gimp-gui-list mailing list gimp-gui-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
It's exactly as you said. Different tools are suitable for different situations. It's nonsense to to even try to make selection of some complex things like branches, hair,... using path tool. On the other hand it's quiet useful for some hard surfaces with simple structure (machinery, furniture, cups,...), toons, etc where other selection tools fails. On Sun, May 12, 2019, 18:47 Elle Stone wrote: > On 05/12/2019 08:58 AM, Michal Vašut wrote: > > I am not sure if the Pen / Path tool, you are talking about is the tool > > wirh bezier curves, but if so, here is the uscase for creating selection > > (and its quiet obvious one) : > > The pen/paths tool really is not an obvious "newbie choice" for making > selections, not when the first 7 tools in the toolbox all have the word > "select" in their names and their "on-hover" text. It's especially not > an obvious choice for making a rough selection around a stack of cups, > before desaturating the selected area, as per the very straightforward > task in Flynn's usability study. > > Flynn Liu, did any of the participants in the study choose one of the 7 > selection tools to make the rough selection around the cups? Or perhaps > you explicitly told the participants to draw a line around the cups > using the paths/pen tool because you wanted to see if they found the > paths tool difficult to locate and/or use? > > > I am not sure if the Pen / Path tool, you are talking about is the tool > > wirh bezier curves, but if so, here is the uscase for creating selection > > (and its quiet obvious one) : > > To clarify my terminology: > > PhotoShop pen tool: > https://www.photoshopessentials.com/basics/selections/pen-tool-selections/ > - which per your comment is a tutorial on using the pen tool to make a > selection. > > GIMP path tool: https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-tool-path.html - > apparently it's actually called "paths" tool - my apologies, I never > noticed the "s". > > > Imagine you have only mouse and need to create precise selection and > > straight lines - using laso tool is not enough (ie to create mask) - one > > For many years I didn't have a tablet, only a mouse. On those rare > occasions when I wanted to trace around an object in a photograph to > make a selection, I made adequately precise selections using scissors > and free-select/lasso. Free-select/lasso can make selections as > absolutely precise as your patience with zooming in and adding points > allows. How does the Pen/Path tool allow to make a more precise selection? > > Having read the PhotoShop tutorial, and making the perhaps risky > assumption that most of it also applies to GIMP paths tool, the > adjustability of paths around curves in an object during and after > making and saving the path does seem like it might be very useful. So > thanks! for prompting me to take a closer look at the paths tool. > > In practice, usually my selections are based on luminance or color > information, which I'm guessing the paths/pen tools aren't designed to > make this sort of selection. > > Usually when I make a selection, I immediately add it to a layer as a > mask - how is turning a selection into a mask any easier when using the > paths/pen tool? > > I run into difficulties making selections of objects when working with > eg a landscape photo and wanting a selection that separates the sky from > fine branches on the horizon, or a photo of a person and wanting a > selection that separates wisps of hair from the background. Does the > paths/pen tool help with this sort of selection? > > > Imagine you have only mouse and need to create precise selection and > > straight lines - using laso tool is not enough (ie to create mask) - one > > way is to create path around object and convert it to selection, it's > also > > perfect way to store it for later use. > > > > Selections can be stored as Channels. I don't see any advantage here, > unless maybe a stored path takes up less RAM, compared to a stored Channel? > > Or perhaps the advantage is being able to pull those stored curves in > and out at the anchor points? I can see this being useful for painting, > and especially for creating cartoon/comic/manga-type art. I can see > advantages for graphic design. But for straight photographic editing, I > don't see the advantage. Though if there are advantages, please explain! > > Anyway, thanks much! for prompting me to take a closer look at paths/pen > tool. > > Best, > Elle > > > On 05/12/2019 08:49 AM, Elle Stone wrote: > >> On 05/10/2019 08:21 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote: > Maybe a more interesting user testing with beginners should be done > like > this: they first follow a short introduction/lesson to common and > limited set of features with examples of usage. Then they are asked to > do a given task with what they have learned and the tools they were > just > explained. This would be much more interesting maybe. > >>> I tend to disagree. > >>> > >>> A common
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
I am not sure if the Pen / Path tool, you are talking about is the tool wirh bezier curves, but if so, here is the uscase for creating selection (and its quiet obvious one) : Imagine you have only mouse and need to create precise selection and straight lines - using laso tool is not enough (ie to create mask) - one way is to create path around object and convert it to selection, it's also perfect way to store it for later use. On Sun, May 12, 2019, 14:45 Elle Stone wrote: > On 05/10/2019 08:21 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote: > >> Maybe a more interesting user testing with beginners should be done like > >> this: they first follow a short introduction/lesson to common and > >> limited set of features with examples of usage. Then they are asked to > >> do a given task with what they have learned and the tools they were just > >> explained. This would be much more interesting maybe. > > I tend to disagree. > > > > A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the > > first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is > > overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't > > work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same > > way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the > > report), chances are -- that user is lost to us. > > Could you give an example or two in GIMP of what you consider "overly > complicated/nerdy" terminology? > > Could you give some examples of convoluted defaults? > > I don't know about the path tool working differently than the pen tool, > because in all my 17 years of editing photographs using a computer, I've > never once had a reason to use a path/pen tool. I'm baffled as to why > anyone would try to use the path tool to make a selection. > > There is a great big huge difference between a "complete newbie" who's > never edited a photograph before, and a "newbie to GIMP" who already > knows how to use an equivalent program such as PhotoPaint or PhotoShop. > > A user who is clueless about editing photographs, is not going to find > GIMP OR other advanced image editors easy to use. > > > A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the > > first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is > > overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't > > work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same > > way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the > > report), chances are -- that user is lost to us. > > > Blender did a fantastic job with 2.80 on defaults and accessibility of > > tools. People who teach Blender say, on average, their students make a > > lot more progress with 2.80 than with 2.79. > > One of the first things I did after switching to Linux was download and > install Blender, because someone told me it was really cool. I tried to > do something "practical". I failed. I didn't have a single clue what > Blender was used for. This wasn't a failing of the interface. > > I just downloaded Blender 2.8, and even though now I have a few clues as > to what Blender is used for, I still have absolutely no clue what to do > with Blender 2.8. Even the stuff I was shown regarding basic > photo-editing in previous versions of Blender, seems to have moved. Not > that I would ever recommend anyone using any version of Blender to edit > photographs. > > There is a great big *huge* difference between being a student in a > classroom with a *teacher* explaining the interface and how to use the > program, and especially for complete newbies who've never used > equivalent software and possibly having no clue what the software can > used for, vs having these same newbies trying to figure it out on their > own. > > > So we do need to know > > how newbies see GIMP for the first time. > > I used PhotoShop for several years. When I first started using GIMP-2.9 > I found GIMP to be basically "just like PhotoShop". I had deliberately > set PhotoShop (the CS2 version) up in Multi Window Mode (detached all > the dialogs to be free-floating, leaving a skinny bar at the top of the > screen with menus and such), just about as soon as I started using it, > so the whole "Single Window/Multiple Windows" issue wasn't even a > consideration. I like MWM, it allows to maximize configurability and > screen real estate. > > My problems with using GIMP have been, in order of importance: > > 1. The lack of support for high bit depth editing, which finally became > more or less possible after 2013, using GIMP-2.9. > > 2. The lack of support for editing in RGB color spaces other than sRGB, > which in 2019 *still* GIMP lacks support for editing in RGB color spaces > other than sRGB. > > 3. The lack of adjustment layers. > > 4. To a lesser extent for me, but high on the list for anyone with a > high volume workflow, is the lack of an easy way to record and play > sequences of editing steps. Programming at the
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
On 05/10/2019 08:21 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote: Maybe a more interesting user testing with beginners should be done like this: they first follow a short introduction/lesson to common and limited set of features with examples of usage. Then they are asked to do a given task with what they have learned and the tools they were just explained. This would be much more interesting maybe. I tend to disagree. A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the report), chances are -- that user is lost to us. Could you give an example or two in GIMP of what you consider "overly complicated/nerdy" terminology? Could you give some examples of convoluted defaults? I don't know about the path tool working differently than the pen tool, because in all my 17 years of editing photographs using a computer, I've never once had a reason to use a path/pen tool. I'm baffled as to why anyone would try to use the path tool to make a selection. There is a great big huge difference between a "complete newbie" who's never edited a photograph before, and a "newbie to GIMP" who already knows how to use an equivalent program such as PhotoPaint or PhotoShop. A user who is clueless about editing photographs, is not going to find GIMP OR other advanced image editors easy to use. A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the report), chances are -- that user is lost to us. Blender did a fantastic job with 2.80 on defaults and accessibility of tools. People who teach Blender say, on average, their students make a lot more progress with 2.80 than with 2.79. One of the first things I did after switching to Linux was download and install Blender, because someone told me it was really cool. I tried to do something "practical". I failed. I didn't have a single clue what Blender was used for. This wasn't a failing of the interface. I just downloaded Blender 2.8, and even though now I have a few clues as to what Blender is used for, I still have absolutely no clue what to do with Blender 2.8. Even the stuff I was shown regarding basic photo-editing in previous versions of Blender, seems to have moved. Not that I would ever recommend anyone using any version of Blender to edit photographs. There is a great big *huge* difference between being a student in a classroom with a *teacher* explaining the interface and how to use the program, and especially for complete newbies who've never used equivalent software and possibly having no clue what the software can used for, vs having these same newbies trying to figure it out on their own. So we do need to know how newbies see GIMP for the first time. I used PhotoShop for several years. When I first started using GIMP-2.9 I found GIMP to be basically "just like PhotoShop". I had deliberately set PhotoShop (the CS2 version) up in Multi Window Mode (detached all the dialogs to be free-floating, leaving a skinny bar at the top of the screen with menus and such), just about as soon as I started using it, so the whole "Single Window/Multiple Windows" issue wasn't even a consideration. I like MWM, it allows to maximize configurability and screen real estate. My problems with using GIMP have been, in order of importance: 1. The lack of support for high bit depth editing, which finally became more or less possible after 2013, using GIMP-2.9. 2. The lack of support for editing in RGB color spaces other than sRGB, which in 2019 *still* GIMP lacks support for editing in RGB color spaces other than sRGB. 3. The lack of adjustment layers. 4. To a lesser extent for me, but high on the list for anyone with a high volume workflow, is the lack of an easy way to record and play sequences of editing steps. Programming at the command line to achieve this goal is not a simple task, so it's no substitute for some equivalent of PhotoShop macros. 5. Not a problem for me, but GIMP lacks good CMYK support, which many photographers simply don't need. But apparently some do, though I'm guessing the DTP people and graphic designers are the ones who really, really, really need CMYK. I know of other people who are familiar with using PhotoShop, who also find GIMP easy to use, *except* for items 2, 3, and 4 listed above. From perusing forums, some or all of these items are "deal breakers" for many, many people who would otherwise switch to GIMP. Though
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
Thanks for the report. It looks interesting and globally well done, especially as a class project, though some things are quite approximate. It would have been interesting to contact the GIMP developers first to get some things straight. Below are my remarks: On 2019-03-24 07:59, Flynn Liu via gimp-gui-list wrote: Hello, GIMP developers: In January 2018, I conducted a user test on GIMP v2.8, as part of a class project. User testing is the process of having representative users from your user personas do a task designed by the interviewer. The interviewer then records breakdowns, situations in which the test participant is able to follow a sequence of steps toward the final goal, but got stuck at some point, failing to complete the task. I wrote a lot in the original report, but that was not a good way of communicating. In this email, I will summarize the report. Indeed. For a first communication, a full report (with many pages, I guess) might have been a bit too much. :-) I interviewed 5 people. Two of them are part-time photographers who have 60k+ followers on social media. The other three are STEM students who occasionally edit images for class projects. I will name them A, B, C, D, E, respectively. Task: consider the photo of a paper cup stack. Select the cup stack and turn it black-and-white. A rough selection is ok. Issue 1: sub-windows All test participants expressed their confusion regarding the sub-windows in GIMP v2.8. One of them wondered if they belonged to different programs. Despite this, all participants started doing the task without changing the default window layout. At the end, I asked each of them to find an existing option that “turns everything into one window,” but nobody found it. Participant A looked into the preferences dialog, did not find the option, and started browsing all the menubar items. He even opened the “window” menu, but did not recognize the option. Does the user think of the right thing at the right time (conceptual model)? No. participant C does not understand the default window layout. Yes. When instructed, participants want to adjust a program state to accommodate their preferences. Is the action visible? Yes. You can see it in the “window” menu. Does the user recognize the action, even if the label is on screen? No. All test participants fail to discover this action. They expect this action to be in “preferences.” Will the user understand the feedback? Yes, I believe participants will know the action works as they expect, but they prefer to have “single-window mode” activated by default. Analysis – why does the breakdown happen? Quoting my textbook [1], default values: - are the initial state of the program. - are the best values, reflecting the most common use cases you observe. (Users don’t need to change them.) Many users don’t change them. Being completely new to the software, participants did not change the default values. Default values did not reflect their expectation. Propose a solution! GIMP should be in single-window mode “by default.” This is now the case in GIMP 2.10. Quote your participants! - “Don’t have two windows. Use one window for the whole program.” - “When you open the software, you want to focus on the software. You don’t want to see gaps everywhere.” Issue 2: accepting invalid input Ok so here, this is where I am starting to not understand much. As an advice, I think it is important to have the same terminology (either use the terminology seen in GIMP interface or in our documentions, or make a dictionnary with screenshots so that we understand what is your terminology at least) so that we understand what you say: When finding the pen tool, participants D and E first looked at the brush and texture panel, though it is not required for the task. In I am assuming what you call "panel" is our dockables (cf. docs: https://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-concepts-docks.html as well as menu labels). Otherwise I don't understand what you are talking about. Also for the pen tool, brush or texture dockables can be useful, though I don't understand why the pen tool could be useful for the given task (transform a part of the image into B). But well, why not. :-) GIMP, it is important to define a selection before using the brush and texture panel. I don't understand this. Why do you have to make a selection for the brush/texture dockables (still assuming panel == dockable)? The panel is active when a path is in the process of being drawn. A path? I am assuming you are not using the vector tool (which is where we use the work "path"). You are probably refering to free selection (Free Select tool)? A participant interacted with the panel without a well-defined region, but this action did not change anything in the image, or change the property of the tool. Does the user
Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report
Great report Flynn, I'm wondering why there are no reactions from the Team. On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 08:09 Flynn Liu via gimp-gui-list < gimp-gui-list@gnome.org> wrote: > Hello, GIMP developers: > > In January 2018, I conducted a user test on GIMP v2.8, as part of a class > project. User testing is the process of having representative users from > your user personas do a task designed by the interviewer. The interviewer > then records breakdowns, situations in which the test participant is able > to follow a sequence of steps toward the final goal, but got stuck at some > point, failing to complete the task. > > I wrote a lot in the original report, but that was not a good way of > communicating. In this email, I will summarize the report. > > I interviewed 5 people. Two of them are part-time photographers who have > 60k+ followers on social media. The other three are STEM students who > occasionally edit images for class projects. I will name them A, B, C, D, > E, respectively. > > Task: consider the photo of a paper cup stack. Select the cup stack and > turn it black-and-white. A rough selection is ok. > > > Issue 1: sub-windows > > > All test participants expressed their confusion regarding the sub-windows > in GIMP v2.8. One of them wondered if they belonged to different programs. > Despite this, all participants started doing the task without changing the > default window layout. At the end, I asked each of them to find an existing > option that “turns everything into one window,” but nobody found it. > Participant A looked into the preferences dialog, did not find the option, > and started browsing all the menubar items. He even opened the “window” > menu, but did not recognize the option. > > > Does the user think of the right thing at the right time (conceptual > model)? > > No. participant C does not understand the default window layout. > Yes. When instructed, participants want to adjust a program state to > accommodate their preferences. > > > Is the action visible? > > Yes. You can see it in the “window” menu. > > > Does the user recognize the action, even if the label is on screen? > > No. All test participants fail to discover this action. They expect this > action to be in “preferences.” > > > Will the user understand the feedback? > > Yes, I believe participants will know the action works as they expect, but > they prefer to have “single-window mode” activated by default. > > > Analysis – why does the breakdown happen? > > Quoting my textbook [1], default values: > - are the initial state of the program. > - are the best values, reflecting the most common use cases you observe. > (Users don’t need to change them.) > Many users don’t change them. > > Being completely new to the software, participants did not change the > default values. Default values did not reflect their expectation. > > > Propose a solution! > > GIMP should be in single-window mode “by default.” > > > Quote your participants! > > - “Don’t have two windows. Use one window for the whole program.” > - “When you open the software, you want to focus on the software. You > don’t want to see gaps everywhere.” > > > Issue 2: accepting invalid input > > > When finding the pen tool, participants D and E first looked at the brush > and texture panel, though it is not required for the task. In GIMP, it is > important to define a selection before using the brush and texture panel. > The panel is active when a path is in the process of being drawn. A > participant interacted with the panel without a well-defined region, but > this action did not change anything in the image, or change the property of > the tool. > > > Does the user think of the right thing at the right time? > > No. The panel lacks a clear title. The participant thinks the panel is > some kind of filter. > > > Does the user understand the feedback? > > No. The panel shows an option is selected, but the option does not make > sense in the current mode. The user expects a grayed-out panel. > > > Analysis – why does the breakdown happen? > > No signifier: the panel (or tab) lacks a title. > No constraint: GIMP accepts input that does not make sense in the current > mode. > > > Propose a solution! > > Give each tab a visible title, in addition to the hover text. You can say: > brush, texture, gradient. > Gray out options that do not make sense in the current mode. When a path > is still being drawn, gray out the brush, texture and gradient panels. > > == > Issue 3: deviation from convention > == > > * By convention, I mean the previous knowledge which the user has acquired > by using other similar software. > > Participant D could not close the path to form an area. She clicked on the > first vertex, but the path did not close. She then dragged the vertices, > hoping to make them “stick” together, but
