Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Mark Morin wrote:

> Photoshop is not the gold standard by which all other programs are to be
> evaluated.

It is. Sadly so.

> One could just as legitimately ask why photoshop's UI is not
> like gimp's

1. Photoshop predates GIMP by 10+ years
2. GIMP contributors specifically copied some of its features in the past.

Would you like to reconsider your point? :)

> Gimp is not nor ever was and never will be a "free version of photoshop."

True.

Alex
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[Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Boxman]

>Good point -whether a user thinks Krita or GIMP is "more like
>PhotoShop"
>might depend on which version of Photoshop they've used. I'm only 
>familiar with one version of PhotoShop, and that's CS2 on Windows.
>Maybe
>PhotoShop on Mac has a substantially different UI, and maybe CC looks 
>substantially different than CS2.
>Another good point. On Photoshop I only ever edited photographs,
>mostly
>starting from a raw file, and never tried to paint using PhotoShop. 
>Maybe Krita's paint tools resemble PhotoShop's paint tools.
>
>Elle

Shortly after I posted last week, I had a medical crisis and ended up in
hospital, so that's the reason I haven't responded to any of these posts over
the last week. As I said, I'm not looking to be unduely critical OF gimp, just
looking for some answers. And no, I'm not saying that I think GIMP should be
more like P'shop. No, I merely expected a similarity of tools that worked in
more or less the same ways. That, I don't think, is unreasonable. Its like as if
you went to the hardware store to buy a hammer but all they had were hammers
with curved handles and thus you had to relearn hammering nails anew. Not
something one would want to be forced to do. The lack of a general purpose
cursor, to my way of thinking, is just that basic and it really threw me for a
loop.

WHY do new users expect expect similarity with P'shop? My guess is that more
users than not are casual users who use it far less than professionals. Indeed,
that is the major attraction of free software; we don't want to pay $600 + for
something used only infrequently and thus we are frustrated to find such a steep
learning curve since money doesn't constitute the only form of investment -
there's the matter of invested time.

I was hoping that there was some sort of basic design philosophy that I was
missing that would, upon learning of it, would ease the transition. Apparently
not. GIMP is merely different not by any conceptual means. I don't see any
reasons for the differences but the reality is that I just have to be patience
and take the time to relearn.

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Elle Stone]

On 02/12/2017 01:02 AM, Joel Rees wrote:

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Elle Stone
 wrote:

[...]
Does anyone have any possible explanations for why different people with a
background using PhotoShop have such wildly diverse reactions to the GIMP
and Krita User Interfaces?


version of Photoshop? OS platform?


Good point -whether a user thinks Krita or GIMP is "more like PhotoShop" 
might depend on which version of Photoshop they've used. I'm only 
familiar with one version of PhotoShop, and that's CS2 on Windows. Maybe 
PhotoShop on Mac has a substantially different UI, and maybe CC looks 
substantially different than CS2.




in addition to user preferences, as you mention.


I'm wondering if people's reactions are linked to GIMP's default
Multi-Window Mode vs Krita's default Single-Window Mode.


in some cases, probably.


I always had PhotoShop configured with the main window as small as possible,
and with a lot of free-floating dockers. So to me GIMP's default
Multi-Window Mode is very comfortable to use (and I don't like Single Window
Mode at all).


Users have a tendency to think the subsection of the UI that they use
most is the app.



Another good point. On Photoshop I only ever edited photographs, mostly 
starting from a raw file, and never tried to paint using PhotoShop. 
Maybe Krita's paint tools resemble PhotoShop's paint tools.


Elle

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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Rick Strong]

They're ALL weird, even Photoshop's latest incarnation.

But at least GIMP has a very helpful list of knowledgeable users that we can 
easily access. No extra charge.


Rick S.

-Original Message- 
From: Joel Rees

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:02 AM
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Elle Stone
<ellest...@ninedegreesbelow.com> wrote:

[...]
Does anyone have any possible explanations for why different people with a
background using PhotoShop have such wildly diverse reactions to the GIMP
and Krita User Interfaces?


version of Photoshop? OS platform?

in addition to user preferences, as you mention.


I'm wondering if people's reactions are linked to GIMP's default
Multi-Window Mode vs Krita's default Single-Window Mode.


in some cases, probably.

I always had PhotoShop configured with the main window as small as 
possible,

and with a lot of free-floating dockers. So to me GIMP's default
Multi-Window Mode is very comfortable to use (and I don't like Single 
Window

Mode at all).


Users have a tendency to think the subsection of the UI that they use
most is the app.

--
Joel Rees

I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Joel Rees]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Elle Stone
 wrote:
> [...]
> Does anyone have any possible explanations for why different people with a
> background using PhotoShop have such wildly diverse reactions to the GIMP
> and Krita User Interfaces?

version of Photoshop? OS platform?

in addition to user preferences, as you mention.

> I'm wondering if people's reactions are linked to GIMP's default
> Multi-Window Mode vs Krita's default Single-Window Mode.

in some cases, probably.

> I always had PhotoShop configured with the main window as small as possible,
> and with a lot of free-floating dockers. So to me GIMP's default
> Multi-Window Mode is very comfortable to use (and I don't like Single Window
> Mode at all).

Users have a tendency to think the subsection of the UI that they use
most is the app.

-- 
Joel Rees

I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Ofnuts]

On 11/02/17 14:58, Boxman wrote:

Man, I'm having trouble understanding the layout of this website and forums, as
well as the design philosophy behind GIMP user interface.
For starters, on the home page its hard to tell what the content is when so much
of it looks like advertisements. Then, on the forums, only bits and pieces of
them are shown. I don't see any display of the overall listing of posts and
responses as we get with other forums. Although I found a longer list of just
post topics, most of them were labled as awaiting moderator approval. Not much
help.

Even in making this post, I got confused at the lack of a "post" button.
Instead, there is a captcha box that looks like an ad directly above a real ad
that has
TWO captcha words in it. Which one am I to use? Took me 4 tries to get it right,
not knowing whether they were case sensitive. Then, outside the box, in tiny
letters is a button "create discussion,"

What I am saying is that it is so radically different that I find it very hard
to use. There must be some point behind the design of layout, but I'm not
getting it. Like GIMP itself, I don't understand why the developers would want
to create something so different from what we are familiar with, and have
invested huge amounts of time learning, so that to use GIMP we now have to
relearn everything we  thought we knew. This situation is really giving me
second thoughts about whether I want to go through with this steep re-education
curve unless there is some great benefit here that I fail to understand.

While I appreciate the huge voluntary effort that made in creating a free app,
and it is not my intention to take anything away from that, I just can't
comprehend why it was done the way it was. It seems to me its radical
differences won't do much to attract new users.



Shameless plug: if you are looking for a more "traditional" Gimp-related 
forum, try: http://gimp-forum.net


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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Pat David]

Elle,

Pat, do you know who actually owns/runs gimpusers.com? There doesn't
seem to be an "about" link anywhere (or else I missed it). Same question
and comment applies to gimpchat.com - I don't see an "about" link.


I don't know who runs gimpusers.com, and gmipchat.com recently changed
owners.


It would be nice if these (and similar) sites would supply a little
clarifying information including a statement about their official or
unofficial relationship with GIMP.


 I agree 100%.  This has been a point of contention in various ways for a
while now but I'm not sure what the best solution would be.

I have some ideas, but I'll need some time a little later to collect them
into something more cohesive...

pat
-- 
Pat David
GPG: 66D1 7CA6 8088 4874 946D  18BD 67C7 6219 89E9 57AC
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Elle Stone]

On 02/11/2017 09:05 AM, Pat David wrote:

This is not a forum, it's a bridge to a traditional mailing list that can
be found here:

https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Or you can use the archives to see threaded conversations:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list


Pat, do you know who actually owns/runs gimpusers.com? There doesn't 
seem to be an "about" link anywhere (or else I missed it). Same question 
and comment applies to gimpchat.com - I don't see an "about" link.


It would be nice if these (and similar) sites would supply a little 
clarifying information including a statement about their official or 
unofficial relationship with GIMP.


Best,
Elle
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Elle Stone]

On 02/11/2017 08:58 AM, Boxman wrote:

Like GIMP itself, I don't understand why the developers would want
to create something so different from what we are familiar with, and have
invested huge amounts of time learning, so that to use GIMP we now have to
relearn everything we  thought we knew.


I used PhotoShop for several years. When I switched to Linux and started 
using GIMP, to me the GIMP UI seemed "just like PhotoShop".


I've heard people say that the Krita UI seems "just like PhotoShop". 
Personally I disagree - I do use Krita as well as GIMP, but it was a 
long rocky road to get used to the Krita interface.


I know a few other people who think the Krita UI is very different from 
the PhotoShop UI. These same people think the GIMP UI is very similar to 
the PhotoShop UI.


Does anyone have any possible explanations for why different people with 
a background using PhotoShop have such wildly diverse reactions to the 
GIMP and Krita User Interfaces?


I'm wondering if people's reactions are linked to GIMP's default 
Multi-Window Mode vs Krita's default Single-Window Mode.


I always had PhotoShop configured with the main window as small as 
possible, and with a lot of free-floating dockers. So to me GIMP's 
default Multi-Window Mode is very comfortable to use (and I don't like 
Single Window Mode at all).


Elle



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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Simon Budig]

Boxman (for...@gimpusers.com) wrote:
> For starters, on the home page its hard to tell what the content is when so 
> much
> of it looks like advertisements. Then, on the forums, only bits and pieces of
> them are shown.

gimpusers.com is not an official gimp forum. In fact on our official web
site there is no forum.

> This situation is really giving me
> second thoughts about whether I want to go through with this steep
> re-education curve unless there is some great benefit here that I fail
> to understand.

Please feel free to stick to your previous solution. If using GIMP is
too much effort for you, then don't. It really is that simple.

Gimp has a long and convoluted history, and it most certainly is not
designed to be a clone of some other tool - since that would be quite
boring for us developers. I consider it good to have different
approachas to the same problem.

And no, that does not mean that we don't want you as a new user - but we
certainly won't force you into unhappiness.

Bye,
Simon

-- 
  si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Pat David]

Typo in the URL: https://www.gimp.org
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:05 AM Pat David  wrote:

> This is not a forum, it's a bridge to a traditional mailing list that can
> be found here:
>
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>
> Or you can use the archives to see threaded conversations:
>
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>
> This website is _not_ run by the official GIMP team - that can be found at
> https://wwe.gimp.org.
>
> I suggest you have a look at the official website and check out the user
> documentation (help) and tutorials there.
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:01 AM Boxman  wrote:
>
> Man, I'm having trouble understanding the layout of this website and
> forums, as
> well as the design philosophy behind GIMP user interface.
> For starters, on the home page its hard to tell what the content is when
> so much
> of it looks like advertisements. Then, on the forums, only bits and pieces
> of
> them are shown. I don't see any display of the overall listing of posts and
> responses as we get with other forums. Although I found a longer list of
> just
> post topics, most of them were labled as awaiting moderator approval. Not
> much
> help.
>
> Even in making this post, I got confused at the lack of a "post" button.
> Instead, there is a captcha box that looks like an ad directly above a
> real ad
> that has
> TWO captcha words in it. Which one am I to use? Took me 4 tries to get it
> right,
> not knowing whether they were case sensitive. Then, outside the box, in
> tiny
> letters is a button "create discussion,"
>
> What I am saying is that it is so radically different that I find it very
> hard
> to use. There must be some point behind the design of layout, but I'm not
> getting it. Like GIMP itself, I don't understand why the developers would
> want
> to create something so different from what we are familiar with, and have
> invested huge amounts of time learning, so that to use GIMP we now have to
> relearn everything we  thought we knew. This situation is really giving me
> second thoughts about whether I want to go through with this steep
> re-education
> curve unless there is some great benefit here that I fail to understand.
>
> While I appreciate the huge voluntary effort that made in creating a free
> app,
> and it is not my intention to take anything away from that, I just can't
> comprehend why it was done the way it was. It seems to me its radical
> differences won't do much to attract new users.
>
> --
> Boxman (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
> ___
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
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>
> --
> Pat David
> GPG: 66D1 7CA6 8088 4874 946D  18BD 67C7 6219 89E9 57AC
>
-- 
Pat David
GPG: 66D1 7CA6 8088 4874 946D  18BD 67C7 6219 89E9 57AC
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Re: [Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Pat David]

This is not a forum, it's a bridge to a traditional mailing list that can
be found here:

https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Or you can use the archives to see threaded conversations:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list

This website is _not_ run by the official GIMP team - that can be found at
https://wwe.gimp.org.

I suggest you have a look at the official website and check out the user
documentation (help) and tutorials there.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:01 AM Boxman  wrote:

> Man, I'm having trouble understanding the layout of this website and
> forums, as
> well as the design philosophy behind GIMP user interface.
> For starters, on the home page its hard to tell what the content is when
> so much
> of it looks like advertisements. Then, on the forums, only bits and pieces
> of
> them are shown. I don't see any display of the overall listing of posts and
> responses as we get with other forums. Although I found a longer list of
> just
> post topics, most of them were labled as awaiting moderator approval. Not
> much
> help.
>
> Even in making this post, I got confused at the lack of a "post" button.
> Instead, there is a captcha box that looks like an ad directly above a
> real ad
> that has
> TWO captcha words in it. Which one am I to use? Took me 4 tries to get it
> right,
> not knowing whether they were case sensitive. Then, outside the box, in
> tiny
> letters is a button "create discussion,"
>
> What I am saying is that it is so radically different that I find it very
> hard
> to use. There must be some point behind the design of layout, but I'm not
> getting it. Like GIMP itself, I don't understand why the developers would
> want
> to create something so different from what we are familiar with, and have
> invested huge amounts of time learning, so that to use GIMP we now have to
> relearn everything we  thought we knew. This situation is really giving me
> second thoughts about whether I want to go through with this steep
> re-education
> curve unless there is some great benefit here that I fail to understand.
>
> While I appreciate the huge voluntary effort that made in creating a free
> app,
> and it is not my intention to take anything away from that, I just can't
> comprehend why it was done the way it was. It seems to me its radical
> differences won't do much to attract new users.
>
> --
> Boxman (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
> ___
> gimp-user-list mailing list
> List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
>
-- 
Pat David
GPG: 66D1 7CA6 8088 4874 946D  18BD 67C7 6219 89E9 57AC
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[Gimp-user] Weird forum and layout

[Boxman]

Man, I'm having trouble understanding the layout of this website and forums, as
well as the design philosophy behind GIMP user interface.
For starters, on the home page its hard to tell what the content is when so much
of it looks like advertisements. Then, on the forums, only bits and pieces of
them are shown. I don't see any display of the overall listing of posts and
responses as we get with other forums. Although I found a longer list of just
post topics, most of them were labled as awaiting moderator approval. Not much
help.

Even in making this post, I got confused at the lack of a "post" button.
Instead, there is a captcha box that looks like an ad directly above a real ad
that has
TWO captcha words in it. Which one am I to use? Took me 4 tries to get it right,
not knowing whether they were case sensitive. Then, outside the box, in tiny
letters is a button "create discussion,"

What I am saying is that it is so radically different that I find it very hard
to use. There must be some point behind the design of layout, but I'm not
getting it. Like GIMP itself, I don't understand why the developers would want
to create something so different from what we are familiar with, and have
invested huge amounts of time learning, so that to use GIMP we now have to
relearn everything we  thought we knew. This situation is really giving me
second thoughts about whether I want to go through with this steep re-education
curve unless there is some great benefit here that I fail to understand.

While I appreciate the huge voluntary effort that made in creating a free app,
and it is not my intention to take anything away from that, I just can't
comprehend why it was done the way it was. It seems to me its radical
differences won't do much to attract new users.

-- 
Boxman (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
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