Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[Konstantin Khomoutov]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2017 12:14:54 -0800 (PST)
Hugh Gleaves  wrote:

> I'd like to see a forum is all I mean, the format interaction and
> usability are weak in mailing lists, IRC is ancient and StackOverflow
> is not confined to Git.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> https://forums.asp.net/
> 
> https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/sqlserver/en-US/home?category=sqlserver
> 
> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/
> 
> These are just better UIs and more friendly that these other
> character oriented systems - IMHO

That's fine until you have 2-3 forums to participate on.

I'm subscibed to more than a dozen of mailing lists, and _then_ it's
apparent that forums would just not scale to that degree for me --
emails are way simpler to wield then: you get notification of someone's
post right into your inbox and then you just reply to it right away.
No need to log into some (usually crappy, and -- which is worse --
different for different forums) web interface to respond, you just do
that.  All sensible MUAs show you threads you're participating in using
nice tree views with read/unread state of messages.

And as to "accessible" interfaces for asking about Git, just check out
the Git tag at SO [1] -- there are gazillions of idiotic questions
getting asked and answered each day.  I once get bored and answered
there a question titled "How to log first 10 in Git?" -- a question,
an answer to it could be obtained by searching in the `git log` manual
page for some 30 seconds, -- and guess what? it became the most upvoted
answer among all my answers on SO :-)

Your passage about character-oriented systems, I cannot comprehend --
aren't we exchange text messages no matter whether this happens on a
mailing list or a web-based forum?

1. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/git

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[AD S]

On Tuesday, February 7, 2017 at 8:02:08 AM UTC+10, Hugh Gleaves wrote:
>
> My position here is that I do not think Git does a good job of promoting 
> itself.
>
> It uses terminology that confuses newcomers because things with names like 
> "checkout" don't quite mean what they mean in other systems.
>
> Far too much educational material, books and documentation is command line 
> oriented and this is off-putting for many.
>

I totally agree with this.

I've tried to 'crack' it many times. I can understand the basics absolutely 
fine, but as soon as something out of the ordinary happens I'm completely 
lost. I don't know the correct terminology to Google the solution. If I do 
find something that sounds similar to my situation, then the solution is 
way beyond my level and though I try I stuff it up and make an even bigger 
mess. I've been through so many rabbit holes of endless Googling.

I've been stuck at this level for months now - there seems to be a huge 
leap between knowing the basics to the next level of understanding. It 
feels like the difference in learning a few phrases of another language one 
day then all of a sudden being forced to have in-depth conversations the 
next.

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[Hugh Gleaves]

My position here is that I do not think Git does a good job of promoting 
itself.

It uses terminology that confuses newcomers because things with names like 
"checkout" don't quite mean what they mean in other systems.

Far too much educational material, books and documentation is command line 
oriented and this is off-putting for many.

I think Git has a nice elegance about it, here's why:


   - The entire repo is present on a developer's machine, all history etc.
   - Branches are trivial to create and use locally.
   - Staging enables one to selectively commit changes and improve how 
   changes are seen by others.
   - Branches really are just named pointers.
   - Stashes are a nice purely local convenience (and they're just commits 
   under the hood).
   - Rebasing is a huge benefit for developers when keeping up to date with 
   other changes.
   - The Github fork model is superb giving each developer a remote backup 
   of their work.



On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 1:47:22 PM UTC-7, theProphet wrote:
>
> I can't verify this, and I'm telling you from gut instinct-- not 
> thorough analysis, but I think the git architecture is just not very 
> tight.  SVN sorta made the first stab at making a CVS clone and it 
> included a tight architecture for atomic writes and a well-established 
> (Apache) web-backend for handling multiple coders using 
> well-established protocols. 
>
> Personally I found a lot of questions with git that makes it 
> untrustworthy for enterprise coding, IMO.  I would get a license for 
> SVN from Tigris, use a conversion tool for transferring your repo, and 
> try that. 
>
> Marxos 
>
>
> On 2/6/17, Hugh Gleaves  wrote: 
> > I'd like to see a forum is all I mean, the format interaction and 
> usability 
> > 
> > are weak in mailing lists, IRC is ancient and StackOverflow is not 
> confined 
> > 
> > to Git. 
> > 
> > e.g. 
> > 
> > https://forums.asp.net/ 
> > 
> > 
> https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/sqlserver/en-US/home?category=sqlserver
>  
> > 
> > http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/ 
> > 
> > These are just better UIs and more friendly that these other character 
> > oriented systems - IMHO 
> > 
> > 
> > On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 12:26:20 PM UTC-7, Magnus Therning wrote: 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Hugh Gleaves  writes: 
> >> 
> >> > SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less 
> >> > confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of 
> >> > time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need 
> >> > to use command line. 
> >> 
> >> That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command 
> >> line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI. 
> >> For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different 
> >> strokes for different folks ;) 
> >> 
> >> > Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github 
> >> > don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and 
> >> > Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where 
> everyone 
> >> > and anyone using Git can get answers to questions. 
> >> 
> >> There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you 
> >> want? 
> >> 
> >> /M 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39 
> >> email: mag...@therning.orgjabber: mag...@therning.org 
> >>  
> >> twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus 
> >> 
> >> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. 
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
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> > "Git for human beings" group. 
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> > 
>

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[\0xDynamite]

I can't verify this, and I'm telling you from gut instinct-- not
thorough analysis, but I think the git architecture is just not very
tight.  SVN sorta made the first stab at making a CVS clone and it
included a tight architecture for atomic writes and a well-established
(Apache) web-backend for handling multiple coders using
well-established protocols.

Personally I found a lot of questions with git that makes it
untrustworthy for enterprise coding, IMO.  I would get a license for
SVN from Tigris, use a conversion tool for transferring your repo, and
try that.

Marxos


On 2/6/17, Hugh Gleaves  wrote:
> I'd like to see a forum is all I mean, the format interaction and usability
>
> are weak in mailing lists, IRC is ancient and StackOverflow is not confined
>
> to Git.
>
> e.g.
>
> https://forums.asp.net/
>
> https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/sqlserver/en-US/home?category=sqlserver
>
> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/
>
> These are just better UIs and more friendly that these other character
> oriented systems - IMHO
>
>
> On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 12:26:20 PM UTC-7, Magnus Therning wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hugh Gleaves  writes:
>>
>> > SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less
>> > confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of
>> > time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need
>> > to use command line.
>>
>> That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command
>> line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI.
>> For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different
>> strokes for different folks ;)
>>
>> > Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github
>> > don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and
>> > Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where everyone
>> > and anyone using Git can get answers to questions.
>>
>> There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you
>> want?
>>
>> /M
>>
>> --
>> Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39
>> email: mag...@therning.orgjabber: mag...@therning.org
>> 
>> twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus
>>
>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
>>
>
> --
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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[Hugh Gleaves]

I'd like to see a forum is all I mean, the format interaction and usability 
are weak in mailing lists, IRC is ancient and StackOverflow is not confined 
to Git.

e.g.

https://forums.asp.net/

https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/sqlserver/en-US/home?category=sqlserver

http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/

These are just better UIs and more friendly that these other character 
oriented systems - IMHO


On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 12:26:20 PM UTC-7, Magnus Therning wrote:
>
>
> Hugh Gleaves  writes: 
>
> > SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less 
> > confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of 
> > time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need 
> > to use command line. 
>
> That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command 
> line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI. 
> For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different 
> strokes for different folks ;) 
>
> > Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github 
> > don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and 
> > Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where everyone 
> > and anyone using Git can get answers to questions. 
>
> There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you 
> want? 
>
> /M 
>
> -- 
> Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39 
> email: mag...@therning.orgjabber: mag...@therning.org 
>  
> twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus 
>
> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. 
>

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[Hugh Gleaves]

That's fine and I have no argument against using the CLI.

However there is no *need* to use the CLI most of the time, you can devise 
and follow a workflow that almost never requires the CLI, many developers 
living in an IDE will appreciate this and be more productive, I can 
honestly say that the CLI clouded my understanding of Git initially and 
this is partly due to the unfriendly way the many commands are documented.

I just think it's not good for Git adoption to compel users to use the CLI, 
this can alienate them and make Git an explicit part of their work rather 
than an implicit, enabling them to focus on their work.



On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 12:33:30 PM UTC-7, John McKown wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Magnus Therning  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Hugh Gleaves  writes:
>>
>> > SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less
>> > confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of
>> > time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need
>> > to use command line.
>>
>> That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command
>> line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI.
>> For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different
>> strokes for different folks ;)
>>
>
> ​I like to use the CLI as much as possible. Mainly because I like to 
> "script" things. Scripting a GUI is a PITA. GUI are very nice for people 
> who don't really want or need to become an "expert". But doing everything 
> in a GUI tends to (I think) make people "lazy" so that they don't really 
> become interested in the "underpinning". Which may be just fine for most 
> programmers. They need to have a good knowledge of their application domain 
> and the tools & languages to write & debug application code​. Much like I 
> am with a car - I know how to drive & how to put gas into it. I don't even 
> change my own oil. And I don't really care what the embedded computer is 
> doing so long as I get where I want to go.
>
>  
>
>>
>> > Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github
>> > don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and
>> > Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where everyone
>> > and anyone using Git can get answers to questions.
>>
>> There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you
>> want?
>>
>> /M
>>
>> --
>> Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39
>> email: mag...@therning.orgjabber: mag...@therning.org 
>> 
>> twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus
>>
>> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Git for human beings" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to git-users+...@googlegroups.com .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Our calculus classes are an integral part of your education.
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[John McKown]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Magnus Therning  wrote:

>
> Hugh Gleaves  writes:
>
> > SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less
> > confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of
> > time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need
> > to use command line.
>
> That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command
> line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI.
> For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different
> strokes for different folks ;)
>

​I like to use the CLI as much as possible. Mainly because I like to
"script" things. Scripting a GUI is a PITA. GUI are very nice for people
who don't really want or need to become an "expert". But doing everything
in a GUI tends to (I think) make people "lazy" so that they don't really
become interested in the "underpinning". Which may be just fine for most
programmers. They need to have a good knowledge of their application domain
and the tools & languages to write & debug application code​. Much like I
am with a car - I know how to drive & how to put gas into it. I don't even
change my own oil. And I don't really care what the embedded computer is
doing so long as I get where I want to go.



>
> > Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github
> > don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and
> > Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where everyone
> > and anyone using Git can get answers to questions.
>
> There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you
> want?
>
> /M
>
> --
> Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39
> email: mag...@therning.org   jabber: mag...@therning.org
> twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus
>
> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Git for human beings" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>



-- 
Our calculus classes are an integral part of your education.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[Magnus Therning]

Hugh Gleaves  writes:

> SmartGit is the best way to begin working with Git, it is much less
> confusing that the (poorly explained) command line stuff, plenty of
> time for command line later, most developers here rarely if ever need
> to use command line.

That may be true for some, but not all. Personally I found the command
line, augmented with some aliases, *much* easier to grasp than any GUI.
For me it was the same with CVS, SVN, P4, Mercurial, TLA, ... different
strokes for different folks ;)

> Finally I'm astonished that there is no Git forum out there, Github
> don't provide one and Git itself is archaic (mailing lists) and
> Syntervo rely on this Google group, we need a Git forum where everyone
> and anyone using Git can get answers to questions.

There's this email list, IRC and stack overflow, what other fora do you
want?

/M

--
Magnus Therning  OpenPGP: 0x927912051716CE39
email: mag...@therning.org   jabber: mag...@therning.org
twitter: magthe   http://therning.org/magnus

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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Re: [git-users] Re: Noob question: In a large company setting, is it normal to spend 3+ hours a day sorting out git issues?

[AD S]

Am I using the Github Web interface?

Apart from checking that my files are up there, no I don't. Some people 
here do use it to peer-review code and leave comments against parts of the 
files, though.




>
> Now, I see that you are using both local repositories and github 
> repositories. Are you also using the github web interface? 
>
> --- 
> Entertaining minecraft videos 
> http://YouTube.com/keybounce 
>
>

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