Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Il giorno mer, 11/02/2009 alle 09.44 -0500, William Jon McCann ha scritto: When we move to git immediately after 2.26.0 I trust that everyone will be informed and ready to tackle the workflow changes that result. I suggest that instead of continuing this conversation we focus on making sure we're ready. William, sorry if this could appear a blackmail, but IMHO this plan of you is very un-polite for all GNOME community, so I think if you will move gnome-screensaver to git *before* the DVCS decision (if I'm right by now git is only an option, not the final choice) I'll ask to remove it from the list of GNOME Desktop modules. In the past years we have hard worked in order to have *all* *official* GNOME Desktop Platform modules stored on the same repository (see for example mousetweaks or hamster-applet), not only for translators' sake, but for entire GNOME community. Do you like git? OK, *by now* it's a *your* choice, not a *community* choice. Start to develop on a separate, private git tree and frequently update the official module on svn, like the empathy team is currently doing. Respectfully[1] , Luca. [1] but little shocked for recent I'm myself and I don't care about GNOME community rules events :( ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Frederic Peters fpet...@gnome.org wrote: Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. Clearly, Jon can do whatever he wants with gnome-screensaver. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and gnome-screensaver may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. But still ultimatively Jons decision... Mathias, I have to disagree with that. GNOME is not an individualistic project but a group effort. For that reason, GNOME has a release process and the modules part of GNOME core (the various suites) have to follow the release process. Switching VCS like that, on the fly, is a disruption in this process. Even more when done in the middle of a release cycle. I see that Jon addressed the issue, but I just wanted emphasis how wrong your message was. And yes I'm eager to see GNOME move to git. Hub, who is not part of the release team. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
On 2/12/09, Luca Ferretti elle@libero.it wrote: Il giorno mer, 11/02/2009 alle 09.44 -0500, William Jon McCann ha scritto: When we move to git immediately after 2.26.0 I trust that everyone will be informed and ready to tackle the workflow changes that result. I suggest that instead of continuing this conversation we focus on making sure we're ready. William, sorry if this could appear a blackmail, but IMHO this plan of you is very un-polite for all GNOME community, so I think if you will move gnome-screensaver to git *before* the DVCS decision (if I'm right by now git is only an option, not the final choice) I'll ask to remove it from the list of GNOME Desktop modules. In the past years we have hard worked in order to have *all* *official* GNOME Desktop Platform modules stored on the same repository (see for example mousetweaks or hamster-applet), not only for translators' sake, but for entire GNOME community. Do you like git? OK, *by now* it's a *your* choice, not a *community* choice. Start to develop on a separate, private git tree and frequently update the official module on svn, like the empathy team is currently doing. Respectfully[1] , Luca. [1] but little shocked for recent I'm myself and I don't care about GNOME community rules events :( Reading up on this heated thread, here's my take on it. There are some non-arguable fundamental facts about any free software development. One of the most fundamental facts is this: 1) The maintainer of a project/module may do whatever he likes with it. However, there have always been some fundamental requirements we (the GNOME Translation Project) have required from modules officially included in GNOME. I don't know if they have been encarved into stone or sent out into space yet, but anyone who has ever followed GNOME release engineering and new module discussions closely, should be familiar with them. Some of the requirements include: 2) Translators with an account should have access to all modules officially part of GNOME. 3) All modules officially part of GNOME should be kept in *the same* GNOME repository. That last one is equally important. GNOME translators translate several hundreds of modules, and many translators need quick access to many, many of those modules on a daily basis in order to update translations. Using and remembering different workflows for each and every one of the modules would be a nightmare, so we require the workflow be the same for each module (with some extremely few exceptions for directory layout in some exceptional modules). But the one repository requirement has always been the same. The one repository to rule them all used to be cvs.gnome.org, now it is svn.gnome.org, and maybe in the not too distant future it will be git.gnome.org. However, the change to a git.gnome.org would require a Release Team decision on which DVCS GNOME should use, and a planned cutover date for the *whole* repository. The planned cutover date is because we would need to communicate the change, and carefully update all scripts and documentation, in time for the cutover date. *All* modules would need to be migrated at the same date, otherwise we have a script/documentation nightmare. Of course most of this situation is the same for the GNOME Documentation Project. So until the Release Team has decided on a DVCS for *all* of GNOME, and has announced a planned cutover date, and the cutover has happened, *no* core GNOME module should be removed from, or closed for commits, on svn.gnome.org. If a module maintainer wants to use a different repo in the mean time, fine, but then a requirement would be that they automatically sync *all* the changes in the module both back and forward with svn.gnome.org in the mean time. Unless you can reliably do all that synchronization automatically, you are *not* allowed to move. I have all the respect for module maintainers and their freedom to do whatever they like with their module. But at the same time, being part of GNOME is a stamp of approval of which there follows some real hard requirements, both in terms of software but also in release engineering and version control. So, if some core GNOME module jumps the gun and switches to a repository other than svn.gnome.org before the date of the Release Team mandated big project-wide repository cutover for all of GNOME, I would formally request of the Release Team to immediately *remove* that module/project from the list of software included in GNOME. Period. This is of course all speaking with my formal GNOME Translation Project Spokesperson hat on. Christian ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
El jue, 12-02-2009 a las 12:30 +0100, Luca Ferretti escribió: [1] but little shocked for recent I'm myself and I don't care about GNOME community rules events :( I think the most important thing to learn from these events is that when you delay a community-based decision so long, people start making decision on their own and moving forward. It is completely understandable that some maintainers may get tired of waiting for a decision from the community and simply decide what they think it's best for their own projects, even if this may eventually hurt other parts of the process. If we as a community can't agree on something like this and move forward, we will be facing the risk of fragmentation over and over again. Let's not allow this to happen and let's make a decision soon. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra csaave...@gnome.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Matthias, I found it quite shocking to hear a statement like this from a member of the release team: 2009-02-11 klockan 02:19 skrev Matthias Clasen: Clearly, $maintainer can do whatever he wants with $project. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and $project may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. It almost looks like you don't seem to care about i18n at all. Gnome is for all people, and not all people speak English. i18n has always been a strong focus of the Gnome project, and I hope this will stay the same in the future. That said, I'd like to see these questions answered: 1. Did you speak for yourself, or did you speak on behalf of the release team when you were making this totally objectionable statement? 2. What do other release team members think about this? Is this the new policy? If so, who decided this? Is this documented somewhere? I hereby invite other release team members to share their opinion in this thread. — Wouter signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Am Mittwoch, den 11.02.2009, 12:49 +0100 schrieb Wouter Bolsterlee: That said, I'd like to see these questions answered: 1. Did you speak for yourself, or did you speak on behalf of the release team when you were making this totally objectionable statement? 2. What do other release team members think about this? Is this the new policy? If so, who decided this? Is this documented somewhere? This is currently not the position of the entire release-team (though the This is a very interpretable term here, and I do use the word currently by purpose). A workflow for translators should be defined and documented before core GNOME modules with translatable strings move to any potential new vcs system, but this has been internally discussed already... andre -- mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Wouter Bolsterlee 1. Did you speak for yourself, or did you speak on behalf of the release team when you were making this totally objectionable statement? I always speak for myself, unless I make a release team announcement. I haven't given up my rights to voicing an opinion when I agreed to help out with release team work. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Hey, On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Wouter Bolsterlee wbols...@gnome.org wrote: Matthias, I found it quite shocking to hear a statement like this from a member of the release team: 2009-02-11 klockan 02:19 skrev Matthias Clasen: Clearly, $maintainer can do whatever he wants with $project. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and $project may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. It almost looks like you don't seem to care about i18n at all. Gnome is for all people, and not all people speak English. i18n has always been a strong focus of the Gnome project, and I hope this will stay the same in the future. That said, I'd like to see these questions answered: 1. Did you speak for yourself, or did you speak on behalf of the release team when you were making this totally objectionable statement? 2. What do other release team members think about this? Is this the new policy? If so, who decided this? Is this documented somewhere? I hereby invite other release team members to share their opinion in this thread. I don't think there is any need to get hysterical. It seems to me that what Matthias says is true. I am free to do (almost) anything I want with my project. However, because of the beauty of our license - so are you! Some reasons that I agreed to move gnome-screensaver to git included: translators would still have ssh access to commit, there was already a git guide for translators on the wiki/web. However, after I was told that translators weren't prepared to make this adjustment and faced with the prospect of doing more work to manually merge translations into git myself, I agreed to move back to svn. When we move to git immediately after 2.26.0 I trust that everyone will be informed and ready to tackle the workflow changes that result. I suggest that instead of continuing this conversation we focus on making sure we're ready. Thanks, Jon ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Hi, William Jon McCann mcc...@jhu.edu, Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:44:49 -0500: I don't think there is any need to get hysterical. It seems to me that what Matthias says is true. I am free to do (almost) anything I want with my project. You may act as a demiurge but then you can't expect translators to be much willing to contribute to your ego, err, project. And so your project loses. Be nice and helpful to them and your project wins. However, because of the beauty of our license - so are you! Hypothetically speaking, yes. Some reasons that I agreed to move gnome-screensaver to git included: translators would still have ssh access to commit, there was already a git guide for translators on the wiki/web. However, after I was told that translators weren't prepared to make this adjustment and faced with the prospect of doing more work to manually merge translations into git myself, I agreed to move back to svn. And so you're being nice, that's great. When we move to git immediately after 2.26.0 I trust that everyone will be informed and ready to tackle the workflow changes that result. I suggest that instead of continuing this conversation we focus on making sure we're ready. Translators will be ready if maintainers send the appropriate message in time. Then everything will be OK, no doubt. Best regards, Petr Kovar ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: R-T doesn't care about i18n? (was: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver)
Hi, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com, Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:22:58 -0500: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Wouter Bolsterlee 1. Did you speak for yourself, or did you speak on behalf of the release team when you were making this totally objectionable statement? I always speak for myself, unless I make a release team announcement. I haven't given up my rights to voicing an opinion when I agreed to help out with release team work. Then your personal opinion seems to contradict one of the important GNOME goals, to deliver high level software i18n l10n. Regards, Petr Kovar ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
I also had the same svn lock :( William you are listed in MAINTAINERS file, do you know anything about this? Cheers, El dt 10 de 02 de 2009 a les 07:47 +0200, en/na Александър Шопов va escriure: When I do the following: $ cd gnome-screensaver/po $ svn info Path: . URL: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver/trunk/po Repository Root: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver Repository UUID: 6cc035ca-e325-0410-8d2b-9ec74377d5dd Revision: 1598 Node Kind: directory Schedule: normal Last Changed Author: chliao Last Changed Rev: 1598 Last Changed Date: 2009-02-06 16:01:52 +0200 (пт, 06 фев 2009) $ svn ci ChangeLog bg.po -m `head -5 ChangeLog` I get the following: SendingChangeLog Sendingbg.po Transmitting file data ..svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: Can't open file '/svn/gnome-screensaver/db/txn-current-lock': Permission denied Any idea what is the problem and how to fix it? Kind regards: al_shopov ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- gil forcada [ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer [en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network bloc: http://gil.badall.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Hi Gil, gnome-screensaver has moved to git. I've updated the jhbuild config now. Sorry for not letting you know sooner. Thanks, Jon On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Gil Forcada gforc...@gnome.org wrote: I also had the same svn lock :( William you are listed in MAINTAINERS file, do you know anything about this? Cheers, El dt 10 de 02 de 2009 a les 07:47 +0200, en/na Александър Шопов va escriure: When I do the following: $ cd gnome-screensaver/po $ svn info Path: . URL: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver/trunk/po Repository Root: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver Repository UUID: 6cc035ca-e325-0410-8d2b-9ec74377d5dd Revision: 1598 Node Kind: directory Schedule: normal Last Changed Author: chliao Last Changed Rev: 1598 Last Changed Date: 2009-02-06 16:01:52 +0200 (пт, 06 фев 2009) $ svn ci ChangeLog bg.po -m `head -5 ChangeLog` I get the following: SendingChangeLog Sendingbg.po Transmitting file data ..svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: Can't open file '/svn/gnome-screensaver/db/txn-current-lock': Permission denied Any idea what is the problem and how to fix it? Kind regards: al_shopov ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- gil forcada [ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer [en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network bloc: http://gil.badall.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Le mardi 10 février 2009 à 10:51 -0500, William Jon McCann a écrit : Hi Gil, gnome-screensaver has moved to git. I've updated the jhbuild config now. Sorry for not letting you know sooner. Is it now admitted that maintainers of core GNOME modules can freely choose their VCS? Is it a discussion/decision I missed somewhere? Is the release-team totally aware of this move? What is the plan regarding i18n? Claude (yes, a little shocked :-) ) On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Gil Forcada gforc...@gnome.org wrote: I also had the same svn lock :( William you are listed in MAINTAINERS file, do you know anything about this? Cheers, El dt 10 de 02 de 2009 a les 07:47 +0200, en/na Александър Шопов va escriure: When I do the following: $ cd gnome-screensaver/po $ svn info Path: . URL: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver/trunk/po Repository Root: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver Repository UUID: 6cc035ca-e325-0410-8d2b-9ec74377d5dd Revision: 1598 Node Kind: directory Schedule: normal Last Changed Author: chliao Last Changed Rev: 1598 Last Changed Date: 2009-02-06 16:01:52 +0200 (пт, 06 фев 2009) $ svn ci ChangeLog bg.po -m `head -5 ChangeLog` I get the following: SendingChangeLog Sendingbg.po Transmitting file data ..svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: Can't open file '/svn/gnome-screensaver/db/txn-current-lock': Permission denied Any idea what is the problem and how to fix it? Kind regards: al_shopov ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- gil forcada [ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer [en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network bloc: http://gil.badall.net ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Le mardi 10 février 2009, à 17:24 +0100, Claude Paroz a écrit : Le mardi 10 février 2009 à 10:51 -0500, William Jon McCann a écrit : Hi Gil, gnome-screensaver has moved to git. I've updated the jhbuild config now. Sorry for not letting you know sooner. Is it now admitted that maintainers of core GNOME modules can freely choose their VCS? Is it a discussion/decision I missed somewhere? Is the release-team totally aware of this move? What is the plan regarding i18n? Don't know about the other release team members, but I wasn't aware of this. At this moment, it's not an option for any official GNOME module to move to git: this totally breaks the workflow of at least translators, just before 2.26.0. I'm pretty sure we didn't complete all tasks required for such a migration to happen (eg, do we have correct documentation?). So, please revert this migration for gnome-screensaver. cc'ing gnome-infrastructure so that similar migrations for official GNOME modules are blocked. (fwiw, it's fine to have other modules like gnome-shell in git) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Vincent Untz wrote: Is it now admitted that maintainers of core GNOME modules can freely choose their VCS? Is it a discussion/decision I missed somewhere? Is the release-team totally aware of this move? What is the plan regarding i18n? Don't know about the other release team members, but I wasn't aware of this. I wasn't aware; actually I asked Owen just today about gnome-shell commit messages to svn-commits-list@ and he said he wanted to improve them; it was fine for me considering gnome-shell as a testing ground for the unannounced and undecided (but inevitable) git migration. Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. Cheers, Frederic ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
I wrote. Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. s/fuck/screw/ Sorry for the bad language, Frederic ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Frederic Peters fpet...@gnome.org wrote: Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. Clearly, Jon can do whatever he wants with gnome-screensaver. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and gnome-screensaver may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. But still ultimatively Jons decision... Fwiw, Glib and GTK+ will likely move to git as soon as the next stable releases are done. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
Hey, On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Frederic Peters fpet...@gnome.org wrote: Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. Clearly, Jon can do whatever he wants with gnome-screensaver. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and gnome-screensaver may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. But still ultimatively Jons decision... Fwiw, Glib and GTK+ will likely move to git as soon as the next stable releases are done. We've moved it back to svn for now. But it sounds like we'll be moving to git immediately following the 2.26.0 release. Jon ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 20:19 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Frederic Peters fpet...@gnome.org wrote: Pretty please, this is sensible ground, this is not the place to fuck up things not communicating. Clearly, Jon can do whatever he wants with gnome-screensaver. Its his code, and he is the maintainer. If that means translators have a some difficulties, and gnome-screensaver may be less perfectly translated than it used to, thats unfortunate. But still ultimatively Jons decision... Fwiw, Glib and GTK+ will likely move to git as soon as the next stable releases are done. We have a very long-standing policy that modules in our release set must be hosted in Gnome Subversion. Before Subversion, we had a very long-standing policy that they must be in Gnome CVS. Yes, maintainers are the ultimate decision makers with respect to their modules, but we do place restrictions on them if they want their modules to be a part of Gnome. They have to follow our schedule and respect our freezes. They have to use the same version control system and bug tracker as the rest of us. Ultimately, of course, anybody has the right to take their project (or somebody else's) and put it in whatever version control system they want. But what's included in the Gnome release is what comes out of Gnome SVN. And, mind you, this is being sent from somebody who is very much looking forward to Gnome using Git. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Problem with committing to gnome-screensaver
When I do the following: $ cd gnome-screensaver/po $ svn info Path: . URL: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver/trunk/po Repository Root: svn+ssh://al_sho...@svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-screensaver Repository UUID: 6cc035ca-e325-0410-8d2b-9ec74377d5dd Revision: 1598 Node Kind: directory Schedule: normal Last Changed Author: chliao Last Changed Rev: 1598 Last Changed Date: 2009-02-06 16:01:52 +0200 (пт, 06 фев 2009) $ svn ci ChangeLog bg.po -m `head -5 ChangeLog` I get the following: SendingChangeLog Sendingbg.po Transmitting file data ..svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: Can't open file '/svn/gnome-screensaver/db/txn-current-lock': Permission denied Any idea what is the problem and how to fix it? Kind regards: al_shopov ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
