Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
nipponm...@firemail.cc writes: > I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night > filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, you > know lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your > suit. As far as I can tell, I received this on the gnu-misc-discuss mailing list. I think it is necessary to say that I find this kind of racist commentary abhorrent. I hope that others feel the same way. Ian
Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 07:07:11 +, nipponm...@firemail.cc wrote: > I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night > filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, you know > lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your suit. This racist language is not acceptable on this list. -- Mike Gerwitz Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B 2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
Le lundi 24 février 2020, 15:57:39 CET Ludovic Courtès a écrit : > Ian Lance Taylor skribis: > > nipponm...@firemail.cc writes: > >> I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night > >> filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, > >> you > >> know lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your > >> suit. > > > > As far as I can tell, I received this on the gnu-misc-discuss mailing > > list. > > > > I think it is necessary to say that I find this kind of racist > > commentary abhorrent. > > > > I hope that others feel the same way. I didn’t received that mail… is that crossposting? > I feel the same, it’s terrible that such messages are tolerated. > We should stand up against that. I must say that, I was first shocked. But as that feeling is rare to me, I found that interesting and reflected… It was likely, as a french, by not being used to that (afaik it’s not illegal in the US, I don’t know how common it is)… so is that how it passed moderation? and wait… this looks *unambiguously* racist… but is it an insult? it is not… so this is an interesting case. Is that *why* it passed moderation? So I did read again the GKCD, and it says everybody is accepted (even “encouraged to contribute”) whatever the demographics, etc. it says “race” (whatever it means), “ethnic group” (more precise, maybe too much, I know what it means but not when it applies ^^'), “religion” (okay this is clear but knowing enough personally people to know when it applies is trickier), “cultural background” (actually the same, thinking of it)… but it doesn’t talk about “racism”. I then read again your Code of Conduct, and it doesn’t forbid racism neither. So what in case of “positive” racism? or self-interiorized racism? what about someone who someone has good characteristics because of biological race, or who believe she has personal problems for racist reasons? She’s not insulting anyone else. She’s not making people unwelcome, she’s not necessarily hingering contributions… Moreover… what is racism anyway? I saw several right-wing people twist its original definition so that they can term any opposition to nationalism as “anti-white racism”. Which is easy as in my country the liberal commonsense meaning is taken to colorblindly mean “ignoring any differences about races” (like a lot of people feel like the word “black” about a person is to be somewhat racist, so they don’t use it, and when they need it too much they use the english word “black” (because english looks “cooler” to them)), or it is even stretched so much sometimes that I already saw people to qualify “hatred against LGBTs” as “racism”. This is even trickier as these kind of stuff pretty much change across countries… So okay there are a lot of people based in the US within GNU, but also many not… and if “endorsement” or “racism” becomes important… what about when it gets more ambiguous? what is someone is a nazi white supremacist *outside GNU*? will some day every maintainer be policed according their personal views on the israelopalestinian conflict? https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#29_May_2019_(Experience_of_Labour_with_antisemitism)
Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
I feel the same, itâs terrible that such messages are tolerated. They aren't, and please stop implying that they are. You ask us to moderate the list, which we do, but we cannot moderate every single message that is sent here. But then quickly complain when your messages are not sent through in quick order when we put in extra efforts to minimimize garbage here. You cannot have it both ways. The moderators are doing their best to keep things in order, but you are not helping it by constantly accusing them and berating them in this manner. It is a thankless job, show some respect.
Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
Ian Lance Taylor skribis: > nipponm...@firemail.cc writes: > >> I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night >> filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, you >> know lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your >> suit. > > As far as I can tell, I received this on the gnu-misc-discuss mailing > list. > > I think it is necessary to say that I find this kind of racist > commentary abhorrent. > > I hope that others feel the same way. I feel the same, it’s terrible that such messages are tolerated. We should stand up against that. Ludo’.
Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list
I would like to be unsubscribed from the "NYLXS" list, and the gnu-misc-discuss list if it's being sent there too. I'm on the list to see what RMS has to say, once in awhile. I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, you know lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your suit. On 2020-02-23 20:46, Ludovic Courtès wrote: Andreas Enge skribis: The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, or are invited to be less susceptible, they will eventually just leave, and their example will prevent others from joining. And as has been amply demonstrated, just brandishing guidelines without options for sanctions does not solve the problem. I very much agree, thanks for explaining it this clearly. Ludo’. ___ Hangout mailing list hang...@nylxs.com http://lists.mrbrklyn.com/mailman/listinfo/hangout
Re: Harrassment on this list
Alexandre François Garreau writes: > Yet expressing it directly, without filter, it has already been > said, is unkind. I agree, and I think this is a key point to understand. The FSF has stated that it will accept work from anyone regardless of what they BELIEVE. Kindness is about what people SAY. I don't think there's a conflict there. You can believe in something and choose not to talk about it if you know the audience would react poorly to what you say or how you say it, that is kindness. Choosing to say something that would hurt someone else is unkind, even if you belive it is true. It's not about what you believe, it's about how you choose to talk about that belief. Communication happens best when both sides choose carefully how they communicate. I have never heard the FSF say "we'll accept patches from anyone, no matter how they behave on our mailing lists".
Re: Harrassment on this list
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 21:21:18 +0100, Andreas Enge wrote: > The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of > behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal > abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, > or are invited to be less susceptible, they will eventually just leave, > and their example will prevent others from joining. And as has been amply > demonstrated, just brandishing guidelines without options for sanctions > does not solve the problem. Personal attacks and unkind communication are not acceptable. They should be denounced and can be moderated as a last resort. But please understand the situation that we have been put in. The topics discussed here are extremely controversial. It's all too easy for people to be offended by one-another, or to interpret one-another's words especially harshly. If one particular group of people is behaving more kindly than others, then that is good---that group is acting as the better example for kind communication. Others acting unkindly, even if they feel as though they are defending GNU, are in the wrong. But coming to this list, raising an inflammatory topic, and then demanding that moderation be used as a tool to reduce tensions is not acceptable either. We'll strike a balance. -- Mike Gerwitz signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le lundi 24 février 2020, 03:26:17 CET DJ Delorie a écrit : > Alexandre François Garreau writes: > > Yet expressing it directly, without filter, it has already been > > said, is unkind. > > I agree, and I think this is a key point to understand. The FSF has Wait why “the FSF”? until now we were only speaking about GNU, not about the FSF. > stated that it will accept work from anyone regardless of what they > BELIEVE. This is strange as I never saw a such statement from FSF. FSF is a politically non-neutral charity, it would be to be expected from its member (not necessarily to its donators, such as google/etc.) to uphold and believe in their values. This is like charities work… and why most of them work by voting of their members. > Kindness is about what people SAY. I don't think there's a > conflict there. There still can be, if you are picky: because you can *believe* things about what you say: you can believe about the meaning you intent, about the meaning you understand, about the meaning you want to convey, about the meaning you believe is important conveying, about what is correct to say or not, what is kind or not, etc. “say” is pretty much near “think”, because we think with words pretty much often, and we say what we think also often (otherwise we are secret (it’s a cultural and personality trait) or lying/hypocritical). Yet there is “do” which is much further from what we say. This is the kind of thing such obligations are about. > You can believe in something and choose not to talk about it if you know > the audience would react poorly to what you say or how you say it, that > is kindness. It is also intelligence x) > Choosing to say something that would hurt someone else is > unkind, even if you belive it is true. It depends of your relationship with the person, and what you believe the result will be. Personally, I will always want to know what people believe about me, even if it hurts. I would be all too scared to one day be surprised about something people thought, or even told in my back, about me, all that time, and never told me, until it, one day, have practical consequences I wouldn’t ever had the time to act upon… > It's not about what you > believe, it's about how you choose to talk about that belief. > Communication happens best when both sides choose carefully how they > communicate. Good point. > I have never heard the FSF say "we'll accept patches from anyone, no > matter how they behave on our mailing lists". FSF can’t accept patch, as far as I know they don’t run any software project… do they? maybe their website can be considered as one… but do they update it with patches? Anyway from what I heard FSF’s mailing-lists are more harshely censored than GNU’s one. However a patch is a better example of “do” which is further from “think” and even “say”… but I find shocking to propose the idea to refuse someone’s technical contributions over their past declarations… even if it’s constructive? how childish is that?! is that like a punition? or what? what does it have to do with? what’s the relationship? I am to recall very well that really interesting contribution to the discussion from Samuel: he said sometimes someone is “toxic” in a certain place/circumstances, but not in others… it would be stupid not to profit from the ones where that person wouldn’t cause trouble! even the opposite! that’d make them used to work with other, to communicate properly, to feel the satisfaction of getting things done, efficiently (that requires proper communication), and maybe would learn, or at least get the incentive, to do that in other places where they would have got bad behavior!
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le dimanche 23 février 2020, 19:50:23 CET Andreas Enge a écrit : > On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 01:04:45PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > A code of conduct will not sovle the issue. Kind communication will, > > your message like the previous poster are both unkind. > > Well, stating that a person who is victim of abuse and complains about > it sends an "unkind" message is one of the patterns of communication I > am criticising. It confounds the victim and the aggressor. Very unkind > indeed! How do you expect to attract people to this mailing list, or to > the GNU project at large, in this way? Uh this is really PoV thing: “it’s not me who started” wait really? isn’t it possible that each one sincerely believes that it’s the other who started it? is “aggressor” here a purely objective thing? I’m sure if we were to ask him, he could believe the situation is “rms is the victim and you are the aggressor”. What he said was in answer to your messages and initiatives that offended him and attitude which likely looked unkind to him… we can retrace then that initiative to the unkind reaction people had about rms’ events in last months, to the unkind joint statement against him, to the unkind smear campaign against him, to statements he supported who (or whose wording) were likely to be perceived as unkind by his detractors. Talking about attractiveness, two things: first of all homogeneity is generally attractive, so disagreeing publicly is not attractive, so to be attractive a community shouldn’t be open or democratic… because *democracy*, and any collective arbitrage, require *disagreeing* (otherwise “democracy” (possibly meaning “being civilized”, “reasonable”, “kindness” or other broadly subjective stuff) is just a political hypocrisy, a double-thinking, a newspeak)… secondly, each opinion have detractors and supporters, and will likely turn away detractors… your opinion is not any less going to turn away people disagreeing with you (who still exist (there are at least troll-compliant right-wing people who would disagree with all of us but more with some, for instance))… and then trying to impose a state of censorship and of impossibility to disagree *is* also going to turn away people… yet more invisibly… > > If you really want to help, I suggest you ask people to follow the GNU > > Kind Communication Guidelines, and help in creating a welcoming > > atmosphere not by asking for people to be moderated but by encouraging > > kindness. > > So far, I have not got the impression that asking aggressive people to > communicate kindly has had any effect (while I think I have mostly > succeeded in communicating kindly myself); all that happens is doubling > down on insults and aggressiveness. Do you suggest I send out numbered > requests? "For the 76th time, please communicate kindly!" And for how > long do you suggest to continue sending out pleas that are not heeded? Do once, then ignore. Like people who don’t care about free software, about saying “gnu/linux”, etc.: you should know that. > What do you suggest when people obstinately refuse to communicate > kindly? That is exactly where sanctions ultimately can solve the issue, > so unlike your first line, I think that a code of conduct can solve > such problems. The CoC doesn’t do it. The reaction to it does. And the reaction you propose is censorship/moderation/whatever…
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le dimanche 23 février 2020, 21:21:18 CET Andreas Enge a écrit : > Well, I will let it drop - I am quite optimistic that personally I will > survive to insults by random strangers on the Internet. > > The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of > behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal > abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, > or are invited to be less susceptible, they will eventually just leave, This is a pattern I dislike: “okay this doesn’t work for me but it’d work for other so beware!”. The most often I hear this, it’s from people saying “of course I work for free most of the time but *nobody else would ever* do that, so we should never expect for it to happen!”. This is a bad pattern as you dismiss the fact you have no tangible direct proof of what you assume, but you want to lead to concrete reaction netherless… I mean, when someone resorts to insults… they’re not to be taken as much seriously as before, are they? So it is reasonable to then more easily ignore them, right?
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le dimanche 23 février 2020, 20:13:51 CET Andreas Enge a écrit : > On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 02:04:29PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > If you feel so much angered by an email, try to see past the points > > that you get angry about and try to find what the other party is > > trying to communicate. > > So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the > statement "You are sick"? Also, in the originating mail, there is more substance around/before that statement, than inside it.
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le dimanche 23 février 2020, 20:18:59 CET Andreas Enge a écrit :
> On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 09:11:46PM +0200, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> > For what it's worth, I believe you have failed to be kind in several
> > occasions; from a quick sample of three of your messages I found one
> > which was dubious and one definitely less than kind ("bickering"
>
> Indeed I give you this, not kind. You will also find a few instances of
> sarcasm here and there.
>
> > "you are simply wrong"
>
> Whereas pointing out factual errors is not a question of kindness,
> I would say.
Given the state of the discussion, I am to believe each time a party
demonstrates unkindess, this very same party is deeply convinced to only
state bare facts.
So two things: bare facts can be subjective (maybe you’re wrong), and bare
facts can be worded unkindly, or unprecautionously.
For instance, someone could feel hatred… and that would be a fact, and not
even a willing decision (we don’t usually “choose” to feel a certain
emotion)! Yet expressing it directly, without filter, it has already been
said, is unkind.
Emotions are natural, and all or them are useful… at least likely for
treating with physical aggressions, in the example of anger and hatred…
but are they useful on a written and cooperative communication medium such
as a mailing-list? I’m doubt of that…
Re: Harrassment on this list
Le dimanche 23 février 2020, 20:13:51 CET Andreas Enge a écrit : > On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 02:04:29PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > If you feel so much angered by an email, try to see past the points > > that you get angry about and try to find what the other party is > > trying to communicate. > > So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the > statement "You are sick"? They are trying to communicate several things, among which: unability to understand you as acting rationally (which means not all points and reasoning behind your actions is clear)… and anger, as last time someone tried to frame that as something else, they got corrected, so I guess the emotional content is considered important as well… But “you are sick” is unkind communication indeed, don’t feel not listened, you are understood on this point.
Re: Harrassment on this list
>So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the statement >"You are sick"? > Ignore the statement, or see past it -- be the better person. Okay, so if I understand correctly, you are telling me to be less susceptible. No, I'm asking you to help improve the situation by helping to lead by example. Like you I too have been getting quite interesting and creative emails yet I persist in the hope of everyone joining our cause, even those who disagree. I'd rather have everyone work on the GNU project than making it an echo chamber of voices that never disagree -- with that it means one has to accept disagreements and that sometimes people loose their cool.
Re: Harrassment on this list
Andreas Enge skribis: > The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of > behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal > abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, > or are invited to be less susceptible, they will eventually just leave, > and their example will prevent others from joining. And as has been amply > demonstrated, just brandishing guidelines without options for sanctions > does not solve the problem. I very much agree, thanks for explaining it this clearly. Ludo’.
Re: Harrassment on this list
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 02:37:35PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the statement >"You are sick"? > Ignore the statement, or see past it -- be the better person. Okay, so if I understand correctly, you are telling me to be less susceptible. Well, I will let it drop - I am quite optimistic that personally I will survive to insults by random strangers on the Internet. The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, or are invited to be less susceptible, they will eventually just leave, and their example will prevent others from joining. And as has been amply demonstrated, just brandishing guidelines without options for sanctions does not solve the problem. My point is made, I presume. Andreas
Re: Harrassment on this list
> If you feel so much angered by an email, try to see past the points > that you get angry about and try to find what the other party is > trying to communicate. So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the statement "You are sick"? Ignore the statement, or see past it -- be the better person.
Re: Harrassment on this list
Andreas Enge, 23/02/20 20:50:
So far, I have not got the impression that asking aggressive people to
communicate kindly has had any effect (while I think I have mostly succeeded
in communicating kindly myself)
For what it's worth, I believe you have failed to be kind in several
occasions; from a quick sample of three of your messages I found one
which was dubious and one definitely less than kind ("bickering", "you
are simply wrong").
Maybe nobody told you because they know that nobody is perfect.
Federico
Re: Harrassment on this list
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 09:11:46PM +0200, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> For what it's worth, I believe you have failed to be kind in several
> occasions; from a quick sample of three of your messages I found one which
> was dubious and one definitely less than kind ("bickering"
Indeed I give you this, not kind. You will also find a few instances of
sarcasm here and there.
> "you are simply wrong"
Whereas pointing out factual errors is not a question of kindness,
I would say.
Andreas
Re: Harrassment on this list
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 02:04:29PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > If you feel so much angered by an email, try to see past the points > that you get angry about and try to find what the other party is > trying to communicate. So what do you think that someone tries to communicate with the statement "You are sick"? Andreas
Re: Harrassment on this list
If you feel so much angered by an email, try to see past the points that you get angry about and try to find what the other party is trying to communicate. It is much better to try and steer the discussion in to a constructive direction, than trying to moderate what people can or cannot say -- that is an extreme solution to a easily solvable problem but one that takes a bit more effort from all of us. Moderation is the last resort, and one that is not taken lightly since it is a ethically and morally slippery slope.
Harrassment on this list
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 01:04:45PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > A code of conduct will not sovle the issue. Kind communication will, > your message like the previous poster are both unkind. Well, stating that a person who is victim of abuse and complains about it sends an "unkind" message is one of the patterns of communication I am criticising. It confounds the victim and the aggressor. Very unkind indeed! How do you expect to attract people to this mailing list, or to the GNU project at large, in this way? > If you really want to help, I suggest you ask people to follow the GNU > Kind Communication Guidelines, and help in creating a welcoming > atmosphere not by asking for people to be moderated but by encouraging > kindness. So far, I have not got the impression that asking aggressive people to communicate kindly has had any effect (while I think I have mostly succeeded in communicating kindly myself); all that happens is doubling down on insults and aggressiveness. Do you suggest I send out numbered requests? "For the 76th time, please communicate kindly!" And for how long do you suggest to continue sending out pleas that are not heeded? What do you suggest when people obstinately refuse to communicate kindly? That is exactly where sanctions ultimately can solve the issue, so unlike your first line, I think that a code of conduct can solve such problems. In any case, we observe on this list that appeals to kindness do not solve the issue. So maybe it is time to try something else. Andreas
