Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Liz Dodd]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:38:16 -0800
Stan Brown  wrote:

> "money out of the company into my personal bank account" -- that seems
> pretty clear to me that the company is lending the director money, not
> the other way round.

not if it is a repayment

So we are not completely clear about the circumstances.

LIz
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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Adrien Monteleone]

With the usual caveat that this is not formal advice, I agree with 
Michael. This looks like what we call "Owner's Equity" in my parts.


If this is just for you, then my personal advice is keep it simple.

Keep it in Equity.

You can put the original 'loan' into "Owner's Equity", and any money 
taken out (or paid back) *from/by* the company can be in "Owner's Draw". 
(which should be a child of Owner's Equity so the parent results in a 
net amount at a glance.)


If the Owner returns some of the Draw, that would simply be a reversing 
type transaction in the Draw account, or an increase in their main 
Equity account. (though I suppose you could track it in a separate child 
account still if you wanted, but unnecessary as a report can handle that 
detail.)


An Accounting textbook would most probably advise that none of this 
involves expenses or revenue. (unless you start introducing 'interest 
paid' in either direction.)


Equity is already understood to be a 'liability' of a special type — to 
the owner(s). It usually is *not* recorded as normal liabilities, 
because those are usually short term (less than one year) or long term, 
but Equity is essentially on indefinite terms.


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/9/21 7:29 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 22:48, Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:


On 12/9/2021 2:04 PM, Gyle McCollam wrote:

Repeat, get professional advice or at least learn the accounting
yourself. This is an accounting question, not a gnucash question.

Michael D Novack



I believe I was overthinking this - making it more complex than it needs to
be. To  be honest, I'm using GnuCash as a bookkeeping tool, not accountancy.*
Exactly how I record the information is not important, as long as my
accountant can understand what I've done. *

Maybe it's best if I just set up an expense account of  "director loan"
with the appropriate opening balance. Then at the end of the accounting
period, he will look at the balance, and add it to the other liabilities he
calculates. As long as my accountant can see what I've done, that's good
enough.

I have in the past used a spreadsheet where I record
* Expenses
* Income
* Bank account.
amongst other things.

The problem I've found is that when the expenses is subtracted from the
income, it does not agree with the change in the bank account due to
errors. A double-entry bookkeeping system should reduce the chance of
errors.

Dave



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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[Adrien Monteleone]

The wiki has a 'file locations' map for each major OS. Be certain if you 
are on Windows that you are following the map for the current version. 
They changed at least from 2.x to 3.x, and may have been changed again. 
(I don't use Windows, so can't advise, but it should be obvious in the Wiki)


As for non-focused issues, I can at least report that this does not 
happen to me on MacOS. Something else might be amiss.


If I recall, each OS is on a different GTK+ version, so some CSS 
directives will behave differently. (as well as the default GTK itself) 
The key to solving this would be to use the GTK Inspector as the Wiki 
describes, but I don't think that is available on Windows. You'd have to 
fire up a virtual machine, install GnuCash in it, then inspect the 
various tabs/windows of the app to find out what is going on. And then, 
if the problem does not re-appear in Linux, then...


Another option "might" be to try WSL, but I don't know if the Inspector 
will then work on a Windows app, or if you have to install GnuCash via 
WSL too. (and then you're right back at the same problem with a VM and 
different GTK versions)


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/9/21 7:50 PM, AC wrote:

Well I'm getting closer, just need to find more documentation.

For example, when the window loses focus, the text all changes to a very 
light gray which washes out but I can't seem to find anything that would 
instruct gtk not to do that.


There seems to be some differences in the wiki documentation covering 
configuration in a Windows environment.  The file locations described 
don't quite match where the actual files are located (for example many 
files are actually located in APPDATA/Roaming rather than APPDATA/Local)


This affects things like how to install a full theme or even editing 
some of the CSS.  I got the gtk-3.0.css file working but that's actually 
in Roaming\Gnucash despite the wiki saying it should be in Local\gtk-3.0.


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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[Adrien Monteleone]

I can report that I haven't changed my CSS file since early 3.x days and 
it still works just fine as intended in 4.8


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/9/21 7:39 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:

As far as I know, yes.


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 20:14:47 EST 2021
To: "D." 
Cc: GnuCash users group 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

I see information in the wiki on Gnucash 3.x because it changed to GTK3.
   Is it safe to assume that Gnucash 4 is still using GTK3 so the
instructions would be the same?


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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[Adrien Monteleone]

Yes, register colors are changeable, I've done so myself. The wiki and 
the linked example CSS files should document this already.


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/9/21 7:08 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:

Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through css. The 
colors in the register may be special, however, and not as readily changed (but 
I could be wrong). Others have documented these settings on the lists and in 
the wiki. Searches in the list archives and on the wiki should help you.


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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Stan Brown]

On 2021-12-09 07:23, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

> I can't understand why you say it's not a liability, when the company owes
> money to someone else? How is it any different to owing money on a credit
> card for example?


The company does not owe you any money. You said money would flow from
the company to you, as a loan. When you get a loan from the bank, do you
say that the bank owes you money? Of course not. The loan is an asset on
their books and a liability on yours.

It is the same when the company lends you money as when the bank lends
you money: an asset to the bank and a liability to you.



-- 

Stan Brown

Tehachapi, CA, USA

https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Stan Brown]

On 2021-12-09 11:04, Gyle McCollam wrote:
> If the loan is to the company, as stated in your original email, it is a 
> liability of the company.  Stan is incorrect, but if the company makes a loan 
> TO the director, then it would be an asset of the company and he would be 
> correct.


But the OP said:

>... as I thought that was the closest thing to allowing money to be
>moved out of the company, into my personal bank account.

>When I tried to pay myself using GnuCash, I was expecting money to go
>out of the company bank account,into my personal account, and reduce
>the company's liability. However when I set up a bill, I could see it
>was only possible to bill this as assets or expenses - *not as a
>liabilitiy*. Does this mean I need to set up another account for
>expenses?


"money out of the company into my personal bank account" -- that seems
pretty clear to me that the company is lending the director money, not
the other way round.

-- 

Stan Brown

Tehachapi, CA, USA

https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[Ken Farley]

The settings are almost the same from 3.x to 4.x, but coincidentally, 
the things to change Gnucash specific items (like register colors) are 
different. I'm attaching my own gtk.css with my own preferred settings. 
I spent a good amount of time delving into the interface settings 
available in general for GTK3 by looking at other much more complicated 
themes people have written, etc.


Hope it helps.

On 2021-12-09 20:14, AC wrote:
I see information in the wiki on Gnucash 3.x because it changed to 
GTK3.  Is it safe to assume that Gnucash 4 is still using GTK3 so the 
instructions would be the same?


On 2021-12-09 17:08, D. wrote:
Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through 
css. The colors in the register may be special, however, and not as 
readily changed (but I could be wrong). Others have documented these 
settings on the lists and in the wiki. Searches in the list archives 
and on the wiki should help you.



 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 19:01:05 EST 2021
To: GnuCash users group 
Subject: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.

A couple things I want to change if at all possible:

First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays
and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.

The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They
seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to
allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially
the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).

Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
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./*
 * Author: Kenneth J. Farley
 * Date:   2021-11-16
 *
 * GTK3 CSS file for use with GnuCash.
 * Developed by looking at complete theme definitions,
 * and scouring the internet for documentation.
 */

/* --- [ Variable Definitions ] 
 *
 * Definitions of colors so they can be used in many
 * places and subsequently changed conveniently, rather than
 * trying to find all uses of a particular color, etc.
 */

@define-color hueClear  rgba(   0,   0,   0, 0.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGButton   rgba( 240, 240, 240, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGDropdown rgba( 250, 235, 215, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGMain rgba( 220, 220, 220, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGNormal   rgba( 220, 220, 220, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGScroll   rgba( 250, 250, 250, 0.40 ) ;
@define-color hueBGSlider   rgba(  72,  61, 139, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueBGTooltip  rgba(   0,   0,   0, 0.80 ) ;
@define-color hueBGTrough   rgba( 150, 150, 150, 0.80 ) ;
@define-color hueBGSelected rgba(   0, 128, 128, 1.00 ) ;
/*
 * Hover   Custom Orange  = 255, 136,  77
 * Chartreuse = 127, 255,   0
 * Carolina Blue  =  87, 160, 211
 * Neon Green =  57, 255,  20
 */
@define-color hueHover  rgba( 255, 136,  77, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueHoverLorgba( 255, 136,  77, 0.10 ) ;
@define-color hueHoverMdrgba( 255, 136,  77, 0.20 ) ;
@define-color hueHoverHirgba( 255, 136,  77, 0.50 ) ;
@define-color hueHoverBorderrgba( 255, 136,  77, 1.00 ) ;
/*
 * Tabs
 */
@define-color hueTabHover   rgba(  26, 140, 255, 1.00 ) ;
@define-color hueTabHoverLo rgba(  26, 140, 255, 0.10 ) ;
@define-color hueTabHoverMd rgba(  26, 140, 255, 0.20 ) ;
@define-color hueTabHoverHi rgba(  26, 140, 255, 0.50 ) ;
@define-color hueTabHoverBorder rgba(  26, 140, 255, 1.00 ) ;
/*
 * Shade   LightCyan  = 224, 255, 255
 * LightSteelBlue = 176, 196, 222
 * LightYellow= 255, 255, 214
 */
@define-color hueShadedLo   rgba( 176, 196, 222, 0.05 ) ;
@define-color hueShadedMd   rgba( 176, 196, 222, 0.20 ) ;
@define-color hueShadedHi   rgba( 176, 196, 222, 0.50 ) ;
/*
 * Hilite  White  = 255, 255, 255
 */
@define-color hueHiliteLo   rgba( 255, 255, 255, 0.10 ) ;
@define-color hueHiliteMd   rgba( 255, 255, 255, 0.25 ) ;
@define-color hueHiliteHi   rgba( 255, 255, 255, 0.50

Re: [GNC] Bitcoin is legal currency in El Salvador - why notadd BTC?

[Frank H. Ellenberger]

Hi Colin,

Am 10.12.21 um 03:37 schrieb Colin Arndt:
> Considering this is an issue that regularly comes up on the list, it might 
> save everyone some time if there were a statement or section on the Wiki. 
> (Just searched around and didn’t find one). 

EExcellent idea! IMHO  you should name the page "Crypto Curerencies" and
link it at least from https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Using_GnuCash.

> I would be happy to contribute something incorporating John’s earlier 
> comments: Bitcoin is not supported as a currency in GnuCash and will not be 
> until it is added to [insert ISO standard he mentioned]. However, it can be 
> added as a custom security with [lengthier version of the instructions I gave 
> above]. 

https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690479 describes some aspects
and links to others.

> Best,
> Colin

Regards
Frank
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Re: [GNC] Bitcoin is legal currency in El Salvador - why notadd BTC?

[Colin Arndt]

To set the record straight, David is correct. Over a long period of time I had 
BTC set up as a custom security bringing in quotes via Yahoo JSON. You simply 
need to enter ‘BTC-USD’ as the symbol, since this is the format Yahoo Finance 
uses, as well as allow 8 decimal places (Fraction traded = 1/100,000,000). 
Attached is a screenshot of the full settings I used in the Security Editor.

Michael, it seems your concern with bringing in quotes is that Bitcoin is not 
sufficiently liquid or available for public trading? In a former life I traded 
Bitcoin and I can tell you that is certainly not the case (unless you live in 
China or a handful of other oppressive countries where it is banned). John made 
the point earlier that its primary use is as a speculative vehicle, not a 
currency, used by traders. That is certainly true. Others have mentioned how 
much is traded daily (I can’t remember how many billions it is at the moment). 
It is highly liquid.

Considering this is an issue that regularly comes up on the list, it might save 
everyone some time if there were a statement or section on the Wiki. (Just 
searched around and didn’t find one). 

I would be happy to contribute something incorporating John’s earlier comments: 
Bitcoin is not supported as a currency in GnuCash and will not be until it is 
added to [insert ISO standard he mentioned]. However, it can be added as a 
custom security with [lengthier version of the instructions I gave above]. 

Best,
Colin



> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:57:05 -0500
> From: Michael or Penny Novack 
> To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Bitcoin is legal currency in El Salvador - why
>   notadd BTC?
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 12/9/2021 4:20 PM, David G. Pickett via gnucash-user wrote:
>> I would think you can treat it as a security and probably get quotes 
>> imported just like for stocks.? But I suppose that begs the question of how 
>> easily you could receive BTC or the like into one of your security 
>> accounts.? Does GNUCash do income in securities?
> 
> I will repeat, it is a big assumption "probably get quotes imported just 
> like for stocks". You can get quotes for widely held publicly traded 
> stocks. Stocks that are liquid. Far less easy to place a value on 
> closely held stocks or any stocks that are not publicly traded on a 
> major exchange. Do you know what OTC or "pink sheets" mean?
> 
> Michael D Novack
> 

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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[AC]

Well I'm getting closer, just need to find more documentation.

For example, when the window loses focus, the text all changes to a very 
light gray which washes out but I can't seem to find anything that would 
instruct gtk not to do that.


There seems to be some differences in the wiki documentation covering 
configuration in a Windows environment.  The file locations described 
don't quite match where the actual files are located (for example many 
files are actually located in APPDATA/Roaming rather than APPDATA/Local)


This affects things like how to install a full theme or even editing 
some of the CSS.  I got the gtk-3.0.css file working but that's actually 
in Roaming\Gnucash despite the wiki saying it should be in Local\gtk-3.0.


On 2021-12-09 17:39, D. wrote:

As far as I know, yes.


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 20:14:47 EST 2021
To: "D." 
Cc: GnuCash users group 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

I see information in the wiki on Gnucash 3.x because it changed to GTK3.
   Is it safe to assume that Gnucash 4 is still using GTK3 so the
instructions would be the same?

On 2021-12-09 17:08, D. wrote:

Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through css. The 
colors in the register may be special, however, and not as readily changed (but 
I could be wrong). Others have documented these settings on the lists and in 
the wiki. Searches in the list archives and on the wiki should help you.


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 19:01:05 EST 2021
To: GnuCash users group 
Subject: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.

A couple things I want to change if at all possible:

First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays
and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.

The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They
seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to
allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially
the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).

Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[D. via gnucash-user]

As far as I know, yes. 


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 20:14:47 EST 2021
To: "D." 
Cc: GnuCash users group 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

I see information in the wiki on Gnucash 3.x because it changed to GTK3. 
  Is it safe to assume that Gnucash 4 is still using GTK3 so the 
instructions would be the same?

On 2021-12-09 17:08, D. wrote:
> Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through css. The 
> colors in the register may be special, however, and not as readily changed 
> (but I could be wrong). Others have documented these settings on the lists 
> and in the wiki. Searches in the list archives and on the wiki should help 
> you.
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> From: AC 
> Sent: Thu Dec 09 19:01:05 EST 2021
> To: GnuCash users group 
> Subject: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8
> 
> Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.
> 
> A couple things I want to change if at all possible:
> 
> First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays
> and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.
> 
> The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They
> seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to
> allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially
> the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).
> 
> Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
> ___
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> 

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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 22:48, Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 12/9/2021 2:04 PM, Gyle McCollam wrote:
>
> Repeat, get professional advice or at least learn the accounting
> yourself. This is an accounting question, not a gnucash question.
>
> Michael D Novack
>

I believe I was overthinking this - making it more complex than it needs to
be. To  be honest, I'm using GnuCash as a bookkeeping tool, not accountancy.*
Exactly how I record the information is not important, as long as my
accountant can understand what I've done. *

Maybe it's best if I just set up an expense account of  "director loan"
with the appropriate opening balance. Then at the end of the accounting
period, he will look at the balance, and add it to the other liabilities he
calculates. As long as my accountant can see what I've done, that's good
enough.

I have in the past used a spreadsheet where I record
* Expenses
* Income
* Bank account.
amongst other things.

The problem I've found is that when the expenses is subtracted from the
income, it does not agree with the change in the bank account due to
errors. A double-entry bookkeeping system should reduce the chance of
errors.

Dave
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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[AC]

I see information in the wiki on Gnucash 3.x because it changed to GTK3. 
 Is it safe to assume that Gnucash 4 is still using GTK3 so the 
instructions would be the same?


On 2021-12-09 17:08, D. wrote:

Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through css. The 
colors in the register may be special, however, and not as readily changed (but 
I could be wrong). Others have documented these settings on the lists and in 
the wiki. Searches in the list archives and on the wiki should help you.


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 19:01:05 EST 2021
To: GnuCash users group 
Subject: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.

A couple things I want to change if at all possible:

First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays
and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.

The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They
seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to
allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially
the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).

Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
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Re: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[D. via gnucash-user]

Much of the interface (such as tab height) can be controlled through css. The 
colors in the register may be special, however, and not as readily changed (but 
I could be wrong). Others have documented these settings on the lists and in 
the wiki. Searches in the list archives and on the wiki should help you. 


 Original Message 
From: AC 
Sent: Thu Dec 09 19:01:05 EST 2021
To: GnuCash users group 
Subject: [GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.

A couple things I want to change if at all possible:

First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays 
and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.

The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They 
seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to 
allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially 
the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).

Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
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[GNC] Changing colors and layout on 4.8

[AC]

Ok, finally got upgraded to 4.8, so far so good.

A couple things I want to change if at all possible:

First is the color schemes, I'd like to change the ledger to dark grays 
and also change the overall UI to have a darker color if possible.


The other thing I was hoping to do is reduce the size of the tabs.  They 
seem to be using a touchscreen sizing (large areas of empty space to 
allow for finger tapping) and I'd like to shrink that down, especially 
the register tabs (I have them set to the left and they are quite tall).


Where would I go about making these changes if possible?
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Re: [GNC] Bitcoin is legal currency in El Salvador - why notadd BTC?

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 12/9/2021 4:20 PM, David G. Pickett via gnucash-user wrote:

I would think you can treat it as a security and probably get quotes imported 
just like for stocks.  But I suppose that begs the question of how easily you 
could receive BTC or the like into one of your security accounts.  Does GNUCash 
do income in securities?


I will repeat, it is a big assumption "probably get quotes imported just 
like for stocks". You can get quotes for widely held publicly traded 
stocks. Stocks that are liquid. Far less easy to place a value on 
closely held stocks or any stocks that are not publicly traded on a 
major exchange. Do you know what OTC or "pink sheets" mean?


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 12/9/2021 2:04 PM, Gyle McCollam wrote:

If the loan is to the company, as stated in your original email, it is a 
liability of the company.  Stan is incorrect, but if the company makes a loan 
TO the director, then it would be an asset of the company and he would be 
correct.

I will repeat that I lack "qualifications" to give accounting advice and 
in any case the question is not about my jurisdiction. But I vaguely 
recall that such "insider" transactions are handled under "equity". 
That's where the accounts would be representing the shares of the 
owners. The point is that when an director/part owner borrows from the 
company, it is more like withdrawing part of his or her investment. Yes, 
hopefully temporarily, which is why being considered a "loan" .


Seriously, if not going to get professional advice at least look the 
matter up in an accounting text to see what the proper treatment of this 
situation is and for your jurisdiction.


And it might make a (big) difference if this were a "secured loan" 
backed up by something other than the borrowers share of the business. 
But then I think it would be called something different than a "director 
loan".


Repeat, get professional advice or at least learn the accounting 
yourself. This is an accounting question, not a gnucash question.


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Bitcoin is legal currency in El Salvador - why notadd BTC?

[David G. Pickett via gnucash-user]

I would think you can treat it as a security and probably get quotes imported 
just like for stocks.  But I suppose that begs the question of how easily you 
could receive BTC or the like into one of your security accounts.  Does GNUCash 
do income in securities?
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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Gyle McCollam]

If the loan is to the company, as stated in your original email, it is a 
liability of the company.  Stan is incorrect, but if the company makes a loan 
TO the director, then it would be an asset of the company and he would be 
correct.


Thank You,
Gyle McCollam

Gyle McCollam

609.680.2326 Mobile

gmccol...@live.com   email


From: gnucash-user  on 
behalf of Dr. David Kirkby 
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 10:23 AM
Cc: GNU Cash User 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 13:57, Stan Brown  wrote:

> Reminder: The normal thing is to reply to the GnuCash list, not to
> individual people who post.
>
> On 2021-12-08 15:49, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
> > Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> Director Loan.
>
> It's not a liability to the company. It will become an asset (to the
> company) when it is paid out, and the asset will be extinguished when
> the loan is repaid.
>

I can't understand why you say it's not a liability, when the company owes
money to someone else? How is it any different to owing money on a credit
card for example?

Stan Brown
>

Dave
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Re: [GNC] An automated depreciation calculator would be really helpful.

[Stephen M. Butler]

Per https://www.excel-easy.com/examples/depreciation.html Excel has five 
(5) depreciation methods.


I suspect these could be implemented in a manner similar to the loan 
calculations inside the transaction scheduler (I am not talking about 
the loan wizard but about the resulting functions ipmt, ppmt, etc).


Per https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Scheduled_Transactions

   "Any text string /followed by parens/, optionally with arguments,
   will have the string "gnc:" prepended to it and *evaluated in the
   scheme environment*.

   *Arguments* are separated with |:|. See fin.scm
   

   for examples of providing functions."

So, new functions could be added to fin.scm (located at libgnu 
cash/app-utils/fin.scm) to support depreciation.  Perhaps implement the 
five (5) functions found in Excel.
If needed, there appears to be supporting C code in 
ibgnucash/app-utils/calculation/fin.c


This wouldn't automate it to the level the OP wishes, but a few minutes 
setting up scheduled transactions using the new routines would provide 
the rudimentary items needed to implement whichever depreciation 
schedule desired.


I also noted that there is a local/private function in fin.scm for 
rounding.  For the individual who wanted to force rounding at a 
particular point (discussion over a year ago) within a scheduled 
transaction, all they need to do is expose (make public) that function.


Someone other than the current developers with Scheme/C expertise should 
be able to whip those changes together and make a contribution.  I can 
read the source but do not have sufficient exposure to either language 
to craft the new functions.


--Steve


On 12/8/21 19:18, davidcousen...@gmail.com wrote:

Dave,

Depreciation rules are generally set by your taxation system and your accountant
will likely be reflecting those rules that apply in your jurisdiction. If you
are going to do the depreciation calculations then you will need to become
acquainted with the rules in your jurisdiction. Rules may also be different for
particular capital items and asset classes. If your taxation authority is nice
they will have published the rules on line. From the little I have read
depreciation is not an allowable business expense for tax purposes in the UK -
check that with your accountant though.

I personally used to maintain a spreadsheet for each major capital item I was
depreciating and similarly for items which could be pooled under the
depreciation rules and perform all the necessary calculations in the spreadsheet
and just record the resulting figures as required in my accounting program (not
GnuCash in the days when I was still running a business).

I suspect depreciation rules vary considerably in detail from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction making it difficult to define a general calculator which will work
adequately across all jurisdictions. It is a bit like loan repayment
calculations, they will likely come out pretty close but the methodology has to
be exactly the same to get the same result.

It should be possible to use the transaction file association to link the
transactions to a depreciation spreadsheet data file, which since most OS's can
initiate a program based on the file extension should allow the spreadsheet
program to be launched from the file association - haven't tested this out for a
spreadsheet but it does work for pdfs on Linux.

David Cousens


On Thu, 2021-12-09 at 00:34 +, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

A friend of mine bought some Excel spreadsheets for his company accounts.
He has used them for many years and finds them good. He has suggested I use
them, but I'm not keen on that idea. At any point in time he can see
exactly what the depreciation of an item is, and so exactly when the value
has fallen to zero.

I read about depreciation in GnuCash at

https://cvs.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/chapter_dep.html

but it seems rather limited. The last paragraph on this page

https://cvs.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/dep_accounts1.html

says

"The actual input of the depreciation amounts is done by hand every
accounting period. There is no way in *GnuCash* (as of yet) to perform the
depreciation scheme calculations automatically, or to input the values
automatically into the appropriate accounts. However, since an accounting
period is typically one year, this really is not much work to do by hand."

I don't think it's true to say it's not much work to do. I know my
accountant says one should start depreciating from the day something goes
into service, but he uses a different scheme, which is good enough. If an
item is purchased before the halfway through the month, he considers it
purchased on the 1st of that month, and if after 50% of the way though the
month, he considers it purchased the following next month. The errors in
this should be small.

So each time an asset is purchased, one needs to start depreciating it from
the

Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 13:57, Stan Brown  wrote:

> Reminder: The normal thing is to reply to the GnuCash list, not to
> individual people who post.
>
> On 2021-12-08 15:49, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
> > Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> Director Loan.
>
> It's not a liability to the company. It will become an asset (to the
> company) when it is paid out, and the asset will be extinguished when
> the loan is repaid.
>

I can't understand why you say it's not a liability, when the company owes
money to someone else? How is it any different to owing money on a credit
card for example?

Stan Brown
>

Dave
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Re: [GNC] Directors loan - do I need an expense account?

[Stan Brown]

Reminder: The normal thing is to reply to the GnuCash list, not to
individual people who post.

On 2021-12-08 15:49, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
> Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> Director Loan.

It's not a liability to the company. It will become an asset (to the
company) when it is paid out, and the asset will be extinguished when
the loan is repaid.

> as I thought that was the closest thing to allowing money to be moved out
> of the company, into my personal bank account.
> 
> When I tried to pay myself using GnuCash, I was expecting money to go out
> of the company bank account,into my personal account, and reduce the
> company's liability. However when I set up a bill, I could see it was only
> possible to bill this as assets or expenses - *not as a liabilitiy*.
> Does this mean I need to set up another account for expenses?

It means you shouldn't set it up as a bill, because it isn't one.

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] An automated depreciation calculator would be really helpful.

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 12/8/2021 7:50 PM, Gyle McCollam wrote:

What I do is set up a placeholder account for the asset.  I set up sub accounts 
for the actual asset purchase and another for the depreciation of the asset.  
You could then set up a scheduled transaction to record the depreciation each 
month, quarter, semiannually, or annually depending on how you want to record 
it.  There you can set up how many depreciation transactions you would like and 
it will stop at that point.


Book value vs real value

a) A business subject to taxation USUALLY depreciates fixed assets as 
rapidly as possible. Non-profits(in the US at least) are allowed great 
freedom in the time period they use. It is not related to what the 
actual residual value of the asset might be.


b) Usually (in the US) it is year or fraction of year. Usually doing 
"depreciation" is part of end of year (calendar or fiscal) processing 
and not monthly, etc.


c) Yes, for each fixed asset usual to have a sub-account for "basis" 
(what it cost) and a sub-account for all the depreciation charges.  But 
if the org had a lot of fixed assets bought each yes, I'd probably do 
"by year" with accounts for "bought in year" and "depreciation" and only 
work with the totals.


Michael D Novack

PS -- About "director loans" --- WHY are you going through the "business 
features" for these? They are NOT receivables or payables but only exist 
if and when received or paid out. Or at least I believe that to be the 
case. I am NOT "qualified" to give business law advice about that and 
certainly not for your jurisdiction.


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Re: [GNC] Advanced Portfolio Template: Population of data with dividends

[Thomas]

Maybe something along the lines of "Money Invested"?

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 13:26, D  wrote:
>
> Well, it seems that "Money In" is an ambiguous phrase. Perhaps there is a 
> better term that this report could use instead? "Purchase Cost" comes to 
> mind
> On Dec 9, 2021, at 06:39, Thomas  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification Richard!
>> it seems like the dividends are added in another column that I did not
>> look into as I always expected to see the dividends in the 'money in'
>> column.
>>
>> Thanks to all of your feedback!
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 19:09, Richard Ullger  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  I recall the discussions that took place on the mailing list years ago
>>>  when fixing up the Advanced Portfolio Report.
>>>
>>>  The 'Money In' column reflects only the actual cash You have used to
>>>  purchase the security. Dividend and interest income is included in the
>>>  'Income' column only and not in the 'Money In' column.
>>>
>>>  'Basis' does include the cost of the security whether bought from your
>>>  own funds or from income.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 08/12/2021 17:36, Thomas wrote:

  Thanks Tom and David for your quick replies!

  I actually found that info some time ago as well, but it seems not to
  do the trick (for me).
  In the security's account I have the buy transactions (which are taken
  into account by the advanced portfolio template) and also the dividend
  payments in a "neutral" transaction as part of the dividend payment
  transaction. That means that the dividend transaction has multiple
  accounts involved (translated, so terms might not be 100% accurate):
  - "Earnings:Dividends" containing the whole amount I get from the company
  - "Expenses:Taxes" the amount of taxes that was deducted from the above
  - "Assets:ClearingAccount" the amount that remained after the deduction 
 of taxes
  - "Assets:Securities:CompanyXY" just added without any amount

  Is there something I am missing to make it work?

  Best,
  Thomas

  On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 16:45, David Carlson  
 wrote:
>
>
>  IIRC Tom's suggestion is the key to getting dividends correctly assigned 
> in
>  the Advanced Portfolio Report.  I cannot find the documentation either, 
> but
>  there is a lot of information in the Tutorial chapter on investments <
>  https://gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=4&lang=C&doc=guide>
>
>  On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:36 AM Tom Teixeira 
>  wrote:
>
>>  On 12/8/21 10:09 AM, Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>  Dear User-List,
>>>
>>>  I successfully populated the advanced portfolio template with most of
>>>  the data by selecting of all the accounts of my securities.
>>>  What I did not manage to get filled is the "money in" column, to also
>>>  include received dividends in the calculations. I tried to add the
>>>  accounts with the dividends, but that was not successful.
>>>  My question essentially is, how to properly fill the "money in" column
>>>  with dividends.
>>
>>
>>  I don't remember where it is in the manual, but add a split to the
>>  dividend transaction and include the asset account for the stock. You
>>  shouldn't have to enter any amount for the stock itself unless you are
>>  reinvesting some or all of the dividend.
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>  gnucash-user mailing list
>>  gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>>  To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>  https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>  If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>>  https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>>  -
>>  Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>  You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
>
>
>
>  --
>  David Carlson
> 
>
>  gnucash-user mailing list
>  gnucash-user@gnucash.org
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>  -
>  Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>  You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

 

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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 

Re: [GNC] Advanced Portfolio Template: Population of data with dividends

[D via gnucash-user]

Well, it seems that "Money In" is an ambiguous phrase. Perhaps there is a 
better term that this report could use instead? "Purchase Cost" comes to 
mind

On Dec 9, 2021, 06:39, at 06:39, Thomas  
wrote:
>Thanks for the clarification Richard!
>it seems like the dividends are added in another column that I did not
>look into as I always expected to see the dividends in the 'money in'
>column.
>
>Thanks to all of your feedback!
>
>On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 19:09, Richard Ullger  wrote:
>>
>> I recall the discussions that took place on the mailing list years
>ago
>> when fixing up the Advanced Portfolio Report.
>>
>> The 'Money In' column reflects only the actual cash You have used to
>> purchase the security. Dividend and interest income is included in
>the
>> 'Income' column only and not in the 'Money In' column.
>>
>> 'Basis' does include the cost of the security whether bought from
>your
>> own funds or from income.
>>
>>
>> On 08/12/2021 17:36, Thomas wrote:
>> > Thanks Tom and David for your quick replies!
>> >
>> > I actually found that info some time ago as well, but it seems not
>to
>> > do the trick (for me).
>> > In the security's account I have the buy transactions (which are
>taken
>> > into account by the advanced portfolio template) and also the
>dividend
>> > payments in a "neutral" transaction as part of the dividend payment
>> > transaction. That means that the dividend transaction has multiple
>> > accounts involved (translated, so terms might not be 100%
>accurate):
>> > - "Earnings:Dividends" containing the whole amount I get from the
>company
>> > - "Expenses:Taxes" the amount of taxes that was deducted from the
>above
>> > - "Assets:ClearingAccount" the amount that remained after the
>deduction of taxes
>> > - "Assets:Securities:CompanyXY" just added without any amount
>> >
>> > Is there something I am missing to make it work?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Thomas
>> >
>> > On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 16:45, David Carlson
> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> IIRC Tom's suggestion is the key to getting dividends correctly
>assigned in
>> >> the Advanced Portfolio Report.  I cannot find the documentation
>either, but
>> >> there is a lot of information in the Tutorial chapter on
>investments <
>> >> https://gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=4&lang=C&doc=guide>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:36 AM Tom Teixeira
>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 12/8/21 10:09 AM, Thomas wrote:
>>  Dear User-List,
>> 
>>  I successfully populated the advanced portfolio template with
>most of
>>  the data by selecting of all the accounts of my securities.
>>  What I did not manage to get filled is the "money in" column, to
>also
>>  include received dividends in the calculations. I tried to add
>the
>>  accounts with the dividends, but that was not successful.
>>  My question essentially is, how to properly fill the "money in"
>column
>>  with dividends.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't remember where it is in the manual, but add a split to
>the
>> >>> dividend transaction and include the asset account for the stock.
>You
>> >>> shouldn't have to enter any amount for the stock itself unless
>you are
>> >>> reinvesting some or all of the dividend.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> David Carlson
>> >> ___
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Re: [GNC] Advanced Portfolio Template: Population of data with dividends

[Thomas]

Thanks for the clarification Richard!
it seems like the dividends are added in another column that I did not
look into as I always expected to see the dividends in the 'money in'
column.

Thanks to all of your feedback!

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 19:09, Richard Ullger  wrote:
>
> I recall the discussions that took place on the mailing list years ago
> when fixing up the Advanced Portfolio Report.
>
> The 'Money In' column reflects only the actual cash You have used to
> purchase the security. Dividend and interest income is included in the
> 'Income' column only and not in the 'Money In' column.
>
> 'Basis' does include the cost of the security whether bought from your
> own funds or from income.
>
>
> On 08/12/2021 17:36, Thomas wrote:
> > Thanks Tom and David for your quick replies!
> >
> > I actually found that info some time ago as well, but it seems not to
> > do the trick (for me).
> > In the security's account I have the buy transactions (which are taken
> > into account by the advanced portfolio template) and also the dividend
> > payments in a "neutral" transaction as part of the dividend payment
> > transaction. That means that the dividend transaction has multiple
> > accounts involved (translated, so terms might not be 100% accurate):
> > - "Earnings:Dividends" containing the whole amount I get from the company
> > - "Expenses:Taxes" the amount of taxes that was deducted from the above
> > - "Assets:ClearingAccount" the amount that remained after the deduction of 
> > taxes
> > - "Assets:Securities:CompanyXY" just added without any amount
> >
> > Is there something I am missing to make it work?
> >
> > Best,
> > Thomas
> >
> > On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 16:45, David Carlson  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> IIRC Tom's suggestion is the key to getting dividends correctly assigned in
> >> the Advanced Portfolio Report.  I cannot find the documentation either, but
> >> there is a lot of information in the Tutorial chapter on investments <
> >> https://gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=4&lang=C&doc=guide>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:36 AM Tom Teixeira 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 12/8/21 10:09 AM, Thomas wrote:
>  Dear User-List,
> 
>  I successfully populated the advanced portfolio template with most of
>  the data by selecting of all the accounts of my securities.
>  What I did not manage to get filled is the "money in" column, to also
>  include received dividends in the calculations. I tried to add the
>  accounts with the dividends, but that was not successful.
>  My question essentially is, how to properly fill the "money in" column
>  with dividends.
> >>>
> >>> I don't remember where it is in the manual, but add a split to the
> >>> dividend transaction and include the asset account for the stock. You
> >>> shouldn't have to enter any amount for the stock itself unless you are
> >>> reinvesting some or all of the dividend.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> gnucash-user mailing list
> >>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> >>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> >>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> >>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> >>> -
> >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Carlson
> >> ___
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