Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

Our Legislature has set up at least 2 of those per year, and they can 
always do another or more one-offs.


And at that, they aren't 'general' holidays. They only apply to the 
State rate, (and maybe not all of it at that) and then only to specific 
goods, and then not for written sales, but actual delivered sales 
(unless delivery is not available during the holiday due to no fault of 
the customer) to deter customers requesting later delivery as a 
loophole, but surprisingly, you can *start* a layaway plan during the 
holiday at the reduced rate!! Madness, I say, sheer madness. Every 
legislator and governor should be forced to do business under their own 
rules, even if just for a day. (and then make them try to write software 
to 'streamline' their madness)


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/28/22 5:58 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:



It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to believe
that we have the most complex tax system on the planet.

Liz



The reason is that here in the US sales tax is not national. The US is a 
federation of states and commonwealths. You would not be surprised if 50 
countries had highly different rules about sales tax, whether or not had 
one, what rates and what applied to and we were discussing transactions 
crossing country boundaries. So why does it seem surprising with our 
states.


We haven't even begun to discuss another level of complexity for the 
proposed software to deal with. It would also have to be able to be 
turned off for each state by date range! That's because it is not at all 
unusual for the governor of a state that has sales tax to declare a "tax 
holiday" << to boost business >>


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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

Tell them to try doing business in Louisiana. Ha!

Regards,
Adrien

On 2/28/22 5:25 PM, Liz wrote:


It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to believe
that we have the most complex tax system on the planet.


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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

The question is more likely one of 'when does the sale take place?' And 
for many jurisdictions, it takes place when 'good delivery has been 
made.' (when the revenue is earned, payment is irrelevant here)


1. So if you walk into a store, and walk out with goods, (paid or on 
credit) the point of 'written' sale is the same as 'delivered' sale. So 
the jurisdiction is the store, or seller's location.


2. If you walk into the same store, but order a certain type of good 
(based on local laws) for delivery to a different jurisdiction (say your 
home or business) then delivery jurisdiction is used as that is the 
'point of sale' where the seller has technically 'earned' the revenue. 
(until then, your payment constitutes a deposit - their liability.)


3. If you order online (or by 'mail' in the old days) for 'local pickup' 
then you most likely will be paying tax based on the seller's (or pickup 
location) jurisdiction, same as if you had walked in and out with the 
goods personally. (#1)


4. If you order online (or mail) for delivery, that's the same as #2 above.

Of course, laws vary widely, so those are general scenarios. They may 
not apply to you.


The recent change in the U.S. is that until a particular Court decision, 
online sales (as well as by mail) had no legal nexus as States couldn't 
tax 'out of state' sales. (at least not in the general case, there might 
have been some exceptions) One can argue the correctness of the 
decision, but it currently stands, so we have to deal with the aftermath.


I don't know the history of this in other countries.

Regards,
Adrien

On 2/28/22 8:34 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

I think that is perhaps confusion more than right/wrong.

In remote sales (internet, etc.)  it is the location of the buyer.

But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something at 
a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on that. 
Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing the 
whatever home. When they pay that on their state return, they can claim 
credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to state B.


Living as I do in a state which has sales tax and has a neighboring 
state that does not, I am of course very familiar with this. People 
living in my state A close to the border often intentionally shop in 
state B, especially for small things they can get away with not 
reporting. It is also why state A has a special way of checking that 
sales tax is paid on big ticket items like vehicles (proof of sales tax 
needed for registering the vehicle).


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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[John Layman]

According to SalesTaxInstutute.com:

Sales Tax is tax on the sale, transfer or exchange of a taxable
item/service, generally charged to the purchaser as an add-on to the price,
the purchaser typically being the consumer or end user.

Use Tax is a tax on storage, use, or consumption of a taxable item/service
on which no sales tax has been paid.  It is a complementary or compensating
tax and does not apply if sales tax was charged.

California is described by TaxJar as a hybrid origin state with some of the
most complex sales tax laws in the country.

-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user 
On Behalf Of Stan Brown
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 9:58 AM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax


On 2022-02-28 06:34, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something 
> at a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on
that.
> Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing the 
> whatever home.

The tax the buyer pays to their home state after "importing" goods for
personal use is called use tax in every state I've lived in.

You didn't mention the case where buyer and seller are in different taxing
jurisdictions within the same state. I don't know how other states do it,
but when you live in county C in California, go to a dealer in county D in
California, and buy a car, the dealer is required to charge sales tax at
county C's rate, not county D's. Probably the same is true for boats. For
smaller items, you pay at the rate of the seller's county, and there's no
credit if you take the goods back to your home in a lower-tax county.

> When they pay that on their state return, they can claim credit for 
> the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to state B.

Maybe. Some states don't allow it, or allow it only up to the home state's
tax rate.

--
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[John Layman]

I can lay no claim to being an expert where sales tax is concerned.  Your 
comment caused me to research how many states are origin-based, and it turns 
out the number is eleven.  So you are correct that the majority are 
destination-based.

Online sales have clouded this issue because states have reacted to the loss of 
revenue from remote businesses by changing their sales tax laws on nexus.   A 
business may have physical nexus or, alternatively, an economic nexus that 
obligates them to collect tax for a particular state where their products are 
delivered.  I believe the laws are sometimes based on a certain volume of 
activity, which is a complicating factor in collection when the business is not 
certain of crossing that threshold.  But, I'm prepared to agree that most 
states may be destination states where online sales are concerned.  Consider 
the confusing situation if your business is located in an origin-based state 
but has nexus out of state!

Making the buyer the determination of sales tax jurisdiction is an onerous 
complication for small business, to say the least.  Gino's Pizza's one and only 
shop may deliver across the county line, but I'm willing to bet they don't 
collect sales tax accordingly.

The number of sales tax jurisdictions in the U.S. alone runs to the tens of 
thousands, a few of which have quirky bracket schemes that are more complicated 
than simple application of a percentage.  Some have on and off surtaxes.  Then, 
too, some states declare brief sales tax holidays for one reason or another.   
And whether or not they tax shipping and/or a particular type of service are 
yet further complexities.

I was mainly just reacting to how unthinkable it is that GnuCash doesn't 
automatically calculate sales tax.

-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user  On 
Behalf Of Sebastian Naumann
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 2:51 AM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

Hi John,

sorry, but I tend to disagree with your statement that "[...] most states 
consider the location of the seller to be the nexus...". Actually the second 
part of the statement is correct: Most states are destination based, meaning 
the location of the buyer is relevant. There you will have to keep in mind the 
economic nexus thresholds as well, meaning if you have x transactions / $x of 
Gross sales per a certain period in the destination state, you will have to 
register there.

Have a great day and please correct me here if you believe that I am wrong.

Am 2/22/22 um 9:58 PM schrieb John Layman:
> A further complication in calculating sales tax is that there is no uniform 
> law regarding nexus.  Whereas most states consider the location of the seller 
> to be the nexus, there are others where the nexus is that of the buyer!  In 
> Florida, a seller in Okeechobee shipping an alligator skin wallet to a buyer 
> in Pensacola is supposed to charge sales tax at the rate of the buyer's 
> location 600 miles away.  And, if the purchase was made from an online store 
> whose owner was in Baton Rouge, same thing.   Sales tax is one reason there 
> is a difference between point-of-sale systems and accounting packages.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
> gnucash-user  
> On Behalf Of Adrien Monteleone
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 12:45 PM 
> To:gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax
>
> Yeah, without a receipt in hand (or electronic) showing the breakout, no 
> software can assume or guess reliably. That is just insane.
>
> In my state, you can have one location in one jurisdiction depending on what 
> side of the street it is on, and the two properties to the left and right can 
> each be in other separate districts. And then, you have to take into account 
> purchasing location vs. delivery, and then the type of item or service.
>
> That is impossible for any software, paid for or not, to 'guess' based merely 
> on a description containing a business name.
>
> Even if you pre-specified what each business you buy from charges, you 
> might end up getting it wrong. (my grocery receipt for example charges 
> one rate for food 'for home consumption' and another for everything 
> else, and those subtotals of course vary from purchase to purchase)
>
> And that doesn't even scratch 'tax holidays'! (or that local rates can 
> change 4 times a year!)
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 2/21/22 9:00 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
>> On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:
>>> Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, 
>>> service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane 
>>> variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight 
>>> exaggeration).
&g

Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Liz]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:58:20 -0500
Michael or Penny Novack  wrote:

> > It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to
> > believe that we have the most complex tax system on the planet.
> >
> > Liz  
> 
> 
> The reason is that here in the US sales tax is not national. The US
> is a federation of states and commonwealths. You would not be
> surprised if 50 countries had highly different rules about sales tax,
> whether or not had one, what rates and what applied to and we were
> discussing transactions crossing country boundaries. So why does it
> seem surprising with our states.
> 
> We haven't even begun to discuss another level of complexity for the 
> proposed software to deal with. It would also have to be able to be 
> turned off for each state by date range! That's because it is not at
> all unusual for the governor of a state that has sales tax to declare
> a "tax holiday" << to boost business >>
> 
> Michael D Novack
> 

Last century, when it was easier to reach political consensus, state
sales taxes were all abolished. Now the States argue over the carve up
of the pie.
But there are plenty of other taxes to make life exceptionally complex
here, do not worry, the accountants and tax people have plenty to keep
them busy.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Michael or Penny Novack]

It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to believe
that we have the most complex tax system on the planet.

Liz



The reason is that here in the US sales tax is not national. The US is a 
federation of states and commonwealths. You would not be surprised if 50 
countries had highly different rules about sales tax, whether or not had 
one, what rates and what applied to and we were discussing transactions 
crossing country boundaries. So why does it seem surprising with our states.


We haven't even begun to discuss another level of complexity for the 
proposed software to deal with. It would also have to be able to be 
turned off for each state by date range! That's because it is not at all 
unusual for the governor of a state that has sales tax to declare a "tax 
holiday" << to boost business >>


Michael D Novack

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[David Carlson]

At least you have the best opera house on the planet.

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 5:28 PM Liz  wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 06:58:08 -0800
> Stan Brown  wrote:
>
> > On 2022-02-28 06:34, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> > > But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys
> > > something at a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax)
> > > collected based on that. Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to
> > > state A when bringing the whatever home.
> >
> > The tax the buyer pays to their home state after "importing" goods for
> > personal use is called use tax in every state I've lived in.
> >
> > You didn't mention the case where buyer and seller are in different
> > taxing jurisdictions within the same state. I don't know how other
> > states do it, but when you live in county C in California, go to a
> > dealer in county D in California, and buy a car, the dealer is
> > required to charge sales tax at county C's rate, not county D's.
> > Probably the same is true for boats. For smaller items, you pay at
> > the rate of the seller's county, and there's no credit if you take
> > the goods back to your home in a lower-tax county.
> >
> > > When they pay that on their state return, they can claim
> > > credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to
> > > state B.
> >
> > Maybe. Some states don't allow it, or allow it only up to the home
> > state's tax rate.
>
> It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to believe
> that we have the most complex tax system on the planet.
>
> Liz
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-- 
David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Liz]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 06:58:08 -0800
Stan Brown  wrote:

> On 2022-02-28 06:34, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> > But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys
> > something at a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax)
> > collected based on that. Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to
> > state A when bringing the whatever home.  
> 
> The tax the buyer pays to their home state after "importing" goods for
> personal use is called use tax in every state I've lived in.
> 
> You didn't mention the case where buyer and seller are in different
> taxing jurisdictions within the same state. I don't know how other
> states do it, but when you live in county C in California, go to a
> dealer in county D in California, and buy a car, the dealer is
> required to charge sales tax at county C's rate, not county D's.
> Probably the same is true for boats. For smaller items, you pay at
> the rate of the seller's county, and there's no credit if you take
> the goods back to your home in a lower-tax county.
> 
> > When they pay that on their state return, they can claim
> > credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to
> > state B.  
> 
> Maybe. Some states don't allow it, or allow it only up to the home
> state's tax rate.

It's incredibly complex. And Australians have all been led to believe
that we have the most complex tax system on the planet. 

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Steve Butler]

As soon as you dream up something that can't occur, the legislative
assistants will incorporate that scenario into new law.

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 09:48 Fred Bone  wrote:

> On 28 February 2022 at 10:28, William Prescott said:
>
> > Sebastian,
> >
> > Just to clarify, where the "item changed hands" may not be the seller's
> > location. I use to live just outside the border of a city that charged a
> > sales tax. When purchasing an item from a store within the city, I would
> > pay sales tax if I went into the store, purchased it, and took it home.
> > However, if I went into the store and purchased something that they then
> > delivered to my house, e.g. lumber, there was no sales tax. So the tax
> was
> > based on the delivery address not the seller's location.
>
> Out of idle curiosity ... Is it possible to dream up some complication
> that does *not* occur, somewhere?
>
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Fred Bone]

On 28 February 2022 at 10:28, William Prescott said:

> Sebastian,
> 
> Just to clarify, where the "item changed hands" may not be the seller's
> location. I use to live just outside the border of a city that charged a
> sales tax. When purchasing an item from a store within the city, I would
> pay sales tax if I went into the store, purchased it, and took it home.
> However, if I went into the store and purchased something that they then
> delivered to my house, e.g. lumber, there was no sales tax. So the tax was
> based on the delivery address not the seller's location.

Out of idle curiosity ... Is it possible to dream up some complication 
that does *not* occur, somewhere?

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[William Prescott]

Sebastian,

Just to clarify, where the "item changed hands" may not be the seller's 
location. I use to live just outside the border of a city that charged a sales 
tax. When purchasing an item from a store within the city, I would pay sales 
tax if I went into the store, purchased it, and took it home. However, if I 
went into the store and purchased something that they then delivered to my 
house, e.g. lumber, there was no sales tax. So the tax was based on the 
delivery address not the seller's location.

Will

On 2022 Feb 28, at 02-28 08:58:44, Sebastian Naumann  
wrote:

Hi Michael,

for sure, you are right.

If it's not an internet sale, then the purchase was made at the seller's 
location (i.e. where the item exchanged hands) so the seller charges the rate 
at their location.

Have a great day everyone.

Am 2/28/22 um 3:34 PM schrieb Michael or Penny Novack:
> On 2/28/2022 2:50 AM, Sebastian Naumann wrote:
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> sorry, but I tend to disagree with your statement that "[...] most states 
>> consider the location of the seller to be the nexus...". Actually the second 
>> part of the statement is correct: Most states are destination based, meaning 
>> the location of the buyer is relevant. There you will have to keep in mind 
>> the economic nexus thresholds as well, meaning if you have x transactions / 
>> $x of Gross sales per a certain period in the destination state, you will 
>> have to register there.
>> 
>> Have a great day and please correct me here if you believe that I am wrong.
> 
> I think that is perhaps confusion more than right/wrong.
> 
> In remote sales (internet, etc.)  it is the location of the buyer.
> 
> But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something at a 
> seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on that. Now 
> the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing the whatever 
> home. When they pay that on their state return, they can claim credit for the 
> sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to state B.
> 
> Living as I do in a state which has sales tax and has a neighboring state 
> that does not, I am of course very familiar with this. People living in my 
> state A close to the border often intentionally shop in state B, especially 
> for small things they can get away with not reporting. It is also why state A 
> has a special way of checking that sales tax is paid on big ticket items like 
> vehicles (proof of sales tax needed for registering the vehicle).
> 
> Michael  Novack
> 
> 
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sebastian Naumann
*US Compliance Manager*



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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Sebastian Naumann]

Hi Michael,

for sure, you are right.

If it's not an internet sale, then the purchase was made at the seller's 
location (i.e. where the item exchanged hands) so the seller charges the 
rate at their location.


Have a great day everyone.

Am 2/28/22 um 3:34 PM schrieb Michael or Penny Novack:

On 2/28/2022 2:50 AM, Sebastian Naumann wrote:

Hi John,

sorry, but I tend to disagree with your statement that "[...] most 
states consider the location of the seller to be the nexus...". 
Actually the second part of the statement is correct: Most states are 
destination based, meaning the location of the buyer is relevant. 
There you will have to keep in mind the economic nexus thresholds as 
well, meaning if you have x transactions / $x of Gross sales per a 
certain period in the destination state, you will have to register 
there.


Have a great day and please correct me here if you believe that I am 
wrong.


I think that is perhaps confusion more than right/wrong.

In remote sales (internet, etc.)  it is the location of the buyer.

But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something 
at a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on 
that. Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing 
the whatever home. When they pay that on their state return, they can 
claim credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to 
state B.


Living as I do in a state which has sales tax and has a neighboring 
state that does not, I am of course very familiar with this. People 
living in my state A close to the border often intentionally shop in 
state B, especially for small things they can get away with not 
reporting. It is also why state A has a special way of checking that 
sales tax is paid on big ticket items like vehicles (proof of sales 
tax needed for registering the vehicle).


Michael  Novack


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Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sebastian Naumann
*US Compliance Manager*



*MERCATORZ INTERNATIONAL GmbH & Co. KG*
Klingholzstr. 7
65189 Wiesbaden

Web: www.mercatorz.com 
E-Mail: naum...@mercatorz.com
PGP Fingerprint: DBCF ED37 6B00 25DE C469 5E0B E6B0 15C4 E292 430E
Tel. (direkt): +49 (0) 611 95 00 96-11
Tel.: +49 (0) 611 95 00 96-00

Sitz: DE-65189 Wiesbaden
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Wiesbaden, HRA 11324

Vertreten durch: MERCATORZ Verwaltungs GmbH
Geschäftsführer: Michael Kempe, Thorsten Wedemann
Sitz: DE-65189 Wiesbaden
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Wiesbaden, HRB 32973

/Vertraulichkeitserklärung / Legal Notice
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Stan Brown]

On 2022-02-28 06:34, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something at
> a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on that.
> Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing the
> whatever home.

The tax the buyer pays to their home state after "importing" goods for
personal use is called use tax in every state I've lived in.

You didn't mention the case where buyer and seller are in different
taxing jurisdictions within the same state. I don't know how other
states do it, but when you live in county C in California, go to a
dealer in county D in California, and buy a car, the dealer is required
to charge sales tax at county C's rate, not county D's. Probably the
same is true for boats. For smaller items, you pay at the rate of the
seller's county, and there's no credit if you take the goods back to
your home in a lower-tax county.

> When they pay that on their state return, they can claim
> credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to state B.

Maybe. Some states don't allow it, or allow it only up to the home
state's tax rate.

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 2/28/2022 2:50 AM, Sebastian Naumann wrote:

Hi John,

sorry, but I tend to disagree with your statement that "[...] most 
states consider the location of the seller to be the nexus...". 
Actually the second part of the statement is correct: Most states are 
destination based, meaning the location of the buyer is relevant. 
There you will have to keep in mind the economic nexus thresholds as 
well, meaning if you have x transactions / $x of Gross sales per a 
certain period in the destination state, you will have to register there.


Have a great day and please correct me here if you believe that I am 
wrong.


I think that is perhaps confusion more than right/wrong.

In remote sales (internet, etc.)  it is the location of the buyer.

But if not a remote sale, if person living in state A buys something at 
a seller in state B (and state B has sales tax) collected based on that. 
Now the buyer might still owe sales tax to state A when bringing the 
whatever home. When they pay that on their state return, they can claim 
credit for the sales tax (if any) already paid for that thing to state B.


Living as I do in a state which has sales tax and has a neighboring 
state that does not, I am of course very familiar with this. People 
living in my state A close to the border often intentionally shop in 
state B, especially for small things they can get away with not 
reporting. It is also why state A has a special way of checking that 
sales tax is paid on big ticket items like vehicles (proof of sales tax 
needed for registering the vehicle).


Michael  Novack


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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Sebastian Naumann]

Hi John,

sorry, but I tend to disagree with your statement that "[...] most 
states consider the location of the seller to be the nexus...". Actually 
the second part of the statement is correct: Most states are destination 
based, meaning the location of the buyer is relevant. There you will 
have to keep in mind the economic nexus thresholds as well, meaning if 
you have x transactions / $x of Gross sales per a certain period in the 
destination state, you will have to register there.


Have a great day and please correct me here if you believe that I am wrong.

Am 2/22/22 um 9:58 PM schrieb John Layman:

A further complication in calculating sales tax is that there is no uniform law 
regarding nexus.  Whereas most states consider the location of the seller to be 
the nexus, there are others where the nexus is that of the buyer!  In Florida, 
a seller in Okeechobee shipping an alligator skin wallet to a buyer in 
Pensacola is supposed to charge sales tax at the rate of the buyer's location 
600 miles away.  And, if the purchase was made from an online store whose owner 
was in Baton Rouge, same thing.   Sales tax is one reason there is a difference 
between point-of-sale systems and accounting packages.



-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user  On 
Behalf Of Adrien Monteleone
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 12:45 PM
To:gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

Yeah, without a receipt in hand (or electronic) showing the breakout, no 
software can assume or guess reliably. That is just insane.

In my state, you can have one location in one jurisdiction depending on what 
side of the street it is on, and the two properties to the left and right can 
each be in other separate districts. And then, you have to take into account 
purchasing location vs. delivery, and then the type of item or service.

That is impossible for any software, paid for or not, to 'guess' based merely 
on a description containing a business name.

Even if you pre-specified what each business you buy from charges, you might 
end up getting it wrong. (my grocery receipt for example charges one rate for 
food 'for home consumption' and another for everything else, and those 
subtotals of course vary from purchase to purchase)

And that doesn't even scratch 'tax holidays'! (or that local rates can change 4 
times a year!)

Regards,
Adrien

On 2/21/22 9:00 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:

Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category,
service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane
variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight
exaggeration).

And not only is it that complex, but the DATA (what IS the
jurisdiction that applies) is typically not available. Almost always
the information by the vendor, just the postal address.

For example, while my town (township) does indeed have a PO with zip
code 01338 that post office delivers no mail (just for PO boxes inside
that post office). On the other hand, four different post office with
zip codes 01330, 01339, 01340, and 01370 do deliver mail to addresses
located in my town. So EVERY street address in my town has some other
town in the address << well one of those isn't a "town" but a village
on the boundary of two towns (townships) >>

There was a period during which when writing a letter to my
Congressman I had to make it very clear, "Yes, I AM a constituent
living in your district in spite of appearances" (the "town" on my
address was outside his district)

And I can think of a merchandise category/seller category tax
difference in my state. Buy a pair of gloves (clothing, not taxed) in
a clothing store/department store vs buy the SAME pair of gloves
(protective gear,
taxed) in a hardware store.

BTW --- usually responsibility for figuring sales tax is in the POS
system, not the accounting package being fed by POS (POS would also
interact with the Inventory system). The accounting package is just
one part of an "integrated business system".

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[John Layman]

A further complication in calculating sales tax is that there is no uniform law 
regarding nexus.  Whereas most states consider the location of the seller to be 
the nexus, there are others where the nexus is that of the buyer!  In Florida, 
a seller in Okeechobee shipping an alligator skin wallet to a buyer in 
Pensacola is supposed to charge sales tax at the rate of the buyer's location 
600 miles away.  And, if the purchase was made from an online store whose owner 
was in Baton Rouge, same thing.   Sales tax is one reason there is a difference 
between point-of-sale systems and accounting packages.



-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user  On 
Behalf Of Adrien Monteleone
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 12:45 PM
To: gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

Yeah, without a receipt in hand (or electronic) showing the breakout, no 
software can assume or guess reliably. That is just insane.

In my state, you can have one location in one jurisdiction depending on what 
side of the street it is on, and the two properties to the left and right can 
each be in other separate districts. And then, you have to take into account 
purchasing location vs. delivery, and then the type of item or service.

That is impossible for any software, paid for or not, to 'guess' based merely 
on a description containing a business name.

Even if you pre-specified what each business you buy from charges, you might 
end up getting it wrong. (my grocery receipt for example charges one rate for 
food 'for home consumption' and another for everything else, and those 
subtotals of course vary from purchase to purchase)

And that doesn't even scratch 'tax holidays'! (or that local rates can change 4 
times a year!)

Regards,
Adrien

On 2/21/22 9:00 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:
>> Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, 
>> service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane 
>> variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight 
>> exaggeration).
> 
> And not only is it that complex, but the DATA (what IS the 
> jurisdiction that applies) is typically not available. Almost always  
> the information by the vendor, just the postal address.
> 
> For example, while my town (township) does indeed have a PO with zip 
> code 01338 that post office delivers no mail (just for PO boxes inside 
> that post office). On the other hand, four different post office with 
> zip codes 01330, 01339, 01340, and 01370 do deliver mail to addresses 
> located in my town. So EVERY street address in my town has some other 
> town in the address << well one of those isn't a "town" but a village 
> on the boundary of two towns (townships) >>
> 
> There was a period during which when writing a letter to my 
> Congressman I had to make it very clear, "Yes, I AM a constituent 
> living in your district in spite of appearances" (the "town" on my 
> address was outside his district)
> 
> And I can think of a merchandise category/seller category tax 
> difference in my state. Buy a pair of gloves (clothing, not taxed) in 
> a clothing store/department store vs buy the SAME pair of gloves 
> (protective gear,
> taxed) in a hardware store.
> 
> BTW --- usually responsibility for figuring sales tax is in the POS 
> system, not the accounting package being fed by POS (POS would also 
> interact with the Inventory system). The accounting package is just 
> one part of an "integrated business system".

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax << slightly off topic (but mail related) >>

[Sebastian Naumann]

Hi everyone,

if you need info / help with Sales Tax, I would be more than happy to 
help. This is actually what my company does. Even though we mainly deal 
with Online Retailers that generate Nexus thru the Inventory in the 
amazon warehouses across the country, we can certainly help answering 
any questions that arise.


Have a great day.

Am 2/22/22 um 3:08 AM schrieb Stephen M. Butler:

On 2/21/22 10:52, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/21/2022 1:09 PM, Stephen M. Butler wrote:

Here in Washington state the state does post an address file to 
assigns rate codes by address.  In at least one case two houses with 
the same zip+4 are in different location codes.  Most web hosts POS 
systems can only go down to the zip code level.  Thankfully I don't 
have enough sales outside the state to worry about taxes in the 
other states!


--Steve  (www.hamflags.com)


Do you know how they get the mail to the folks who live on Pt Roberts?

For those who don't know this, there are two little bits of the US 
(lower 48) that though not islands have no land connection to the US 
and this is one of them. Have to go through Canada. I guess since 
Puget Sound doesn't freeze they could use boats. Northwest Angle (MN) 
is the other and during the time Lake of the Woods is neither open 
nor frozen solid, boats would be out.


The only time I ever discussed this with PO "experts" they said they 
couldn't imagine sent in sealed bags through Canada << I didn't tell 
then that once upon a time Canada  had that sort of arrangement with 
us for mail to the Yukon -- Before the highway, the only way in was 
the railroad from Skagway Alaska to Whitehorse and mail came up from 
Vancouver by ship and then the railroad over the pass back into 
Canada. So why not reciprocal arrangements >>


Michael D Novack



According to an Internet search it appears they send mail via boat 
to/from Seattle.  Mail sent from Pt Roberts is post-marked Seattle. I 
presume incoming mail is sent out from Seattle by boat.


You're right, Puget Sound does not freeze -- but there are days that 
it feels that way!


--Steve


Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sebastian Naumann
*US Compliance Manager*



*MERCATORZ INTERNATIONAL GmbH & Co. KG*
Klingholzstr. 7
65189 Wiesbaden

Web: www.mercatorz.com 
E-Mail: naum...@mercatorz.com
PGP Fingerprint: DBCF ED37 6B00 25DE C469 5E0B E6B0 15C4 E292 430E
Tel. (direkt): +49 (0) 611 95 00 96-11
Tel.: +49 (0) 611 95 00 96-00

Sitz: DE-65189 Wiesbaden
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Wiesbaden, HRA 11324

Vertreten durch: MERCATORZ Verwaltungs GmbH
Geschäftsführer: Michael Kempe, Thorsten Wedemann
Sitz: DE-65189 Wiesbaden
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Wiesbaden, HRB 32973

/Vertraulichkeitserklärung / Legal Notice
Diese E-Mail enthält Informationen, die rechtlich geschützt oder 
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This e-mail contains information that may be privileged or confidential. 
It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are 
not the intended recipient or have received this e-mail in error please 
notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized 
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Liz]

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 18:54:21 -0600
Adrien Monteleone  wrote:

> Keith,
> 
> I’m not a mod.
> 
> The instructions for unsubscribing are at the bottom of each e-mail.
> You have to do it yourself.
> 
> You can turn on Digest Mode if you prefer in your preferences.
> 
> Please don’t e-mail list members personally unless requested to do
> so, especially without copying the list.
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien


And as the person with the password to subscribe and unsubscribe
people, I am not going to do such a thing on that sort of request. 

My mail client will happily substitute different email addresses so I
am well aware that something which says its from a person's email may
well not be. Requests can be genuine or not.

To unsubscribe yourself you need your password, and can have one sent
to you to accomplish the task. 

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax << slightly off topic (but mail related) >>

[Stephen M. Butler]

On 2/21/22 10:52, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/21/2022 1:09 PM, Stephen M. Butler wrote:

Here in Washington state the state does post an address file to 
assigns rate codes by address.  In at least one case two houses with 
the same zip+4 are in different location codes.  Most web hosts POS 
systems can only go down to the zip code level.  Thankfully I don't 
have enough sales outside the state to worry about taxes in the other 
states!


--Steve  (www.hamflags.com)


Do you know how they get the mail to the folks who live on Pt Roberts?

For those who don't know this, there are two little bits of the US 
(lower 48) that though not islands have no land connection to the US 
and this is one of them. Have to go through Canada. I guess since 
Puget Sound doesn't freeze they could use boats. Northwest Angle (MN) 
is the other and during the time Lake of the Woods is neither open nor 
frozen solid, boats would be out.


The only time I ever discussed this with PO "experts" they said they 
couldn't imagine sent in sealed bags through Canada << I didn't tell 
then that once upon a time Canada  had that sort of arrangement with 
us for mail to the Yukon -- Before the highway, the only way in was 
the railroad from Skagway Alaska to Whitehorse and mail came up from 
Vancouver by ship and then the railroad over the pass back into 
Canada. So why not reciprocal arrangements >>


Michael D Novack



According to an Internet search it appears they send mail via boat 
to/from Seattle.  Mail sent from Pt Roberts is post-marked Seattle. I 
presume incoming mail is sent out from Seattle by boat.


You're right, Puget Sound does not freeze -- but there are days that it 
feels that way!


--Steve

--
Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
253-350-0166
---
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

Keith,

I’m not a mod.

The instructions for unsubscribing are at the bottom of each e-mail. You have 
to do it yourself.

You can turn on Digest Mode if you prefer in your preferences.

Please don’t e-mail list members personally unless requested to do so, 
especially without copying the list.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Feb 21, 2022 w9d52, at 2:48 PM, keith adams  wrote:
> 
> Please unsubscribe me from the GNU mailing list - I cannot deal with 15-25 
> more emails
>  daily - Thank You!

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax << slightly off topic (but mail related) >>

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 2/21/2022 1:09 PM, Stephen M. Butler wrote:

Here in Washington state the state does post an address file to 
assigns rate codes by address.  In at least one case two houses with 
the same zip+4 are in different location codes.  Most web hosts POS 
systems can only go down to the zip code level.  Thankfully I don't 
have enough sales outside the state to worry about taxes in the other 
states!


--Steve  (www.hamflags.com)


Do you know how they get the mail to the folks who live on Pt Roberts?

For those who don't know this, there are two little bits of the US 
(lower 48) that though not islands have no land connection to the US and 
this is one of them. Have to go through Canada. I guess since Puget 
Sound doesn't freeze they could use boats. Northwest Angle (MN) is the 
other and during the time Lake of the Woods is neither open nor frozen 
solid, boats would be out.


The only time I ever discussed this with PO "experts" they said they 
couldn't imagine sent in sealed bags through Canada << I didn't tell 
then that once upon a time Canada  had that sort of arrangement with us 
for mail to the Yukon -- Before the highway, the only way in was the 
railroad from Skagway Alaska to Whitehorse and mail came up from 
Vancouver by ship and then the railroad over the pass back into Canada. 
So why not reciprocal arrangements >>


Michael D Novack

--
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality 
of the grave.

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Stephen M. Butler]

On 2/21/22 07:00, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:
Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, 
service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane 
variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight 
exaggeration).


And not only is it that complex, but the DATA (what IS the 
jurisdiction that applies) is typically not available. Almost always  
the information by the vendor, just the postal address.


For example, while my town (township) does indeed have a PO with zip 
code 01338 that post office delivers no mail (just for PO boxes inside 
that post office). On the other hand, four different post office with 
zip codes 01330, 01339, 01340, and 01370 do deliver mail to addresses 
located in my town. So EVERY street address in my town has some other 
town in the address << well one of those isn't a "town" but a village 
on the boundary of two towns (townships) >>


There was a period during which when writing a letter to my 
Congressman I had to make it very clear, "Yes, I AM a constituent 
living in your district in spite of appearances" (the "town" on my 
address was outside his district)


And I can think of a merchandise category/seller category tax 
difference in my state. Buy a pair of gloves (clothing, not taxed) in 
a clothing store/department store vs buy the SAME pair of gloves 
(protective gear, taxed) in a hardware store.


BTW --- usually responsibility for figuring sales tax is in the POS 
system, not the accounting package being fed by POS (POS would also 
interact with the Inventory system). The accounting package is just 
one part of an "integrated business system".


Michael D Novack


Here in Washington state the state does post an address file to assigns 
rate codes by address.  In at least one case two houses with the same 
zip+4 are in different location codes.  Most web hosts POS systems can 
only go down to the zip code level.  Thankfully I don't have enough 
sales outside the state to worry about taxes in the other states!


--Steve  (www.hamflags.com)

--
Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
253-350-0166
---
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

Yeah, without a receipt in hand (or electronic) showing the breakout, no 
software can assume or guess reliably. That is just insane.


In my state, you can have one location in one jurisdiction depending on 
what side of the street it is on, and the two properties to the left and 
right can each be in other separate districts. And then, you have to 
take into account purchasing location vs. delivery, and then the type of 
item or service.


That is impossible for any software, paid for or not, to 'guess' based 
merely on a description containing a business name.


Even if you pre-specified what each business you buy from charges, you 
might end up getting it wrong. (my grocery receipt for example charges 
one rate for food 'for home consumption' and another for everything 
else, and those subtotals of course vary from purchase to purchase)


And that doesn't even scratch 'tax holidays'! (or that local rates can 
change 4 times a year!)


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/21/22 9:00 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:
Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, 
service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane 
variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight 
exaggeration).


And not only is it that complex, but the DATA (what IS the jurisdiction 
that applies) is typically not available. Almost always  the information 
by the vendor, just the postal address.


For example, while my town (township) does indeed have a PO with zip 
code 01338 that post office delivers no mail (just for PO boxes inside 
that post office). On the other hand, four different post office with 
zip codes 01330, 01339, 01340, and 01370 do deliver mail to addresses 
located in my town. So EVERY street address in my town has some other 
town in the address << well one of those isn't a "town" but a village on 
the boundary of two towns (townships) >>


There was a period during which when writing a letter to my Congressman 
I had to make it very clear, "Yes, I AM a constituent living in your 
district in spite of appearances" (the "town" on my address was outside 
his district)


And I can think of a merchandise category/seller category tax difference 
in my state. Buy a pair of gloves (clothing, not taxed) in a clothing 
store/department store vs buy the SAME pair of gloves (protective gear, 
taxed) in a hardware store.


BTW --- usually responsibility for figuring sales tax is in the POS 
system, not the accounting package being fed by POS (POS would also 
interact with the Inventory system). The accounting package is just one 
part of an "integrated business system".


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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 2/20/2022 7:58 PM, David Carlson wrote:
Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, 
service category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane 
variables as library district (well, that last one may be a slight 
exaggeration).


And not only is it that complex, but the DATA (what IS the jurisdiction 
that applies) is typically not available. Almost always  the information 
by the vendor, just the postal address.


For example, while my town (township) does indeed have a PO with zip 
code 01338 that post office delivers no mail (just for PO boxes inside 
that post office). On the other hand, four different post office with 
zip codes 01330, 01339, 01340, and 01370 do deliver mail to addresses 
located in my town. So EVERY street address in my town has some other 
town in the address << well one of those isn't a "town" but a village on 
the boundary of two towns (townships) >>


There was a period during which when writing a letter to my Congressman 
I had to make it very clear, "Yes, I AM a constituent living in your 
district in spite of appearances" (the "town" on my address was outside 
his district)


And I can think of a merchandise category/seller category tax difference 
in my state. Buy a pair of gloves (clothing, not taxed) in a clothing 
store/department store vs buy the SAME pair of gloves (protective gear, 
taxed) in a hardware store.


BTW --- usually responsibility for figuring sales tax is in the POS 
system, not the accounting package being fed by POS (POS would also 
interact with the Inventory system). The accounting package is just one 
part of an "integrated business system".


Michael D Novack

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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[David Carlson]

Here in Illinois it varies by county, city, merchandise category, service
category, seller category and sometimes by such arcane variables as library
district (well, that last one may be a slight exaggeration).

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022, 6:33 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 2/20/2022 4:33 PM, Don Robertson wrote:
> > Seems most other software will do this - Xero, MYOB etc. For open
> > source fans, Kmymoney seems pretty good.
> >
> > And before you start mailing me personally, if you don't want to hear
> > what people think of your software, perhaps you should consider
> > removing this from all your posts:
>
> Correctly? I doubt that ANY software does sales tax absolutely correctly.
>
> Here in the US the issue is sales tax which varies by state (both rate
> and what tax is or is not applied to).  For internet sales, that would
> be the state of the location where delivery is to be made.
>
> Well ..has any vendor with whom you have done business ever
> collected that information? Yes of course, asked for you address, but
> did the vendor ALSO ask you "what state is that address in?". I rather
> suspect most vendors as well as most writers of the relevant software
> are aware of the fact that postal address (mail delivery) does NOT
> respect state boundaries and so the "tax state" of all addresses located
> close to a state boundary are suspect (might be different than the PO
> state).
>
> To be absolutely correct, would need to collect that information from
> the customer OR use mapping databases to locate the (physical) address
> and see what state that was in.
>
> Michael D Novack
>
> PS -- My working days was doing software for a life insurance company.
> We DID collect "contract state" for the policy record because could make
> a very big difference which state's laws would apply.
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 2/20/2022 4:33 PM, Don Robertson wrote:
Seems most other software will do this - Xero, MYOB etc. For open 
source fans, Kmymoney seems pretty good.


And before you start mailing me personally, if you don't want to hear 
what people think of your software, perhaps you should consider 
removing this from all your posts: 


Correctly? I doubt that ANY software does sales tax absolutely correctly.

Here in the US the issue is sales tax which varies by state (both rate 
and what tax is or is not applied to).  For internet sales, that would 
be the state of the location where delivery is to be made.


Well ..has any vendor with whom you have done business ever 
collected that information? Yes of course, asked for you address, but 
did the vendor ALSO ask you "what state is that address in?". I rather 
suspect most vendors as well as most writers of the relevant software 
are aware of the fact that postal address (mail delivery) does NOT 
respect state boundaries and so the "tax state" of all addresses located 
close to a state boundary are suspect (might be different than the PO 
state).


To be absolutely correct, would need to collect that information from 
the customer OR use mapping databases to locate the (physical) address 
and see what state that was in.


Michael D Novack

PS -- My working days was doing software for a life insurance company. 
We DID collect "contract state" for the policy record because could make 
a very big difference which state's laws would apply.



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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[davidcousens49]

The thing is Don all those other software packages charge you an arm and a leg
in most cases for their software. This allows them have paid development teams
who customize their products for each specific jurisdictions in which they
operate. 

GNuCash does not.  GnuCash is used internationally in a wide variety of
countries, maintained totally by volunteer effort by a relatively small core
team with a lot of us hangng around the edges. The customisation depends on
demand and the availability of someone with the necessary skills and knowledge
of the software and software development as well as the interest to carry out
and test the changes.

If KMyMoney does better meet your needs, then by all means use it.

Good luck

David Cousens



On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 10:33 +1300, Don Robertson wrote:
> Seems most other software will do this - Xero, MYOB etc. For open source 
> fans, Kmymoney seems pretty good.
> 
> And before you start mailing me personally, if you don't want to hear 
> what people think of your software, perhaps you should consider removing 
> this from all your posts:
> 
>  >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>  >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> 
> And maybe check your reply to addresses.
> 
> Anyway - it has been fun. Good luck.
> 
> ___
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Re: [GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Adrien Monteleone]

I'm confused, is this part of some other thread? Or just a drive-by?

Yes, GnuCash can do sales tax calculations too. Are you having trouble 
figuring it out?


And the bit about CC'ing the list is specifically so people keep all 
discussion on the list, and *not* e-mailing list members personally. Not 
sure what your comment is about on this point.


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/20/22 3:33 PM, Don Robertson wrote:
Seems most other software will do this - Xero, MYOB etc. For open source 
fans, Kmymoney seems pretty good.


And before you start mailing me personally, if you don't want to hear 
what people think of your software, perhaps you should consider removing 
this from all your posts:


 >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
 >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

And maybe check your reply to addresses.

Anyway - it has been fun. Good luck.


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[GNC] Automatic sales tax

[Don Robertson]

Seems most other software will do this - Xero, MYOB etc. For open source 
fans, Kmymoney seems pretty good.


And before you start mailing me personally, if you don't want to hear 
what people think of your software, perhaps you should consider removing 
this from all your posts:


>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

And maybe check your reply to addresses.

Anyway - it has been fun. Good luck.

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