Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[BobBriscoe]

David Goodenough-2 wrote
> The problem is that GC needs to be allocated a program ID which we have to
> keep secret, 
> but needs to be issued to any user.  No ID and GC users can not go through
> the OAuth2 
> process every 18 months.
> 
> GC could put the code on a web site and have the GC code retrieve it,
> which is the cabinet 
> office solution to the problem, but given that the code to retreive it
> would be open source 
> GC would have no control over how the code was used.  If HMRC decide that
> someone 
> using the GC code is messing with their systems then they would ban that
> code and thus 
> all legitimate GC users.

I read through the  MTD (VAT) API documentation

  
yesterday, and although the API itself looks relatively straightforward, I
agree that the Authorization aspect is the hard part if you are not used to
writing this type of application.

By my reading of  HMRC's OAuth 2.0 documentation

 
, the client_id (which I assume is what you mean by a program ID) is not a
secret, it's merely a unique identifier for the application. It looks like
communication with the app uses i) a URI for the app (which can be local);
ii) the client_id to ensure it is talking to the right type of app; and iii)
an optional state variable that the app can generate to distinguish
different interactions.

The basic idea seems to be that your software is expected to be able to make
the HMRC's login page visible to the user, and give a redirect URI so that,
once the user has logged in, the HMRC server can return a code to the
original calling app at this URI. The original app then has 10 minutes to
POST this code to HMRC's token endpoint to get back an access token that it
can use against the MTD (VAT) API for the next 4 hours before having to
refresh it. Caveat: I haven't tried it yet.

I'm not planning on using GnuCash, but I'm considering writing bridging
software from LibreOffice calc, and I came across this thread while
searching for MTD solutions that will work on Linux. I don't really want to
spend my time on this, but I might have to, given I do the accounting for
two small VAT-registered businesses.


Bob



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Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[David Goodenough]

On Thursday, 16 August 2018 17:00:29 BST Alain D D Williams wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 04, 2018 at 06:46:25AM +0100, Maf. King wrote:
> > > This should be on the devel list perhaps.
> 
> I have just subscribed there.
> 
> > it does seem to me from reading the link provided in the OP that a GC
> > report or two feeding into a spreadsheet containing the "api magic" HMRC
> > talk about might be a way forward.  GC doesn't have to directly submit
> > the return to HMRC, if I understood the notes properly.
> 
> This seems to me the easiest way forwards: create a standalone ''file
> transfer'' program that could send a GC report (well defined format, maybe
> CSV - looking like a spreadsheet) to HMRC.
> 
> A separate program would probably be easier to get up & running and should
> avoid any re-certification issues that might appear if these needed to be
> done with every new version of GC. Such a separate program could also be
> useful to others (ie non GC users) who need a means of submitting to HMRC.
> 
> I would be willing to help in writing/debugging such a (hopefully small)
> beast. I have no doubt that it will be more complicated than I would wish.
> 
> I have not looked at the GC code, but I am an experienced programmer.
> 
> Sorry for the delay in replying - been on holiday.
The problem is that GC needs to be allocated a program ID which we have to keep 
secret, 
but needs to be issued to any user.  No ID and GC users can not go through the 
OAuth2 
process every 18 months.

GC could put the code on a web site and have the GC code retrieve it, which is 
the cabinet 
office solution to the problem, but given that the code to retreive it would be 
open source 
GC would have no control over how the code was used.  If HMRC decide that 
someone 
using the GC code is messing with their systems then they would ban that code 
and thus 
all legitimate GC users.

David

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Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[Alain D D Williams]

On Sat, Aug 04, 2018 at 06:46:25AM +0100, Maf. King wrote:

> > This should be on the devel list perhaps.

I have just subscribed there.


> it does seem to me from reading the link provided in the OP that a GC report 
> or two feeding into a spreadsheet containing the "api magic" HMRC talk about 
> might be a way forward.  GC doesn't have to directly submit the return to 
> HMRC, if I understood the notes properly.

This seems to me the easiest way forwards: create a standalone ''file transfer''
program that could send a GC report (well defined format, maybe CSV - looking
like a spreadsheet) to HMRC.

A separate program would probably be easier to get up & running and should avoid
any re-certification issues that might appear if these needed to be done with
every new version of GC. Such a separate program could also be useful to others
(ie non GC users) who need a means of submitting to HMRC.

I would be willing to help in writing/debugging such a (hopefully small) beast.
I have no doubt that it will be more complicated than I would wish.

I have not looked at the GC code, but I am an experienced programmer.

Sorry for the delay in replying - been on holiday.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
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Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[Maf. King]

On Saturday, 4 August 2018 06:46:25 BST Maf. King wrote:
> On Friday, 3 August 2018 17:17:46 BST Mike Evans wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:10:46 +0100
> > 
> > Alain D D Williams  wrote:
> > > This is the UK government's edict any business with a turnover of more
> > > than
> > > £85k/year will *need* to use accounting software and use that to submit
> > > tax
> > > returns - from April 2019 (& all above £10k from April 2020).
> > > 
> > > https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hmrc-publishes-more-information-on-ma
> > > ki
> > > ng-tax-digital
> > > 
> > > This was discussed here some time ago, but was inconclusive.
> > 
> > This was discussed briefly on the devel list but judging by the lack of
> > response I guess that there are very few UK users that are affected.
> > 
> > Inserting this into the GnuCash code I think is unrealistic for the
> > apparently few users and specific use-case.  One could, I suppose, use a
> > Python to extract the relevant data and interact with the HMRC API as a
> > separate application that has access to the GnuCash data book. I imagine
> > extracting the required data should be (relatively) easy, and (simply)
> > interfacing with HMRC is all that's required from there.
> > 
> > I signed up as a developer and have written some python that gets through
> > the oauth2 part. I'm now trying to interface with the "Individual Tax"
> > API.
> > Just getting various errors at the moment but that's better than
> > yesterday.
> > 
> >  I've no idea yet as to what data is required to push to the API, I can't
> > 
> > find any relevant info.
> > 
> > This should be on the devel list perhaps.
> > 
> > Mike E
> 
> It will affect me, but I'm not in a position to do much about it or work on
> a solution, and am certainly not on the -devel list.  I need to talk to my
> accountant later in the year about this.  My VAT affairs are pretty
> straightforward and I've always done my own returns.  I might have to move
> the business books away from GC if there is no alternative.
> 
> it does seem to me from reading the link provided in the OP that a GC report
> or two feeding into a spreadsheet containing the "api magic" HMRC talk
> about might be a way forward.  GC doesn't have to directly submit the
> return to HMRC, if I understood the notes properly.
> 
> Maf.

Should have said too: will help with testing a GC solution, if there is one 
under development

Maf.




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Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[Maf. King]

On Friday, 3 August 2018 17:17:46 BST Mike Evans wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:10:46 +0100
> 
> Alain D D Williams  wrote:
> > This is the UK government's edict any business with a turnover of more
> > than
> > £85k/year will *need* to use accounting software and use that to submit
> > tax
> > returns - from April 2019 (& all above £10k from April 2020).
> > 
> > https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hmrc-publishes-more-information-on-maki
> > ng-tax-digital
> > 
> > This was discussed here some time ago, but was inconclusive.
> 
> This was discussed briefly on the devel list but judging by the lack of
> response I guess that there are very few UK users that are affected.
> 
> Inserting this into the GnuCash code I think is unrealistic for the
> apparently few users and specific use-case.  One could, I suppose, use a
> Python to extract the relevant data and interact with the HMRC API as a
> separate application that has access to the GnuCash data book. I imagine
> extracting the required data should be (relatively) easy, and (simply)
> interfacing with HMRC is all that's required from there.
> 
> I signed up as a developer and have written some python that gets through
> the oauth2 part. I'm now trying to interface with the "Individual Tax" API.
> Just getting various errors at the moment but that's better than yesterday.
>  I've no idea yet as to what data is required to push to the API, I can't
> find any relevant info.
> 
> This should be on the devel list perhaps.
> 
> Mike E

It will affect me, but I'm not in a position to do much about it or work on a 
solution, and am certainly not on the -devel list.  I need to talk to my 
accountant later in the year about this.  My VAT affairs are pretty 
straightforward and I've always done my own returns.  I might have to move the 
business books away from GC if there is no alternative.

it does seem to me from reading the link provided in the OP that a GC report 
or two feeding into a spreadsheet containing the "api magic" HMRC talk about 
might be a way forward.  GC doesn't have to directly submit the return to 
HMRC, if I understood the notes properly.

Maf.




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Re: [GNC] UK specific: any progress on MTD (Making Tax Difficult) ?

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:10:46 +0100
Alain D D Williams  wrote:

> This is the UK government's edict any business with a turnover of more than
> £85k/year will *need* to use accounting software and use that to submit tax
> returns - from April 2019 (& all above £10k from April 2020).
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hmrc-publishes-more-information-on-making-tax-digital
> 
> This was discussed here some time ago, but was inconclusive.
> 

This was discussed briefly on the devel list but judging by the lack of 
response I guess that there are very few UK users that are affected.

Inserting this into the GnuCash code I think is unrealistic for the apparently 
few users and specific use-case.  One could, I suppose, use a Python to extract 
the relevant data and interact with the HMRC API as a separate application that 
has access to the GnuCash data book. I imagine extracting the required data 
should be (relatively) easy, and (simply) interfacing with HMRC is all that's 
required from there.

I signed up as a developer and have written some python that gets through the 
oauth2 part. I'm now trying to interface with the "Individual Tax" API. Just 
getting various errors at the moment but that's better than yesterday.  I've no 
idea yet as to what data is required to push to the API, I can't find any 
relevant info.

This should be on the devel list perhaps.

Mike E

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