Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Am Donnerstag 25 März 2021 15:56:10 schrieb Robert J. Hansen via Gnupg-users: > I don't want to be associated with anything where he's in a > position of authority. (Though we did establish that GnuPG is indendent of GNU decisions these days. And FSFE is an independent organisation. Both share some important name-parts with what RMS did and does, so yes there is an association some people make. But the authority is not here and hasn't been for many years. Anyhow, it is your decision of course.) > Kindness counts. Let's practice some. :) Yes, please, thanks! :) Bernhard -- www.intevation.de/~bernhard +49 541 33 508 3-3 Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998 Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
So to me, your statement is too general and may provoke some folks. (You could see that Werner and myself also refrained from general reasoning. :) ) I would also like to say that I have tried to make my stepping-away as painless and as friendly as possible. I don't want to see ill will erupt in our community. I like this community. If anyone turns this into an occasion to launch a political flamewar, I will be very sad. Please don't do that. My reasons for stepping away are simple. I don't like RMS. I think he is unkind. I don't want to be associated with anything where he's in a position of authority. It really is that simple. It has nothing to do with politics, "cancel culture", or anything else like that. Kindness counts. Let's practice some. :) OpenPGP_0x1DCBDC01B44427C7.asc Description: OpenPGP public key OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Johan, please let us stick to GnuPG topics on this list. Robert's mail was on topic because he stated why he stepped down as FAQ maintainer. We also shed light on which influence the GNU project had on GnuPG (little for many years). Am Mittwoch 24 März 2021 20:15:28 schrieb Johan Wevers: > Excelent news, finally a case So to me, your statement is too general and may provoke some folks. (You could see that Werner and myself also refrained from general reasoning. :) ) Best Regards, Bernhard -- www.intevation.de/~bernhard +49 541 33 508 3-3 Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998 Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
It's sad to see someone like you stepping down by a cause such as this. But we cannot but thank you for your support to the project all these years. So long... and thanks for keeping all the Answers. :-) ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
On 23-03-2021 6:59, Robert J. Hansen via Gnupg-users wrote: > Last year when the FSF removed him from the Board of Directors, I > welcomed the news. I hoped the FSF would appoint better leaders. They > did not: instead, they've reappointed him to the board. Excelent news, finally a case where cancel culture has been overruled. That was about time in the current McCarthyism-like culture in the US, where "communist" is replaced by "non-woke". -- ir. J.C.A. Wevers PGP/GPG public keys at http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/pgpkeys.html ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Robert J. Hansen via Gnupg-users wrote: I first heard of the GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation in 1995. For twenty-six years I've supported the FSF and FSFE in a variety of different ways. For these twenty-six years, Richard Stallman has been at the forefront of the FSF. In all that time I have trouble remembering when I have ever seen him be kind. My direct experiences with him have all been frustrating. I know many hackers whose direct experiences have been harrowing. I do not know a single hacker whose direct experiences have been marked by kindness. Perhaps he has turned over a new leaf; I have not had those problems in my interactions (admittedly all by email) with him. Also admittedly, my interactions have all been relatively recent, and in contexts related to picking up maintaining DejaGnu, so an effort at reform would explain the horror stories others have told that do not match my experience. Last year when the FSF removed him from the Board of Directors, I welcomed the news. I hoped the FSF would appoint better leaders. They did not: instead, they've reappointed him to the board. The circumstances as I understand them of that removal were quite bad and reappointing RMS was probably a right thing to do. That said, I am somewhat troubled by the apparent inability to find another leader because it bodes ill for the inevitable day when reappointing RMS will no longer be an option. -- Jacob ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:34, Bernhard Reiter said: > restructured.) So yes, RMS had some influence over GnuPG. I don't think I've He has not more influence on GnuPG than on GNOME, which he claims to be the GNU desktop. GnuPG still shows the FSF copyright on Unix e as an appreciation for all the things the _GNU hackers_ did for the free software movement. > I doubt that this was an official advise from FSFE. ;) I won't comment this here. [I founded the FSFE together with a couple of friends but left the FSFE a few years ago for a reason.] Shalom-Salam, Werner -- Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz. signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Am Dienstag 23 März 2021 10:23:32 schrieb Robert J. Hansen via Gnupg-users: > Regardless of whether he officially has power, he clearly unofficially > has power. He's contacted me a few times over the years to insist on > changes to the FAQ, usually over incredibly silly details like saying > our pronunciation guidance was wrong because we advised people to > pronounce GNU as two syllables, guh-NOO. GnuPG used to be an official part of the GNU project. (But this is less relevant now. Personally I believe the GNU project should have been declared successfully concluded a few years ago. And work restructured.) So yes, RMS had some influence over GnuPG. I don't think I've heard about anything in this regard for years. So just like anybody: If he would send a nice patch or suggestion, we'd look at it. > When I spoke to someone within FSFE (name omitted for their privacy) about > his 'help', I was told to just do what he wanted in order to make him go > away. I doubt that this was an official advise from FSFE. ;) This probably was practical advise within the GNU projects development teams: If the requests are small and you have no particular reasons to not make them, doing them is a way to handle them quickly. (My personal perspective is that RMS has done some good work and deserves credit for that, but he can be (and should be) criticised for the bad stuff he did, too.) Best Regards, Bernhard -- www.intevation.de/~bernhard +49 541 33 508 3-3 Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998 Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
The FSFE is an independent sister organisation with a separate leadership, and the framework agreement FSFE has with FSF does not give a single person a special influcence or one of the organisations a special power over the other. Regardless of whether he officially has power, he clearly unofficially has power. He's contacted me a few times over the years to insist on changes to the FAQ, usually over incredibly silly details like saying our pronunciation guidance was wrong because we advised people to pronounce GNU as two syllables, guh-NOO. When I spoke to someone within FSFE (name omitted for their privacy) about his 'help', I was told to just do what he wanted in order to make him go away. If the FSFE was independent of Stallman, no one would feel the need to appease him. ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Dear Robert, Am Dienstag 23 März 2021 06:59:44 schrieb Robert J. Hansen via Gnupg-users: > None of us have to tolerate toxic leadership. We can always leave. For > that reason, I'm stepping down as the FAQ maintainer. thanks for your contributions to GnuPG and its FAQ! (And I hope there will be more to come as you wrote you'll be staying on this list.) > I will also be ending my financial support of the FSF, FSFE, > and affiliated groups for so long as Richard Stallman has influence > in these organizations. Slightly off topic explanation as I am with the FSFE: The FSFE is an independent sister organisation with a separate leadership, and the framework agreement FSFE has with FSF does not give a single person a special influcence or one of the organisations a special power over the other. (You may still be critical of both organisations and their leaderships and the influence a person from FSF may have on what is associated with the names, this is not the right list to discuss it. But you should be aware about the structural independence.) Best Regards, Bernhard -- www.intevation.de/~bernhard +49 541 33 508 3-3 Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998 Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gnupg-users mailing list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
