Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # Goanetters-2004 meet in Goa. Dec 21, Tuesday. 12 noon to 2 pm. # # Clube Vasco, Near Municipal Garden, Panjim. Pass the word around! # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mervyn, I find it touching that you are concerned about the fate of American teenagers who have the cajones to volunteer and risk their lives on behalf of Iraqis and Afghans who were being brutalized by Muslim tyrants. I see that you had and have no sympathy for the 50 million Muslims that are being liberated and only contempt for their opportunity to live in freedom and democracy, which you enjoy for yourself. I am personally more concerned for the 1.2 billion Chinese who do not have an opportunity to live in freedom and democracy. Would you please ask Georgie to invade China and overthrow the repressive communists so that the 1.2 billion Chinese people can enjoy the fruits of demcoracy that we enjoy here? -Tariq __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # Goanetters-2004 meet in Goa. Dec 21, Tuesday. 12 noon to 2 pm. # # Clube Vasco, Near Municipal Garden, Panjim. Pass the word around! # ## Mervyn, I find it touching that you are concerned about the fate of American teenagers who have the cajones to volunteer and risk their lives on behalf of Iraqis and Afghans who were being brutalized by Muslim tyrants. I see that you had and have no sympathy for the 50 million Muslims that are being liberated and only contempt for their opportunity to live in freedom and democracy, which you enjoy for yourself. And your 31 cent contribution shows that you are a real philanthropist. You certainly have no vision, no sympathy for people who are in trouble, and no understanding of what is going on in Iraq, with your cheap observations from the safety of a country that would not be able to defend itself from anyone without the protection of those same American teenagers. For which you should be grateful. I used to read the Globe Mail until my information from other sources showed that it was full of blatant propaganda, not a respectable newspaper. You Canadians are paying for a socialistic health system because you pay nothing for your defense relying on the US. Yet, people are coming across the border in droves for medical treatment because they would die waiting for their medical procedures. You think you don't have to worry when a family member gets ill, but the Canadians who come to the US for treatment have testimonies that are just the opposite. I hope you don't find out how good your system is the hard way.
Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # Goanetters-2004 meet in Goa. Dec 21, Tuesday. 12 noon to 2 pm. # # Clube Vasco, Near Municipal Garden, Panjim. Pass the word around! # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the warning! Thanks for being concerned about us from the safety of Canada. I wish you were just as concerned about the fate of almost 25 million Iraqis, who have never experienced the freedom and democracy that you seem to take for granted. But don't you think the Goans in US are more capable of arriving at a rational decision of whether to stay or leave, than you mis-informed anti-Americans, who seem to so strongly oppose the effort to bring freedom and democracy to that embattled region? Mario, My real concern is centred on the fate of American teenagers that are being sent to Iraq. Last night, I stopped at a gas station in Terre Haute, Indiana. There was a flyer above the cash register begging for support for our teenagers in Iraq. Among the items needed were: cash, pens (not in boxes) Q-tips, etc. I am sure you are aware that anyone who drives a SUV is interested in cheap oil prices, so I dropped my 31 cents change into the collection box. That was the extent of my gratefulness to those who sent their teenage children to Iraq. Just to further your education in these matters, the reason the US gave up the draft is that a) they have sufficient volunteers to maintain the force levels they need, b) they have surplus forces currently protecting the Germans from drinking too much beer, and the S. Koreans from eating too much kimchi, which can be used if necessary, c) they found that it not efficient to draft and train people for short stints, and continue this endless cycle, when they have sufficient volunteers. So, according to the world of Mario Goveia: Germans drink too much beer. S. Koreans eat too much kimchi. The Globe and Mail is a left wing publication :-) The US is in Iraq to promote democracy. Yes, indeed, your vision is simple. Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mervyn, Thanks for the warning! Thanks for being concerned about us from the safety of Canada. I wish you were just as concerned about the fate of almost 25 million Iraqis, who have never experienced the freedom and democracy that you seem to take for granted. But don't you think the Goans in US are more capable of arriving at a rational decision of whether to stay or leave, than you mis-informed anti-Americans, who seem to so strongly oppose the effort to bring freedom and democracy to that embattled region? Just to further your education in these matters, the reason the US gave up the draft is that a) they have sufficient volunteers to maintain the force levels they need, b) they have surplus forces currently protecting the Germans from drinking too much beer, and the S. Koreans from eating too much kimchi, which can be used if necessary, c) they found that it not efficient to draft and train people for short stints, and continue this endless cycle, when they have sufficient volunteers. --- Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: Well, I hope you are correct and I also hope that the U.S.A., having gone into Iraq will not pull out when the going gets tough, like they did in Vietnam. What would your response be, if and when the U.S.A. and the American people decide enough is enough? Gabe, George Bush is not going to pull out of Iraq. I keep telling people on the other net groups I belong to, to make preparations to send their teenage children out of the US. The draft is coming. http://www.sss.gov/Default.htm Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
RE: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said Gabe and Tim, I think both of you need to catch up on the history of WW-II and see what it takes to liberate entire regions, . . . === I would just like to leave this discussion with two quotes which summarizes my feelings very adequately: What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? --Mohandas K. Gandhi (About the British occupation of India) If we have the self-respect, the patriotism, the tenacious purpose, and the power of organisation that are necessary to drive the British out from their entrenched position, no lesser foreign power will dare after that, undertake the futile task of conquering or enslaving us. --Mohandas K. Gandhi Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
[Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: RE: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost! Gabe and Tim, I think both of you need to catch up on the history of WW-II and see what it takes to liberate entire regions, and how many major losses were suffered by the Allies in the early YEARS (not just a few months) of that war. Read about how many YEARS it took to pacify and democratize and rebuild Germany and Japan. Read about which country's taxpayers and armed forces have provided these countries with national security to this day. RESPONSE: Well, I hope you are correct and I also hope that the U.S.A., having gone into Iraq will not pull out when the going gets tough, like they did in Vietnam. What would your response be, if and when the U.S.A. and the American people decide enough is enough? Cheers, Gabe.
RE: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Gabe and Tim, I think both of you need to catch up on the history of WW-II and see what it takes to liberate entire regions, and how many major losses were suffered by the Allies in the early YEARS (not just a few months) of that war. Read about how many YEARS it took to pacify and democratize and rebuild Germany and Japan. Read about which country's taxpayers and armed forces have provided these countries with national security to this day. I hope you both don't think that Iraq would have been better off under Saddam's brutal heel. If you do, I know some Iraqi Shia and Kurds, who escaped his brutality but lost family members, who would like to talk to you face-to-face. Gabe, Since you live in a country where much of the population opposed the liberation of Iraq (I'm not sure why) but the government decided to join the coalition anyway, I understand that you must get some perverse satisfaction when things seem to be not going well for the liberating forces. You then send us articles from the most virulent left-wing and anti-American publication in the UK as if this lends some credibility to whatever point you are trying to make. It does not. All it does is give us another example of the Guardian's biased position. If the Guardian's opinion had prevailed, Saddam Hussein would still be brutalizing his people, filling his mass graves, planning to re-constitute his dormant WMD programs which could have ended up in the dangerous hands of Al Qaeda with disastrous results for whomever they decided to use these against, and he with France, Russia and China, would still be looting the oil-for-food program, building palaces and protectibg Saddam with their vetoes in the UNSC. Unlike conventional warfare of a previous age, where the first attack was usually against a military target, attacks with WMDs would wipe out large sections of the civilian population. At Halabja, Saddam's forces wiped out some 5,000 innocent Kurds in a single day. With the suicide mentality we saw on 9/11, no national leader can risk even the possibility of such a first attack, as long as Al Qaeda is a viable threat. This is what drives much of geopolitics today. And while Iraq was not involved in 9/11, the subsequent investigation showed regular and close links between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Critics claim otherwise without explaining how Al Qaeda cells can be active around the world, but only not in Iraq, a country that harbored terrorists like Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Ansar al Islam, etc. and compensated the families of suicide bombers in Israel. Tim The Globe and Mail has probably failed to inform you that Sen. Biden is an opponent of the Bush administration, is very bitter that his friend, John Kerry, was soundly defeated last month, and vacillates between opposing the war to demanding more resources for the troops. Unfortunately for him, since tha Vietnam debacle the US does not allow politicians to conduct wartime operations. The comments of Sec. Rumsfeld were an honest assessment, which has been pounced upon by only those who opposed the war in the first place. The others are too busy assisting in correcting whatever problems exist. The soldier's complaint was a valid one, and production of armored Humvees has gone from 15 a month to 500, so he will soon get what he needs. With perfect 20/20 hindsight one can always claim that things should have been done differently. That's the advantage of being an armchair critic. Many of these problems have been caused by the unexpected ferocity of the Sunni Baathist's resistance to their impending loss of power to the Shia and the Kurds, over whom they enjoyed decades of brutal domination from a minority position. More was also expected from the Shia and Kurds in terms of assisting the coalition. They have so far left much of the heavy lifting to the coalition, but are slowly but surely getting trained to defend themselves and beginning to see that they need to be more aggressive if they want their budding democracy to succeed. The Globe and Mail has also probably NOT told you that 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces have little or no conflict and major reconstruction projects in roads, schools, electric grids, water treatment plants, hospitals, etc. is going on at a fast pace. Think about it. Regardless of all the details that we can argue about till the cows come home, regardless of whether you like President Bush or not, regardless of what you think happened to the WMDs that have never been accounted for, this war is about bringing freedom and democracy to a Muslim nation of 25 million people that was brutalized by
Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Also the troops in Kuwait awaiting to be sent to the front lines in Iraq gave Sec. Rumsfeld a grilling today. Asked about the poorly armoured Humvees, his response was: As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want, Rumsfeld said. He added, You can have all the armor in the world on a tank, and it can [still] be blown up. Encouraging words? I think not! This reminded me of the following fw: Madonna said today that we should pull all of our troops out of Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld said, 'No, I think we better wait and hear what Britney Spears has to say about it first.' -Jay Leno
RE: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] The following is for the benefit of our USA Republican friends; Goans working in Iraq beware you have been warned!! http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1368899,00.html Iraq faces descent into chaos, says CIA chief Add to this Sen. J. Biden's assessment after his return from Iraq a few days back - - - - that contrary to what the govt. keeps saying, the US is LOSING the war in Iraq. Also the troops in Kuwait awaiting to be sent to the front lines in Iraq gave Sec. Rumsfeld a grilling today. Asked about the poorly armoured Humvees, his response was: As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want, Rumsfeld said. He added, You can have all the armor in the world on a tank, and it can [still] be blown up. Encouraging words? I think not! Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Gabe, A good try with the Guardian article and I would also strongly recommend recent articles, on Iraq, by Blumenthal in the same high quality internationally recognised paper. Unfortunately, I think our USA Goan Republicans, based there, are wholly vaccinated to become totally immune to anything but neocon opinion. Cornel - Original Message - From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:32 AM Subject: [Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost! The following is for the benefit of our USA Republican friends; Goans working in Iraq beware you have been warned!!
[Goanet]Chickens coming home to roost!
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## The following is for the benefit of our USA Republican friends; Goans working in Iraq beware you have been warned!! http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1368899,00.html Iraq faces descent into chaos, says CIA chief Report leaked as 1,000th US soldier dies in action Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington Wednesday December 8, 2004 The Guardian The Bush administration's robust assertions that the situation in Iraq would improve with next month's elections were badly shaken yesterday with the leak of a gloomy end-of-tour cable from the departing CIA station chief in Baghdad. The bleak assessment, reported in yesterday's New York Times, warned that Iraq would descend even deeper into violent chaos unless the government was able to assert its authority and deliver concrete economic improvements. It arrived on a day when US forces recorded the death of the 1,000th soldier to be killed in combat since the beginning of the war. In all, 1,275 US service personnel have died since the invasion on March 20 last year. This figure includes accidents, suicides and other deaths not classed as killed in action. A total of 9,765 US troops have been wounded. No official totals of Iraqi deaths are available. Estimates range from 14,000 to tens of thousands of civilians and around 5,000 troops. The classified assessment was sent to CIA headquarters in Virginia late last month as the officer ended a year-long tour in Iraq. It was bolstered by a similar assessment from a second CIA officer, Michael Kostiw, who serves as a senior adviser to the agency chief, Porter Goss. The outlook offered by the station chief echoes several similar warnings from officials in Washington and Baghdad. An intelligence estimate prepared for the White House last August said that Iraq's security situation could remain tenuous at best until the end of 2005, and warned the country was at risk of civil war. But the latest warning is particularly ill-timed for the White House, which has been focused on assuring Americans that the situation in Iraq would improve with the coming elections. It is also a personal embarrassment for Mr Goss, a former Republican congressman who had made it his mission to stem the flow of embarrassing leaks from the agency. In a memo last month, Mr Goss wrote that the agency had a dual task - to provide intelligence, and to support administration policies. As agency employees we do not identify with, support or champion opposition to the administration or its policies, the memo said. As station chief, the unnamed CIA official supervised more than 300 operatives, the largest intelligence operation since the Vietnam war, and their assessment carries authority. While the senior US military commander in Iraq, General George Casey Jr, initially raised no objections to the CIA assessment, the New York Times reported that the US ambassador, John Negroponte, had filed a lengthy message of dissent in which he argued that the US had made considerable progress in controlling the insurgency. Mr Bush did not directly comment on the CIA report yesterday, but in a speech to US marines in Camp Pendle ton, California, he described the war in Iraq as part of the global struggle against terrorism and warned: As election day approaches, we can expect further violence from the terrorists. You see, the terrorists understand what is at stake. They know they have no future in a free Iraq, because free people will never choose their own enslavement. They know democracy will give Iraqis a stake in the future of their country. Throughout the speech, Mr Bush referred to the insurgents, who are largely Iraqis opposed to the US occupation, as terrorists. In conversations with reporters about the assessment yesterday, agency officials admitted that efforts to train local Iraqi security forces were not keeping pace with the growth of an increasingly violent insurgency. So far, the official strength of the Iraqi security forces is put at 83,000 although only 47,000 have been fully armed and trained. The new Iraqi government could also expect a new wave of violence if the elections are boycotted by the Sunni minority.
