Re: [Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
Gilbert, I have no idea what academic model you are referring to. Seems to me your continuing demand for statistical information is the academic approach. I have no interest in knowing what proportion of Goans belong to the various varnas, etc. which is giving the problem far too much respect in my opinion. All I want is for Catholic Goans to stop discriminating against other Catholic Goans on the basis of congenital factors, which includes caste, and simultaneously expand this to all others as well. Two of my three ABCD kids have married Caucasians and the third is likely to do the same, so I don't have a personal dog in this fight. However, we still get inquiries from Goans within and outside the US asking about someone or other's caste. That, plus the actual experiences within my extended family and close friends are my only clue that the attitude still survives. Yes, my only experience of the Goan caste system has been during the matchmaking-for-marriage process. You are correct in saying that growing numbers of our next generation are marrying outside the community, not just in the diaspora but in India as well. This applies to non-Goans as well, the result of education westernization and modernization. However, if you are familiar with the huge Goan picnics taking place across North America over entire weekends, attended by thousands, many of the attendees are trying to find matches within the community for their kids. Whether caste plays any role here, I have no way of knowing. As in the community at large, it probably does among some people. I have no learned approaches to the problem other than to expose it and confront it when it rears it's ugly head, as I have done since I was a kid myself, and provide moral and actual support to anyone who is facing the problem within their own families. Good luck in your efforts. Mario. --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cornel and Mario, You guys and others can continue to stick to the academic model which you have built about Goans and continue to expand on the discrimination in our society. But I would agree with Cornel that, Goans (including me) can certainly improve on our intermingling skills beyond our small circle of same-old-friends.
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
Hi Cornel and Mario, You guys and others can continue to stick to the academic model which you have built about Goans and continue to expand on the discrimination in our society. But I would agree with Cornel that, Goans (including me) can certainly improve on our intermingling skills beyond our small circle of same-old-friends. In fact we need it badly - between caste and within the caste strata. Outside my own immediate family, I can count on one hand the number of Goan boys and girls in the USA who are BORN IN THE DIASPORAS and who are married to other Goans. Mario can perhaps share with us his experience. This massive 'out-marriage' is something we have never seen in prior Goan diasporas. This is what Goan academics, sociologists, futurists and writers should talk and write about, rather than the outdated past. I would like to hear what is going on in other diasporas to their first generation. Are our kids looking at the parents and saying, No way am I going to marry another Goan irrespective of caste? Or are the parents reluctant to introduce their kids to other Goans for what ever preconceived notions? I hope I have not touched a raw nerve. To those wondering, yes my kid, nephews and nieces are married ... to Goans. Now my solution to fight discrimination in Goan society is to use what has worked well (not perfectly) in US society. In my New York state and Mario's Ohio, there are Poles, Irish, Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Dutch, Slavs, Lebanese etc etc. These groups at one time (30-50 years ago) looked down on each other and historically were hostile to each other. In the USA, each of these groups had their own Catholic seminaries to meet the social needs- that is a whole different discussion. They had derogatory words like WASP, WAP, Pollack etc etc. and Catholics had a 'bad' name (papist). Remember Kennedy running for President? The greatest animosity was among those in the lower educational and social-economic strata of the different groups. My experience in London in the 1970s was the same, and this may be universal. Today the animosity is not there. These ethnic groups have not eliminated their identity. They maintained their cultural heritage. They have shared it with and educated others. In the process have enriched themselves and others with that approach. This is reflected in their cuisine, writings, social contacts (Italian feast, October feast, St. Paddy's Day etc etc). At these events, all comers belong to the host community. Now they even inter-marry. I would like to see the same be done across Goan society as we move forward. To begin with, I wish someone could even tell us what proportion of Goan society belong to the various Varnas. As a sociologist would you not want to see these basic statistics, Cornel? Each of these Varnas have their history and their festivals. Those who laugh about this are actually displaying their ignorance and conceit. Lift the poor, uneducated, the 'lower caste' (what ever that means) up - not by accusing others (including the Goa Bishop) of sins they have not committed unless you can clearly show it. There is no guilt by association or extension which is what you are doing. Sing the praises and the worthy contributions of the poor like Mother Teresa did. All of us in society have contributed. Including in America and UK the coal miners, steel workers, textile workers. In fact I don't even know which are the lower caste occupations in Goa. Do you? Is it the toddy-taper, the feni- brewer, the fisher-folks. That should not be too difficult to have and attend their festival or build a school for them. It will help their business. :=)) And that will be more productive that writting an academic paper for perhaps the casteists.:=)) In the Diasporas, the WGDs are all inclusive. So Diaspora Goans today cannot complain that they are 'kept out' becasue of caste. It is true that this is once a year. For more frequent events, the Diaspora Goan who thinks there is a caste problem can have a social function and invite all, instead of complaining or talking about the problem. For amchem bagarachem Goem, are our 'problem-solving journalists' reading this so that they can provide the publicity to the across-the-caste festivities and the solutions?:=)) Regards, GL
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GL: Let's not argue the obvious. WE ALL OPPOSE the practice of apartheid caste system. (Should I repeat the prior statement ten times) Mario replies: Yes, you need to repeat this more than ten times, because, while you claim to be against the caste system, we had to drag this admission out of you, and you continue to make all kinds of excuses for the system. Gilbert writes: GL: First that was what Mario posted when I asked him for Fr. Jerome's quote. Not to your question. That is precisely my point - Absolutely nothing wrong. So why are they quoting him? To discredit him? Misrepresent the priest? or do they not just understand what Fr. Jerome is saying? Again which escol did they go, which taught them 'the art of DISTORTIONS'. 2. Is there Caste in Christianity? AND Would a person practicing the caste system be a Christian ? GL: There is no caste-system in the teaching of Christianity. In Goa and in my diocese of Syracuse I do not see caste practices. Mario replies: The above is an example of how Gilbert tries to obfuscate the caste issue and DISTORT the discussion. First of all he has not read the article in America magazine, which was about India, not Syracuse. Second of all he deliberately misconstrues and misrepresents the quote from the article where a Fr. Jerome D'Souza said in the late 40s that there was no caste in Christianity, taking it completely out of context. The deliberate misrepresentation comes from Gilbert's claim that Fr. Jerome was right. However, Gilbert knows that Fr. Jerome was not talking about Christianity in general, he was talking about Christianity in India. He was in a meeting of India's Constituent Assembly, where they were discussing what to put in the Indian Constitution. Fr. Jerome was invited to represent Christians. The topic under discussion was whether to include outcaste Catholics in the list of Scheduled Castes and tribes, which were given special protections in the Indian constitution. In the context in which he said it, Fr. Jerome was absolutely wrong. How could any Goan priest say in the late 40's that there was no caste in Christianity in India?
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
JC. I have responded to you below to each of your comments. So you will see my thoughts in the final section, where your post appears. GL Mario Goveia wrote: Here is an excerpt from the article: When India's founding Constituent Assembly debated making concessions for Outcaste-Christians, Jerome D'Souza, S.J., representing the Christians, rejected them, claiming there is no caste in Christianity. He sounds just like you, Gilbert. Clearly in the late 40's Jerome D'Souza must have known that the caste system was rampant among Goans. Obviously he had his eyes and ears closed. == Gilbert Lawrence responds: What you have put in quotes from its very English cannot be the words of Jerome D'Souza but rather your's or someone else's interpretation of Jerome's thoughts. It does not even tell us the context of the statement. Clearly the Indian constitution was not being written for 2% of the population. Having said that, I fully support the statement there is no caste in Christianity. Do you disagree with that statement? What are your colors including confused? :=)) Do you want to have your cake and eat it too? Do you love to argue? Please be honest? Response from JC: In their opposition to the practice of that Apartheid Caste System, I support Cornell and Mario. GL: Let's not argue the obvious. WE ALL OPPOSE the practice of apartheid caste system. (Should I repeat the prior statement ten times) So there are no martyrs for this cause. Those who claim that mantel by falsely accusing others (and now including the Bishop of Goa) are the true casteists (or nuts) in some angelic clothes. This is obvious from Mario's post where he is now very very angry with the Goa Catholic bishop and church of Goa for some imaginary or yet to be known reason/ link to caste. In the above points, I support the points raised by you. GL: Now why is it I make sense to you and many others but not to these 'aum zano Goenkars'? To which escol did these two or three guys go to?:=)) Oh Yes, I did not mention the phantom nuns and priests. :=)) I do NOT support the individual who wants to have his cake and eat it too. Even if the Icing on the cakewalla's cake is full of Confusion. GL: You have made the right diagnosis of Confusion and Ignorance. Now can you prescribe some treatment. Yes, I know they are adults. :=)) Let us (for the sake of this discussion) assume that those were indeed Fr. Jerome's words. 1. Did he say anything wrong ? GL: First that was what Mario posted when I asked him for Fr. Jerome's quote. Not to your question. That is precisely my point - Absolutely nothing wrong. So why are they quoting him? To discredit him? Misrepresent the priest? or do they not just understand what Fr. Jerome is saying? Again which escol did they go, which taught them 'the art of DISTORTIONS'. 2. Is there Caste in Christianity? AND Would a person practicing the caste system be a Christian ? GL: There is no caste-system in the teaching of Christianity. In Goa and in my diocese of Syracuse I do not see caste practices. I have asked you and others for documentation of a systematic /structural discrimination. A person practicing discrimination would not be a Christian. Period end of story! 3. IF special concessions were made to a special subset of Christians (or Hindus) based on the Caste System, would that be fighting or enhancing the Caste System? GL: That would be Affirmative Action - Indian style! I support Affirmative action in the USA. Do you and others have a solution to correct past injustices? I hope we have noted that the vast majority of Goans (in the late 40s and 50s and before that) were NOT even considered in the scenario of the Indian Constitution. They were after all, Portuguese Citizens.that figure of 2% might merit from revision. GL: The figure of 2% is the proportion of Christians in India at the time the Indian constitution was written. Regards, GL
[Goanet]Re: Goans, Gouveia, Gilbert and Caste
Mario Goveia wrote: Here is an excerpt from the article: When India's founding Constituent Assembly debated making concessions for Outcaste-Christians, Jerome D'Souza, S.J., representing the Christians, rejected them, claiming there is no caste in Christianity. He sounds just like you, Gilbert. Clearly in the late 40's Jerome D'Souza must have known that the caste system was rampant among Goans. Obviously he had his eyes and ears closed. == Gilbert Lawrence responds: What you have put in quotes from its very English cannot be the words of Jerome D'Souza but rather your's or someone else's interpretation of Jeome's thoughts. It does not even tell us the context of the statement. Clearly the Indian constitution was not being written for 2% of the population. Having said that, I fully support the statement there is no caste in Christianity. Do you disagree with that statement? What are your colors including confused? :=)) Do you want to have your cake and eat it too? Do you love to argue? Please be honest? Response from JC Mogal Glibert Lawrencebab, In their opposition to the practice of that Apartheid Caste System, I support Cornell and Mario. In the above points, I support the points raised by you. I do NOT support the individual who wants to have his cake and eat it too. Even if the Icing on the cakewalla's cake is full of Confusion. Let us (for the sake of this discussion) assume that those were indeed Fr. Jerome's words. 1. Did he say anything wrong ? 2. Is there Caste in Christianity? AND Would a person practising the caste system be a Christian ? 3. IF special concessions were made to a special subset of Christians (or Hindus) based on the Caste System, would that be fighting or enhancing the Caste System? I hope we have noted that the vast majority of Goans (in the late 40s and 50s and before that) were NOT even considered in the scenario of the Indian Constitution. They were after all, Portuguese Citizens.that figure of 2% might merit from revision. jc _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
