Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
Something just occurred to me on the subject of casteism in matrimonial advertisements. I can't quite articulate it now but I'll give it a try: If a Goan were to marry another Goan, there may (depending on the family) be some pretentiousness regarding caste. If these SAME Goans families were presented with a fiancé/fiancée of Catholic European descent, would they be just as rigid in questioning the pedigree of this white person's lineage? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On 7/4/05, Frederick Noronha (FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the question of whether one can be a Brahmin and an anti-casteist at the same time, perhaps the question would be better framed if it had asked whether one can subscribe to Brahminism and believe in anti-casteism at the same time.
[Goanet]Caste... and all that
It's easy to say forget about caste, don't get obsessed with the issue and the like... as long as we are not ourselves victims of casteism. Or, if we want to pretend that this issue doesn't exist. It does! It's more honest to acknowledge it. As my friend and journalist P Sainath told me once, as we crossed the ferry from Chopdem (Pernem) to Siolim, If you were born in a Dalit family, you would have known the meaning of caste... and your place in the world... by the age of two. Sainath, incidentally, is the grandson of the late V V Giri, the one-time vice-president of India. A great journo, who has spent years looking at the 'other' India. Likewise, it's a bunkum to argue that Catholicism doesn't recognise casteism, ergo caste doesn't exist in Catholicism. Caste may have no sanction at the ritual level; but does that mean it doesn't exist (and have widespread acceptance) at the social level among the Catholic community in Goa (and elsewhere in India, including Kerala, etc)? On the question of whether one can be a Brahmin and an anti-casteist at the same time, perhaps the question would be better framed if it had asked whether one can subscribe to Brahminism and believe in anti-casteism at the same time. (You can fall into one category by accidents of birth, and into the other by subscribing to a value system which, perhaps not wrongly, has come to be seen as keystone to upholding the inequities of the caste system.) Just a few thoughts that struck me while reading some recent posts.FN -- Frederick Noronha (FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Independent Journalist
Re: [Goanet]Caste and all the cacophany: some thoughts
Basilio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Caste and all the cacophony: some thoughts My contribution to the battle against the caste: facilitate personal transformation. I only sow the seed; it is for the Lord to reap the fruits. I fully expect to be pilloried for what I have written. So be it. I may post some further thoughts if I think I have, at some point, something useful to say. Mario replies: This response is not to pillory you but to lament the fact that such a luke-warm and sanguine attitude from one in a position of moral influence as yourself is one reason that the abomination known as the caste system has survived for so long among Catholics in complete contradiction of everything our religion is supposed to stand for. Personal transformation may fit your comfort zone and convenience, but it is hardly sufficient when confronting such a blight on our community. I also think it is unfair to pass the buck to the Lord when he has put us here presumably to make a difference. I lament the fact that you have not chosen to take a more forceful and pro-active approach. Surely you have seen the victims and family ruins all around you, and I submit that those who perpetrate such an atrocity in this day and age are unlikely to make themselves available to you for your personal transformation. *** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** Greet your loved ones in Goa with flowers! http://www.goa-world.com/goa/expressions/ EXPRESSIONS - The Flower Shop. World famous all over Goa! ***
[Goanet]Caste and all the cacophany: some thoughts
Caste and all the cacophony: some thoughts Public discussions on caste, understandably, are disconcerting to the writers as well as to the readers. A dispassionate discussion on this topic seems to be an oxymoron. One can have a robust and rigorous discussion on provocative topics without getting rambunctious, vociferous and virulent. By shouting down the other, who may have a different viewpoint, does not add to a productive conversation. Teotonio¹s point in asking to ³identify themselves² is a very useful, if not necessary, element of any thoughtful conversation (and research as well). Self-identification, which may be relevant to the topic, helps to maintain an intellectual integrity through the process of the discussion/research. (For example, when a research is presented we all like to know who funded the research, because it provides one more dimension in the process of the assessment of its validity and reliability). Activists play a significant role in addressing social problems. But they are not necessarily objective in making an assessment of the situation; well-intended actions end up with deleterious consequences. Poor diagnosis of the caste situation, lead to bad prescription. The question of caste is a challenging one. Usually discussions of caste entangle two parallel issues. 1- Caste as a social structure 2- caste as a tool of social discrimination. Of course, many, if not all, social structures have built-in discriminations. Caste as a social structure is a socio-anthropological, politico-economic reality; Caste as a tool of discrimination is moral reality. Different social structures in themselves are not a problem; but when these social structures become tools of discrimination, domination and exploitation, then it is problematic. We socialize ourselves in social structures our eating habits, our language, semantics, particular expressions, etc. Socializing in a particular social structure, in itself, is not evil; if the socialization in a particular social structure is exclusionary, and establishes superiority-inferiority tensions, then it is problematic. Denying once caste is not the solution of the problem; but how one ³uses² ones caste is the question. Individual/personal/group heritage and identity, at a much deeper level are tied to the social structures in which we socialize ourselves. Caste is an unfortunate such an structure, which is part, like it not, of Indian/goan heritage. Goan Catholics before they are Catholics they are citizens/inheritors of the heritage of India/Goa. This is an accident of birth. The question is how does one integrate faith and life, and live in such a way that a Catholic, following the Gospel, does not engage in discriminatory practices. For a Catholic to abnegate caste is wonderful. However, this abnegation does not negate the mores of the Catholic individual, which are product of the socialization. Unfortunately, some of this abnegation smack of self-righteousness. Sometimes we tend to be more pious than God. One may abnegate caste, but the streaks in their social behavior/social communication, shaped by the social structures, are not easily erased; they betray us sometimes, and unexpectedly. Is the Catholic Church in Goa ³casteists?² This accusation is grounded in history. Is the Catholic Church of Goa TODAY ³casteist?² There are some who would like to say Of course! What one does mean when the accusation is thrown around the church is casteist? It is fair to decipher that behind this accusation the finger is pointed to the Church hierarchy, and that it operates discriminatorily based on caste. To study empirically and quantifiably, if the Church of Goa is operating discriminatorily, then one has to count heads and these heads be identified by their castes. Ergo, the principle behind Teotonio¹s suggestion, that the participants in these discussions ³identify themselves² becomes very valid. Is the hierarchy of the Church of Goa operating discriminatorily, based on the caste? This writer states NO. There is no empirical evidence to bear this out. Of course, there are those, who would jump up and down and swear that there is caste-based discrimination. I have met them and have engaged them in a rational conversation. We cannot hide behind the anecdotes. Anecdotes can be found even on the trees; but they do not prove the thesis of systematic, rampant caste-based discrimination. Are there individuals, who may use their position, and engage in ³casteism?² Definitely. Some folks tend to overestimate the power of the Bishops. They think that by some kind of ³fiat² the Bishops can make things go away. By the way, I am not a shill for the hierarchy of the Church of Goa. Just trying to be fair. The conversation of caste is usually coded to signify that the ³upper castes² are the culprits. They are, and they may be, or may have been. However, we should not loose sight that there are visceral discriminatory practices at the ³lower level
[Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## oct. 14 fn: permit me to begin with a thesis that could promote discussion ( on caste system ) oct. 31 fn: but do you really think it is worth digging up these skeletons from the past ? unfortunately casteism as practised by goan catholics cannot that easily be separated from yes, 'brahmanized' catholic church of goa. antonio _ The all-new MSN Mesenger! Get the coolest emoticons. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/messengerchat/ Share more of yourself!
Re: [Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- In other words, what does the average Hindu think of a Goan Catholic trying to call himself a Brahmin? I wonder if Cornel has done research to the casta among Da mão people? B. Colaço ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Neal Pinto wrote: My question was an inquiry on the popular opinion of Hindus regarding the employment of the caste system by Catholics in Goa. In other words, what does the average Hindu think of a Goan Catholic trying to call himself a Brahmin? Neal, Interesting question. I think nobody answered it because it's a difficult question to answer. Fools rush in where... and so I'm going to try. This answer is based on episodic information, which may or may not be a reflection of the wider reality. First, with the episodic narration: * Two days back, we were sitting in Cafe Prakash, when a Hindu friend from Ponda remarked that Catholics, particularly Brahmins, seem to have a far greater attachment and pride in caste attachments then their Hindu counterparts. I am in no position to vouch for the veracity of this statement. One would need to understand how it works in both communities, and then one's own filters and biases would also play a role in evaluating the reality. * Some five years back maybe, I was talking to a journalistic colleague, actually a very perceptive and politically-savvy editor. When the issue of names, conversions and the like came up, the editor and his family was more than surprised to note that conversions in Goa (like in Kerala, but unlike most of the rest of India) had taken place from even among the so-called upper castes. In other parts of India, Christian conversions are seen as a lower-caste phenomenon. Which is why, I believe, the Hindutva fundamentalist elements in places like Gujarat and Orissa can treat converts almost with contempt, and their you-cant-convert-without-the-state's -permission logic. * One trend of analysis views the United Goans Party (quite unlike as the average Catholic would read it) as an alliance of sorts between the upper caste Hindu and the Catholic. A similar interpretation is sometimes given to the pro-Konkani campaign. See, for example, Ashok Row Kavi's writings in The Week around 1987. * I think there's some a lot of these-guys-are-quite-like-us kind of solidarity within similar castes across the religious divide. It would be interesting to study how caste plays up with or against religion. * In Cuncolim, during the (caste-based) conflict there, there was an element of 'solidarity' between the Chardos-Kshatriyas. If one recalls rightly, there were some statements of support from one to the other. At the sub-altern level too, people tend to build bridges across caste. But the issue is rather complex and perhaps in need of more academic research. FN
[Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## 'this was another reason for introducing inquisition in goa to keep the native catholic in line ' no, gilbert, no the inquisition tribunal was introduced to fight heresy i.e. beliefs which were contrary to the doctrines of the catholic church e.g. the equality of all human beings before god ( please ask slaves of the roman empire ) and hence any person who believed otherwise ( like bahmons and chardos of goa ) were prime candidates destined to be consigned to the burning stakes. in addition to belief in inequality, bahmons and chardos were also accessories to the unchristian idea of the reincarnation doctrine, the basis upon which the caste system was formed. that the church in goa allowed this state of things to merrily continue, speaks volumes of the omnicience of the vatican. looks like purity of the catholic doctrine was sacrificed at the altar of expediency to keep the numbers behing THE GOOD LORD. bahmons and chardos, whether ecclesiastics or confrari wallahs, together with their family members : look at the sheer multitude of candidates. believe me, dear gilbert, there would not have been any mango, jackfuit, peru, chicko etc. trees left from siolim/tivim in the north to cuncolim/velim in the south for all would have been used as material for burning stakes. antonio the terrorist _ Yantras for power and success. Yantras for peace and joy. http://www.astroyogi.com/NewMsn/astroshopping/yantra/ Yantras that change your life.
Re: [Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Neal, What a good question on popular opinion from you. I had never thought of one like it even though I was aware of Hindu caste residues among the Sikhs and Muslims. I do hope a reply to your question will be forthcoming on Goanet. I'd like to know the answer myself. Cheers, Cornel
Re: [Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Antonio, Thank you for your response. I already understand the theoretic and theological reasons why the Hindu caste system is not compatible with Christianity. My question was an inquiry on the popular opinion of Hindus regarding the employment of the caste system by Catholics in Goa. In other words, what does the average Hindu think of a Goan Catholic trying to call himself a Brahmin? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:00:05 +0530, A.C. Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in this modern tv medium age, one cannot indulge in extensive writting for fear of being ignored and if one tries to be concise one is liable to be misunderstood. as for me, i would rather prefer to be misunderstood than to be ignored. thank you, neal, you have raised an important point. how do our hindu brothers look at catholic casteism. from the dharmic (i.e.hindu) point of view, to be born in a certain caste ( varna) is the result of one previous life i.e. karmic justice. one follows the strict rules of dharma and one is liberated from the chain of births and rebirths i.e.reincarnation. if there are a few flaws in one !s previous life, one is certain to be born a brahmin to be ultimately liberated (moksha). on the other extreme, persistent flouting of the rules of dharma in previous life , results in the birth as an outcaste, pariah, and what have you. in catholic goa, there cannot be brahmins and kshatriyas in the strict sense of the dharma, for in the catholic religion there is simply no room for the reincarnation principle. antonio
[Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## vernon : how to find one!s caste? if your elders cannot ( or will not ) answer your question, then ,i am afraid, you should be proud that you do not belong to the so called uppercastes. i think, you belong to ! er ! caste meaning other than those two. er in konkani means others, and if it is of any satisfaction to you, you should be lucky because er for your descendants means elizabeth regina class, the rulers of the future, with the two upper castes marching into marginalized or ghetoised classes, not unlike jews ( god!s people, aren!t they ? ) i take this opportunity to delve into some mundane aspects of the caste system of catholic goa especially during the 1940s and 50s when the catholic caste was at ita apogee. i also feel that i owe it to my brothers and sisters of all classes who were born and bred away from goa and have no first hand knowledge of what transpired in goa during the iberian rule. the hereditary caste system (as opposed to the meritorious class system ) is an unique social system that is found in the indian sub continent only. people were generally classified into three twice born castes: brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas - traders, and vaisyas - farmers. others (er) who are in absolute majority were called sudras including the most intellectual of them all -artizans. suffice it to say that artizans were the percursors of modern technology and science that brough so much glory to europe and north america as against the chaotic indian subcontinent. when the portuguese missionaries came into contact with the hindu population , the real or shudh brahmins ran away with their idols leaving valuable land and equally precious paddyfields behind. brahmins in those days were like living gods and one simply cannot understand why in the world they would accept a totally strange religion. as for kshatriyas , there was only one hindu ruling family and that too in the distant past, namely kadambas of chandor goa.they obviously could not have so many oftheir descendants to the catholic church of goa. so there you have,vernon, devout catholics dividing themselved into three sections : bahmon, chardo and er. the !beauty ! of the caste system is that class is automatically attached to the caste, which is not the case from lthe scientific point of view. agreed that bahmons had a high percentage of individuals with class ( i.e. culture, education , family wealth etc ) but also there were bahmons without class called kashti bahmon. and so was the situation within the chardo class and more of them were of low class generally known as podehr chardo. at this stage i dont think that the bahmon and the chardo have any new adjectives left for the er class. they used them all during the four and half centuries of colonial rule. the er class individual left holy goa for bombay to earn his llivelihood and with the part of his savings he tried to educate his children. i do not know much about the fate of er children in the english medium schools in goa but i do know much about the fate of the er children who were lucky enough to gain entry in the lyceum ( portuguese secondary schools) and the seminary. they were subjected to insults, humiliations, ridicule and taunts by bahmon and chardo children with the connivance of the teachers of their communities. yes, there were padris teaching in the lyceum too. a bahmon padri who was full of christian love ( as long as one remained within his station ) became someone else when he dealt with the er children ( hem tuca nuim) . an average chardo padri whose intellectual level descended well below the knees : ( tumim quiteac eiliai re inga, kamanc vos) may be some of readers will come up with some other !pleasant! encounters with our wonderful society. antonio _ Screensavers unlimited! Funny, serious, religious. http://www.msn.co.in/Cinema/screensaver/ Take your pick!
[Goanet]Caste.....and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Re the above topic I would like to raise a few pertinent questions:Was this practice followed only for social posturing and/or parading superiority/inferiority complexes? How did they behave towards their fellowmen? Did these so-called upper castes make use of it to oppress the others? Did they use the caste tag to grab positions of power? Did they rob, cheat, harass, intimidate, victimize, prosecute falsely or even assault the underprivileged, the illiterate and the simple folks? How come the Bamonns and the Charddos owned such a lot of land? Some people know very well varo/varem marta te vatten sup dorpak. Waiting eagerly for answers. R.Cabral
[Goanet]caste and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## in this modern tv medium age, one cannot indulge in extensive writting for fear of being ignored and if one tries to be concise one is liable to be misunderstood. as for me, i would rather prefer to be misunderstood than to be ignored. thank you, neal, you have raised an important point. how do our hindu brothers look at catholic casteism. from the dharmic (i.e.hindu) point of view, to be born in a certain caste ( varna) is the result of one previous life i.e. karmic justice. one follows the strict rules of dharma and one is liberated from the chain of births and rebirths i.e.reincarnation. if there are a few flaws in one !s previous life, one is certain to be born a brahmin to be ultimately liberated (moksha). on the other extreme, persistent flouting of the rules of dharma in previous life , results in the birth as an outcaste, pariah, and what have you. in catholic goa, there cannot be brahmins and kshatriyas in the strict sense of the dharma, for in the catholic religion there is simply no room for the reincarnation principle. antonio _ Mergers, takeovers, buyouts. Get all the latest biz bytes. http://www.msn.co.in/business/ Tune in to MSN Business!
[Goanet]caste........and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## from antonio dr. jose colaco wrote: i have NO CLUE why antonio wants the present archbishop of goa to answer why catholicism allowed the caste system to continue. is it this archbishop who allower it ? there is a strong belief among !others! that, had the patriarch/archbishop office ( which has been exercing authority for the last 490 years) dealt firmly with the satanic arrogance of the bamon padri,perhaps casteism would not have so prevalent among the catholics of goa. from 16th century to the end of the second world war, only boys coming from the bamon families were allowed to become priests ( the chhaddi boy most probably entered the portals of the seminary sometime during the 19th century ). is this not religious sanction of the caste system ? secondly,confrarias, the religious associations, based on caste system were actively encouraged in each and every church in goa. the present archbishop is a thorough gentleman, but his office has, definitely, a lot of explaining to do. comment on basilio: do i get it,that the goa church had no authority to tell the confrari-wallahs that they should all wear uniform of on colour only when they paraded themselves like holy peacocks outside the church on the village feast day ? your verbiage whitewashing the goa catholic church could be equated to the famous last words of a london flower girl : i am a good girl , i am. _ All the news that matters. All the gossip from home. http://www.msn.co.in/NRI/ Specially for NRIs!
[Goanet]Caste and all that....
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dear Cornel: Although you stated that you would need some time to respond to my comments, your second paragraph prompted me to add some more thoughts on the subject. Surely, there are individual cases. And a few priests have made their primary objective to battle the caste system. On its face value it looks very noble cause. But below the bravado there is a miasma of personal issues and all sides. That battle is about the struggle for power and exercise of authority. Caste structures become the easy way to define the issue and position themselves in the power struggle. This is akin to Catholic Northern Irish Versus Protestants Northern Irish; and the brutal battle is not about being Catholic or Protestant, it is about something else - not a Catholic God versus Protestant God. Many of the power struggles in our parishes have been defined within the frame of caste. Often times they are battles of complexes, both of superiority and inferiority by individuals who themselves have unresolved personal issues. As a result, various parties have been engaging in misguided battles with terrible consequences to community. (in Konkani we say redde padde zogotta ani zaddancher kadd ieta - do not mind my spelling) Sometimes we need a cause celebre to define ourselves; and battling caste can be gratifying, and gives us high profile in the society. Amidst the obsession of battling caste one can see conspiracies everywhere, and how this imaginary massive hierarchy is colluding with the high caste. Our failure to do a dispassionate sociological analysis of the tensions in our communities has led to mistaken categorization of the problems, hence the unpleasant consequences. The idea of a massive hierarchy of the Church fits well in the conspiracy theory. I am not an apologist for the hierarchy of the Church. I try to examine the facts in an empirical way to the extent possible. I do not ascribe blind credibility to the statements coming from priests, nuns, bishops and popes, professors, or whoever. Every one has their viewpoint, ideology and agenda, including myself. If there is a massive hierarchy, then it is impotent. This massive hierarchy is residing in the figment of ones imagination, only to be pointed at when one is not successful in bringing about the desired results. We use lot of anecdotes to generalize the issues. Anecdotes are very helpful to illuminate the problems, but they cannot be used to paint the reality with a broad brush. Anecdotes are anecdotes and they are not the whole picture. Sometimes we exacerbate the problems by stoking unnecessary fires. Some smoldering fires are better left to be extinguished by themselves, by calculated ignoring and other intentional non-engaging measures; although some embers may come back to life with full vengeance. Can the Church eradicate casteism? ( my question is not if the Church should or would). Has the Church the ability and the capacity to eradicate caste? I argue that the Church, by its mission, is not capable of eradicating caste and it is not its function. No one, including the most enlighten high Brahmin, can wish the caste away. Caste is the reality of a socio-cultural order, and what one does with the position that the caste may bestow or not, on this individual, that is the difference. The prophetic function of the Church is to transform the society, and not to battle it. Some may think that by engaging in a battle, transformation may come about. It is a fantasy. The prophetic function of the Church is anchored in humility. Transformation is patient work, and, by nature, it is work in progress; always to be continued with renewed zest and zeal. Pulpit is not the place to eradicate the caste; it only polarizes the community. One does not eradicate the caste by antagonizing people. Basic psychology teaches this to us. To those who are championing the cause, it may give some personal gratification or some adulation among the like minded. The issue of Confrarias in Goa is very complex. It is paramount to understand that Confrarias are a legal institution, and not a Church institution. This legal institution, with a mission to support the devotions in the Church (ao servico do culto da Igreja) is beyond the purview of the Archbishop, and therefore he cannot affect them by edict (I am subject to correction on this one). The only thing the Archbishop can do, is persuade them, cajole them, rebuke them, etc... Our rushed generalized assertions often times lack good understanding of the issues, because we are in a hurry to change the world. The world changes one person at a time. While we
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that and a wake up call to Bishop Felipe Neri Ferrao
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## In catching up with the posts on caste, I was delighted to read Fred's post on 'Caste...and all that'. I believe he is absolutely right that the issue of caste in Catholic Goa should be brought out into the open for the benefit of all as we clearly have informed and educated people across the Goan spectrum able to engage in such discussion dispassionately even though they may see the world in quite different ways. So too, I would like to see some responses from Hindu Goans in this debate. In my view, akin to Fred's thesis, (as well as several others like Albert Da Cruz), caste stratification in Catholic Goa exists, following from its Hindu roots, primarily because those who have managed to claim and sustain that they are the upper castes have enjoyed a hegemonic position to the significant disadvantage of the rest of Goan society. Historically, the invention of caste has been a brilliant con trick to maintain control, by small numbers, over societal resources. Brahmanism, in theory and practice, specifically labels and allocates others (with limited exception) into closed caste groups, from birth to death, based thus, on ascription, rather than achievement. This has generated tensions between all the labelled groups and has undermined the natural process which normally leads towards social solidarity, and homogeneity among a group of people. It has also undermined basic human rights. For the caste elite, the maintenance of symbolic, political and economic power, was a simple matter in the past, when education was largely confined, by them, including the priesthood, to the caste elite. However, this is no longer the case and any caste claiming elite deference would be truly hard pressed to justify any taken for granted elitism on caste lines today. Instead, it has been forced to burrow deep into the social fabric but yet continue to do immeasurable social damage to Goa and the Goans without showing much face. It is worth pointing out that castes, like races, do not exist, using any scientific criteria available to us. There is absolutely nothing genetic which can possibly distinguish between so called castes or races. However, caste and race as concepts do continue to exist in people's minds, because, having been socially constructed/created, often by drawing on pseudo religious beliefs, they become reified over a long period of time. Thus, once socially created, they become 'real' and in terms of their consequences work largely and powerfully to coerce those perceived as the 'other'. This is to the real detriment of a society as a whole and the tragic reason for Catholic Goans persistently feuding among themselves and being in intense competition rather than co-operating for the general welfare of the whole community as such. Sadly, the Catholic Church has been deeply complicit in the perpetuation of caste in Goa. It was happy to eliminate the mark of original sin through baptism, but chose, for political reasons and self interest, to retain the mark of caste which could easily have been eliminated simultaneously with original sin at baptism. Such a lead would have helped greatly, as it did significantly, in the case, among others, of the Sikhs and Muslims in India. Sadly too, Catholicism in Goa, largely failed to lead towards egalitarian brotherhood and sisterhood in Christ. Put simply, the Catholic clergy, from the priests to the highest ranks have covertly and overtly, enjoined caste stratification rather than opposed it except in rare cases. They particularly undermined, with the support of the local Brahmins, those Catholic priests, who in all conscience, argued against caste in their parishes and pulpits. Thus, the Catholic Church, has shamefully, been the main supporter of caste in Catholic Goa. However, while being critical of the Catholic Church in Goa, all is not lost. There is still an opportunity today, for the most senior person in the Catholic Goan hierarchy, Bishop Felipe Neri Ferrao to retrieve the situation, to his eternal credit, and even eventual sainthood perhaps! All he has to do is to decree and ensure that at every baptism from 1st January 2005, the marks of original sin and that of caste are simultaneously expunged forthwith. Clearly, it is necessary to start somewhere and I would not wish his Excellency to say that it can't be done, but to move whatever mountains are in his way and just get on with this necessary task please. This may have been a fairly strident critique of caste in Catholic Goa but I hasten to add that it is not a personal attack on individual Brahmins, who through an
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## It is really unfortunate that the caste system survives all types of conversions: catholicism, islamism, buddhism, sikhism, in addition to being a bane of hinduism in India. I am told that Indians take take their castes with them as undeclared baggage to foreign lands and multiply it there illicitly. cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote No, no, no, my dear Gilbert, the persistence of caste in Catholic Goa has survived too long with all its destructiveness to Goan society as identified by Fred. It hasn't adequately been countered/opposed intellectually. And although, perhaps, casteists may now find themselves between a rock and a hard place, time has run out well beyond the sell by date and caste needs to be dealt with as such. Cornel Ideally, the caste system India was BEST BEFORE 15 August,1947 Why we use this outdated package in the current era is beyond my comprehension. Like the live but expired misiles and mortars from Iran that are making news in North India these days, they may explode in the re-cycling units of society in which they surface if not defused before the scrap goes into the melting pot. Viva Goa. Miguel
[Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Gilbert Lawrence responds: I would like to hear about a Chardo/ non-Brahmin Harvard MBA being turned down for marriage in exchange for a Brahmin school drop-out. Atam with soglem bhaile coming to Goa, and people settling in the village of their choice (economic ani leisure), the question and knowledge of where do you come from is redundant. Frankly only the petty-minded Goans link caste to which is your village? The reason: Most non-native (and native educated) Goans do not know Goa that well. I would request Fred to have thirty Goan villages and conduct a survey by asking the GoaNetters which of them are supposedly the Brahmin and non-Brahmin villages. Let's start with those who opine the loudest about caste.:=)) The rest of us will learn our Goan geography and a few things more. Regards. Frederick Noronha: Judging from the matrimonial ads in Goan newspapers Caste is still a major issue even among Catholics. True. Caste does come up strongest at the time of marriage. We've however been able to run the GOANET-CYBERMATRIMONIALS for a year or two now, without a single mention of caste!
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Did the caste among Catholics in Goa truly correspond with their pre-colonial lineage? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hi Gilbert, I haven't yet had time to respond to Fred's excellent suggestions regarding a debate on caste. However, I can't go along with your suggestion that caste is a topic for those who have nothing better to do or discuss. Your words clearly echo segregationist views in the USA in the 1950s at the height of the movement to desegregate schools in the USA and to desegregate bus transport. I suggest that your life in the USA has benefitted hugely (among other things) through the hard struggle towards equality of that period when you were not yet there. No, no, no, my dear Gilbert, the persistence of caste in Catholic Goa has survived too long with all its destructiveness to Goan society as identified by Fred. It hasn't adequately been countered/opposed intellectually. And although, perhaps, casteists may now find themselves between a rock and a hard place, time has run out well beyond the sell by date and caste needs to be dealt with as such. Therefore, please do not be unhelpful and stop this important debate even before it has started. On something else you might wish to reflect, in most organisations, to get anything done it has to be passed on to a busy person. Delivery and productivity from such people is infinitely greater than from layabouts who have nothing to do. Please believe me when I say that Goanet is probably kept alive and ticking by people with their own very busy professional lives. Cordially, Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:45 PM Subject: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
Re: [Goanet]caste ..........and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I dont believe that is the way we approach a problem . rene vivian d!souza asks: why did the catholicism allow the caste system to continue ? elementary dear vivian, let the archbishop of goa reply to your question. antonio _ Seized by wanderlust? Have the best vacation ever. http://www.msn.co.in/Travel/ Team up with MSN Travel!
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 15 01:23:02 2004 DO things really move on caste lines in this day age? IF YES, could someone/anyone give a LIST OF FAMILY SURNAMES ON CAST BASIS. e.g. Surname Cast ... . ..... ..... victor Unlike in the case of Hindu surnames (some), in the Catholic variant of casteism there is no clear one-to-one correspondence between surnames and caste. It is possible to trace such connections, however, when a surname is linked to a particular village. (Hence, the which-village-are-you-from question can hide more than just a simple interest in geography!) On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, cornel wrote: Victor, Caste is endemic in Goa among the Christian Goans. It takes so many subtle forms that a simple list of names would not suffice. In respect of caste, modernity in Goa hasn't yet started!! I hope some key knowledgeable people in Goa, whom I know, will enter the debate. Cornel Cornel, without offence to you personally, I can trace a condescending tone in the above statement -- much like the attitude of casteism ;-) Caste in Goa is being transformed, shaped and re-shaped. It's probably not fair to blame *only* Catholics in Goa (and not their diasporic cousins) for caste-biases and bigotry. Give us a little time and we'll start quickly catching-up with you guys and evolving ;-) Instead of just judging a person on the basis of accidents of birth, we'll switch to discriminators like class, racial origins, place-of-residence and what not. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 15 01:38:06 2004 Clearly to squelch all our prejudices, we must discuss this subject. We must admit our prejudices, and resolve to put them behind us. I prefer to answer any questions adressed to me about this subject with what my friend Cecil said: I have no Caste, I am a Catholic. You can't duck the issue so easily. My friend and senior journalist colleague P Sainath (who happens to be the grand-son of former Indian vice-president V V Giri... and I'm not name-dropping here, it's just interesting to see how some can rise above what should have been their biases) once put it across very nicely to me, while we were travelling in a ferry between Siolim and Chopdem. Those born in the so-called 'upper' castes can pretend that caste doesn't exist. But if anyone was born as a Dalit (the worst off) he would be hit by the reality of caste before he was four years old, Sainath said. Judging from the matrimonial ads in Goan newspapers Caste is still a major issue even among Catholics. True. Caste does come up strongest at the time of marriage. We've however been able to run the GOANET-CYBERMATRIMONIALS for a year or two now, without a single mention of caste! Among my contemporaries this is not an issue, or at least never a subject of discussion. I dont know what caste any of my friends are, and I dont care, and neither do they. To some extent, migration takes some of the sting out of the caste system. That's why Ambedkar (the brilliantly-educated Dalit leader) advocated that Dalits migrate out of their villages, and into their cities. When I went to Solapur once to cover an election for the Deccan Herald, the most educated man who spoke fluent English was a Dalit! That's also the reason why casteism in Bardez is a little less intense that in some other parts of Goa. But it's not absent all the same. People may not talk about it, but it's there, and also surfaces during elections. Anyway, any retired well-educated gentleman coming in from the US would be seen as belonging to a 'caste' worthy of being courted, so you wouldn't feel it ;-) Among Catholics at least there should be no castes. When a Hindu becomes a Moslem, the person no longer has a caste. Why did the Catholicism allow the caste system to continue? Don't mix up the two -- religious/ritual sanction for caste, and social sanction for caste. Some historians suggest that the Portuguese found the caste system close to their three-tier system of feudal times. (The word 'caste' comes from the Portuguese 'casta', the Indian term 'varna' basically means 'colour'! Portugal was the first European country to encounter caste in India.) Caste-like differences, if not caste, are very much present even among Muslim and Sikh communities. The human mind is given to discriminating and somehow feeling superior over anyone else. Whether it's caste or some other
[Goanet]caste ..........and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## vivian d!souza asks: why did the catholicism allow the caste system to continue ? elementary dear vivian, let the archbishop of goa reply to your question. antonio _ Seized by wanderlust? Have the best vacation ever. http://www.msn.co.in/Travel/ Team up with MSN Travel!
[Goanet]Caste........... and all that !
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Regarding Fred Noronha posting on this subject Clearly to squelch all our prejudices, we must discuss this subject. We must admit our prejudices, and resolve to put them behind us. I prefer to answer any questions adressed to me about this subject with what my friend Cecil said: I have no Caste, I am a Catholic. Judging from the matrimonial ads in Goan newspapers Caste is still a major issue even among Catholics. Among my contemporaries this is not an issue, or at least never a subject of discussion. I dont know what caste any of my friends are, and I dont care, and neither do they. Among Catholics at least there should be no castes. When a Hindu becomes a Moslem, the person no longer has a caste. Why did the Catholicism allow the caste system to continue ? Many of us have migrated to the far corners of the world, and the further away we are from our ancestral homeland, the less of an issue it becomes. But judging from occasional references on this forum, there are a lot of people harboring resentments. So let us bring the subject up into the open and dissect it once for all. I dont know if baring our souls will be therapeuitic and help the healing process or exacerbate the situation. However it is a risk worth taking.
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Victor, Caste is endemic in Goa among the Christian Goans. It takes so many subtle forms that a simple list of names would not suffice. In respect of caste, modernity in Goa hasn't yet started!! I hope some key knowledgeable people in Goa, whom I know, will enter the debate. Cornel - Original Message - From: v. fernandez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:20 PM
[Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Gilbert Lawrence responds: How about another theory on the issue of discussion on caste? (iii) A topic for those who have nothing better to do or discuss! :=)) Regards Frederick Noronha: Why not discuss the issue of caste (as it pertains to Goa) on Goanet? I think that George's presumption that a discussion on this subject would be unwelcome is not wholly correct. Permit me to begin with a thesis that could provoke discussion. My view is that (i) the arrogance of the 'upper' castes together with a strong sense of being discriminated against by the 'lower' castes combines together to block the feeling of oneness so essential to any forward-looking society and (ii) caste has dominated Catholic Goan society for much of the 20th century, and is set to dominate us for some more time to come. It also allows us to turn a blind-eye to issues like corruption, communalism, cronyism, reckless governmental spending, bloating-up an already over-bloated bureaucracy, etc... depending on who is responsible for this. Would you agree? FN
Re: [Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Frederick Noronha (FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not discuss the issue of caste (as it pertains to Goa) on Goanet? . My view is that (i) the arrogance of the 'upper' castes together with a strong sense of being discriminated against by the 'lower' castes combines together to block the feeling of oneness so essential to any forward-looking society and (ii) caste has dominated Catholic Goan society for much of the 20th century, and is set to dominate us for some more time to come. Would you agree? FN Comment: DO things really move on caste lines in this day age? IF YES, could someone/anyone give a LIST OF FAMILY SURNAMES ON CAST BASIS. e.g. Surname Cast ... . ..... ..... victor ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Why not discuss the issue of caste (as it pertains to Goa) on Goanet? I think that George's presumption that a discussion on this subject would be unwelcome is not wholly correct. Permit me to begin with a thesis that could provoke discussion. My view is that (i) the arrogance of the 'upper' castes together with a strong sense of being discriminated against by the 'lower' castes combines together to block the feeling of oneness so essential to any forward-looking society and (ii) caste has dominated Catholic Goan society for much of the 20th century, and is set to dominate us for some more time to come. It also allows us to turn a blind-eye to issues like corruption, communalism, cronyism, reckless governmental spending, bloating-up an already over-bloated bureaucracy, etc... depending on who is responsible for this. Would you agree? FN Frederick Noronha (FN)Nr Convent Saligao 403511 GoaIndia Freelance Journalist P: 832-2409490 M: 9822122436 http://www.livejournal.com/users/goalinks http://fn.swiki.net http://www.ryze.com/go/fredericknoronha http://fn-floss.notlong.com Difficulties to send email across? Write to fredericknoronha at vsnl.net
