Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Besides, doesn't a Commandment trump a Suggestion any day of the week? :-)) Mario, I don't believe that you have understood the difference between a commandment and a suggestion ;-) As an example, the atheists SUGGEST that one does not use the names of religious leaders as cuss words (I have yet to see an atheist do that.) On the other hand, there is a COMMANDMENT that prohibits using the Lord's name to cuss. Yet you have done exactly that Goanet. Another example I can give you is there is commandment that urges one to honour thy father and mother, yet you have gone and described yourself as a barbarian here :-( You have shown us quite clearly that you use suggestions to trump your knowledge of the commandments. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
Dear Mervyn, I do not create disparities, I just report on them. To liken situations and drawn analogies to Nazi Germany is simplistic. Elisabeth - Elisabeth, While you have some great points in the above, I find it troubling that you feel any immigrant has cultural poverty. That sounds positively Hitlerish. If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. There will always be parallel societies in any community. In Toronto for example where a child has to attend the school nearest his/her residence, some kids arrive at school hungry and have nothing to eat the entire day. Other kids in the same class are grossly obese. Lastly, Soweto did not evolve into a black township. It was created just to keep black Africans from living/mixing with others. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
--- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: Dear Mario, Your argument that there are economies in this world that follow the principles of laissez-faire in the absolute is bordering on the comical. Mario responds: I agree it would be comical if I that was actually my argument. For anyone to construe free market economies as pure laissez faire in today's world would be comical. Exceptions based on politics exist in every free market economy. The issue is what end of the spectrum - from ultra-soclalism at one end and laissez faire at the other - does an economy operate near, not any notion of theoretical purity. Can anyone seriously argue that the US is less free market than, say, France or Germany, India or China? Elisabeth writes: Even the US, with perhaps the most liberal economy has safe-guards in place that placate the conscience, social or otherwise. To mention a few, the minimum wage, tax relief and subsidies for agriculture (major WTO issue), tax relief for companies who outsource work overseas (a major bone of contention in the US), the recent ruckus over Dubai Ports Authority taking over the management of a few US Ports. Mario responds: In modern American political parlance, not classic terminology, the US economy, and those who have managed it for years can hardly be called liberal. The minimum wage is a liberal insertion that placates the conscience of left wingers while harming entry level or second-income employees. Tax relief is a mixed political bag to give tax incentives for certain politically powerful sectors of the economy. There is no special tax relief for companies that outsource. BTW, insourcing is creating more jobs in the US than those lost to outsourcing. The Dubai Ports deal had to do entirely with security concerns, not economics. Elisabeth writes: Come on Mario, everything in life is regulated, if not by brute force, as in a command economy, than certainly by sheer dint of political connivance, as in a free-market economy. Mario responds: Not true. Small businesses account for over 80% of the jobs in the US, with nary a real command regulator to be heard from. I have explained above that exceptions due to political realities do not change the basic rule as to what end of the spectrum a strong economy like the US', as well as other strong economies, are closer to. Elisabeth writes: Incidentally, there is nothing incompatible about being a proponent of a free-market economy with a social conscience, just as there is nothing incongruous about being an atheiest or agnostic with a moral compass. Mario responds: A social conscience is a good thing. Every successful company in a free market that does not have one fails sooner rather than later. We call it enlightened self interest. The question in economics, relative to your long lists of insistences in a prior post, is who gets to decide the major details of policies affecting the allocation of labor and material. The old Soviet Union and the old China and the old India did it from the top down and the havoc is there for all to see. Most of the countries south of the US have natural resources and potential tourist assets equal to the US, but are mired in various levels of poverty due to inefficient socialist economic policies. The US does it mostly from the bottom up, more so than any other major country, and has consequently been an superpower for decades. Is this even debatable? While there may be nothing incongrous about an atheist or agnostic with a strongly self imposed Seven Suggestions moral compass, there are no societal checks and balances, standards or consequences, other than the law, for the individual unorganized atheist or agnostic. Am I wrong? Besides, doesn't a Commandment trump a Suggestion any day of the week? :-)) _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Your argument that there are economies in this world that follow the principles of laissez-faire in the absolute is bordering on the comical. Even the US, with perhaps the most liberal economy has safe-guards in place that placate the conscience, social or otherwise. To mention a few, the minimum wage, tax relief and subsidies for agriculture (major WTO issue), tax relief for companies who outsource work overseas (a major bone of contention in the US), the recent ruckus over Dubai Ports Authority taking over the management of a few US Ports. Come on Mario, everything in life is regulated, if not by brute force, as in a command economy, than certainly by sheer dint of political connivance, as in a free-market economy. Incidentally, there is nothing incompatible about being a proponent of a free-market economy with a social conscience, just as there is nothing incongruous about being an atheiest or agnostic with a moral compass. Elisabeth Mario writes: No need to argue. Just look at the record. The facts are there for all to see. India in economics, before liberalization, and after. China in economics, likewise. The old Soviet Union countries, before and after. The stagnant major European countries like France and Germany with social consciences. Practically all the African countries, which have their own version of a social conscience, except South Africa. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Lest you think I have forgotten about your post. I had merely put it aside to respond at leisure :)) I too am a free-market proponent and as such believe that micro-managing economies is an exercise in futility. However, we've learnt through history free-markets cannot be allowed to reign without a social conscience. If this persists, what we get are neo-feudal societies, where one group grows more powerful at the expense of another. We can argue the economics of this at length, and we won't arrive at any conclusion. I'd like to invite debate on the social impact of such mass migration. No doubt, it will change the demographics of Goa. Is such a change welcome? Is it accepted because there is nothing to be done. We have to learn lessons from Mumbai and Bangalore, where Marathas and Kannadigas are now in the minority, a small voice unheard in their own politics. Mumbai as we all know is a city drowning in urban poverty despite being the commercial capital of India. Is this what we want for Goa? Or is there a way to systematically go about insisting on certain things; like proper housing for migrants instead of sprawling slums on communidade land, insist that they learn Konkanni as their language, insist that their children are schooled and not roaming the streets as beggars and urchins plying services for pedophiles, insist that the culture poverty that they bring with them is reconditioned. These are the hard questions for Goans living in Goa to answer. If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. Elisabeth When politicians and government bureaucrats make micro-economic supply and demand decisions it always makes matters worse, if not for the specific sector being helped, then certainly for the rest of the population, in terms of price levels and supply allocations, which then have a negative ripple effect on the entire local economy. No bureaucrat anywhere has found a way to efficiently allocate resources of either labor or material. Such extreme socialism is disappearing around the world after trying for decades, leaving extreme socialism only in dictatorships, in countries with God-given natural resources currently in demand, or in relatively small economies. Also, I don't think you can compare Goa, a state, with entire countries. Most, if not all, of the empty bellies you speak of are coming to Goa from other states in India. The conclusion has to be that business owners in Goa cannot find local Goans to do the same quantity and quality of work for the same wages, in spite of a natural preference for locals for reasons of language and communications, the lifeblood of a business. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
