RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## From: Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste? Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:26:31 -0500 From: Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] What type of E D U C A T I O N ? Religious? Academic? ...Theology? ...? Cip === Education is the broadening of one's mind. I was not refering to learning which you seem to be implying. Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA Cip, I would say all available/possible education; our braint is a veritable, beneficial sponge at absorbing what it is exposed to. True we can but expose it to good and(or bad); but it has phenomenal discrimatory powers. The rather-mythical IQ evalations are best ignored. After all how interesting a world full of Einsteins be or, for that matter, one full of worthy nerds? Alfred _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What type of E D U C A T I O N ? Religious? Academic? ...Theology? ...? Cip a) Teach your current and subsequent generations that caste makes no sense; b) encourage mixing of people from various backgrounds by inviting them to your parties and other social gatherings; c) if by chance, a couple from differing backgrounds happen to fall in love, encourage and nurture the relationship rather than questioning Are you sure you are doing the right thing (wrt backgrounds)? These are but a few ways that can assist in the education. But it all starts with you and me. Cheers, Gabriel. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Frederick, You say, To demand that a Hindu doesn't believe in a caste categorisation is akin to demanding that Catholics don't believe in religion, and after all religion divides people doesn't it? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense at all. All decent religions preach peace, goodwill and harmony, even if this may not be followed in practice at all times. Caste, on the other hand, is blatant discrimination pure and simple, within each religion. It may have had a rationale 5,000 years ago, but what is the rationale for continuing it today? It makes even less sense when practiced by Catholics. Did you know that they have separate Catholic parishes and churches for dalits and brahmins in Kerala? It is time to get beyond this despicable practice, regardless of how and why it started and continued for so long. --- Frederick Noronha(FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, rene barreto wrote: Writing or talking does not help eliminate CASTE , action does. Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? If so please share them with us on this Goan Forum. Rene, There seems to be some confusion creeping in here. What exactly is *the caste problem*? Do you mean caste-based discrimination and unjustified/unnecessary feelings of superiority and inferiority? If so, I agree with you fully and more, it indeed is a significant and serious problem. Some on Goanet are interpreting this 'problem' to mean any acknowledgement of an inherited, caste-based identity. Something which, we assume, needs to be denounced before we can move ahead. We need to be sensitive to accept that the Hindu position on this would obviously be different from that within Christianity. And I am nobody to sit in judgement on someone else's definition of their self-identity, though I retain my right to criticise 'urban myths' about superiority, etc R K Nair suggested this difference, when he himself pointed out (some might have missed the suggestion) that his surname makes it clear that he is a Nair (a Kerala-based caste known for its matrilineal traditions). I also do not think it's fair to blast Santosh for an accident of birth, whereas one could and should judge him (or anyone else) for words and actions. As a Helecar, Santosh will be seen as belonging to a certain caste (Saraswat Brahmin, in this case), whether he so defines himself or not. There's little he can do about it, short of disguising/dropping his family name which might be both undesirable or still unhelpful. This is just like as a Noronha I'm seen by the outside world as belonging to a certain religion. In Christianity, the problem is complex, because this is a religion which doesn't give any theological sanction for the acceptance of caste. For Hinduism, caste is part of the accepted religious world-view, so I don't think anyone from the outside has a right to go and preach in what direction Hinduism should reform itself. (This reminds me of the hypocrisy evident in demands being made by Hindutva proponents for the reform of Islam, its educational system, its family laws, its attitude towards women, etc. All very easy when it comes to 'reforming' someone else's traditions... it also gives us that smug feeling that we are somehow *superior* than the rest. We aren't!) As things stand in India today, untouchability has been banned by law. Even if that had some sanction in the past, it was an odious human practise. Caste, in itself, still lives on. In some states, official forms require one to fill in one caste. in the 'sixties and 'seventies, we had a column for 'race and religion', an experience we shared probably with friends in Africa then, and countries like Malaysia till date. So our school authorities hurriedly sorted out this dilemma by getting us to fill in 'Indian Christian'. I don't think any of the racial/racist theories of the past claim that there is an 'Indian' race. (At least not outside of North America, where the White man got it so badly mixed up!) Anyway, that was the way out then. Reform won't come because outsiders
RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## What type of E D U C A T I O N ? Religious? Academic? ...Theology? ...? Cip -Original Message- Tim de Mello on 23 November 2004 15:50 rene barreto [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? Answer: E D U C A T I O N Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, rene barreto wrote: Writing or talking does not help eliminate CASTE , action does. Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? If so please share them with us on this Goan Forum. Rene, There seems to be some confusion creeping in here. What exactly is *the caste problem*? Do you mean caste-based discrimination and unjustified/unnecessary feelings of superiority and inferiority? If so, I agree with you fully and more, it indeed is a significant and serious problem. Some on Goanet are interpreting this 'problem' to mean any acknowledgement of an inherited, caste-based identity. Something which, we assume, needs to be denounced before we can move ahead. We need to be sensitive to accept that the Hindu position on this would obviously be different from that within Christianity. And I am nobody to sit in judgement on someone else's definition of their self-identity, though I retain my right to criticise 'urban myths' about superiority, etc R K Nair suggested this difference, when he himself pointed out (some might have missed the suggestion) that his surname makes it clear that he is a Nair (a Kerala-based caste known for its matrilineal traditions). I also do not think it's fair to blast Santosh for an accident of birth, whereas one could and should judge him (or anyone else) for words and actions. As a Helecar, Santosh will be seen as belonging to a certain caste (Saraswat Brahmin, in this case), whether he so defines himself or not. There's little he can do about it, short of disguising/dropping his family name which might be both undesirable or still unhelpful. This is just like as a Noronha I'm seen by the outside world as belonging to a certain religion. In Christianity, the problem is complex, because this is a religion which doesn't give any theological sanction for the acceptance of caste. For Hinduism, caste is part of the accepted religious world-view, so I don't think anyone from the outside has a right to go and preach in what direction Hinduism should reform itself. (This reminds me of the hypocrisy evident in demands being made by Hindutva proponents for the reform of Islam, its educational system, its family laws, its attitude towards women, etc. All very easy when it comes to 'reforming' someone else's traditions... it also gives us that smug feeling that we are somehow *superior* than the rest. We aren't!) As things stand in India today, untouchability has been banned by law. Even if that had some sanction in the past, it was an odious human practise. Caste, in itself, still lives on. In some states, official forms require one to fill in one caste. in the 'sixties and 'seventies, we had a column for 'race and religion', an experience we shared probably with friends in Africa then, and countries like Malaysia till date. So our school authorities hurriedly sorted out this dilemma by getting us to fill in 'Indian Christian'. I don't think any of the racial/racist theories of the past claim that there is an 'Indian' race. (At least not outside of North America, where the White man got it so badly mixed up!) Anyway, that was the way out then. Reform won't come because outsiders criticise practises of any religion. It has to come when people from within feel the need for change; just as Goa's Devdasi system undertook a remarkable self-transformation in the decades following the 1920s. Aggressively critiquing and blasting someone else of another religion or culture (unless our intention is to merely score debating points) is unlikely to bring about change. If Hindus themselves want to reform their religion, it is up to them. It cannot be forced by one-sided critiques from elsewhere. To demand that a Hindu doesn't believe in a caste categorisation is akin to demanding that Catholics don't believe in religion, and after all religion divides people doesn't it? Incidentally, I think there is enough theological justification for even an atheist to be a Hindu in the religious sense too, though the same is not true in religions that grow out of Semetic roots. Maybe Dr Helecar will enlighten us about this. Though we know he doesn't define himself in religious terms, my point is that he well could, if he wanted to. Hinduism allows for that. All religions don't have to have exactly the same features to be treated as religions; Buddhism doesn't even believe in a god (sorry, capital G) in the sense say Christianity does. Also, I don't think 'idol worship' has any negative connotations in Hinduism, as it does in say in Islam or
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to denounce publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? Cip, Someone must have told you by now that the so called caste you inherited, is nothing more than an urban legend. Regardless of what caste was assigned to you, just try and purge the caste system from your mind. That way, you will not need to spend your life in misery, waiting for others that you consider higher classes to denounce the system. Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Finally, a bottom line kind of guy. God be praised! Rene, my suggestion is to just oppose it on moral and religious grounds, whenever and wherever it rears it's ugly head. I remember infuriating my Grandmother when I was a teenager when I told her she had to go to confession every time she spoke disparagingly about someone based on their caste. Drove her bonkers at first, but she eventually got the point. I have friends and relatives, Hindus and Catholics, who have married the most wonderful people outside their supposed castes and others who have been treated like crap by their families, some even disinherited, so I take this issue very seriously. --- rene barreto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Writing or talking does not help eliminate CASTE , action does. Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? If so please share them with us on this Goan Forum. LETS begin TODAY. rene - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste? Mervyn, Maybe you are used to talking to yourself. The rest of us need to know what the heck you are talking about. Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia wrote: Cip was saying that someone who is no longer a Hindu is probably not the best person to opine on this regiously based issue. As the Hispanics, say, Comprende? Mario, You either live in a fantasy world or have problems comprehending simple sentences. Mervyn2.0
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cornel: An excellent post on Hinduism. Although a Catholic by religion, and having never lived in India even though I was born there (my mother travelled from Kenya to give birth because of the primitive conditions then obtaining in Kenya), I still feel close to the cultural Hindu way of life. However, you say: I think it would be possible to be brought up a Catholic and be one culturally without continuing to accept that there is a God. I do not agree with you here. To me it is an anachronism - and I doubt if you will find much support for that concept. Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]Re: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Frederick, Thanks for the sermon, similar to what we hear every Sunday. However, what do you think specifically about castes among Catholics and the effects in today's society. Frederick Noronha (FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## It's very easy to poke fun about the beliefs of *others* and to advice *them* on how *they* should be changing. This is what the holier-than-thou far-Right Hindutva elements have been doing with the minorities in India. (Muslims should treat their women better; they need to reform their religion; Christians should treat other religions as equals -- never mind if that means giving up monotheism.) This is also what some Goanetters have been doing, preaching to those who come from a different religious background and happen to be on Goanet. We tend to see the world from our own perspectives. To us, *everything* that *we* do looks right and correct. Conversely, the faith, belief and practice of others looks wonky and upside down. What was it that the Bible was saying about the speck and/or log in one's own eye? Instead of preaching to others, let's start by criticising and reforming ourselves. Our own religions, cultures, belief-systems could do with a lot of mending. Reform, like charity, best begins at home. FN Frederick Noronha (FN) Nr Convent Saligao 403511 GoaIndia Freelance Journalist P: 832-2409490 M: 9822122436 http://www.livejournal.com/users/goalinks http://fn.swiki.net http://www.ryze.com/go/fredericknoronha http://fn-floss.notlong.com Difficulties to send email across? Write to fredericknoronha at vsnl.net Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Yes one can be a Hindu and not believe in God. I believed this to be so, but nevertheless, consulted three academics on the telephone who felt they were Hindu by identity and culture even though dismissive of caste and God. I had also read about this issue previously in books on Hinduism, where invariably, Hinduism was described as a way of life more so than a religion, notwithstanding a plethora of Gods rather than just one. I also claim that a non believer in God is perfectly able to write about religious issues, often, more insightfully, as they are no longer encumbered by a faith in God. Indeed, some excellent books on religion have been written by non believers in God or lapsed believers for that matter, including former priests and nuns and there are hell of a lot of such non believers in the world today. Similarly, I think it would be possible to be brought up a Catholic and be one culturally without continuing to accept that there is a God. I am tentative about this specific point but I am sure other better informed Goanetters could throw more light on this issue. Minimally, Mario, you were wrong on at least one aspect of your reply to my genuine (non feigned) query. The bigger question now is whether you can accept that you were wrong? Cornel - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia mgoveia@ Can you call yourself a Hindu if you don't believe in God? Can you call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in God? No, you can't.
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Writing or talking does not help eliminate CASTE , action does. Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? If so please share them with us on this Goan Forum. LETS begin TODAY. rene - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste? Mervyn, Maybe you are used to talking to yourself. The rest of us need to know what the heck you are talking about. Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia wrote: Cip was saying that someone who is no longer a Hindu is probably not the best person to opine on this regiously based issue. As the Hispanics, say, Comprende? Mario, You either live in a fantasy world or have problems comprehending simple sentences. Mervyn2.0
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tim, A Goan Catholic has to be totally deaf, dumb and blind to not be able to see all the misery that the claim to be of a certain caste has caused in the community. I have seen it among Hindus as well. If it hasn't happened to you, it has happened to someone you know, and it is a despicable form of discrimination. --- Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Except for those Catholics who still cling to the ridiculous fantasy that they are still Brahmins, Chaddos etc. and cause endless heartache for those who have married outside their caste or want to. Somewhere in that statement, I guess, fantasy ends and reality begins . . . to cause endless heartache? Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cip, I don't know about you, but I, as a Catholic, have never had a caste, so what am I supposed to denounce? The last person in my family that had a caste was the Hindu ancestor that converted to Christianity generations ago, and he supposedly denounced his caste when he converted. Isn't it up to those Hindus and Catholics who have made their family members and others miserable on the basis of caste the ones who need to denounce their castes? --- Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mervyn, It appears that Dr. Santosh Helekar is a Hindu not by conviction but by birth, inheriting so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste, which is very close to his heart. There is no doubt that Dr. Santosh Helekar is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) among Goanetters. We all also know that he does NOT believe in God and there is no dispute about this. However, he believes in his inherited so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste and he is holding tight to it. Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to denounce publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? Or is it very difficult for his mind and intellect to overcome his heart, the love for his inherited caste? Or is it Dr. Santosh Helekar's BELIEF never to give away his inherited caste? If so, why is he holding that BELIEF to his heart? Sachin Phadte, I am sure that Sachin Phadte is waiting passionately to denounce publicly his caste on Goanet as well. We know that you are waiting for the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) Goanetter Dr. Santosh Helekar to start. Please have little patience, perhaps, few more days. Of course, if you want, you may go ahead and do it before Santosh. No one stops you. Mario Goveia, It seems that you are ready to denounce publicly your caste right now but try to be fair to our Hindu Goanetters. After all, caste system belongs to Hindus. Radhakrishnan Nair, Radhakrishnan Nair's interest in astrology will help us at this time to predict which Goanetter will be the first to denounce publicly his caste on Goanet? Also, it will be nice to know whether the heaven will fall after the denouncement. Om Shanti! Shanti!! Shanti!!! Cip -Original Message- Mervyn Lobo wrote on 22 November 2004 00:31 Cip, I think Dr. Santosh Helekar has made it perfectly clear, over the past ten years, that he does not believe in God. As such, I don't think he would qualify as a Hindu Goanetter. Mervyn2.0 -Original Message- Santosh Helekar wrote on 22 November 2004 03:34 Merwyn is right. I am not a Hindu by conviction - only by birth. If you don't believe me, please go through the Goanet archives and find out for yourself. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mervyn, Maybe you are used to talking to yourself. The rest of us need to know what the heck you are talking about. Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia wrote: Cip was saying that someone who is no longer a Hindu is probably not the best person to opine on this regiously based issue. As the Hispanics, say, Comprende? Mario, You either live in a fantasy world or have problems comprehending simple sentences. Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cip was saying that someone who is no longer a Hindu is probably not the best person to opine on this regiously based issue. As the Hispanics, say, Comprende? Mario, You either live in a fantasy world or have problems comprehending simple sentences. Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cornel, Let me help you with your perpetual confusion, which I'm guessing is sometimes feigned. The topic was caste. Caste is part of the Hindu religion, right? Except for those Catholics who still cling to the ridiculous fantasy that they are still Brahmins, Chaddos etc. and cause endless heartache for those who have married outside their caste or want to. Can you call yourself a Hindu if you don't believe in God? Can you call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in God? No, you can't. There are other words to describe such individuals, like atheist, agnostic etc. Cip was saying that someone who is no longer a Hindu is probably not the best person to opine on this regiously based issue. As the Hispanics, say, Comprende? --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I really am confused with the content of the posts below. What exactly does Mervyn 2 or (is it?) Cip mean that Santosh cannot be a Hindu Goanetter because he does not believe in God? If the truth be known, there are millions who do not believe in God, especially, the biblical version of Him/Her. Cornel Cip Fernandes wrote: It appears that among all our Hindu Goanetters that Mr. Sachin Phadte and Dr Santosh Helekar are the two most intelligent liberal Hindus who are more than capable to denounce publicly their caste system on Goanet among others. Cip, I think Dr. Santosh Helekar has made it perfectly clear, over the past ten years, that he does not believe in God. As such, I don't think he would qualify as a Hindu Goanetter. Mervyn2.0
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I really am confused with the content of the posts below. What exactly does Mervyn 2 or (is it?) Cip mean that Santosh cannot be a Hindu Goanetter because he does not believe in God? If the truth be known, there are millions who do not believe in God, especially, the biblical version of Him/Her. Cornel Cip Fernandes wrote: It appears that among all our Hindu Goanetters that Mr. Sachin Phadte and Dr Santosh Helekar are the two most intelligent liberal Hindus who are more than capable to denounce publicly their caste system on Goanet among others. Cip, I think Dr. Santosh Helekar has made it perfectly clear, over the past ten years, that he does not believe in God. As such, I don't think he would qualify as a Hindu Goanetter. Mervyn2.0
RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that among all our Hindu Goanetters that Mr. Sachin Phadte and Dr Santosh Helekar are the two most intelligent liberal Hindus who are more than capable to denounce publicly their caste system on Goanet among others. Cip, I think Dr. Santosh Helekar has made it perfectly clear, over the past ten years, that he does not believe in God. As such, I don't think he would qualify as a Hindu Goanetter. Mervyn2.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## It appears that among all our Hindu Goanetters that Mr. Sachin Phadte and Dr Santosh Helekar are the two most intelligent liberal Hindus who are more than capable to denounce publicly their caste system on Goanet among others. Someone has to start for others to follow. In case, if you two cannot do so then please let Goanetters know what stops you two to do so? Goanetters, these are NOT just theories, it is happening on Goanet. May I request all Goanetters to join me sending best wishes to our two most intelligent liberal Hindus Goanetters in their Liberation. Om Shanti! Shanti!! Shanti!!! Cip Fernandes -Original Message- Sachin Phadte wrote on 18 November 2004 07:23 And that is why I asked Santosh whether his statement about the intelligent liberal Hindu not backing the public denunciations with private actions. smacks of hypocrisy. Unless or until the intelligent liberal Hindu makes the necessary sincere efforts, they will allow the politicians to use the caste system for their own self-serving ends. Sachin Phadte. _ Life on the fast track! Get hooked to it! http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Meet the champs!
Re: [Goanet]Re: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Thanks, Helga. Antonio Mascarenhas has also provided a detailed thesis that I am in the process of studying. Regardless of the history, I find the continuation of the caste system among Catholics, so many decades after conversion, to be disgusting and abhorrent. The Hindus can speak for themselves, but their culture invented the caste system and Christianity officially has no such segmentation. I know several very fine individuals, Hindus as well as Catholics, who have suffered untold psychological abuse and heartbreak by their own families when they either married or wanted to marry outside their caste. --- Helga do Rosario Gomes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Check the October 2004 archives - you missed a long and heated discussion on castes with excellent and analytic postings by Fred, Alito Siqueira and Basilio Monteiro. -Helga I am surprised that no Goan Catholics who live in India have commented on this issue so I am repeating my original posting. I would seriously like to get some informed opinions from people who may have some insights or opinions on this festering atrocity among Indian Catholics that has caused so much heartbreak over the years.
RE: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I do not understand why Radhakrishnan Nair has no choice to change his name? You may change to Radhakrishnan N Naik Or Radhakrishnan N Naique By changing your surname, your name may appear to be native Goan, perhaps, Saraswat native Hindu Goan. The heaven won't fall! Good Luck! Cip -Original Message- Radhakrishnan Nair wrote on 21 November 2004 14:56 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nothing! The heaven won't fall! In fact, such things are happening in several parts of the country. Inter-caste marriages among the Hindus are no longer a novelty. It's only the most obscurantist and ignorant among the Hindus who cling to their caste hangovers today. In fact, my own observation is that those who have nothing else to flaunt, flaunt their castes! I would have done away with my surname if I had a choice. Cheers, RKN _ Life on the fast track! Get hooked to it! http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Meet the champs!
Re: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mr. Radhakrishnan Nair, your heart is in the right place. I suggest you keep your name, but show the people in your community by word and example that, regardless of how we got to this point, it is time to change what is clearly wrong and to move on. While change is on the way, it is taking place far too slowly. Just read the matrimonial columns in any Indian newspaper anywhere in the world and you will see what I mean. People like you need to speak up for those who choose to marry outside their castes because, as you know, this can lead to endless trauma and heartbreak, regardless how accomplished and good the two individuals may be. --- Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## (Dr Gilbert Lawrence asks: What would happen if an intelligent liberal upper caste Hindu (and family) walked into a temple with a lower caste (and his family)? What would happen if a lower caste Hindu (and his family) took a liberal, intelligent upper caste Hindu (and family) into their temple and then had a meal with them?) Nothing! The heaven won't fall! In fact, such things are happening in several parts of the country. Inter-caste marriages among the Hindus are no longer a novelty. It's only the most obscurantist and ignorant among the Hindus who cling to their caste hangovers today. In fact, my own observation is that those who have nothing else to flaunt, flaunt their castes! I would have done away with my surname if I had a choice. Cheers, RKN _ Life on the fast track! Get hooked to it! http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Meet the champs!
Re: [Goanet]Re: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Check the October 2004 archives - you missed a long and heated discussion on castes with excellent and analytic postings by Fred, Alito Siqueira and Basilio Monteiro. -Helga I am surprised that no Goan Catholics who live in India have commented on this issue so I am repeating my original posting. I would seriously like to get some informed opinions from people who may have some insights or opinions on this festering atrocity among Indian Catholics that has caused so much heartbreak over the years.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Did you say that only Zoaroastrians have no castes? Do Muslims have castes? Christianity does not have castes, except among groups that converted from Hinduism at some point in history, like Keralites, Mangaloreans and Goans. Am I missing something? I am surprised that no Goan Catholics who live in India have commented on this issue so I am repeating my original posting. I would seriously like to get some informed opinions from people who may have some insights or opinions on this festering atrocity among Indian Catholics that has caused so much heartbreak over the years. Gilbert asked about how liberal Hindus deal with caste system, and Sachin responded very candidly. However, has anyone discussed the dirty little secret among many orthodox Goan Catholics and how the caste system, which they were supposed to have gotten away from when their ancestors became Catholics decades or even centuries ago, still continues to fester at or just below the surface, often bursting out into the open in ugly family disputes mostly having to do with marriage partners? I find this a disgusting and embarrassing practice in the Catholic community that has caused havoc and heartbreak among many families and continues to do so today, and it's not restricted to the Goan community, but exists among Mangalorean Catholics and Kerala Catholics as well, with separate churches and parishes for dalits in Kerala. Talk about Pharisees! halur rasho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Caste is the original indian sin. Every indian religion, with the exception of Zorastrianism has it. More democracy and prosperity is the only real cure and it will take centuries. --- Mario Goveia wrote: Gilbert asked about how liberal Hindus deal with caste system, and Sachin responded very candidly.
