Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro To sponsor Goanet operations, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Cornel DaCosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Informed people (with info accrued from substantial > reading and commonsense to do the reading in the > first place) would dismiss what you say as the > words of an ignoramus especially when you dismiss > Catholics who do unpalatable/rotten things as > suddenly to be NOT Catholics without saying > what on earth they become instead. > Mario responds: > Cornel, Rather than your pretentious and comical comments on "ought" versus "is" perhaps you should focus on reading what is written and trying to use simple common sense to understand what is being said. > For anyone to call Hitler and the Mafioso, who deliberately and defiantly and unremorsefully practiced and practice the exact opposite of Catholic teaching "practicing Catholics", is the absolute height of absurdity. > Besides, what kind of nonsense is it to demand to know what they become instead? You "ought" to know that if they were born Catholics and deliberately do not practice Catholic teaching, they become "non-practicing Catholics". Get it now? > Cornel writes: > > I note you studiously avoided saying that Saddam > Hussein and Osama bin Laden are NOT classified as > Muslims. > Mario responds: > This is another false allegation among the many that you need in order to try and make your case. I said Saddam and Osama were considered Muslim heretics by mainstream Muslims, which means thay are not practicing Muslims either, similar to Hitler and the Mafioso. > Cornel writes: > > And incidentally, I have followed more recent data > on Hitler as an avowed Catholic including details > of guidance from German bishops to Catholic > soldiers in WW2 to support Hitler's war with > all their might because he was a Catholic. This also > sounds like the Catholic bishops urging Catholic > school children to pray for Kennedy to become the > first Catholic President of the USA. This was at > the peak time of Kennedy's known substantial > womanising when married to Jackie. > Mario observes: > Any comparison between Hitler and Jack Kennedy is so bizarre, counterintuitive and false, relative to their Catholicism, that it could only come from someone determined to denigrate Catholicism by associating it with homicidal maniacs like Hitler. > Such false assertions cannot be allowed to stand, even as you pretend to support them with bogus academic sophistries. >
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro To sponsor Goanet operations, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mario I repeat that you commit the naturalistic fallacy. You substitute "ought" for "is" in your convoluted thinking. Your logic therefore follows untenable established rules in Western philosophy and possibly in most others too. Informed people (with info accrued from substantial reading and commonsense to do the reading in the first place) would dismiss what you say as the words of an ignoramus especially when you dismiss Catholics who do unpalatable/rotten things as suddenly to be NOT Catholics without saying what on earth they become instead. One illustration is that you say that a fascist cannot be a Catholic. How utterly unbelievable of you to say this. Just google "Catholic Fascists" and you will see thousands of hits with lots of historical details. By way of further interest, I have only ever come across one other person, and a Goan at that, who cannot distinguish "ought" from "is" and like you, he argues to the point where he is left with no one wanting to argue with him any more. He is a sad old lonely man today as no one wants to know him. You could be heading for such a fate too. I have personally seen the memory and artefacts of Franco, the Spanish Catholic Fascist literally adored in a special mausoleum built for him in a huge cathedral dug out of an enormous mountain in Spain. There is a 24 hour vigil in his memory in that shrine/cathedral. It would not surprise me in the least if Franco was canonised as a saint in the near future even though recognised as a fascist all his life. I note you studiously avoided saying that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are NOT classified as Muslims. And incidentally, I have followed more recent data on Hitler as an avowed Catholic including details of guidance from German bishops to Catholic soldiers in WW2 to support Hitler's war with all their might because he was a Catholic. This also sounds like the Catholic bishops urging Catholic school children to pray for Kennedy to become the first Catholic President of the USA. This was at the peak time of Kennedy's known substantial womanising when married to Jackie. Perhaps you have an overinflated, unrealistic and naive view of Catholic guidance to its parishioners on morality when it comes to prominent people including the many fascists in Catholic South America. Cornel - Original Message - From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2) > --- Cornel DaCosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Mario >> Just some quick points in reply to yout post. >> 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for >> serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, >> during and after the substantial evaluative reading >> and not instead of it! >> > Mario responds: >> > Cornel, > Reading and regurgitating the opinions of others is no > substitute for one's own considered opinions if these > are based on recognizable facts, common sense and > sound logic. >>
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
--- Cornel DaCosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mario > Just some quick points in reply to yout post. > 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for > serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, > during and after the substantial evaluative reading > and not instead of it! > Mario responds: > Cornel, Reading and regurgitating the opinions of others is no substitute for one's own considered opinions if these are based on recognizable facts, common sense and sound logic. > Cornel writes: > > 2. The evidence about Hitler being a Catholic from > birth to death is derived from thorough and well > regarded historical evidence and not from just some > of the points I drew from the published research. > Incidentally, you say that my views about Hitler > were discredited but this is only in your > imagination and not in terms of extensive rebuttel > you received as from Aristo when he absolutely > demolished your arguments on "devastating > logic and facts." > Mario responds: > I have no recollection of you or anyone else demolishing any of my arguments on Hitler's religious affiliation. Just the opposite. You avoid confronting my arguments and logic with facile claims and digressions. It is pretty obvious that for you, and those whose opinions you read and regurgitate, to continue to claim that Hitler was a practicing Catholic requires you to ignore all that he DID in favor of what he and others have SAID. > Being BORN a Catholic has little or nothing to do with whether one is a PRACTICING Catholic. One simply cannot be a PRACTICING Catholic if one OPENLY and CONSISTENTLY and DEFIANTLY and REMORSELESSLY behaves in total opposition to the teachings of the Catholic faith. > Cornel writes: > > However, I would be willing to consider your > historically unsupported view that, somehow Hitler > ceased to be a Catholic along the way. In turn, in > terms of your self asserted "devastating logic and > facts" I should like you to indicate that, > according to you, the 'devils incarnate,' Saddam > Hussein and Osama bin Laden are not deemed to be > Muslims or Islamo Fascists as you have been > inclined to label them thus. Put simply, if Hitler > can be rejected as a Catholic, then the same logic > should apply to the two Muslims named above. This > of course, generates anothe questio---what did they > become? > Mario responds: > To further your agenda against religion in general, you seem incapable of distinguishing between those who are born into a religion and those who PRACTICE their religion. Neither Hitler nor Saddam nor Osama practiced the core teachings of their religions. > Cornel writes: > > I also refer to your absurd state of denial that, > (because it is true in most faiths), there are > indeed rotten Catholics like the Mafioso and Cosa > Nostra that the Church holds in hope for eventual > redemption rather than your punitive kind > of 'eradiction' of such people from your Catholic > list. > Mario responds: > The Church holds out hope for everyone. What does that have to do with those who choose to PRACTICE vice and OPENLY and CONSISTENTLY and DEFIANTLY and REMORSELESSLY violate the teachings of the Church as the Mafioso and Cosa Nostra members do. Once again you seem oblivious to what people DO and are more impressed by what people SAY - especially those whose goal it is to denigrate religion. > Cornel writes: > > I am inclined to think that, your stance would > perhaps make the Pontif blush in embarrassment > about your "logic and commonsense" especially as > Hitler was never excommunicated by the Catholic > Church despite his vile deeds. > Mario responds: > It does not require one to be officially excommunicated to no longer be a PRACTICING Catholic. > Cornel writes: > > Finally, in a fruitful discussion with Gilbert > Lawrence, I took note of what he said when I > referred (much earlier) to Hitler as a Catholic > fascist along with Mussolini and Franco. Gilbert > preferred to refer to Hitler as a fascist who also > happened to be a Catholic. I informed him then > that, I was happy with his well thought out > definition! > Mario responds: > No PRACTICING fascist can also be a PRACTICING Catholic, regardless of what you or Gilbert may say. >
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
Mario Just some quick points in reply to yout post. 1. Commonsense by itself cannot compensate for serious reading. Commonsense comes in before, during and after the substantial evaluative reading and not instead of it! 2. The evidence about Hitler being a Catholic from birth to death is derived from thorough and well regarded historical evidence and not from just some of the points I drew from the published research. Incidentally, you say that my views about Hitler were discredited but this is only in your imagination and not in terms of extensive rebuttel you received as from Aristo when he absolutely demolished your arguments on "devastating logic and facts." However, I would be willing to consider your historically unsupported view that, somehow Hitler ceased to be a Catholic along the way. In turn, in terms of your self asserted "devastating logic and facts" I should like you to indicate that, according to you, the 'devils incarnate,' Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are not deemed to be Muslims or Islamo Fascists as you have been inclined to label them thus. Put simply, if Hitler can be rejected as a Catholic, then the same logic should apply to the two Muslims named above. This of course, generates anothe questio---what did they become? I also refer to your absurd state of denial that, (because it is true in most faiths), there are indeed rotten Catholics like the Mafioso and Cosa Nostra that the Church holds in hope for eventual redemption rather than your punitive kind of 'eradiction' of such people from your Catholic list. I am inclined to think that, your stance would perhaps make the Pontif blush in embarrassment about your "logic and commonsense" especially as Hitler was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church despite his vile deeds. Finally, in a fruitful discussion with Gilbert Lawrence, I took note of what he said when I referred (much earlier) to Hitler as a Catholic fascist along with Mussolini and Franco. Gilbert preferred to refer to Hitler as a fascist who also happened to be a Catholic. I informed him then that, I was happy with his well thought out definition! There are other points I could address but will save them for when I have more time beyond this New Year's eve. Cornel - Original Message - From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2) --- Cornel DaCosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Selma For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you entirely on your rebuttal of his contention that, religion and culture are separate entities. But then, with much respect, is Mario's view surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense rather than extensive and appropriate reading to inform his thinking! Indeed, from his posts, (and again with respect) it is suggestive that, he has been inclined to think that, his (non-reading) stance is emblematic of a virtue rather than an absolute embarrassment. Minimally, his differentiation between religion and culture and the way he has made his claim for this view is surely a kind of profound 'illiteracy' to portray on the much esteemed Goanet! Mario observes: Cornel, I see you have once again avoided addressing my opinions directly and are using Selma and some puerile psychobabble to TRY and make some points without citing a single word of what I had written previously in this thread. Also, let me observe the obvious - facile and unsubstantiated claims of illiteracy on my part are hardly a testimony to literacy on your part. Secondly, in my never humble opinion, slavishly absorbing and regurgitating the written opinions of others is no substitute for one's own common sense and a logical opinion of one's own.
[Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/ to Mario (2)
This weekend has been a slow TV weekend with multiple channels providing same coverage of President Ford's funeral and Saddam Hussein's execution. So I got an extra dose from the 'talking heads' on C-Span 1 and 2. The 'think-tanks' were talking about Hitler and Hussein. One member said that Hitler was at the best an "atheist" and more accurately a "cultist." These characterizations are a far cry from "Catholic Fascist" use by the 'thinker' from Goanet. Another member of the think-tank used a phrase which tends to apply to goanet - "cliche mongering." Kind Regards, GL --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To Cornel: However, anyone familiar with German and Nazi history would know that you have used the empirical/historical evidence very selectively. A fair and balanced use of empirical/historical evidence would indicate that Hitler actually practiced the exact opposite of the core teachings of the Catholic religion in several major areas. > It is pretty obvious that your agenda has been to denigrate and devalue Catholicism by claiming that monstrous tyrants like Hitler were practicing Catholics. With this agenda in mind, you have blythely ignored all that Hitler actually DID in practice - the genocide, adultery, murder, etc. that are anathema to any practicing Catholic - and have focused solely on what Hitler - and other anti-Catholics - have self-servingly and ostentatiously SAID about his pretenses and trappings of religion, like going to Church, etc.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Should be Kept Secular/to Mario (2)
--- Cornel DaCosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Selma > For a little while, there seemed to be an eerie > silence from Mario on Goanet, but I agree with you > entirely on your rebuttal of his contention > that, religion and culture are separate entities. > But then, with much respect, is Mario's view > surprising at all? It must stem from his consistent > and repeated view that, he relies on commonsense > rather than extensive and appropriate reading to > inform his thinking! > > Indeed, from his posts, (and again with respect) it > is suggestive that, he has been inclined to think > that, his (non-reading) stance is emblematic of a > virtue rather than an absolute embarrassment. > Minimally, his differentiation between religion > and culture and the way he has made his claim for > this view is surely a kind of profound 'illiteracy' > to portray on the much esteemed Goanet! > Mario observes: > Cornel, I see you have once again avoided addressing my opinions directly and are using Selma and some puerile psychobabble to TRY and make some points without citing a single word of what I had written previously in this thread. > Also, let me observe the obvious - facile and unsubstantiated claims of illiteracy on my part are hardly a testimony to literacy on your part. Secondly, in my never humble opinion, slavishly absorbing and regurgitating the written opinions of others is no substitute for one's own common sense and a logical opinion of one's own. > BTW, since you seem to agree with Selma that religion and culture are indistinguishable perhaps you can address her again to tell the rest of us why Goan Christians have continued to practice the Hindu caste system for so long, why Muslims can have different rules for the modesty of their men and women, and why Osama Bin Laden can proactively attack and kill in the name of a religion that forbids such actions unless for defensive purposes. > Cornel writes: > > He also consistently commits something called the > naturalistic fallacy in philosophy, by which, "is" > (or was) is erroneously equated with "ought." By > way of an earlier example on Goanet, Hitler was, > from all the empirical/historical evidence, a > practising Catholic. However, it is perfectly > possible to argue that, he ought not to have been > considered as one and I have no difficulty with > such a view when made. However, one can't > logically nullify the empirical "is/was" by > substituting this for an imperative "ought" in the > way a seriously uninformed Mario does. > > Where have such people been? > Mario responds: > As mentioned above, you have ignored everything I have said in this thread and have now jumped to some other thread and returned to your previously discredited and patently absurd assertions that Hitler was a practicing Catholic, claiming empirical/historical evidence. > However, anyone familiar with German and Nazi history would know that you have used the empirical/historical evidence very selectively. A fair and balanced use of empirical/historical evidence would indicate that Hitler actually practiced the exact opposite of the core teachings of the Catholic religion in several major areas. > It is pretty obvious that your agenda has been to denigrate and devalue Catholicism by claiming that monstrous tyrants like Hitler were practicing Catholics. With this agenda in mind, you have blythely ignored all that Hitler actually DID in practice - the genocide, adultery, murder, etc. that are anathema to any practicing Catholic - and have focused solely on what Hitler - and other anti-Catholics - have self-servingly and ostentatiously SAID about his pretenses and trappings of religion, like going to Church, etc. >
