Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
in the worldwide Catholic Church and it is somehow connected with Celestine V. (vjp) A safe bet is to presume that Benedict realized what he is in for. APOLOGIES, if I strayed too far, but upon reflection the connections may be more apparent. venantius j pinto To: marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com, goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) Hi Marlon, I was speaking out of practical experience. When I was approached by the Geelong Revival Group, which has a presence in Goa, as I understand, I was told that I would be cured of my skin ailment, psoriasis. In course of conversation with the people, they called the Pope names and said a lot about what they thought of the Catholics. This, of course made me think twice. Equally so, there are papers and editorials which try to defame the Catholic Church both in Melbourne and elsewhere in the world. I could say a lot about the good works performed here and elsewhere, but then again I would again be accused of superiority. These statements of mine in no way claim any superiority of the Catholics over other Christians, or indeed, believers of other religions. The statements were made because many people equate Protestants and other Christian cults with Catholics, and then accuse the Pope and Catholics for the behaviour of the aggressive Christian groups. One such instance was burning the Church of St John the Baptist (Catholic) some years ago, mistaking it for a Baptist (Protestant) church. Regards, Gabriel --
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Hi Marlon, I was speaking out of practical experience. When I was approached by the Geelong Revival Group, which has a presence in Goa, as I understand, I was told that I would be cured of my skin ailment, psoriasis. In course of conversation with the people, they called the Pope names and said a lot about what they thought of the Catholics. This, of course made me think twice. Equally so, there are papers and editorials which try to defame the Catholic Church both in Melbourne and elsewhere in the world. I could say a lot about the good works performed here and elsewhere, but then again I would again be accused of superiority. These statements of mine in no way claim any superiority of the Catholics over other Christians, or indeed, believers of other religions. The statements were made because many people equate Protestants and other Christian cults with Catholics, and then accuse the Pope and Catholics for the behaviour of the aggressive Christian groups. One such instance was burning the Church of St John the Baptist (Catholic) some years ago, mistaking it for a Baptist (Protestant) church. Regards, Gabriel
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Marlon, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I had elevated Catholics over other trouble making christian groups. Gabriel. From: marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 2:12 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) 3) Note that the original poster (Gabriel) elevated Catholics over other trouble making christian groups. It is a very common attitude shared by many intolerant persons of any faith viz people of other faiths. Marlon Meneses wrote: We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cannot say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! From: U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com If Marlon was not saying the above in jest, then I would like ask him if he thinks that souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi are in hell.
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
On 8 June 2012 01:03, Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Marlon, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I had elevated Catholics over other trouble making christian groups. jc COMMENT: Mogal Gabriel, Please note: You have no right to question Marlon (of the elevate Mt Abu school) (Not connected to the Mt Abu link provided by Santoshbab) (I hope). As far as I am concerned, once Marlon rules on any matter, the ruling stands .in the appropriate corner. Marlon can, of course, argue that THAT is his opinion; something which does not necessarily have to be supported by facts. jc from Tongue-in-Cheek-a-Mangloor
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
This is what you said: Protestants often spread misinformation about the Catholic Church, as can be seen now and then on this forum . Sounds like stereotyping to me! From: Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au AFAIK, there has been no attempt by any Roman Catholic Church missionary to make a statement that converting to Catholicism would cure them of diseases and ailments. I also understand that this claim (of a cure) is made by certain cults purporting to be Christian. Although the Pope has full responsibility for the Roman Catholic Church, he is not responsible for the behaviour of the missionaries of the protestant churches and cults. Protestants often spread misinformation about the Catholic Church, as can be seen now and then on this forum. Gabriel. Marlon From: Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au Marlon, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I had elevated Catholics over other trouble making christian groups. Gabriel.
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Barad, A couple of points before I proceed: 1) Please don't shoot the messenger. What I quoted is what many christians believe and what many believe to be the official policy of the catholic church. 2) Sarcasm alert 3) Note that the original poster (Gabriel) elevated Catholics over other trouble making christian groups. It is a very common attitude shared by many intolerant persons of any faith viz people of other faiths. So to answer your question, yes, many catholics/christians do believe that even a person like Mahatma Gandhi would be in hell. What is the official policy of the Catholic church? I guess it depends upon who you ask and how they interpret the policy of the church. In the long time past, the party line was very clear - if you were a non christian, you could say hello to hell. Today it is apparently more nuanced, but I am not an expert on these matters. Of course, the church continues to maintain its intolerance of homosexuality. What is hinduism's viewpoint on this? Marlon Marlon Meneses wrote: We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cannot say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! From: U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com If Marlon was not saying the above in jest, then I would like ask him if he thinks that souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi are in hell.
[Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
In my message, I had said: QUOTE Marlon Meneses wrote: We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cannot say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! If Marlon was not saying the above in jest, then I would like ask him if he thinks that souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi are in hell. UNQUOTE Gabe Menezes says: QUOTE RESPONSE: Marlon never says anything in jest; what he writes is the Gospel truth! even though it may be deemed tongue in cheek...You have a small window of opportunity to move over - take it while you can! Souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi...is this proscribed in Hinduism? Forgive me I am not up to speed on this...kindly enlighten...What about reincarnation and what not? UNQUOTE In each religion, the belief of what happens to the soul is applicable to all. So, the Christian belief is that those who are Christians will achieve salvation, and those that do not will not achieve salvation. In the latter case, they would be in hell for eternity. In case of Hinduism, there is reincarnation for all, and eventually the soul would achieve salvation. And after some time, the soul comes back to earth, and its life cycle begins again. Hence, I would like to have Marlons opinion on what he has said. Best regards, U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
But really, those interested in salvation at least of the Christian kind -- will LIVE a certain way. They will live a Christ-centered life, or do their best to do so. Basically no point in even talking about salvation. In an odd roundabout way many Hindus are expecting more from the Christian -- to live that Christ-like life, and they will remind you if you show lack. Most of us are lacing.. So all the turning the other cheek, and jowl stuff comes into play here. I feel that we Indians tend to get too attached to talking about Christian salvation. Seriously are people so out of it? It cannot be that people have taken to fear? As someone who sees myself as a Hindu Christian, I find it pathetic. Time will tell, or the perhaps the sword edge. Lets see what will it be. As far as I know, salvation is available to all, and it may be ignored and happily ridiculed, in which case it basically suggests an unmasking of ones being -- no matter what ones half-baked Christian neighbor, or even the zealous Christian neighbor may say. It is pointless that these angsts intermittently get interjected by the omni-potentates on Goanet, while questions that could bring people together, a hi here, a whatup there, a nod to someone's poetry, etc., (if that is the intent, and in the interest of knowledge) are ignored. Lord there is so much to do: read the Katha Upanishad, the Gospels, Junia (a Forgotten Apostle, and a woman), the Hadiths, disciplina arcani -- whatever and get a grip. Does anyone truly expect to get answers here?! But what do I know! People, give some respect to your minds and those of others. venantius j pinto
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
But really, those interested in salvation at least of the Christian kind -- will LIVE a certain way. They will live a Christ-centered life, or do their best to do so. Basically no point in even talking about salvation. In an odd roundabout way many Hindus are expecting more from the Christian -- to live that Christ-like life, and they will remind you if you show lack. Most of us are lacking.. So all the turning the other cheek, and jowl stuff comes into play here. I feel that we Indians tend to get too attached to talking about Christian salvation. Seriously are people so out of it? It cannot be that people have taken to fear? As someone who sees myself as a Hindu Christian, I find it pathetic. Time will tell, or the perhaps the sword edge. Lets see what will it be. As far as I know, salvation is available to all, and it may be ignored and happily ridiculed, in which case it basically suggests an unmasking of ones being -- no matter what ones half-baked Christian neighbor, or even the zealous Christian neighbor may say. It is pointless that these angsts intermittently get interjected by the omni-potentates on Goanet, while questions that could bring people together, a hi here, a whatup there, a nod to someones poetry, etc., (if that is the intent, and in the interest of knowledge) are ignored. Lord there is so much to do: read the Katha Upanishad, the Gospels, Junia (a Forgotten Apostle, and a woman), the Hadiths, disciplina arcani -- whatever and get a grip. Does anyone truly expect to get answers here?! But what do I know! People, give some respect to your minds and those of others. venantius j pinto
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Thoroughly agree with your statements. Indeed, no point in talking about salvation without taking the time and effort to look after the fellow travellers in this world of ours, and practicing restraint. From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) But really, those interested in salvation at least of the Christian kind -- will LIVE a certain way. They will live a Christ-centered life, or do their best to do so. Basically no point in even talking about salvation. In an odd roundabout way many Hindus are expecting more from the Christian -- to live that Christ-like life, and they will remind you if you show lack. Most of us are lacking.. So all the turning the other cheek, and jowl stuff comes into play here.
[Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Marlon Meneses wrote: We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians?have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cant say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! If Marlon was not saying the above in jest, then I would like ask him if he thinks that souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi are in hell. Best regards, U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
On 5 June 2012 07:25, U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote: Marlon Meneses wrote: We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians?have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cant say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! If Marlon was not saying the above in jest, then I would like ask him if he thinks that souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi are in hell. Best regards, U. G. Barad RESPONSE: Marlon never says anything in jest; what he writes is the Gospel truth! even though it may be deemed tongue in cheek...You have a small window of opportunity to move over - take it while you can! Souls like that of Mahatma Gandhi...is this proscribed in Hinduism? Forgive me I am not up to speed on this...kindly enlighten...What about reincarnation and what not? -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Good to know that Roman Catholics don't allegedly make statements about miraculous cures, except for the minor issue of eternal damnation and suffering in the after life if they don't accept jesus as their savior. I also fully agree with Gabriel that Catholics don't spread falsehoods about the Protestants - they only do it to the idol worshiping Hindus and the Muslim crazies, as can be seen very now and then, on this forum. We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cant say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! Marlon From: Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) AFAIK, there has been no attempt by any Roman Catholic Church missionary to make a statement that converting to Catholicism would cure them of diseases and ailments. I also understand that this claim (of a cure) is made by certain cults purporting to be Christian. Although the Pope has full responsibility for the Roman Catholic Church, he is not responsible for the behaviour of the missionaries of the protestant churches and cults. Protestants often spread misinformation about the Catholic Church, as can be seen now and then on this forum. Gabriel.
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Thank you Marlon. You must be the rare Mt Abu alumnus who uses phrases like don't allegedly make ... and moves the goal post a la the Canadian wet-Vet. Were you, hitherto, unaware that the Catholic Church made NO claim that ' Conversion Resulted in Cures'? IF SO ... 'com substantia' IF NOT .. ' convenient hypocrisy'? I jc On Jun 4, 2012, at 10:16 AM, marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com wrote: Good to know that Roman Catholics don't allegedly make statements about miraculous cures, except for the minor issue of eternal damnation and suffering in the after life if they don't accept jesus as their savior. I also fully agree with Gabriel that Catholics don't spread falsehoods about the Protestants - they only do it to the idol worshiping Hindus and the Muslim crazies, as can be seen very now and then, on this forum. We catholics have our priorities right. We know that Protestants and other Christians have half a chance of attaining salvation. Cant say the same about the non-christian heathens and migrants though! Marlon From: Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) AFAIK, there has been no attempt by any Roman Catholic Church missionary to make a statement that converting to Catholicism would cure them of diseases and ailments. I also understand that this claim (of a cure) is made by certain cults purporting to be Christian. Although the Pope has full responsibility for the Roman Catholic Church, he is not responsible for the behaviour of the missionaries of the protestant churches and cults. Protestants often spread misinformation about the Catholic Church, as can be seen now and then on this forum. Gabriel.
[Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
Nascy Caldeira wrote: When this BJP and VHP were asked for a dialogue, some years ago by the Church Authorities in New Delhi, these groups just refused to talk, as their sinister plans would be exposed. I understand the Church Authorities have had a dialogue with other Hindu groups. One such was in Mumbai, about three years ago, and the Kanchi Shankaracharya participated in it. I had come across the enclosed press statement on the points that he made. Can Nascy tell us if there has been a response to these points? Best regards, U. G. Barad Press statement of Pujya Sankaracharya Swami at the inter-faith dialogue with the Vatican in Mumbai on June 12, 2009 The Points that Pujya Periava made at the inter-faith dialogue and was made into a press statement. 1.Exactly one month ago to the date, the Pope went to Jerusalem where Jesus was born, for a similar dialogue that the Vatican had undertaken with the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. At the end of that meeting when the Pope and Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzer jointly addressed the Press and Media, the Chief Rabbi thanked the Pope for assuring the Chief Rabbinate that the Catholic Church would desist and cease from all missionary and conversion activities among the Jews. This is construed as endorsed and agreed by the Pope since he was present at the press meet. We need a similar commitment from the Church for Hindus. 2. After such inter-faith meetings, the points agreed have to be faithfully abided. Otherwise there will be no point in holding such meetings. Unless the Church reassures Hindus that it will not conduct itself in a manner that wounds Hindu sensibilities and follows up on those assurances, such inter-faith meetings, no matter how frequently they are held, will be futile and not serve any meaningful cause. 3. In 1999, Pope Johan Paul II had stated that the mission of the Vatican was to plant the Cross in Asia in the third millennium to facilitate the Christianizing of the world, which alone would cause the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Pope must tell us the rationale for the First Coming of Jesus Christ when there was no Christianity or the Church to undertake the mission to Christianize the world. 4. We see the USCIRF (US Commission on International Religious Freedom) as an intrusive mechanism of a foreign government to interfere in the internal affairs of this country. The USCIRF, which has been permitted to visit this country to hold meetings with our people to ascertain religious freedom in our country, must no longer be permitted to enter this country on this intrusive mission. We will not allow external interference into our internal affairs. 5. We know that very large amounts of money come into this country for Churches and Christian groups, ostensibly for charitable work. These funds should be used only for social causes like health, education etc and should not be used for religious conversion. During these dialogues, it should be agreed that the funds should be distributed to all Organisations who do charitable work, irrespective of the organisations' religious faith. A common pool should be created and a Committee formed to distribute and monitor the usage of these funds. 6. It has become easy for the Missionaries to convert Hindus. All Hindu Organisations and Associations should work together to educate Hindus and eradicate the conversion activity. 7. Hindu dharma is by nature diverse and so all different panthas and sampradayas co-exist on this bhumi without seeking to destroy the others. Hindu dharma has nurtured and supported all faiths and religions because that is the way of dharma. We expect that religions which have come into this bhumi from other lands will respect this vital characteristic of Hindu dharma and not do anything to subvert or disturb the sense of nationhood of this country. Hindu dharma and the Hindu people welcome Christians and Muslims, Parsis and Jews to make this land their home. We expect from these religions that they will not seek to destroy our faith, our religion and wound our religious sensibilities. We encourage all religions to live with mutual respect and harmony in a shared sense of nationalism which should bind us all as one nation. Nationalism should come first. 8. We are aware of the propaganda that they [the church] will cure diseases and ailments if the individual converts to their faith. This is illegal as per the DRUGS AND MAGIC REMEDIES ACT 1954 and we call upon the Indian government to take action under the provision of law. 9. Most of the countries in the world (USA, UK, Japan, Middle-east nations, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc.), adopt national resolutions and statements of intent proclaimed by their governments and their tallest religious bodies, affirming their determination to protect and defend the culture and the religion from which their cultures derive. In India alone we pass resolutions which
Re: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial)
AFAIK, there has been no attempt by any Roman Catholic Church missionary to make a statement that converting to Catholicism would cure them of diseases and ailments. I also understand that this claim (of a cure) is made by certain cults purporting to be Christian. Although the Pope has full responsibility for the Roman Catholic Church, he is not responsible for the behaviour of the missionaries of the protestant churches and cults. Protestants often spread misinformation about the Catholic Church, as can be seen now and then on this forum. Gabriel. From: U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sunday, 3 June 2012 10:16 PM Subject: [Goanet] Hind-Christian dialogue (was: Sanal Edamaruku trial) 8. We are aware of the propaganda that they [the church] will cure diseases and ailments if the individual converts to their faith. This is illegal as per the DRUGS AND MAGIC REMEDIES ACT 1954 and we call upon the Indian government to take action under the provision of law.
