Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 05:46:04 -0700 > From: nascy...@yahoo.com.au > To: goanet@lists.goanet.org > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests > > Hi, > > Some people on Goanet will always be 'hypocrites' and hide under some non > logical nonsense. It seems to be a 'trait' developing under a feeling of > 'inferiority complex' with some persons. They know who I mean! > See you Roland! I will be coming to Canada and soon, again this year, I have > two weddings etc. > > Cheers! > Nascy Caldeira > Nascy, Pls don't minf my sticklerishness, but doese'nt "non logical nonsense" violate the principle of two negatives achieving something or the other? Hopefully, I am confused beyond my ken; it is past m'night.. Alfred, copiously nonsensical...more often than not... _ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Nascy Caldeira wrote: > > Some people on Goanet will always be 'hypocrites' and hide > under some non logical nonsense. It seems to be a 'trait' > developing under a feeling of 'inferiority complex' with > some persons. They know who I mean! > Those who do not know who Nasci thinks he is superior to, he is referring to lowly primitive conservative uncivilized Indian vegetarians who do not wear western clothes. They also worship snakes. Nasci, Roland...etc., etc. - a pretty good coalition we have out here. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Hi, Some people on Goanet will always be 'hypocrites' and hide under some non logical nonsense. It seems to be a 'trait' developing under a feeling of 'inferiority complex' with some persons. They know who I mean! See you Roland! I will be coming to Canada and soon, again this year, I have two weddings etc. Cheers! Nascy Caldeira --- On Sun, 5/4/09, Roland Francis wrote: Please do not move the goal post. What is under discussion here is not Saudi Arabia's freedom of religion but rather the Persian Gulf's setting up of restricted standards of non-Islamic faith practice and abiding by those standards. And I repeat, since you have sidestepped the issue: India is a secular and democratic country, the Persian Gulf states are not. I leave it to the readers to judge who wears the mantle of hypocrisy in the matter of persecution of minorities Roland. Enjoy a safer web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now.
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Mario Goveia wrote: > Anyway, if you can make a few phone calls and ask your Hindutva buddies > to cut it out and go find something useful to do because they are > outnumbered by millions of sane Hindus, we may be able to move on to > some other topics:-)) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:17:56 +0530 From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" Yes, Mario.you are right ... We must move on to some other topics :-)) Mario adds: Dr. Barad, As the only voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace, I knew you would respond to my appeal and make the phone calls I requested:-)) If the Hindutvas respond as positively as you did, some of our friends will have nothing to write about on Goanet:-))
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) --- On Sun, 4/5/09, chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: > >Here is a list of countries ranked in order of how badly they persecute >>Christians: > > Please note that Saudi Arabia is at the top of this list, > second only to North Korea. > Here is the link on persecution of Christians by Saudi Arabia and other countries that was inadvertently left out from the above post: http://www.opendoorsusa.org/UserFiles/File/Open%20Doors%20World%20Watch%20List%202009.pdf Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Roland Francis wrote: > >No to mention that Saudi Arabia the country and custodian of Sunni Islam's two >most >holy places is a studied exception to the rest of the much more liberal >Persian Gulf >countries. Even so, the report does not have any mention of >persecution of non-Islamic >faiths by Saudi Arabia. > >And I repeat, since you have sidestepped the issue: India is a secular and >democratic >country, the Persian Gulf states are not. I leave it to the >readers to judge who wears the >mantle of hypocrisy in the matter of >persecution of minorities > It is disheartening to see that anybody could be so soured against and contemptuous of his own native democratic country as to lose all perspective in trashing it, while finding excuses to defend a theocratic state whose official policy is to discriminate against other religions and religious sects. Even this contrived defense can be easily shown to be hollow. Here is a list of countries ranked in order of how badly they persecute Christians: Please note that Saudi Arabia is at the top of this list, second only to North Korea. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Santosh Helekar wrote: > As for the comical defense below of the mythical protection of other > religions and justice in theocratic states of the Persian Gulf, here is > a link to what Human Rights Watch says about the situation in Saudi > Arabia regarding "Freedom of Religion and Religious > Discrimination", "Freedom of Expression", "Women's Rights", "Migrant > Worker Rights" and "Arbitrary Detention and Unfair Trials": Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 02:27:31 -0400 From: Roland Francis India is a secular and democratic country, the Persian Gulf states are not. I leave it to the readers to judge who wears the mantle of hypocrisy in the matter of persecution of minorities Mario observes: It is amazing how some folks deflect attention from a topic by taking it into a completely different area - without changing the subject line. I looked at the title of this post and then looked in vain for any reference to the abuse of Catholic nuns by Catholic priests - instead a spirited debate about the relative treatment of religious minorities in the Persian Gulf versus India, the gist of which seemed to be the ludicrous proposition that religious minorities are worse off in India than in a Muslim dictatorship. Why? Because you knew you would be a third class person before you went there, whereas you are officially presumed to be a first class person in India. To begin with, it is news to me that the Government of India is attacking or condoning attacks on religious minorities, though individuals and groups of individuals might be. In the meantime the two most powerful politicians in India today are a Catholic and a Sikh and India has had THREE Muslim presidents and currently even has a Goan Catholic as a state governor.
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) This message is in response to message: 10, dated: Sat, 4 Apr 2009, from: Mario Goveia on the subject as mentioned above. Yes, Mario.you are right ... We must move on to some other topics :-)) Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:01:34 +0530 From: Marshall Mendonza The day christians start killing, raping, burning people alive, destroying homes and property, vandalising places of worship, intimidating and threatening weaker sections, causing communal riots, spreading hatred, etc. you will find me taking as strong a stand against such actions as I am doing against hindutva atrocities. Mario responds: Marshall, You are still not getting it. This thread is not about the atrocities committed by Hindutva extremists. It is about atrocities committed by Catholic priests, while a Catholic Cardinal did nothing about it. I think you are old enough to walk and chew gum at the same time. Evil is evil, regardless of who commits it. As a Christian you have no credibility when you focus on the atrocities of others while so doggedly trying to whitewash the atrocities within your own religion. Marshall wrote: Are women in our homes treated any better? Please read the surveys conducted by various magazines and you will find that a large number of women in India are treated like servants in their homes. Mario asks: So, why have you ignored this issue till now, which presumably affects far more people than the targets of Hindutva extremists? On the same subject: Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:35:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho People like this will detract you and sap the energy from your very being. My advice to you, please continue with exactly what you have been doing because there are lots of people in the Diaspora that appreciate the information you provide. Mario observes: What? Now we have an Indian woman deflecting attention from the abuse of Indian women, including Catholic nuns by Catholic priests? BTW, nice to see that the Hindutva extremists have enabled you to discover Christianity again:-))
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:13:05 +0530 From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" Mario, I never knew that you have taken up the job as - Spokesperson to Marshall :-) :-) :-). Any way Mario, my question to Marshall still stands i.e. OK, let me accept that I am not a sensitive person. Does Marshall also accept that he too is not a sensitive person? Will Marshall reply to this? Mario responds: Arre, kya karoon, Dr. Barad! As the only voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace, I had to speak up because you will get an answer right after hell freezes over:-)) I don't think an insensitive person like you can wait that long:-)) As I reported recently, there are some Goenkars concerned about global warming who had put out the fire down there and were trying to install airconditioning, so we may still see the place freeze eventually:-)) But seriously, if you read between the lines, our friend has spoken quite clearly based on everything he has written in this thread, which he is still trying to divert to his one and only special agenda. I have been privately warned that this issue is getting so contentious that we now have agnostics re-discovering the beauty of Christianity, and that they and the other Holy Joe's may soon label me a Hindutva activist if I keep trying to draw attention to the abuse of nuns in Kerala:-)) Anyway, if you can make a few phone calls and ask your Hindutva buddies to cut it out and go find something useful to do because they are outnumbered by millions of sane Hindus, we may be able to move on to some other topics:-))
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Please do not move the goal post. What is under discussion here is not Saudi Arabia's freedom of religion but rather the Persian Gulf's setting up of restricted standards of non-Islamic faith practice and abiding by those standards. No to mention that Saudi Arabia the country and custodian of Sunni Islam's two most holy places is a studied exception to the rest of the much more liberal Persian Gulf countries. Even so, the report does not have any mention of persecution of non-Islamic faiths by Saudi Arabia. And I repeat, since you have sidestepped the issue: India is a secular and democratic country, the Persian Gulf states are not. I leave it to the readers to judge who wears the mantle of hypocrisy in the matter of persecution of minorities Roland. On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Santosh Helekar wrote: > > As for the comical defense below of the mythical protection of other > religions and justice in theocratic states of the Persian Gulf, here is a > link to what Human Rights Watch says about the situation in Saudi Arabia > regarding "Freedom of Religion and Religious Discrimination", "Freedom of > Expression", "Women's Rights", "Migrant Worker Rights" and "Arbitrary > Detention and Unfair Trials":
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Roland Francis wrote: > > A question not worthy of a man of letters. This is only the > latest in a long line of utterly clueless comments you have been > making on this subject. > I guess a person who does not buy a particular jaundiced view about India cannot be expected to voice his opinions here without being subjected to innuendo and insults. As you can see below even that person's profession is dragged in as a prop for ridicule. As for the comical defense below of the mythical protection of other religions and justice in theocratic states of the Persian Gulf, here is a link to what Human Rights Watch says about the situation in Saudi Arabia regarding "Freedom of Religion and Religious Discrimination", "Freedom of Expression", "Women's Rights", "Migrant Worker Rights" and "Arbitrary Detention and Unfair Trials": http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79258 Contrast this to what it says about India at the link below with regard to "secessionist conflicts", "Protests in Jammu and Kashmir", "Violence in Manipur and Other Northeastern States", "Naxalite Conflict", "Impunity", "Protection of Vulnerable Communities" and "Human Rights Defenders": http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79327 Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Roland Francis wrote: > > To answer your question: > India is supposed to be avowed secular. Therefore what is > happening in > India is not to be expected. > > Most of the Persian Gulf countries are avowedly Islamic. > They make no > bones about it. You go there knowing what the situation is. > That is > not your country. You are a guest-worker there. Yet, having > said that, > they make sensible concessions to people of other faiths. > They > suppress fundamentalists who are against such concessions. > They will > enforce law and order and punish any zealots of their faith > who will > attack those of other religions. Not that such enforcement > has been > necessary. The mere knowledge of the consequences prevent > such > anti-religion attacks. > > With your knowledge of scientific facts, how to gather them > and arrive > at scientific conclusions, I am disappointed you don't make > use of > such processes when asking such questions in matters of > non-science. > > Roland. >
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Santosh, A question not worthy of a man of letters. This is only the latest in a long line of utterly clueless comments you have been making on this subject. To answer your question: India is supposed to be avowed secular. Therefore what is happening in India is not to be expected. Most of the Persian Gulf countries are avowedly Islamic. They make no bones about it. You go there knowing what the situation is. That is not your country. You are a guest-worker there. Yet, having said that, they make sensible concessions to people of other faiths. They suppress fundamentalists who are against such concessions. They will enforce law and order and punish any zealots of their faith who will attack those of other religions. Not that such enforcement has been necessary. The mere knowledge of the consequences prevent such anti-religion attacks. With your knowledge of scientific facts, how to gather them and arrive at scientific conclusions, I am disappointed you don't make use of such processes when asking such questions in matters of non-science. Roland. On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Santosh Helekar wrote: > > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Marshall Mendonza wrote: >> People working in the Gulf are far tuned to what is happening here. > How does the widespread religious oppression and lack of religious freedom in > India, described in the above post, contrast with the secularism being > practiced in the Persian Gulf? > Cheers, > Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Marshall Mendonza wrote: > > People working in the Gulf are far tuned to what is happening here. > How does the widespread religious oppression and lack of religious freedom in India, described in the above post, contrast with the secularism being practiced in the Persian Gulf? Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) This message is in reply to message: 11, dated: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 from: Mario Goveia on the subject mentioned herein above. Mario, I never knew that you have taken up the job as - Spokesperson to Marshall :-) :-) :-). Any way Mario, my question to Marshall still stands i.e. OK, let me accept that I am not a sensitive person. Does Marshall also accept that he too is not a sensitive person? Will Marshall reply to this? Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Message: 7 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:01:34 +0530 From: Marshall Mendonza Subject: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests Marshall, You are right. Even my mindset of my native place is of the early 70s and it will be hard for me to understand how come all of a sudden this communalism has taken over peaceful and friendly co-existance. Although our church forbade us from attending any Hindu rituals, visit to temple etc, it was quite normal to see our Hindu brethren to light candles, collect holy oil (whereever provided) during our annual parish feasts. Faith was not an issue at all. One could not imagine attack on Catholic churches in Mangalore for that matter. Because, during captivity of Mangalorean Catholics during the regime of Tipu, many Hindu neighbours have given refuge to some of them and even a church in Moodbidri was saved on the behest of the Hindu ruler of that area and we had always enjoyed excellent relations with all sects of our Hindu brethren. Alas, power hungry politicians have sowed the seed of communalism and we are too few numerically to have our voice heard and do not enjoy or have politial clout. It is like me sitting in an airconditioned room abroad and thinking of the native place, oh! how much I miss that. However, if I land there during summer, I know how difficult I find to live there, because neither can I bear the heat and humidity nor the mosquitos in the evening/night. The power situaltion is as irratic as it was decades ago and I would want to get out of the place as soon as possible. So there is vast difference between imagination and reality. However, the subject of priests ill treating nuns can be brought to the attention of the superior of any particular convent at the same time there are few instances where the nuns themselves ill treat novices and or convent servants, display different attitudes towards rich and poor students. Priests do not like auditing the financesthe list can go on. What more can be greater than CEOs, CEs bonus is linked to their employment contract rather than the perormance of the company!! Strange but true, is it not? Maurice D.
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Marshall Mendonza wrote: > > Mario, > > The day christians start killing, raping, burning people > alive, destroying > homes and property, vandalising places of worship, > intimidating and > threatening weaker sections, causing communal riots, > spreading hatred, etc. > you will find me taking as strong a stand against > such actions as I am > doing against hindutva atrocities. --- Dear Marshall, People like this will detract you and sap the energy from your very being. My advice to you, please continue with exactly what you have been doing because there are lots of people in the Diaspora that appreciate the information you provide. Best, Selma
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Mario, The day christians start killing, raping, burning people alive, destroying homes and property, vandalising places of worship, intimidating and threatening weaker sections, causing communal riots, spreading hatred, etc. you will find me taking as strong a stand against such actions as I am doing against hindutva atrocities. I would expect you to understand and realise that India faces many problems, some minor, some major. It is important to focus on the major issues which affect the lives and safety of many of us. Living in the USA, you have no clue to the problems minorities like christians face in the country today. People working in the Gulf are far tuned to what is happening here. Things are not the same what they were when you left the country 38 years ago. Perhaps in states like Goa and Kerala where they are in large numbers, they do not face the kind of problems that they face elsewhere in the country. As Eddie put it very rightly, what has been reported in the media and which I have been posting are only the tip of the iceberg. There are daily cases of harassment and intimidation and violence that christians and christian institutions face. Sometime back the mobile clinic of the Missionaries of Charity sisters was attacked by Bajrang Dal workers and they beat up the driver and destroyed all the medicines and equipment besides threatening the nuns. The nuns did not file a police case because they wanted to continue working among the poor who would have been deprived and did not want to get into a confrontation. In another case, the principal of a school who refused to give admission on a recommendation of a shiv sena politician, was arrested on trumped up charges of molestation. Prayer meetings are disrupted. Permissions to hold open air services are withheld. The carol festival in New Bombay had to be shifted out as the HJS/SS workers objected. They have tried to impose a ban on cow slaughter in the north-east where eating of pork and beef is a staple diet. Recently, another principal of a school, a nun, was arrested on false charges of 'illegal confinement' when some parents who did not want to pay the school fees filed false charges. In another case, VHP / BD workers barged into the school and threatened the principal asking why the portrait of Veer Savarkar was not hung up. In states like Gujarat, Orissa, MP, Chhatisgarh, Rajasthan and now Karnataka where the BJP is / was ruling, harassment and intimidation of christians has almost been institutionalised. Cases are filed on the flimsiest of grounds, they are made to run from pillar to post, staff and workers are instigated to create trouble so that the time, money and attention of the administrators are taken only to run from police station to government offices and courts. And I could go on and on. We need to differentiate between a behavioral issue (of nuns being treated like servants) and a social issue where the peace and tranquility of citizens are disrupted. Are women in our homes treated any better? Please read the surveys conducted by various magazines and you will find that a large number of women in India are treated like servants in their homes. Many of them do not only have to go to work, but also have to take on responsibilities of child rearing and housework in addition. While emancipation of women is certainly taking place, it has a long way to go. I have spent some time in the north, where I have seen women being treated worse than cattle, even educated ones. Ask any woman who has lived in Delhi to narrate to you their experiences. The discrimination against women has been universal. In England, women were given the right to vote only in the 19th Century. Clubs like Bombay Gymkhana did not admit women members till they fought a legal battle. The RSS does not admit women members. They have set up a separate cell for them where they are brainwashed to think that housekeeping and child rearing are their sole responsibility. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) This message is in reply to Message: 5, Dated: Tue, 31 Mar 2009, from: Fr. Ivo C da Souza, on above subject. Fr. Ivo writes under point No: 4: It is Christianity, not Science, that has empowered women, wherever society was enslaving them, including in India. It was a gradual process. Christianity (for that matter also other religions, to some extent) has enlightened the Barbarian hordes and has given us today a place where we can live in a human, rational way, where Science can evolve freely, responsibly and ethically. My response: Yes I fully agree with you on what Christianity is. Having said this I go a step forward: you are not answering the right question under debate. Yes, I do understand all fathers and brothers of Christian fold are also human beings.but that does not allow them or give them right to treat Nuns like servants.nor it gives them any right to put them under any pressure... and yet you call Christianity has empowered women.. Please be convinced that Nuns are Women not your slaves no matter whether you are father or brother of Christian religion. They too serve for Christianity. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:07:43 +0530 From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" OK, let me accept that I am not a sensitive person. Does Marshall also accept that he too is not a sensitive person? Mario observes: Dr. Barad, thanks for confirming what we already knew about you:-)) However, Marshall, too, has already confirmed how "sensitive" he is when he wrote in: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175930.html Excerpt: Regarding the matter of the nuns, I had made myself very clear, that I prefer to post / comment on social issues which affect the peace and well being of the wider community. I do not generally comment on religion or intra- religious matters as I believe that they are better sorted out from within the communities where there is greater acceptance. But since you have been persisting for a response, I will make an exception. Nun's case: Here is my take on the subject. 1. There is no compulsion on anyone to join the convent. It is purely voluntary. 2. If on joining, one finds that life is not what it is made out to be, one can freely opt out. No one can bind you or tie you in there. 3. The nun spent 33 years in the convent.Why did she continue to be in the convent all these years? Why did she keep silent all these years? Why did she not bring this to the attention of her superiors or bishop or any higher ecclestical authority? Why did she not report to the police in case she felt intimidated within the convent? Why did she not think of changing her order? We need answers to get a clearer picture. 4.I find it difficult to believe that lesbianism or sexual harassment is rampant as is being made out. There are over 2500 nuns serving in various institutions and capacities all over India. This is the first case that has come to public attention. It is entirely possible that there was a one off incident which in any case can be traumatic for the victim. It happens in homes and families too. I sympathise with the victim and hope she can overcome the trauma. [end of excerpt] I've been trying to get Marshall to not be so sensitive so that he can use the same standard for bad Christians that he uses for Hindutva extremists.
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical references, some photographs and documents) This message is in reply to message: 6, dated: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 from Marshall on above subject. In his response to my message he typically evades the issue. Instead he prefers to ask me about sensitivity, instead of dealing with the topic concerned. OK, let me accept that I am not a sensitive person. Does Marshall also accept that he too is not a sensitive person? Dr. U. G. Barad
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Barad I am indeed touched by the sensitivity and concern displayed by you for our nuns who have been badly treated by some priests. Did you feel similarly for the nun who was raped at Kandhamal, Orissa. Or for Rajni Manjhi, the hindu orphan girl who was set ablaze alive by persons who share your ideology. Or for Fr Bernard Digal who was beaten up so badly that he later died from his injuries? If so, I must have missed your posting. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Dear GN Members, Allow me to post my views which I have expressed in GN forum much earlier. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad My posting to GN: A nun in Kerala has written a book in which she narrates her very unpleasant experiences in the church, with respect to her non-spiritual duties. On this issue, Marshall writes: "The nun spent 33 years in the convent. Why did she continue to be in the convent all these years? Why did she keep silent all these years? Why did she not bring this to the attention of her superiors or bishop or any higher ecclestical authority? Why did she not report to the police in case she felt intimidated within the convent? Why did she not think of changing her order? We need answers to get a clearer picture." I personally found this to be a very insensitive response. It would seem that Marshall has doubts whether the charges made by the nun are correct. There are many people, in all sorts of situation, who bear unpleasantness to the extreme. This happens all over the world, and it is not only in religious lives. Based on what I have read, it does seem that the nun brought her experiences to the higher-ups in the church. But nothing seems to have been done. Once again, I would like to state that Marshall has not been fair in this issue. Dr U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
From: "Sandeep Heble" Fr Ivo wrote: Can you mention just one? Are there "many" priests who are, according to you, "treating the nuns like servants" using the Bible? You are already attributing an error to the Bible, namely that the Bible "demeans women". Do you want me to teach you the biblical statements on empowerment of women in the Jewish society? What was Jesus' attitude towards women? -- My response: A quick Google search directed me to several links. Here are just a couple of them which could answer your queries though I cannot vouch for their authenticity. http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm Books like the Bible (and those of most other religions) were figments of human imagination written in times when male society was highly dominant treating women like inferior citizens. Concepts like equality were obviously alien in those dark ages. Some of them were even political doctrines intended to subjugate and conquer other races. When science has grown by leaps and bounds, why then does religion stagnate and refuse to grow and evolve? We need to stop taking our holy books to be the infallible words of God. There is a need for a scholarly research of all the religions of the world. The scriptures need to be purged of all instances of hate speeches, irrational thoughts and discriminatory verses. A modern liberal society needs to undertake this kind of an exercise. This is the least it owes to posterity. ***As you already admit, you "cannot vouch for their authenticity", when you are directing us to several links provided by Google search and expecting answers from them. A random Google search cannot answer our quest for God. Let us be critical. I am answering you from the Jewish-Christian perspective, since we are discussing about the teaching of the Bible on women. 1.Bible is the Word of God. God has made in history a covenant with the people of Israel and with the whole humankind. Bible is infallible as far as the saving truth is concerned. It is guiding the world even today. I have no doubt about it. 2.Scholarly research on biblical exegesis, history, archaeology, hermeneutics is going on in the Universities throughout the world. 3.Scriptures have to be interpreted, not "purged of all instances of hate speeches, irrational thoughts and discriminatory verses" that you may find there with your lenses. (As you admit, you will not be able to vouch for the accusing statements). 4.It is Christianity, not Science, that has empowered women, wherever society was enslaving them, including in India. It was a gradual process. Christianity (for that matter also other religions, to some extent) has enlightened the Barbarian hordes and has given us today a place where we can live in a human, rational way, where Science can evolve freely, responsibly and ethically. 5.In the links provided by you there are several basic errors about the Bible and quotations from the Bible. The quotation attributed to the biblical scholar, Father Roland de Vaux, does not give the teaching of the Bible, but the situation of the women in the Jewish society, which was also in the rest of the world. In India there were (and unfortunately there are) worse crimes against women and children... 6."Male chauvinism" has always been there. It is there also today. But there is a transformation through Gospel values throughout the world. It is being translated in international laws and declarations of human rights. Jesus has been a Revolutionary in the empowerment of women and ostracised people. The Church continues the work of her Master. I do not know what you have to say about it. I shall need more space to comment on the links that you have provided. India has a lot to do in this field. Religions should help us to do that work. Science cannot provide ethical values to the world. Reason is already enlghtened by Faith, that is what should continue... This is what we are leaving to posterity. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Fr Ivo wrote: >>Can you mention just one? Are there "many" priests who are, according to >>you, "treating the nuns like servants" using the Bible? >>You are already attributing an error to the Bible, namely that the Bible >>"demeans women". Do you want me to teach you the biblical statements on >>empowerment of women in the Jewish society? What was Jesus' attitude towards women? -- My response: A quick Google search directed me to several links. Here are just a couple of them which could answer your queries though I cannot vouch for their authenticity. http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm Books like the Bible (and those of most other religions) were figments of human imagination written in times when male society was highly dominant treating women like inferior citizens. Concepts like equality were obviously alien in those dark ages. Some of them were even political doctrines intended to subjugate and conquer other races. When science has grown by leaps and bounds, why then does religion stagnate and refuse to grow and evolve? We need to stop taking our holy books to be the infallible words of God. There is a need for a scholarly research of all the religions of the world. The scriptures need to be purged of all instances of hate speeches, irrational thoughts and discriminatory verses. A modern liberal society needs to undertake this kind of an exercise. This is the least it owes to posterity. Cheers Sandeep
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
From: "Aires Cabral" Many priests are chauvinists. ***What proof do you have? Are they many, or a few, some, or all? It is no surprise that they treat the nuns like servants. ***Are there many who treat the nuns like servants? On what are you basing this statement? Are there today priests treating the nuns like servants? When they work for the cleanliness of the churches and seminaries and episcopal houses are they "servants"? When our mothers, sisters or wives work in the kitchen or in the house or in the garden are they "servants"? Are they "servants" when they stitch our clothes or wash our garments? Are you using the women in your house as "servants"? After all there are several passages in the Bible which demean women, and these are used by these priests to treat women as third class citiziens ( second class citiziens are lay men). ***Can you mention just one? Are there "many" priests who are, according to you, "treating the nuns like servants" using the Bible? In India there are people, including husbands, who are treating their wives like servants, are they rooted in the "several passages" found in the "Bible"? Can Fr Ivo enlighten us with his comments in the matter. ***What comments do you expect from me? That the Bible teaches us to "demean" women"? That the priests are obeying the Bible, if and when they "treat nuns like servants"? That the Indian husbands "treating their wives like servants" are following the Bible, the saving Word of God? After all he has said in one of his comments that the Bible is newer wrong! ***You are already attributing an error to the Bible, namely that the Bible "demeans women". Do you want me to teach you the biblical statements on empowerment of women in the Jewish society? What was Jesus' attitude towards women? Did I use any time the unqualified statement that the "Bible is newer (sic) wrong"? Bible is the Word of God, it teaches saving truth. We do not speak about inerrancy, but about the biblical-saving truth, because Bible is not teaching Science or history or geography. But it contains historical nucleus, it has its own geography, because Revelation is historical and spatio-temporal. It has come through the prophets and through Jesus, of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God. It entails pre-scientific and semitic conceptions about the constitution of the world, it corrects mythical conceptions about the origin of the world, and it has its own theological conception of the creation of the Universe (which does not contradict the scientific theory of Evolution). I believe that this is enough for you... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Bosco, I personally would like, those who post urls to make a point or two on occasion as to what strikes them about the news/info found at the links they provide. All postings are not equal or for that matter self-revelatory--as to the interest of the poster. One is not asking for a preface but something on the lines of "I was moved to hear of this" OR "Hey people, this bothers me" Or "Its sad to see the RC going through this" OR "Who gives a damn" Or "Serves you good", and so forth. venantius From: "Bosco D'Mello" > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests > > Barad has posted an article on a subject that was highlighted here a month > ago by > Goanet News: > > > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-February/174186.html > > > What is Barad's misdeed in this instance?? > > - B >
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
> Mario responds: > > To see why Jason Keith came in for opprobrium in graphic > detail see the following post > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175458.html > which you seem to have missed or failed to understand. > > Since you apparently know Jason Keith so well, instead of > making snide comments, why don't you defend his column and > the "smackdown" by his critic, if you dare? Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho This is the most bizarre conversation ever on Goanet. Jason Keith wrote a column about caste in Goa. Rajan Parrikar in his usual style thought it fit to rip into Jason. And now you, who have for years on Goanet hailed yourself as the champion of casteist indignity, "smackdown" on Jason? I can't follow the logic but I leave you to your own devices. Mario responds: Selma, To follow the logic of a verbal exchange it helps to understand the underlying conversation. It's not that hard if you put aside your pet peeves and pre-conceived emotions and focus on the current debate, not some past discussion you may have had with an individual. For example, you were in such haste to denigrate Dr. Barad that you completely missed the contents of the article he posted on the abuse of Catholic Nuns, as well as who was alleging the abuse - it was Catholics, not Barad. You chose to "smackdown" Dr. Barad based on your pre-conceived notion that he is anti-Christian - and ended up with egg all over yourself. Here, see if you can follow this. 1. The column by Jason Keith in the Gomantak Times and his "smackdown" by Rajan Parrikar is in the archives for all to see. http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175458.html My only involvement in this as Goanet's only voice of reason, truth and peace, was to observe Rajan's pawky technique of using another unregulated forum to use fiery language on Goanet that would not pass muster here. 2. Regarding caste, I am not a champion of casteist indignity - I am exactly the opposite - I am an opponent of any delusion by Christians that they belong to some mythical caste. 3. What you are describing as a "smackdown" of Jason by me was a mild pat on the rear end asking why someone like Jason, Marshall or Padre Ivo, all of whom must have seen the report on the abuse of nuns in the Times of India were not outraged enough to post it on Goanet, condemn the findings, excoriate the Cardinal for keeping quiet all these years, and demand that the errant priests be brought to justice and expelled from the Church. We have still not heard from Jason Keith on this, whom you apparently know better than most, or from Padre Ivo, still busy trying to jigger the English language to make up look like down and black look like white and mystical feelings look like science in the Beauregard experiments. We did see a feeble attempt by Marshall to excuse himself by diverting attention to Hindutva and stepping on himself by suggesting that "intra-religious" issues be best left to the religion's adherents, leaving me to wonder if he was a Christian or not. No clarification yet from Marshall as to a) whether he is a Christian, and if so, b) why he avoided this Christian issue after relegating it to only Christians to handle.
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Aires, to be fair to Fr Ivo, it is you who must quote or refer to the "offending" passage of the Bible and then let him either put that passage in context, or let him defend what I am sure you consider the 'indefensible'. There are many interpretations of the Bible. Not everything seems to be what one can discern from the first reading. There is a layman's interpretion, a scholarly interpretation and a believer's interpretation. There is no wrong and no right here, it is what you want to understand. I would be interested to join the discussion once you have pointed out what seems to you the passages that demean women. I sincerely hope you will confine yourself to the New Testatment. That is more relevant to us, rather than the Old Testament which 1) Christ came to improve upon and 2) which you have to understand in a much deeper perspective than the later books of the New. As for Fr Ivo saying the Bible can never be wrong, again I would put the onus on you to tell us which passages are "wrong". Roland Francis http://roland-torontogoan.blogspot.com +1 (416) 453.3371 On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Aires Cabral wrote: > Many priests are chauvinists. It is no surprise that they treat the nuns > like servants . After all there are several passages in the Bible which > demean women, and these are used by these priests to treat women as third > class citiziens ( second class citiziens are lay men).Can Fr Ivo enlighten us > with his comments in the matter. After all he has said in one of his comments > that the Bible is newer wrong! > -- Roland Francis http://roland-torontogoan.blogspot.com +1 (416) 453.3371
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Many priests are chauvinists. It is no surprise that they treat the nuns like servants . After all there are several passages in the Bible which demean women, and these are used by these priests to treat women as third class citiziens ( second class citiziens are lay men).Can Fr Ivo enlighten us with his comments in the matter. After all he has said in one of his comments that the Bible is newer wrong!
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Barad has posted an article on a subject that was highlighted here a month ago by Goanet News: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-February/174186.html What is Barad's misdeed in this instance?? - B
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Sun, 3/22/09, Mario Goveia wrote: > Mario responds: > > To see why Jason Keith came in for opprobrium in graphic > detail see the following post > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175458.html > which you seem to have missed or failed to understand. > > Since you apparently know Jason Keith so well, instead of > making snide comments, why don't you defend his column and > the "smackdown" by his critic, if you dare? --- Mario, This is the most bizarre conversation ever on Goanet. Jason Keith wrote a column about caste in Goa. Rajan Parrikar in his usual style thought it fit to rip into Jason. And now you, who have for years on Goanet hailed yourself as the champion of casteist indignity, "smackdown" on Jason? I can't follow the logic but I leave you to your own devices. Best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Sat, 3/21/09, Mario Goveia wrote: > Why wasn't this posted by one of the vaunted defenders in > India of everything Christian.? Did Marshall not see > this?? Where is Fr. Ivo?? Where is Jason > Keith?? Don't any of our Indian Goans read the Times of > India?? I'd like to know what they have to say for > themselves. Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:53:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho I'm not quite sure why Jason Keith has suddenly come in for a lot of abuse lately on Goanet. If I can't defend Christianity then at least let me defend Jason Keith. I can't recall him ever being a defender of anything that ails the Catholic Church and I assure you Goveia, I know him a little better than you know him. Mario responds: To see why Jason Keith came in for opprobrium in graphic detail see the following post http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175458.html which you seem to have missed or failed to understand. Since you apparently know Jason Keith so well, instead of making snide comments, why don't you defend his column and the "smackdown" by his critic, if you dare? No one said you can't defend Christianity. What I said was that your pretense of defending Christianity was uncharacteristic since you have worked quite hard at making clear to everyone on Goanet that you are an agnostic. What you were actually doing was attacking Dr. Barad, oblivious to the contents of his post, just as you were oblivious to why Jason Keith was being dressed down. Having said that, what you were implicitly defending when you attacked Dr. Barad, was not Christianity but an evil, un-Christian practice by some Catholic priests who have been found - in investigations by the Catholic Church, not some Hindutva group - to be abusing and oppressing Catholic nuns, while a reprehensible Catholic Cardinal was content to do NOTHING until it occurred to him to mention it in his memoirs. Since you seem to be having a hard time grasping what is going on on Goanet, in my post I was wondering why Jason Keith, in addition to Marshall and Padre Ivo, were not the ones who were outraged enough by the contents of the report in the Times of India to have brought it to our attention and led the charge against this abominable situation. If that is an attack on him, he richly deserves it. To see what a REAL attack on him looks like, please see the link in my first paragraph.
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
What a joke! It's like saying in Hindi - Billi chali hazz khake sau chuhe. This replies message No: 3, date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 on above subject. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
The treatment of nuns by priests reflects the world-wide second-class treatment of women (with few exceptions). By and large we still live in a patriarchal, male-dominated world. Look around you and see the treatment of women. Work towards equality starting in your home, your community, your town, etc. George
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Sun, 3/22/09, Dr. U. G. Barad wrote: > Person with jaundice eyes always see everything yellow as > is the case with > you. Check out your own writings to Goanet. > --- My own writings? I am a Christian by baptism. It is incumbent on me to seek reform within Christianity. Criticism from outside the religious membership is welcome and necessary to affect change, but as long as it is done with the proper spirit; to better society as a whole. That unfortunately is not your intent. You have an agenda to provoke and cause communal discord. Selma
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Person with jaundice eyes always see everything yellow as is the case with you. Check out your own writings to Goanet. This replies message No: 2, dated: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 on above subject. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Sat, 3/21/09, Mario Goveia wrote: > Why wasn't this posted by one of the vaunted defenders in > India of everything Christian. Did Marshall not see > this? Where is Fr. Ivo? Where is Jason > Keith? Don't any of our Indian Goans read the Times of > India? I'd like to know what they have to say for > themselves. -- I'm not quite sure why Jason Keith has suddenly come in for a lot of abuse lately on Goanet. If I can't defend Christianity then atleast let me defend Jason Keith. I can't recall him ever being a defender of anything that ails the Catholic Church and I assure you Goveia, I know him a little better than you know him. best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Fri, 3/20/09, Dr. U. G. Barad wrote: > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nuns-treated-like-servants-by-priests-Cardinal/articleshow/4272890.cms > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 00:07:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho Barad, I notice that perpetually you forward articles that show Christianity in a poor light. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much about what ails other religions, I'd concentrate on my own. Frederick Noronha fredericknoronha at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:50:41 PDT 2009 Selma, I think you're misreading things. Dr Barad obviously has a deep (possibly sub-conscious) love for Christianity that he would like to perfect its failings, and make it a better religion/ideology. We should appreciate his efforts and thank him unhesitatingly for all the efforts he puts in! Mario observes: Selma & Fred, Other than verbally kicking a hapless Dr. Barad in the rear end, you may have done a dis-service to Christianity in general and Catholic nuns in particular with your uncharacteristic defense of Christianity. The article was published in India's national newspaper of record, not some hostile blog. Dr. Barad posted the link without comment, for which he is to be commended. He could have gleefully quoted explosive excerpts from the article, as I have done below, but he did not. I'd like to see someone accuse me of being hostile to Christianity! Why wasn't this posted by one of the vaunted defenders in India of everything Christian. Did Marshall not see this? Where is Fr. Ivo? Where is Jason Keith? Don't any of our Indian Goans read the Times of India? I'd like to know what they have to say for themselves. The article in the Times of India was not about what some critic of Christianity had alleged, but what a very senior Catholic Cardinal in a position of leadership had said in addition to what a study by the Catholic Church had found. What they found made me about as sick as when I first heard about the pedophile atrocities. They found a disgraceful, long standing situation, similar in its evil nature to the priestly pedophile atrocities, and it is Christians who must be in the forefront of exposing such atrocities, making sure the culprits are exposed and brought to justice, and the problem fixed once and for all. My question to Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil is, "What the hell were you doing all these years if you knew this was going on? Why do we have to learn about this in a book by one of the victims and a book by YOU, who was in a leadership position and could have exposed this and stopped it! Why was this not reported to Pope Benny - or was it?" I'd sure like to know. Read this excerpt and weep: Early last year, a study by the Catholic church found that 25% of the nuns in Kerala were unhappy with life inside the four walls of a convent. More recently, a former nun dropped a bombshell revealing in a book about sexual abuse and mental harassment she suffered in the order. Now,there's further confirmation of their misery and it comes from the leader of India's archbishops. Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil, who is president of Catholic Bishops Council of India, says the nuns are humiliated by priests and they live in fear. The cardinal's views have appeared in his biography, much like the nun's own. If Sister Jesmi's book was called `Amen! Autobiography of a nun', Vithayathil's book is titled `Straight from the heart'. The cardinal tells his biographer Paul Thelakat, the spokesperson of Syro-Malabar Church, that the time has come to free the nuns from the "pitiable situation'' they are in. "I would say to a great extent our nuns are not emancipated women. They are often kept under submission by the fear of revenge by priests. That's how the priests get away with whatever humiliation they heap upon them. It is a pitiable situation from which somebody has to liberate them,'' says the 82-year-old cardinal. [end of excerpt]
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Selma, I think you're misreading things. Dr Barad obviously has a deep (possibly sub-conscious) love for Christianity that he would like to perfect its failings, and make it a better religion/ideology. We should appreciate his efforts and thank him unhesitatingly for all the efforts he puts in! FN Carvalho wrote: --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Dr. U. G. Barad wrote: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nuns-treated-like-servants-by-priests-Car dinal/articleshow/4272890.cms -- Barad, I notice that perpetually you forward articles that show Christianity in a poor light. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much about what ails other religions, I'd concentrate on my own. Best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
--- On Fri, 3/20/09, Dr. U. G. Barad wrote: > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nuns-treated-like-servants-by-priests-Car > dinal/articleshow/4272890.cms > -- Barad, I notice that perpetually you forward articles that show Christianity in a poor light. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much about what ails other religions, I'd concentrate on my own. Best, Selma
[Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
Cardinal Ananthakrishnan G says: Nuns treated like servants by priests To read more click on the link provided here below: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nuns-treated-like-servants-by-priests-Car dinal/articleshow/4272890.cms Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad
