Re: [Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Frederick Noronha]

For those guilty of not keeping in touch with the nitty-gritties of teh Goa
news, my "bulletproof" comments were a references to this:
https://www.thestatesman.com/cities/goa-finally-get-bullet-proof-vehicles-vip-movement-1502998612.html

Btw, once ran into the then Alliance90/The Greens German foreign
minister Joseph Martin "Joschka" Fischer at a small restaurant in Berlin.
Our German host told him that some South Asian journalists wanted to "meet"
him, and he readily obliged! This was 1998, and the former Leftwing
militant from Stuttgart and Frankfurt-am-Main was a federal minister. The
five-times-married "Catholic but not very religion" was dining out with
lady who seemed to be in her mid-twenties, though he had some security
cover in the form of plainclothesmen, if we got it right. We were less
shocked by his morals and more impressive by his approachability.

In the early 1970s, we were walking around the Old Goa monuments, when my
dad recognised Jack Sequeira (who wouldn't), and we walked up to him and he
exchanged a pleasantry or two with us.

My extreme extroverted dad also jostled his way across the the Indira
Gandhi-slayer (electorally) Raj Narayan, when he was speaking at Calangute
beach, soon after the post-Emergency 1977 elections. Not far from the
Rotunda. This was before the Janata Party ruined their reputation with all
the infighting, but not before infiltrating the government with enough
bigotry to last a lifetime (not that the other politicians didn't have
this). FN
ᐧ

On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 17:41, patrice riemens  wrote:

> Aloha,
>
> Re: no bullet proof car, no security detail ...
>
> It was not different in the Netherlands of my young days. I have
> encountered the then prime minister (Drs Joop den Uyl) a number of times
> and even spoke to him once. On walks in Amsterdam one could also regularly
> come across the president of the central bank (Dr Wim Duysenberg) on the
> 'Blue Bridge'. Politeness in those days commanded one did not acknowledge
> the presence of high ups (known as 'BN's' - 'Bekende (i.e. well-known)
> Nederlanders') unless tere was a good reason.
> And in fact the current prime mister, Mr Rutte, always goes 'to work' on a
> bike - but followed by two inspectors  also on bikes (& probably also an
> unmarked car at some distance for good measure).
>
> Those were the days of insouciance - and less ostentation.
>
> Cheerio, p+2D!
>


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[Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[patrice riemens]

Aloha,

Re: no bullet proof car, no security detail ...

It was not different in the Netherlands of my young days. I have encountered 
the then prime minister (Drs Joop den Uyl) a number of times and even spoke to 
him once. On walks in Amsterdam one could also regularly come across the 
president of the central bank (Dr Wim Duysenberg) on the 'Blue Bridge'. 
Politeness in those days commanded one did not acknowledge the presence of high 
ups (known as 'BN's' - 'Bekende (i.e. well-known) Nederlanders') unless tere 
was a good reason.
And in fact the current prime mister, Mr Rutte, always goes 'to work' on a bike 
- but followed by two inspectors  also on bikes (& probably also an unmarked 
car at some distance for good measure). 

Those were the days of insouciance - and less ostentation.

Cheerio, p+2D!

Re: [Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Mervyn Lobo]

FN,Tanganyika was not a colony. It was administered by the British for the UN 
and the British knew they would have to leave someday. 

I read a lot about anti-colonialism in the local papers in the 1970s but do not 
remember reading any negative article about Turnbull. 

Prior to independence and even a few years later, there used to be charity fund 
raisers held at the State House, Dar. Adults could wander in the grounds and 
kids could go on guided tours inside. 

Nyerere’s home in Dar had just one policeman guarding it while he was 
President. Then he retired. The presidents who had large number of guards, died 
in office. Some of natural causes. 

Mervyn 



On Friday, September 10, 2021, 7:52 AM, Frederick Noronha 
 wrote:

Oh wow! Not even a bulletproof car?
And these were colonial administrators? FN

On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 13:28, Antonio Menezes  wrote:

> I recollect seeing briefly the Governor of Tanganyika Sir Richard Turnbull
> who along with his wife were cycling down the Acacia Avenue
> on bicycles which looked very odd i.e.. with broad tires.
> It was early sunday morning and I was on my way to the St Joseph
> Cathedral for mass . Both Mr and Mrs Turnbull were unaccompanied
> by security guards.

ᐧ

Re: [Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Xavier Cota]

I'm told that Governor General Vassalo Silva used to insist that other
vehicles & passengers be allowed on the ferry-boat he was using at Cortalim
or Panjim.

On Fri, 10 Sep, 2021, 6:22 pm Frederick Noronha, <
fredericknoron...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh wow! Not even a bulletproof car?
> And these were colonial administrators? FN
>
> On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 13:28, Antonio Menezes 
> wrote:
>
> > I recollect seeing briefly the Governor of Tanganyika Sir Richard
> Turnbull
> > who along with his wife were cycling down the Acacia Avenue
> > on bicycles which looked very odd i.e.. with broad tires.
> > It was early sunday morning and I was on my way to the St Joseph
> > Cathedral for mass . Both Mr and Mrs Turnbull were unaccompanied
> > by security guards.
>
> ᐧ
>

[Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Mervyn Maciel]

Antonio Menezes is quite right about spotting Turnbull  on
his early morning rounds in Dar-es-salaam on a bicycle.
That is the way he always operated even when he was
Provinciaal Commissioner of the Northern Frontier Province
in Kenya. He was up very early and, accompanied by his
D.C.(District Commissioner), tour the township just to
check on things - furious if he found litter on the streets
or a Tribal Police not smartly turned out etc. He loved
foot safaris and would often walk miles in the desert
heat just to impress on his D.C.s that he expected the same
of them rather than have them sitting in their comfortable offices!
He was a stickler for perfection and wasn't one to suffer fools
gladly.



Mervyn Maciel

Re: [Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Frederick Noronha]

Oh wow! Not even a bulletproof car?
And these were colonial administrators? FN

On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 13:28, Antonio Menezes  wrote:

> I recollect seeing briefly the Governor of Tanganyika Sir Richard Turnbull
> who along with his wife were cycling down the Acacia Avenue
> on bicycles which looked very odd i.e.. with broad tires.
> It was early sunday morning and I was on my way to the St Joseph
> Cathedral for mass . Both Mr and Mrs Turnbull were unaccompanied
> by security guards.

ᐧ

[Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Antonio Menezes]

I recollect seeing briefly the Governor of Tanganyika Sir Richard Turnbull
who along with his wife were cycling down the Acacia Avenue
on bicycles which looked very odd i.e.. with broad tires.
It was early sunday morning and I was on my way to the St Joseph
Cathedral for mass . Both Mr and Mrs Turnbull were unaccompanied
by security guards.

[Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull

[Mervyn Maciel]

Thanks Mervyn for the photo of my onetime boss nd
the Foreword when he opened your new Clubhouse
in Dar.
Brings back memories as I visited the club when
my family and I were staying with our good friend
(Biz Noronha) at Oyster Bay en route to Zanzibar
where we were  caught up in that bloody revolution!
  Thanks for the memories.

Best wishes.


Mervyn

Re: [Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull/caste system

[Mervyn Lobo]

Tony Barros wrote:
> Mervyn, you wrote about the District Commissioner, now Sir Richard Turnbull. 
> The last Governor of Tanganyika and its first Governor-General was also a Sir 
> Richard Turnbull. Was he the same person ?


For those who missed it the first time, here is what Turnbull had to say when 
he 
opened the Goan Institute in Dar es Salaam. When I re-read his message a few 
minutes
ago, Turnbull seems to suggest that he got his training and learnt his trade 
from Goan 
District Clerks. It is a pity that during the colonial period, only the good 
white
folks could become Governors. 

Here is the document:  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45002663@N00/3126324489/in/set-72157611432171339



> In the other case, the father of the girl told her that if she did not give 
> up the 
> relationship with the boy whom he described as "a wretched of the earth": , 
> he would douse himself with petrol (fuel). To his amazement and on a wider 
> spectrum- shock, the girl ,who was "bent" on  continuing the relationship 
> with 
> the objective of marriage, told him that she would supply him with the fuel.


It is surprising what people only half a generation older than me have 
experienced.
Thankfully, for me, my parents jettisoned caste during the last century. I do 
not have 
the slightest clue if the Goans I grew up with have castes or not. One 
attracted the 
opposite sex by using ones own talents.

Those just a dozen years younger than me, the young and educated, give two hoots
on what their parents think of their choice for a spouse. The parents of such 
people
should be the happiest. After all, every parent wants his adult child to be able
to make life's decisions independently.


2012012Mervyn
PS. The fuel girl is my dream daughter. The only problem is that she was way 
ahead of her time.  
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[Goanet] Sir Richard Turnbull/caste system

[Tony Barros]

Hi Roland, Mervyn n Victor !
 
Roland, thanks for a great review on "Bwana Karani" coming on the heels on Braz 
Menezes' book. Like any
book, Mervyn , you were placed under the "microscope" and goanetters came up 
with some
criticisms.
 
Mervyn, you wrote  about the District Commissioner , now Sir Richard Turnbull. 
The last Governor of Tanganyika
and its first Governor-General was also a Sir Richard Turnbull . Was  he the 
same person ?
 
Although I was in my early teens, I remember the name very well, as Sir Richard 
-  a representative of 
Queen Elisabeth- presented my late father- Boaventura in the late fifties at 
the State House grounds in Dar es Salaam, 
 with the insignia of the Member of the British Empire (MBE) - to quote for his 
"meritorious services to the  government of Tanganyika"
 
Sir Richard was also  responsible- also in the late fifties- for inaugurating 
the new "flashy" building of the Goan Institute 
( later Dar es Salaam Institute) which was designed by the well known goan 
architect - Tony Almeida.(Unlike the Nairobi 
Goan Institute which had a "spring" dance floor to be used strictly for 
ballroom dancing, Tony -who was decorated with the 
prestigious A.R.I.B.A  architect's award by the British- incorporated a sunken 
dance floor - giving the organizers
the option of using it particularly in December when it was extremely warm).
 
I attended the Institute's 50th anniversary in 1969 when I had relocated to Dar 
es Salaam from my birthplace and hometown
 in  Iringa, southern Tanzania and was still in the "throes" of a journalistic 
career. I cannot believe that in seven years time , they
will be celebrating their centenary.
 
And now to the delicate subject of caste, I have no intention of opening a "can 
of worms" by re-igniting the subject, but I have
also voiced my concerns at several other forums, and like Mervyn, had very 
constructive personal exchanges  with the
late Dr. Cornel  D'Costa about experiences related to me in Tanzania,  and what 
I heard and observed during my only trip
in the mid-sixties- to the Nairobi Goan Gymkhana Club   - the great bastion of 
caste in East Africa- at  an Easter Gold Cup
field hockey dance.
 
And Victor and Mervyn, whilst we would wish  to send it to oblivion and bury 
it, we cannot "divorce" ourselves from this
scourge which we ostensibly inherited from the Hindu culture, as  it still 
persists in our society - albeit in very subtle forms.
 
Two   diametrically opposite cases in Tanzania attest to it. In the first case, 
the mother of the boy did not consent to 
his request to get married to his very charming girl-friend. Research I carried 
out found out that whilst her parents had some
"skeletons in their closets", the girl had a perfect "track" record. The boy 
out of respect- succumbed to his mother's wishes
and broke up the relationship. His mother has since passed away and I do not 
know if he is contemplating on re-kindling  the
relationship if the girl is still available.
 
In the other case, the father of the girl told her that if she did not give up 
the relationship with the boy whom he described as
"a wretched of the earth": , he would douse himself with petrol (fuel). To his 
amazement and on a wider spectrum- shock, 
the girl ,who was "bent" on  continuing the relationship with the objective of 
marriage, told him that she would supply him with the fuel.
 
Whilst I know the two parties in the first case, I could not corroborate the 
facts in the second case. 
 
Cheers.
 
Tony Barros.
Union Township,
New Jersey, USA
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