[Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:43:45 -0800 (PST) From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com If I understand Mario's ideological position on this issue correctly it is the following: 1. He does not deny that there is strong scientific evidence for global warming. Mario responds: Santosh's ideological understanding of my common sense position on the issue of climate change and what we can do about it has some accurate observations which he has gleaned from what I have written on the subject over the years. However, his ideology has added some mirchi-masala to many of his observations which therefore need context, clarification, amplification and perhaps even correction, as shown below. His Item 1 is correct if we exclude 1940 to 1980 and 1998 on. During these periods the earth did not warm, even cooled slightly, even though the level of the clear plant food CO2 rose significantly during both periods, from a combination of natural and man-made causes. When environmental extremists speak of HUGE increases in CO2, we need to keep in mind that CO2 is probably at its highest point in recent history right now, and yet is only 0.039% of the earth's atmosphere, and only about one-third, or 0.013%, of it is man-made. Of course, these amounts are so small they are never mentioned. All we hear about are the HUGE increases which is designed to make the situation sound more ominous. Santosh wrote: 2. He does not deny the evidence that there has been a continuous increase in the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, beginning with the onset of the industrial age. Mario responds: Correct. The trace amounts of the clear plant food CO2 have been rising, from a level of about 0.028%, so now we have larger trace amounts of about 0.039%. This is good for plant growth. From the beginning of the industrial age humans have apparently added 0.013% to natural CO2. Just think about what it will take to reverse this. Even shutting down all human activity would not be enough. Thank God the global warming is most likely being caused by the sun and we don't have to shut down all human activity worldwide once we expose the scientific charade. Santosh wrote: 3. He does not deny that Svante Arrhenius showed conclusively that very tiny amounts of carbon dioxide produce a greenhouse effect. Mario responds: This theory by good old Svante Arrhenius says that 0.039% of the earth's atmosphere of a clear gas, CO2, can magically make 100% of the atmosphere act like a greenhouse. BTW, a greenhouse in common parlance is a positive barrier that traps heat in order to grow crops in winter. I think old Svante Arrhenius was pulling our leg:-)) Either that or old Svante failed to observe that summers are warmer than winters and days are warmer than nights and Pluto and Mars are also warming without any humans around to create additional CO2. Why? Eureka! Because of the effects of the sun. QED. I would have to say that if old Svante's comical finding, which has no rational common sense behind it, was conclusive, we would not have had decades long interruptions in the rise in global temperatures. Nor would we have had the serious debate that has been raging among climate scientists, many of whom were seriously warning us of the dangers of global cooling back in the early to mid 1970s even as CO2 levels were rising. Are you getting the picture? Many climate scientists have a far more plausible cause for global warming and cooling than some trace percentage of clear plant food that magically causes the entire atmosphere to trap heat, i.e. the effect of the sun. Santosh wrote: 4. He does not deny that certain changes are occurring in the polar ice caps and in the oceans on the earth. Mario responds: Certain changes are constantly taking place. Whether such drastic changes are due to the 0.74 C rise in global temperatures since 1900 to 1998 sounds more like a joke to me. That's 0.0074 C per year. Not enough to run out and buy that additional air-conditioner yet:-)) Santosh wrote: 5. He does not deny that a majority of climate scientists contend based on theory and physical evidence that the carbon dioxide greenhouse effect is the cause of global warming, and therefore the latter is anthropogenic in nature. Mario responds: I think when a majority of scientists agree on a highly controversial theory that provides inconsistent predictive results but makes it easier for them to get research grants due to the alarm caused, and also has highly questionable political characters, who are known to favor one-world forms of government insisting on serious economic policy prescriptions that turn back the economic clock a century or more and impinge on the national sovereignty of every country in the world, we need to be very careful in insisting that dissenting scientists are wrong than we have been over the last several years. Scurrilous accusations by politicians and even
[Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind
Mario wrote: How do you like this can of worms? Major conflicts of interest stain the science and the scientists and the politicians behind the efforts to control global warming. etc etc Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:46:01 + From: Carmen Miranda carmitamira...@gmail.com I wonder which oil company is paying Mario Goveia to deny climate change and come up with imaginary cans of worms Mario responds: Should anyone engage in such bluster without a single fact at their disposal? Isn't this precisely why Goanet needs my lone voice of reason, truth and shanti? I refuse to accuse her of being on Rajendra Pachauri's payroll like she is scurrilously accusing me of being paid off by some oil companies, but I am left to wonder why Carmen is so strenuously denying Pachauri's unethical conflicts of interest that have now been exposed in a major London newspaper, the same town where she lives: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6847227/Questions-over-business-deals-of-UN-climate-change-guru-Dr-Rajendra-Pachauri.html Shouldn't Carmen be attacking her local newapaper, the Telegraph, for exposing Pachauri's unethical conflicts of interest if she has some special information that the new report is false? Living in London surely Carmen knows that Pachauri's co-conspirator on the environment, Al Gore's phony film, The Inconvenient Truth, inconveniently requires a British High Court imposed warning to school kids in Britain before it can be shown to them so that they know it is as whimsical as a Mickey Mouse movie. Birds of a feather and all that: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2633838.ece Carmen wrote: He must be also living in another planet.here on Earth, we unfortunately are already suffering the effects of climate change caused by global warming. Given Mario's planet is actually coolinghe must be somewhere else in the solar systemand I hope he stays there! Mario responds: The last time I checked, I was living on a planet called America, where we don't much like elites who believe in a one-world government headquartered at the UN where so many of the members are dictators. The most popular speakers at the recent tamasha in Copenhagen were the brilliant economic leaders Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez. If that doesn't tell you something about that event nothing else will. The funniest part of their speeches was when they thrashed capitalism as a failed system, then turned around and demanded that the capitalists pay THEM billions of dollars to clean up their environments:-)) But, how can someone who lives in London be a decade out of date on such important information as the trend in average global temperature? Apparently the latest news hasn't filtered up to the environmental elite in London even as they tell the rest of us peasants that they know what's good for everyone else better than we do. Perhaps this is why the British P.M. and Prince of Wales seem so wilfully uninformed about what is going on in the environment. I have bad news for all of them: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574567423917025400.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular Not knowing what's going on on planet Earth, how would we expect them to know that Pluto and Mars are also warming without a single human, or even an evil American, anywhere to be found:-)) http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming031307.htm Here is an interesting report on the EXPENSIVE - at taxpayer's expense - and ENVIRONMENTALLY DAMAGING tamasha that went on in Copemhagen last week: WARNING: The author, Tim Ball, Ph.D. is a skeptic when it comes to blaming puny humans for climate changes. Chelas of Al Gore and Rajendra Pachauri may be traumatised by his observations and opinions. http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/18148 Excerpt: World leaders participated in a scandalous conference in Copenhagen. Officially it was Conference of the Parties (COP) 15 to monitor progress on climate change begun in 1995 at COP 1 in Berlin. They’ve consistently and blindly accepted the false claim human CO2 is causing climate change. COP 3 produced the Kyoto Accord to punish developed nations and redistribute wealth. It’s due to expire in 2012 and COP 15 was to keep the process going. Few supported it more than Obama so he had to salvage the process. Don’t Confuse Me With Facts World leaders pursued policies while refusing to understand the issue. They ignored all evidence, silenced any debate, and disdained polls showing an increasing majority rejected the science. Finally, they ignored proof the science was deliberately and criminally falsified. [end of excerpt] I would ask Carmen and anyone else to address their responses to the sources of information mentioned in the links above because I have nothing to add to anyone who doesn't know what has been going on in this area.
[Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:13:28 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind climate change Message-ID: 977077.38367...@web80504.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mario wrote: How do you like this can of worms? Major conflicts of interest stain the science and the scientists and the politicians behind the efforts to control global warming. etc etc I wonder which oil company is paying Mario Goveia to deny climate change and come up with imaginary cans of worms He must be also living in another planet.here on Earth, we unfortunately are already suffering the effects of climate change caused by global warming. Given Mario's planet is actually coolinghe must be somewhere else in the solar systemand I hope he stays there! Carmen
Re: [Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind
If I understand Mario's ideological position on this issue correctly it is the following: 1. He does not deny that there is strong scientific evidence for global warming. 2. He does not deny the evidence that there has been a continuous increase in the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, beginning with the onset of the industrial age. 3. He does not deny that Svante Arrhenius showed conclusively that very tiny amounts of carbon dioxide produce a greenhouse effect. 4. He does not deny that certain changes are occurring in the polar ice caps and in the oceans on the earth. 5. He does not deny that a majority of climate scientists contend based on theory and physical evidence that the carbon dioxide greenhouse effect is the cause of global warming, and therefore the latter is anthropogenic in nature. 6. He does not deny that a majority of climate scientists contend that some of the observed environmental effects are due to global warming. 7. What he believes, however, is that: a. There are many politicians and some scientists who deny that global warming is taking place or that it is anthropogenic in nature. b. There are many politicians and some scientists who deny that the observed environmental effects are due to global warming. c. The predicted long-term effects and their impacts are uncertain because they are predictions based on mathematical climate models. c. The actions proposed to be taken to address these uncertain consequences would produce a global economic collapse or some such drastic repercussions for the major world economies, even though these economic predictions are also uncertain because they are predictions based on speculative ideological and economic models. Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Carmen Miranda carmitamira...@gmail.com wrote: Mario wrote: How do you like this can of worms? Major conflicts of interest stain the science and the scientists and the politicians behind the efforts to control global warming. etc etc I wonder which oil company is paying Mario Goveia to deny climate change and come up with imaginary cans of worms He must be also living in another planet.here on Earth, we unfortunately are already suffering the effects of climate change caused by global warming. Given Mario's planet is actually coolinghe must be somewhere else in the solar systemand I hope he stays there! Carmen
Re: [Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind
Carmen, I do not deny that the industrial world has a lot to answer for. But IMHO, the climate-change band-wagon is taking the whole concept the wrong way round - in terms of making money and control, nil to do with maintaining low levels of pollution. It is pollution that we must worry about, not necessarily climate change. And pollution has to do with increasing populations and lop-sided distribution of manufacturing centres, the latter to do with availability of cheap labour and lax controls. Climate change has always existed (hence the ice-ages, warm periods - ask any geologist or palaeontologist), otherwise life wouldn't have been as diverse as it is today. Regards, Gabriel. - Original Message From: Carmen Miranda carmitamira...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Tue, 22 December, 2009 11:46:01 PM Subject: [Goanet] Subject: Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:13:28 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Goveia To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Conflicts of interest - the dirty politics behind climate change Message-ID: 977077.38367...@web80504.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mario wrote: How do you like this can of worms? Major conflicts of interest stain the science and the scientists and the politicians behind the efforts to control global warming. etc etc I wonder which oil company is paying Mario Goveia to deny climate change and come up with imaginary cans of worms He must be also living in another planet.here on Earth, we unfortunately are already suffering the effects of climate change caused by global warming. Given Mario's planet is actually coolinghe must be somewhere else in the solar systemand I hope he stays there! Carmen __ See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/
