Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA [3]- Response to Bosco
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. On Tue Mar 6 22:27:50 PST 2007 Joe Vaz wrote extraneously (as expected) : If you really want my honest response to your irrelevant questions, give it another try, but be civil next time. If your intent is to get me down to your level of aggressiveness, name-calling and abuse, -- you be rest assured I will not oblige. :-) RESPONSE: Joe, honesty and you ?? Geez!! By resorting to counting words and pointing out a single typo in my earlier response, you answered the query I raised in my very first message on this thread. You have absolutely no interest to discuss Education in Goa, but are only participating in this thread to continue your usual self-absorbed elocution. In your convoluted logic of persisting in this discussion, you now feel compelled to point to posts of others on this subject (not thread) to console yourself. For someone who had to resort to a 'drive-by' and who has actively engaged in acerbic debates on Goanet over the years, I'm surprised to see you pleading to be handled with kid-gloves. Did you really miss the civil opportunity I afforded you in my very first post to explain yourself for drawing me into this thread: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-February/054524.html In response to your query, please note my kids will not go to school in Goa as their parents don't live in Goa. They would, if we lived there. Again I'm surprised by your query after you pleaded in your last message not to get personal. I suppose you want it one-way only. Now since you choose to indulge in grandstanding and running around in circles instead of responding to direct questions, and would prefer the safe confines of ambiguity, I will draw my own conclusions in identifying the reasons for your insiduousness in this thread : # 1 - You draw attention to Tony Martin because he said what you wished to say but don't have the mettle for, which is to criticize the DES. # 2 - You started at me because I silenced Gllenda's constant abuse of the Catholic Church in Goa. Something you were happy was happening. # 3 - You would prefer to intimidate me into not contesting your nonsense, just because I'm a member of Goanet Administration. Another form of censoring. # 4 - You would rather demonize than discuss as you have done here over the years. So while you state you don't have the time for frivolous exercises, you certainly are not one to let go of the hegemony of thought. So yes, you are definitely coming back with more nebbish. So keep writingand practice the art that is advanced by comrade Gilbert earlier today. Ohh.to improve your sagacity, I've left some grammatical aberrations in this post for you to unearth. Good luck! - Bosco
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA [3]- Response to Bosco
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. On Fri Mar 2 20:07:13 PST 2007 Bosco D'Mello bospam at canada.com wrote: In breaking with my two-posts per thread tradition, I'm back. To afford you another opportunity to explicitly point out what it is I said ... Hi Bosco: If you really want my honest response to your irrelevant questions, give it another try, but be civil next time. If your intent is to get me down to your level of aggressiveness, name-calling and abuse, -- you be rest assured I will not oblige. :-) BTW just to let you know, I went through your last post of 1557 words. Sadly, I couldnt find anything worthwhile that you tried to share in your post, except the abuse that you so gratuitously hurled at me. I will let you bask in your own glory -- as one who knows all about Goas Education system, and whats good for Goans. You sound more like Goan politicians who advocate an erratic education system saying thats what is good for children in Goa. Isnt whats good for the goose, good for the gander as well? Our elected representatives must learn to practice what they preach, and lead by example. Ask them where their kids do/did their schooling, and you will learn the truth. Nevermind what Tony Martin said about porn. Do kids in Goa own a Playstation or an X-Box among other gizmos? I dont know. Do I need to? But I believe, you missed the recent post on the education subject, by Tony Martins -- Freelance Writer and Author , Galgibaga, Canacona, Goa. If you cared to check the Goanet archives, you would find numerous such posts from other netters, against the current system of primary education in Goa. Do you really go to Goa, like you claimed in an earlier post? Why? Do you have any doubts, or know otherwise? That's a cop-out! Are you really interested in a serious discussion on Education in Goa? I honestly cannot say that my kids are in a better school than any in Goa. Oh, really? Interestingly, you deflected the question, whether you would send your kids to Goa, to prove your professed theory that: education in North America aint any better than in Goa. Isnt that what you are saying in your above statement? I clearly stated There is plenty wrong with primary education systems the world over. Goa is no exception. Two wrongs do NOT make a right - or does it? Another cop-out! There is no need to get defensive. While you may have the aptitude, you lack the ability to DECIDE anything about Education policy in Goa. The only ability you have is to decide which school your child attends. The last government withdrew funding for several schools and there was barely a wimper. Right! wimper (?) No; not even in Hinglish. Earlier Bosco said thus: We are talking about Education here. Not the job market. I don't think the economy and the related job market are part of this thread. And later he said this: So what is it that you are inferring but don't have the conviction nor the gumption to say directly? And how do you know who is paying taxes in India and who is sending money by hawala? Are you are saying that Education and Employment are NOT related, but somehow hawala is? Hawala is an illegal activity, Id think. Are you seriously advocating/introducing the hawala system vs other means of sending money? You may have voting rights; how many times have you voted? Having the right is one thing; exercising it is something else. Now, why would you be so concerned whether I vote(d) or not? Does it really matter to you in North America, on how many times we vote in India? Never mind your rights, which you are unable to exercise. You belie your own purported altruistic intentions by choosing to repeatedly eschew answering a simple question I asked you ? Are you saying you are psychic now? How do you know, I am unable to exercise my rights. Do I really need to reply to your provocative and gratuitous abuse? Cant I exercise my right not to reply to frivolous and irrelevant questions? :) When was primary education in vernacular languages introduced in Goa? NOW? Are the problems being observed NOW?? A decade and a half later?? Or are you waking up NOW because somebody in your family is being directly affected by this policy? Hold your horses, Bosco. Dont get personal about this. Before making false and preposterous accusations, and realizing youve put your foot in your mouth -- why dont you review
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Gilbert, You make some thoughtful and valid points. It is crucial to have a formidable foundation in English education right from inception, so that our youth have an even platform (level-playing field) to learn, compete and ride the wave of prosperity. Essentially, empowerment through education will enhance economic and social standards that contribute towards building a strong and successful society. Although, you are probably aware of what follows, I will write this for the sake of others who may not know. You are absolutely right. Learning must begin at pre-primary level. The childs brain is ready for information intake at birth or even before, while thought process (reasoning and logic) might begin later. Nevertheless, learning begins long before school does. It is therefore essential that parent-child (or human) interaction is prevalent in some form to enable the childs growth mentally; physically and to keep the child healthy. The key factor is human interaction and child care providers, should focus on the childs growth, learning, development and the environment all of which are conducive to a childs optimum advancement. Unfortunately, this does not happen in most under-developed or developing countries, because of poverty or impoverished conditions, where the need to earn a livelihood becomes more pressing than the need to fully focus on the child. This is increasingly true of a single parent trying to balance life between caring for the child and earning a living. As you know, in years yonder, a majority of Goans in Goa had to leave children at home to work in paddy fields or do other manual labor. The privileged, (few exceptions,) were in the minority. Add to this the low literacy levels amongst these hardworking people, which further exacerbated the problem. Since knowledge is traditionally transferred from parent to child, the illiterate (and semiliterate) were significantly disadvantaged and marginalized. This situation worsened when children had to work alongside parents in fields just to make ends meet, leaving no prospects for schooling. In the worse case scenario, the rich exploited the poor and often the Bhatcar (landlord) had the Mundkar (tenant) and including his children work for him i.e. tilling the bhatcars land and doing menial jobs -- for almost free. This exploitation was more pronounced in south Goa than the north, Id believe. The shackles of bondage were broken, basically when Goans began to work on ships; some found employment in the Gulf; some emigrated, others got employed in neighboring states (not necessarily in that order). It is noteworthy, that those that left Goa did not want to come back; the only idea of returning was for a vacation. Tourism then was a trickle. It is heartening to note that gradually the tide began to turn and foreign remittances began to flow into Goa, mainly from the Gulf and those working on ships, and things began to change for the better. Goas economy began to grow and swell to the extent that Goa is now considered the richest state in India (per the wikipedia) and boasts a robust and growing economy. Now, we see literacy levels rising in Goa, and things are changing (albeit slowly) on the education front; God willing we will get there. Some got out of that stranglehold and have excelled, others had the opportunity to leave the shores of Goa and prosper -- mainly because of favorable circumstances and/or opportunities that crossed their paths. Primarily, school performance in Goa is closely tied to language, as in other parts of the country. Currently, there is a visible and wide gap between the language of instruction and spoken language in Goa, which often inhibits learning and leads to apathy within the child toward school work. The medium of instruction Konkani, which is taught in schools, is not the same Konkani as spoken in a majority of the homes, in Goa. The Devanagari script used in schools to teach Konkani, is hardly used outside of the school environment; even the Bible written in Konkani is in Roman script. So, you can imagine the chaos and confusion. In the present situation, we do not have a solid basis for education either in English or Konkani, and the current education delivery system seriously needs changing to English medium. Additionally, there is an acute disparity in the
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA [3]
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Joe, In breaking with my two-posts per thread tradition, I'm back. To afford you another opportunity to explicitly point out what it is I said that lead you to make a string of inferences about things I did not say. But please don't raise your hopes - that people will take your sagacious advice seriously, based on your educational experiences in North America. Get this: If Goans were Eskimos, they would be living in igloos. ;) [Nothing against Eskimos, but don't expect people in Goa to live a lifestyle of the West.] RESPONSE: Get real! What kind of lifestyle are the people living now? What kind of language are you propagating they use as the medium of instruction in schools ? Hinglish? What kind of movies do people watch ? How are food consumption habits and dining patterns changing? What kind of clothes are the youth wearing these days ? What tools are students using while researching on the the internet ? Are youth going to internet cafes for research? Nevermind what Tony Martin said about porn. Do kids in Goa own a Playstation or an X-Box among other gizmos? What is all this - not a knock-off lifestyle of the west?? Do you really go to Goa, like you claimed in an earlier post? Interestingly, you make some perplexing points, based on borrowed advice (hearsay). If Goa's education system is as robust as you (and your western proponents) say, why don't you consider sending your children to Goa for a primary or higher education? RESPONSE: That's a cop-out! Are you really interested in a serious discussion on Education in Goa? I honestly cannot say that my kids are in a better school than any in Goa. Provincial results on standardized tests were announced yesterday for Grades 3 and 6. Not exactly something to crow about for many schools. This will help test your professed theory: that alls well with the education system in Goa. RESPONSE: Would you please point out when I stated the above? When did I say that alls well with the education system in Goa? Now, you are saying that since North America is experiencing high dropout rates, makes it okay for Goa to have phenomenal school dropouts? RESPONSE: I did not espouse the above. But you are welcome to twist what I said. BTW- in the US there are cases where students carry guns and shoot fellow students; so using your above analogy, what advice would you dispense to students in Goa? RESPONSE: School shootings in US / Canadian schools is not an everyday phenomenon. I have no advice for the students in Goa. What I have is advice for people like you who have their heads buried in the sand. Besides violence in schools in Goa (which already exists at different levels - no guns involved yet) there are/will be more 'improper' activities ongoing or ocurring in schools - remember the case of the kids in the Delhi school and the magical cellphone camera and other such vices. All imported from the west? I suppose no bullying goes on in schools in Goa. Still wearing your blinders? Check out how some youth are spending their Sunday afternoons at the internet cafes - you may classify that as indulging in entertainment of the west! Well, couch-potato kids in the west end-up leading unhealthy lives (physically). But your position is that nothing is wrong with Goa's education system. RESPONSE: Again, you choose to misquote me. That's your prerogative. I clearly stated There is plenty wrong with primary education systems the world over. Goa is no exception. Will the North American and UK settled Goans not allow those in Goa the privilege to decide what is best in their interest? RESPONSE: Another cop-out! There is no need to get defensive. While you may have the aptitude, you lack the ability to DECIDE anything about Education policy in Goa. The only ability you have is to decide which school your child attends. The last government withdrew funding for several schools and there was barely a wimper. BTW- Bosco, don't you think that I have the right to project my views based on my first hand experience in Goa, considering that: RESPONSE: Never mind your rights, which you are unable to exercise. You belie your own purported altruistic intentions by choosing to repeatedly eschew answering a simple question I asked you ? Are you really interested in discussing Education in Goa or grandstanding? 1. I studied in Goa, and by virtue of that fact I'm speaking from my
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA [3]
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bosco, Thank you again for your most enlightening post, as expected. But please dont raise your hopes that people will take your sagacious advice seriously, based on your educational experiences in North America. Get this: If Goans were Eskimos, they would be living in igloos. ;) [Nothing against Eskimos, but dont expect people in Goa to live a lifestyle of the West.] Interestingly, you make some perplexing points, based on borrowed advice (hearsay). If Goas education system is as robust as you (and your western proponents) say, why dont you consider sending your children to Goa for a primary or higher education? This will help test your professed theory: that alls well with the education system in Goa. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 02:02:06 -0500 -Bosco D'Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Joe, As expected, you had to take the cop-out!! you came back with a second round of sanctimonius absurdities. Nevertheless I'll indulge you with a response. On Sat Feb 24 10:04:19 PST 2007, Joe Vaz wrote: You say education is a societal issue and how did the society inherit this issue/problem? RESPONSE: Santosh has provided some social (societal) reasons. Sunith Velho has espoused some dramatic reasons. # 2) There is plenty wrong with primary education systems the world over. # 3) Dropout rates in rural areas will always be greater than urban areas the world over. Don't micro-manage Goa, only. Look up statistics for North America; they will mirror the information provided by Santosh (not to that extent). --- Now, you are saying that since North America is experiencing high dropout rates, makes it okay for Goa to have phenomenal school dropouts? Great advice from the west! Any takers in Goa? BTW in the US there are cases where students carry guns and shoot fellow students; so using your above analogy, what advice would you dispense to students in Goa? Goas Education Minister recently made a remarkable move to make amends to the education system, and Goas Archbishop has encouraged the steps in that direction. But your position is that nothing is wrong with Goas education system. Will the North American and UK settled Goans not allow those in Goa the privilege to decide what is best in their interest? BTW Bosco, dont you think that I have the right to project my views based on my first hand experience in Goa, considering that: 1. I studied in Goa, and by virtue of that fact Im speaking from my experience in Goa and its education system. 2. I have worked in Goa (temporarily), and I know the employment situation in Goa, which BTW has not drastically improved since past decades. 3. I have interacted with students in Goa, and to a certain extent helped/help them in enhancing skills, time and opportunity permitting. 4. I have interacted with teachers and parents in Goa, who confirm their students/wards are facing problems in schools more now than ever, with the introduction of primary education that is totally in vernacular language. The fact that private English-medium schools are growing at a phenomenal rate, undoubtedly proves that a BIG majority of parents want their kids to take up primary level studies in English teaching schools, even though it is highly expensive. 5. I am a taxpayer in India, with full voting rights and interest in Goa. Let those who wear the shoe say whether it fits or not. It is always convenient for those who do NOT have a stake in Goas education system to sanctimoniously pontificate what is good or not, for Goa. Best wishes, Joe Vaz Feb 27, 2007 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. Aristotle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _ Gossips, movie reviews, photogallery and more http://content.msn.co.in/Entertainment/Default
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bosco, first off thanks for listening to the homily; I thought that yours was even more interesting. :) I agree, many Goans are doing (or have done) extremely well for themselves in many parts of the world wherever they work or have settled. But now we are talking about primary education in Goa. IF our current education system is solid (assuming that we have a very good primary education system) -- which is the foundation for a better secondary and higher education, -- then why are we seeing the phenomenal number of dropouts? Can you explain? You say education is a societal issue and how did the society inherit this issue/problem? I hope you are in a better position and vantage point in speaking for the Goan community on issues like primary education in Goa than most of us. For your sake, I hope the whole of the Goan community (in Goa) would agree: (1) that our Goan kani/kaneos dont wash, (2) that there is nothing wrong with Goas current primary education system; (3) that the statistics on dropout rates reported (in the link below) are wrong and, (4) that the teachers who teach in Goa and claim the current education system is hurting our children, are all wrong? I have seen the problem first hand in Goa. I know what it is like -- to be a victim of an education system that is often chaotic and confusing. Studying Konkani in the formative years and then suddenly being forced to learn the major subjects in the English often becomes a difficult and daunting barrier. I was fortunate to learn my mother tongue Konkani at my mothers knee. I love my mother tongue very dearly, and will not trade it for any language in the world. Yet, will the world at large recognize my language (Konkani) when it comes to offering me a job, based on the proficiency of my own language? No, not even my Goa state will provide me a well paying job if I am not proficient in the English. So where do I go? How am I to survive? It is good that you had (or availed) the opportunity to emigrate and make a fortune for yourself, just like the few others you speak of. I am truly happy for you and wish you the very best. I am happy myself. I had to leave the shores of Goa in order to increase my prospects for a better education and land with a comparatively decent job to support my family and also contribute to my homeland Goa. In a recent conversation with a Canadian born friend (whose parents migrated from India) observed that many of our Indian engineers lack the English communication and presentation skills, which is a major obstacle for their advancement. I fully agree with him. We want our children not merely to have a good education but also to acquire the best communication skills, -- the lack of both is abundantly evident in Goa. Every year during my trip/s to Goa, I set aside time to teach young boys and girls computer and language skills. I think it is time well spent and a worthwhile investment. Often, I am saddened that a majority of our Goan youth is not well equipped to meet the harsher challenges in the outside world. It is sad that they struggle to produce a reasonably well written job application in English. No wonder they are forced to settle for low paid jobs. As an individual, someone who is not saddled with the above situation can readily dismiss the current education system as a non-issue. However, when we look at it collectively as a community, we can see the real problem and its repercussions on the larger sections of the society, and therefore as a bigger and haunting issue. So, please dont pick a few people and make examples of them. Surely, the few do NOT represent the many. Now, make no mistake -- I am NOT against the Catholic Schools and what they teach and stand for. In fact I am a product of Catholic institutions and the diligence and dedication of some the most brilliant and admirable teachers I have known. The schools in Goa are rather forced to impart education the way they do now, or else they will be denied Government grants. It is not that teachers are not doing their best, rather it is our Goa Government that is deliberately pursuing a flawed and erratic education system. Even the infamous Bal Thakery of Mumbai, who was against the English language, realized his folly and later emphasized the importance of the English language. He even called upon his sons to take up English lessons as the language was becoming increasingly vital with the advent of
Re: [Goanet] EDUCATION IN GOA
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue Feb 20 01:15:55 PST 2007, Joe Vaz wrote: Surely, Bosco would have a different perception of the situation if he were living (and studying/studied) in Goa these past years. After all, it is always one's point of view depending on the place, perspective and plateau from where one speaks. However, on examining the scenario locally in Goa, one would painfully paint a different and dreadful picture. Let's not kid ourselves. Wouldn't it be wiser for people to speak from statistics, rather than from solitary case(s) or based on pure assumptions? In fact, the (primary) education in Goa has degenerated to a shocking level - largely contributing to the rapid and alarming 'dropout' rate of students. Our erratic education system in Goa is taking a catastrophic toll on our children's education and adversely impacting their future. Thanks, to cheerleaders who think and advocate otherwise. RESPONSE: Hi Joe. Thanks for the homily. I say homily because it was/is not a discussion, as yet. Now before I respond to your grandstanding, would you kindly point out what it is that I said that led you to speculate on my perceptions and plateaus. I'll be glad to make a point or two on education in Goa. But first, please be specific and tell us what it is I said that piqued your interest. Thank you. And while I have your attention, where have you been these past 8 weeks with Gllenda marauding the Catholic church. You and Gilbert have been the vanguard of Catholicism on Goanet (no sarcasm intended or implied) for years now. Mario only lately for ideological purposes. It has been left to Selma (agnostic), Bonefacio (gentleman) and me (cafeteria catholic) to try and tame the bull in the china-shop. Pray tell me, does your silence mean you concur with her disparaging comments on Catholicism in general and the Catholic Church in Goa? - Bosco
