Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Nov 23, 2011 12:30 PM, "Gour" wrote: > > How are you satisfied with the look of GTK+ on Windows? > > Sometimes I hear there are not many devs working on Windows port. > Was good enough for my purposes. And quite a few of my non geek friends use Gimp on Windows and I've heard no complaints. ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:49:47 -0700 Michael Torrie wrote: > You'll want to ask the wx developers about that. They have their own > mailing lists and forums I'm sure. OK. I've asked... > Not sure what you mean about a statically compiled language. My mistake...I wanted to say: statically typed language in comparison with dynamic ones like Python. > I've only developed for Linux and Windows though. How are you satisfied with the look of GTK+ on Windows? Sometimes I hear there are not many devs working on Windows port. Sincerely, Gour -- As a strong wind sweeps away a boat on the water, even one of the roaming senses on which the mind focuses can carry away a man's intelligence. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Nov 23, 2011 1:12 AM, "Gour" wrote: > Does wxWidgets do more in regard to the 'behaviour's mentioned above? > You'll want to ask the wx developers about that. They have their own mailing lists and forums I'm sure. > I'd like to avoid pointer debugging and have statically compiled > language. Not sure what you mean about a statically compiled language. In any case take a look at gtkmm sample code before casting judgement here. I think you'll find that template based automatic reference counting makes things really nice. And when used properly c++'s guaranteed destruction pointer problems are really not a major part of debugging. Anyway. I've enjoyed using gtk with c c++ and python. I've only developed for Linux and Windows though. ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:08:47 -0700 Michael Torrie wrote: > I've used it and it's as close to native as you can get without > actually using Cocoa and Objective C. I am sure Qt experts on the Qt > forums and mailing lists can answer your questions better than anyone > on this list. And it's not as alien as Lothar makes it out to be. If > you program in behaviors correctly and make your app function as a > Mac user expects, end users (average users) will not be able to tell > it's a Qt app. Thank you. I'm told that one part of the specs is that app should look good on Mac OS X, but not having one is difficult to understand how each toolkit fulfills it. > Absolutely not. wxWidgets is good, but Qt is much more advanced than > wxWidgets from a programmer's point of view. Does wxWidgets do more in regard to the 'behaviour's mentioned above? > Whether you use GTK or Qt, I see no reason to avoid C++. I can > understand reluctance to build in C (there is Vala of course). Python > is a good choice. I'd like to avoid pointer debugging and have statically compiled language. > If you do want to build a project that is open source and actually > could have some community behind it, D is probably not the best > language to pick. Heh, that may be true today, but let's hope it will be better tomorrow. Sincerely, Gour -- The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna, that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On 11/21/2011 03:24 AM, Gour wrote: > Hmm...what would you say then about Qt on Mac? I've used it and it's as close to native as you can get without actually using Cocoa and Objective C. I am sure Qt experts on the Qt forums and mailing lists can answer your questions better than anyone on this list. And it's not as alien as Lothar makes it out to be. If you program in behaviors correctly and make your app function as a Mac user expects, end users (average users) will not be able to tell it's a Qt app. The behavior thing applies to GTK too. Mac apps follow certain conventions and you need to make sure you adapt to them. One item is dialog box button order (which GTK automatically does). Other conventions include the behavior of a text box when you click on it (should select the text, place the cursor at the end), or how the dialog box does a default action when you press ENTER. > Do you consider wxWdgets better option for Mac than Qt? Absolutely not. wxWidgets is good, but Qt is much more advanced than wxWidgets from a programmer's point of view. Whether you use GTK or Qt, I see no reason to avoid C++. I can understand reluctance to build in C (there is Vala of course). Python is a good choice. If you do want to build a project that is open source and actually could have some community behind it, D is probably not the best language to pick. ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 02:14:47AM +0700, Lothar Scholz wrote: > The only ways are Take it elsewhere. And with that I mean, you've been removed from the list. The topic is gtk, not wxWidgets or a counseling group for people needing to express their issues. -- Regards, Olav (moderator) ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Lothar Scholz wrote: > If they adapt the look and feel and functions of MacOSX GUI's they > are. The menu on top, native file selection, standard toolbar, > file icons, dialog modal sheets instead of application modal, > aqua look in dialogs... using things like the tool window handling > MS VS style vs GDL vs a non existing sidebar only feature on Mac. menu on top: yes native file selection: mixed story standard toolbar: no idea what you think this means file icons: mixed story dialog modal sheets: rarely aqua look in dialogs: common but not universal but then again, lets look at logic and final cut pro, apple's two flagship "pro apps": menu on top: yes native file selection: yes standard toolbar: no such concept file icons: yes dialog modal sheets: rarely aqua look in dialogs: common but not universal hmm. why i am getting confused? now lets look at gtk apps: menu on top: yes native file selection: no standard toolbar: no idea what this means file icons: no dialog modal sheets: no aqua look in dialogs: available if the developer wants it wow. now i'm even more confused. and guess what, i think you're even more confused than me! > Icon sizes, tree display views, keyboard handling, gtk does all these. cocoa has more than 3 ways of doing tree display views, so its hardly something to point to. > menu handling > (menus have submenus in Windows, but need a configuration dialog on > MacOSX)... sorry, thanks for playing, this is not true. there some mumbling in the apple HiG about it but its certainly not enforced by Cocoa. > Look at http://versionsapp.com/ and ask yourself if you can doubt a > single second that this looks native and then tell me this is not a > business advantage (whatever your business modell is for open source > or closed source). Here's the best selling, 800lb gorilla of pro-audio, ProTools, on OS X, across several versions: http://www.editorsguild.com/v2/magazine/Newsletter/MarApr04/MarApr04_images/osx_protools_fig2.jpg http://www.kollewin.com/EX/09-16-04/digidesign_protools_7.1le.jpg http://rekkerd.org/img/articles/digidesign_pt8.jpg and ask yourself if you can tell that this is a native Mac app, and then ask yourself whether or not its a business advantage (regardless of your target market). Here's the most popular current pro-audio/music creation app in the world: http://www.beantownboogiedown.com/storage/ableton_live_arrange.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=4673405 Yep, this small, incredibly successful company that today dominates the laptops of electronic musicians and even DJs all across the world certainly suffered from their disastrous decision not to use Cocoa! > I agree that Application for productive purposes, this means > applications that you use permanent 6 hours in your 8 hours working > day, like IDEs, CAD systems, Professional Video systems and maybe > Audio are different - there infact the Apple GUI guidelines are a pain > in the ass. and yet you have no idea what market segment Gour was asking about and you just pontificate about stuff regardless. > I'm to lazy to look it up, but they are marked as deprecated in the > documentation, that is how i found out and what is relevant for me. you don't have to look it up, because i already did. you're wrong, its not clearly marked as deprecated - there are conflicting "official" apple documents that say different things. in december of 2010, someone from within apple publically said that its future was still under discussion, so you're just spreading FUD. it might turn out to be true, and i don't necessarily disagree of your assessment of why apple might take this route. but as of right now, what you're saying is not true. > PD> This is utterly laughable. If you knew anything about the way that > PD> time, audio and video are handled on OS X, Windows and Linux, you > PD> couldn't possibly make this comment. > > I'm not doing multimedia, and i know what a problem linux is or maybe > was in the past with everthing realtime based. you're digging yourself deeper into a hole with your ignorant ramblings about stuff that you admit you don't know anything about. > So you can have the same applications at the same quality on all > platforms or at least very soon. blah blah blah ... in which lothar subjects us to his devastatingly well-informed, crystal-ball clear vision of the future, in which only GUI toolkits that use native widgets can possibly play a role in developing long-lived applications. wow, its good to finally get it straight, live and direct from the future. thanks for clearing up the future of software development for us Lothar. it was all so unclear before you came along ... > Again for a new developed application today that > will live something like for 20 years you should think twice. oh wait, what was that? the time machine from 1991 called and said that Lothar was recommending that Carbon was the only viable technology for developing long lived applicati
RES: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello everyone, It's the first message I write to this list and before I say anything, I would like to apologize if my message is too off topic. If that happens, please tell me and I won't write about it again. However, as I saw the discussion about GTK+ and applications on App Store, I became very interested. I really like Gtk+ and its related libraries, mainly glib. Although I use it to write open source software, I like so much its design (I am free to do things the way I think it's better and I can use any language I want) and I like the idea of using Gtk+ to write commercial applications too. That's why I became so excited when I first saw these links: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2112469/ubuntu-doors-app-store-development-centre http://developer.ubuntu.com/ It seems Canonical, the enterprise responsible for Ubuntu support, is creating an application store similar to Steam, Apple Store, Android Market, Windows Market Place and several others. I liked it a lot, because I could write commercial applications using the same libs I use when I write free software, joining (in my opinion) the best of the two worlds. I hope someone releases some official linux distro for tablets someday, I would like to have in tablets world the same freedom I have to choose the operating system I want to run, as I have in my PC. So I started to have ideas about it, and here it's my doubt: would it be possible (an viable) to write an application in Gtk+, focusing on this Ubuntu Store, but being able to deploy the same application to other stores like apple and android? As Gtk+ is *extremely* portable and runs already on a variety of systems, I like the idea of creating a wrapper to cocoa touch (Apple) and Google NDK. I think it wouldn't be so hard to do, as there is already a windows port... I am guessing some basic functions would need to be ported to use these native SDKs to create each port... My second doubt is if would be something too hard to do. If it's something a mere mortal Gtk+ user like me is able to do without studying Gtk code for two years, I may be willing to contribute, if desirable... Regards, Marcelo Valle. -Mensagem original- De: gtk-list-boun...@gnome.org [mailto:gtk-list-boun...@gnome.org] Em nome de Gour Enviada em: segunda-feira, 21 de novembro de 2011 11:17 Para: gtk-list@gnome.org Assunto: Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:53:21 -0500 Paul Davis wrote: > I have no doubt that any App Store for OS X will become hugely > important. But that doesn't mean it will be only way people install > apps. Apple took some very smart steps to make installation extremely > easy because of their "bundle" implementation, so there is really no > equivalent required to the kind of install wizard that dominated > windows for so long. You just fetch a DMG (or even a .bz2) in the > browser, it unpacks in the browser, the user puts it somewhere. Done. Thank you for it...I'm really ignorant how does installing apps work on Mac OS X. > WxWidgets has some distinct advantages, and some very distinct > disadvantages. Which ones are more important depends a lot on the > needs of the application. Would you mind to explore some of them for the benefit of user(s) needing to decide about the right toolkit? Sincerely, Gour -- A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego — he alone can attain real peace. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 Esta mensagem, incluindo seus eventuais anexos, pode conter informações confidenciais, de uso restrito e/ou legalmente protegidas. Se você recebeu esta mensagem por engano, não deve usar, copiar, divulgar, distribuir ou tomar qualquer atitude com base nestas informações. Solicitamos que você elimine a mensagem imediatamente de seu sistema e avise-nos, enviando uma mensagem diretamente para o remetente e para postmas...@claro.com.br. Todas as opiniões, conclusões ou informações contidas nesta mensagem somente serão consideradas como provenientes da Claro ou de suas subsidiárias quando efetivamente confirmadas, formalmente, por um de seus representantes legais, devidamente autorizados para tanto. -- Este mensaje, incluyendo sus eventuales archivos adjuntos, puede contener informaciones confidenciales, de uso restringido y/o legalmente protegidas. Si usted ha recibido este mensaje por error, no debe utilizar, copiar, divulgar,
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello Paul, PD> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Lothar Scholz wrote: >> Come on and stop talking bullshit. You now exactly that this is not >> true. A 1st class citizen toolkit has to use the Cocoa widgets and >> this will never happen for GTK. PD> you have some very specific definition of "1st class citizen". PD> the pro-audio application world is dominated by applications that do PD> NOT use apple toolkits for their GUIs. other than Logic, which apple PD> owns, most of them create a single GL area (some actually just use PD> NSView), and then use their own toolkit (or one they've licensed from PD> a 3rd party) to do the drawing. this includes protools, live, digital PD> performer and more. so are these apps not "1st class citizens"? the PD> thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of creative PD> professional and amateur users of them would be suprised to hear this. If they adapt the look and feel and functions of MacOSX GUI's they are. The menu on top, native file selection, standard toolbar, file icons, dialog modal sheets instead of application modal, aqua look in dialogs... using things like the tool window handling MS VS style vs GDL vs a non existing sidebar only feature on Mac. Icon sizes, tree display views, keyboard handling, menu handling (menus have submenus in Windows, but need a configuration dialog on MacOSX)... Look at http://versionsapp.com/ and ask yourself if you can doubt a single second that this looks native and then tell me this is not a business advantage (whatever your business modell is for open source or closed source). I agree that Application for productive purposes, this means applications that you use permanent 6 hours in your 8 hours working day, like IDEs, CAD systems, Professional Video systems and maybe Audio are different - there infact the Apple GUI guidelines are a pain in the ass. >> NSWindow. And remember that since 10.5 most Apperance Manager >> functions are declared obsolete (by the way the same this is also true >> for Vista/Windows7). PD> actually, this is not the case. apple have not issued a clear PD> statement on the future of a significant part of the HI* library that PD> remains non-Carbon. As of late last year, they told people at a PD> developer conference that its future was not decided. I'm to lazy to look it up, but they are marked as deprecated in the documentation, that is how i found out and what is relevant for me. >>The new business model is to lock the people >> into their look and feel because on the technical level the OS systems >> are almost the same. PD> This is utterly laughable. If you knew anything about the way that PD> time, audio and video are handled on OS X, Windows and Linux, you PD> couldn't possibly make this comment. I'm not doing multimedia, and i know what a problem linux is or maybe was in the past with everthing realtime based. But they all are with more or less work on the programmer side useable. Nobody cares what a pain in the ass it was to develop the application on one platform. For customers only the end result counts. So you can have the same applications at the same quality on all platforms or at least very soon. Then what obvious strategy do you think OS venders can go to sell there desktop operating system in the future. And this will not primarily be based on technology but useability, corporate identity and simply vendor lock-in (perfect example is Apple). >> And for any commerical application you will see that soon there is no >> way to use GTK+ anymore on this systems. Apples App Store will became >> so important that you have to obey the rules that you must use the PD> I have no doubt that any App Store for OS X will become hugely PD> important. But that doesn't mean it will be only way people install PD> apps. Apple took some very smart steps to make installation extremely PD> easy because of their "bundle" implementation, so there is really no PD> equivalent required to the kind of install wizard that dominated PD> windows for so long. You just fetch a DMG (or even a .bz2) in the PD> browser, it unpacks in the browser, the user puts it somewhere. Done. PD> Or is that just too geeky for you? First Apple is a Nazi company. They dictate everything for the user and if they say they will only allow certified applications to access something and this certification requires for example App Shops then i would predict that bundles became less interesting for forbidden. Apple will do everything on user bondage to increase their profits. Second even if it is, again depending on your application. But the 90% of programs that make up the ISV market are more casual applications their the most important thing is to find the application. And therefore to be successful you will have to use the App Stores or most customers will only see your competitiors. It's a must. Again for a new developed application today that will live something like for 20 years you should think twice. And why th
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:53:21 -0500 Paul Davis wrote: > I have no doubt that any App Store for OS X will become hugely > important. But that doesn't mean it will be only way people install > apps. Apple took some very smart steps to make installation extremely > easy because of their "bundle" implementation, so there is really no > equivalent required to the kind of install wizard that dominated > windows for so long. You just fetch a DMG (or even a .bz2) in the > browser, it unpacks in the browser, the user puts it somewhere. Done. Thank you for it...I'm really ignorant how does installing apps work on Mac OS X. > WxWidgets has some distinct advantages, and some very distinct > disadvantages. Which ones are more important depends a lot on the > needs of the application. Would you mind to explore some of them for the benefit of user(s) needing to decide about the right toolkit? Sincerely, Gour -- A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego — he alone can attain real peace. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:36:16 +0700 Lothar Scholz wrote: Hello Lothar, > This doesn't mean much for the App Stores, question is will you need > an easy end user distribution. That's a good point. Yes, we'd like to provide easily installable apps for Mac & Windows users (probably using cmake to help with installers/packages). > It's better but suffers from the same problems of not being native. > But still looks very alien for MacOSX users. I see...Not having Mac OS X users it's hard to imagine. > Definitely, they are wrapping Cocoa native widgets. Reason why i > haven't used it was that i found the wxWidgets layer to heavy and to > old. Waiting for 3 years to release the better 3.x brand. And they > are very slow picking up new features because of this heavy layer. Do you consider that 3.x will be good-enough improvement? > Well so i assume you don't take a loan of $100,000 like i have done to > develop software. In this case there isn't really a risk anyway. Right. > It's a community project. But at least it is useable at the moment. I > never ever trust again that this will soon be stable. Really? > Thats why i more optimistic about the native toolkits that are > maintained by MS and Apple. I understand your point, but I believe it should be possible to find open-source toolkit to write open-source app. Sincerely, Gour -- One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Lothar Scholz wrote: > Come on and stop talking bullshit. You now exactly that this is not > true. A 1st class citizen toolkit has to use the Cocoa widgets and > this will never happen for GTK. you have some very specific definition of "1st class citizen". the pro-audio application world is dominated by applications that do NOT use apple toolkits for their GUIs. other than Logic, which apple owns, most of them create a single GL area (some actually just use NSView), and then use their own toolkit (or one they've licensed from a 3rd party) to do the drawing. this includes protools, live, digital performer and more. so are these apps not "1st class citizens"? the thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of creative professional and amateur users of them would be suprised to hear this. > NSWindow. And remember that since 10.5 most Apperance Manager > functions are declared obsolete (by the way the same this is also true > for Vista/Windows7). actually, this is not the case. apple have not issued a clear statement on the future of a significant part of the HI* library that remains non-Carbon. As of late last year, they told people at a developer conference that its future was not decided. >The new business model is to lock the people > into their look and feel because on the technical level the OS systems > are almost the same. This is utterly laughable. If you knew anything about the way that time, audio and video are handled on OS X, Windows and Linux, you couldn't possibly make this comment. > And for any commerical application you will see that soon there is no > way to use GTK+ anymore on this systems. Apples App Store will became > so important that you have to obey the rules that you must use the I have no doubt that any App Store for OS X will become hugely important. But that doesn't mean it will be only way people install apps. Apple took some very smart steps to make installation extremely easy because of their "bundle" implementation, so there is really no equivalent required to the kind of install wizard that dominated windows for so long. You just fetch a DMG (or even a .bz2) in the browser, it unpacks in the browser, the user puts it somewhere. Done. Or is that just too geeky for you? > It very much depends on your competition, customer base and > application domain. But it's stupid from a business/money making point > to use GTK+ on anything else then Linux. And no i don't count Pauls > donation ware project as GTK. WTF? So what do you think it is then? > So for Gour i stay with my advise to use WxWidget and select a WxWidgets has some distinct advantages, and some very distinct disadvantages. Which ones are more important depends a lot on the needs of the application. ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello Gour, Monday, November 21, 2011, 5:24:09 PM, you wrote: G> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:34:14 +0700 G> Lothar Scholz wrote: >> And for any commerical application you will see that soon there is no >> way to use GTK+ anymore on this systems. Apples App Store will became >> so important that you have to obey the rules that you must use the >> Cocoa toolkit and on Windows8 we see the same with Metro. No metro no >> app store. When you only target geeks then it might be ok, they can >> use fink and unix tools and don't worry about the GUI output. G> In our case, we plan to write open-source app. This doesn't mean much for the App Stores, question is will you need an easy end user distribution. >> It very much depends on your competition, customer base and >> application domain. But it's stupid from a business/money making point >> to use GTK+ on anything else then Linux. G> Hmm...what would you say then about Qt on Mac? It's better but suffers from the same problems of not being native. But still looks very alien for MacOSX users. >> So for Gour i stay with my advise to use WxWidget and select a >> programming language that has a good binding. WxWidgets is using GTK >> by the way in it's most stable Unix port. G> Do you consider wxWdgets better option for Mac than Qt? Definitely, they are wrapping Cocoa native widgets. Reason why i haven't used it was that i found the wxWidgets layer to heavy and to old. Waiting for 3 years to release the better 3.x brand. And they are very slow picking up new features because of this heavy layer. >> And did your boss really approve to use an experiemental language like >> D - he's brave! G> Considering it's open-source application, he is more like 'mentor' than G> 'boss'. :-) Well so i assume you don't take a loan of $100,000 like i have done to develop software. In this case there isn't really a risk anyway. >> I learned it the hard way to not put my trust into community projects >> like this. Use a WxWidget/Script-Language/C/C++ combination. G> We would like to stay away from C(++). Otoh, wxwidgets is also community G> project, isn't it? It's a community project. But at least it is useable at the moment. I never ever trust again that this will soon be stable. Thats why i more optimistic about the native toolkits that are maintained by MS and Apple. -- Best regards, Lotharmailto:llot...@web.de ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Le 21/11/2011 10:34, Lothar Scholz a écrit : A better example would be WingIDE for Python which is GTK based - but programmers are geeks by definition. They are converting their code to Qt :'( -- Yann ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:34:14 +0700 Lothar Scholz wrote: > And for any commerical application you will see that soon there is no > way to use GTK+ anymore on this systems. Apples App Store will became > so important that you have to obey the rules that you must use the > Cocoa toolkit and on Windows8 we see the same with Metro. No metro no > app store. When you only target geeks then it might be ok, they can > use fink and unix tools and don't worry about the GUI output. In our case, we plan to write open-source app. > It very much depends on your competition, customer base and > application domain. But it's stupid from a business/money making point > to use GTK+ on anything else then Linux. Hmm...what would you say then about Qt on Mac? > So for Gour i stay with my advise to use WxWidget and select a > programming language that has a good binding. WxWidgets is using GTK > by the way in it's most stable Unix port. Do you consider wxWdgets better option for Mac than Qt? > And did your boss really approve to use an experiemental language like > D - he's brave! Considering it's open-source application, he is more like 'mentor' than 'boss'. :-) > I learned it the hard way to not put my trust into community projects > like this. Use a WxWidget/Script-Language/C/C++ combination. We would like to stay away from C(++). Otoh, wxwidgets is also community project, isn't it? Sincerely, Gour -- As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello Michael, Monday, November 21, 2011, 3:18:24 PM, you wrote: MN> On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 09:05 +0100, Gour wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:40:32 +0100 >> Michael Natterer wrote: >> >> > Because Paul knows what he is talking about. >> >> :-) >> >> > GTK+ on the Mac is not perfect, but these days it's getting better >> > every week. >> >> So, it means that soon/in_th_future GTK+ will become 1st class citizen >> on Mac? MN> That's our intention. I have for example GIMP running on native MN> GTK+ and I don't see much remaining real bugs, only cosmetics. Come on and stop talking bullshit. You now exactly that this is not true. A 1st class citizen toolkit has to use the Cocoa widgets and this will never happen for GTK. All you do is using NSView and NSWindow. And remember that since 10.5 most Apperance Manager functions are declared obsolete (by the way the same this is also true for Vista/Windows7). The new business model is to lock the people into their look and feel because on the technical level the OS systems are almost the same. MacOSX is perfect with it, Windows8/Metro is trying to do the same. And for any commerical application you will see that soon there is no way to use GTK+ anymore on this systems. Apples App Store will became so important that you have to obey the rules that you must use the Cocoa toolkit and on Windows8 we see the same with Metro. No metro no app store. When you only target geeks then it might be ok, they can use fink and unix tools and don't worry about the GUI output. It very much depends on your competition, customer base and application domain. But it's stupid from a business/money making point to use GTK+ on anything else then Linux. And no i don't count Pauls donation ware project as GTK. A better example would be WingIDE for Python which is GTK based - but programmers are geeks by definition. So for Gour i stay with my advise to use WxWidget and select a programming language that has a good binding. WxWidgets is using GTK by the way in it's most stable Unix port. And did your boss really approve to use an experiemental language like D - he's brave! I learned it the hard way to not put my trust into community projects like this. Use a WxWidget/Script-Language/C/C++ combination. -- Best regards, Lotharmailto:llot...@web.de ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:18:24 +0100 Michael Natterer wrote: > That's our intention. I have for example GIMP running on native > GTK+ and I don't see much remaining real bugs, only cosmetics. Cool, cool. This makes me enthusiastic to embrace gtkD. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 09:05 +0100, Gour wrote: > On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:40:32 +0100 > Michael Natterer wrote: > > > Because Paul knows what he is talking about. > > :-) > > > GTK+ on the Mac is not perfect, but these days it's getting better > > every week. > > So, it means that soon/in_th_future GTK+ will become 1st class citizen > on Mac? That's our intention. I have for example GIMP running on native GTK+ and I don't see much remaining real bugs, only cosmetics. Regards, --mitch ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:40:32 +0100 Michael Natterer wrote: > Because Paul knows what he is talking about. :-) > GTK+ on the Mac is not perfect, but these days it's getting better > every week. So, it means that soon/in_th_future GTK+ will become 1st class citizen on Mac? Sincerely, Gour -- What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 -- When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:40:32 +0100 mitch wrote:
> The tone of Lothar's mail borders outright FUD.
Lothar is one of those people who, for whatever reason, is incapable of
posting any comment not phrased as "${LIST_SUBJECT} is rubbish/run by
idiots/a waste of space". I expect it probably masks useful knowledge he
imparts, but frankly I got so fed up with it I rarely read what he
writes, so I wouldn't know.
Regards,
Rob
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Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 20:23 +0100, Gour wrote: > On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:14:47 +0700 > Lothar Scholz wrote: > > Hiya Lothar, > > > Is it really? I'm watching it for 5 years now at it is always in > > terrible broken state. Definitely a no for me. > > Well, I'm optimistic (by nature)... :-) > > > Forget it. Neither you nor any customer of you will get happy with > > GTK+ on MacOSX. > > Huh, yor message bears different color than Paul's. Because Paul knows what he is talking about. GTK+ on the Mac is not perfect, but these days it's getting better every week. The tone of Lothar's mail borders outright FUD. regards, --mitch ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:14:47 +0700 Lothar Scholz wrote: Hiya Lothar, > Is it really? I'm watching it for 5 years now at it is always in > terrible broken state. Definitely a no for me. Well, I'm optimistic (by nature)... :-) > Forget it. Neither you nor any customer of you will get happy with > GTK+ on MacOSX. Huh, yor message bears different color than Paul's. > The only ways are > 1) WxWidgets wxD is not very developed. > 2) Maintain two GUI's. Write a small abstraction layer for your > required widget functionality and then put the window creation stuff > (which is the most toolkit specific) into a different module for each > platform. Thats how i did it, but yes it's very expensive. 6 men > months for us. Too expensive for me. > 3) Just develop for one platform and do this with 100% quality. Well, 'boss' wants Win & Mac support. > 4) Dont' care about native Apps and play the GUI Nazi. How good is GTK+ in this scenario? Sincerely, Gour -- The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:21:10 -0500 Paul Davis wrote: > most people who work with GTK don't do much work with Qt and vice > versa, so its a bit hard to answer "is it on par". OK. Not owning Mac, I also cannot discern how native are either Qt or GTK+. > this application is written in GTK and runs on Linux, BSD, OS X and > Windows: http://ardour.org/ Kudos to you and all devs working on such gorgeous app! > there are very few problems with GTK on OS X at this time. the ones > that exist are relatively minor, though for specific apps they might > be important. Good. > native appearance is not something that is important to my application > (pro-audio apps, even the ones from Apple, don't look like "apple" > apps). Good point. > support for native appearance is not particularly strong, > though there is a theme engine that will provide appearance close to > native Quartz. How easy is to deploy it? > recent versions of GTK now support platform-centric > modifier key behaviour for modifier+key bindings that are built into > GTK (so, for example, it will use Command-foo on OS X rather than > Ctrl-foo). That's nice to hear. > there is no particularly viable way to access "native" file selection > browsing, but given the way that apple has changed the way these > dialogs work several times themselves (some versions of OS X even come > with 2 different implementations with very different appearance), i > don't see this as a huge obstacle. Thank you very much for your input. Sincerely, Gour -- But a person free from all attachment and aversion and able to control his senses through regulative principles of freedom can obtain the complete mercy of the Lord. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello Gour, Sunday, November 20, 2011, 10:40:18 PM, you wrote: G> In the meantime we were busy with other (web) stuff and yesterday went G> checking what's the status of D's ecosystem with the intention to G> re-consider doing our project in D. Is it really? I'm watching it for 5 years now at it is always in terrible broken state. Definitely a no for me. G> We found out that gtkD might be stable enough, but we wonder what is the G> status of GTK+ port on Mac OS? G> Personally, we prefer GTK+ over Qt, running GTK-based desktop (Xfce), G> but cannot (due to different reasons) to sacrifice look & behaviour of G> the application on Mac OS X platform. Forget it. Neither you nor any customer of you will get happy with GTK+ on MacOSX. G> Any hint? The only ways are 1) WxWidgets 2) Maintain two GUI's. Write a small abstraction layer for your required widget functionality and then put the window creation stuff (which is the most toolkit specific) into a different module for each platform. Thats how i did it, but yes it's very expensive. 6 men months for us. 3) Just develop for one platform and do this with 100% quality. 4) Dont' care about native Apps and play the GUI Nazi. -- Best regards, Lotharmailto:llot...@web.de ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
Re: GTK+ on Mac OS X status
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Gour wrote: > So, how is the project of having 'native' GTK+ on going on and is it on > par with the Qt? most people who work with GTK don't do much work with Qt and vice versa, so its a bit hard to answer "is it on par". this application is written in GTK and runs on Linux, BSD, OS X and Windows: http://ardour.org/ there are very few problems with GTK on OS X at this time. the ones that exist are relatively minor, though for specific apps they might be important. > Personally, we prefer GTK+ over Qt, running GTK-based desktop (Xfce), > but cannot (due to different reasons) to sacrifice look & behaviour of > the application on Mac OS X platform. native appearance is not something that is important to my application (pro-audio apps, even the ones from Apple, don't look like "apple" apps). support for native appearance is not particularly strong, though there is a theme engine that will provide appearance close to native Quartz. recent versions of GTK now support platform-centric modifier key behaviour for modifier+key bindings that are built into GTK (so, for example, it will use Command-foo on OS X rather than Ctrl-foo). there is no particularly viable way to access "native" file selection browsing, but given the way that apple has changed the way these dialogs work several times themselves (some versions of OS X even come with 2 different implementations with very different appearance), i don't see this as a huge obstacle. ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
GTK+ on Mac OS X status
Hello! Some months ago I was considering to use D + QtD for writing multi-platform desktop application being that if we want to target Mac OS, then Qt looks better. However, seeing that D's ecosystem was not quite mature, we explored idea to use C(P)thon along with PyQt/PySide. (Since we have need for 3rd party C library licensed as GPL2+, we are not so concerned about PyQt vs. PySide). In the meantime we were busy with other (web) stuff and yesterday went checking what's the status of D's ecosystem with the intention to re-consider doing our project in D. We found out that gtkD might be stable enough, but we wonder what is the status of GTK+ port on Mac OS? I understand that GTK+ on Windows might be good-enough, we'd develop using Linux but have no idea about Mac OS X and its different versions... So, how is the project of having 'native' GTK+ on going on and is it on par with the Qt? Personally, we prefer GTK+ over Qt, running GTK-based desktop (Xfce), but cannot (due to different reasons) to sacrifice look & behaviour of the application on Mac OS X platform. Any hint? Sincerely, Gour -- From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool. http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ gtk-list mailing list gtk-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-list
