Re: Rename glibc-utf8-locales to glibc-limited-utf8-locales

[Rovanion Luckey]

I prefer names to not be lying about what they are, despite any
documentation. It is a UX problem if the user has to search the
documentation for any given package name before installing it, just to make
sure that it contains what it says on the can so to speak.

The name glibc-utf8-locales when contrasted with glibc-locales reads to me
like "it contains only the utf8-locales".

Thanks for the reply!
Rovanion

Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread

[Christine Lemmer-Webber]

Taylan, thank you for the thoughtful response and to listening to what I
said.  It's too close to bedtime for me to be able to respond
coherently, but I will do so tomorrow.  Just wanted to leave this hear
in the meanwhile so it was clear you were heard.

 - Christine

Taylan Kammer  writes:

> Hi Christine,
>
> Thank you for opening up.  It was definitely not apparent to me that you
> had such a reaction to the thread.  As we know, text doesn't convey the
> nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial
> emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed.  Had I realized
> that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have
> responded differently.
>
> My heartfelt apologies in that regard.
>
> For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in
> the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things
> as well.
>
> ---
>
> Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the
> thread might ever think.  I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as
> well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an
> important role in the development of my severe chronic depression.
>
> I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as
> open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me
> much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into
> too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments
> throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of
> severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago.
>
> The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in
> the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have
> not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on,
> which might be why I was able to respond a few more times...
>
> I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015.  Near (then byuu) helped me
> revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's
> built.  After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also
> briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him.
> We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and
> respect for him.  The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me.
>
> Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind
> the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has
> a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a
> potential future bullying target or something.  So far I've been spared,
> but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web
> search away.
>
> All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at
> no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone.
>
> I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending
> the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be
> respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected.
>
> The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the
> position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some
> twisted wish to cause hurt.  Rather, it was because that perspective is
> based on the experiences of countless AFAB people who have been hurt in
> countless ways, just like the perspective that is currently rightfully
> encoded in the CoC is based on the experiences of trans people.  (I've
> also found the sex-based perspective to have strong explanatory power
> w.r.t. my personal problems, although I've come to see that as almost
> irrelevant in the face of everything else I've learned.)
>
> ---
>
> There's one thing I've not been able to understand.  I don't know if you
> wish to respond any further, but if so, please note that the following
> is a completely genuine inquiry, and not meant in any confrontational
> manner at all, just like the rest of this email.  I think it would be
> very helpful for the future if you could help me with this:
>
> The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that
> they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences.
> What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I
> actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as
> possible that I had no such intention.
>
> For example, I had said things like:
>
>   "I can assure you that I'm 100% fine with the CoC mentioning gender
>   identity and, for example, if someone were to make inflammatory
>   remarks towards the worldview of transgender people in this community,
>   I wouldn't hesitate opposing that."
>
> And in the summary:
>
>   "I sincerely have no issue with the CoC protecting people based on
>   gender identity or other transgender status, and am equally
>   disinterested as others in having debates about that topic."
>
> Yet something seems to 

Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread

[Taylan Kammer]

Hi Christine,

Thank you for opening up.  It was definitely not apparent to me that you
had such a reaction to the thread.  As we know, text doesn't convey the
nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial
emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed.  Had I realized
that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have
responded differently.

My heartfelt apologies in that regard.

For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in
the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things
as well.

---

Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the
thread might ever think.  I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as
well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an
important role in the development of my severe chronic depression.

I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as
open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me
much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into
too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments
throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of
severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago.

The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in
the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have
not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on,
which might be why I was able to respond a few more times...

I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015.  Near (then byuu) helped me
revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's
built.  After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also
briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him.
We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and
respect for him.  The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me.

Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind
the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has
a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a
potential future bullying target or something.  So far I've been spared,
but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web
search away.

All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at
no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone.

I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending
the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be
respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected.

The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the
position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some
twisted wish to cause hurt.  Rather, it was because that perspective is
based on the experiences of countless AFAB people who have been hurt in
countless ways, just like the perspective that is currently rightfully
encoded in the CoC is based on the experiences of trans people.  (I've
also found the sex-based perspective to have strong explanatory power
w.r.t. my personal problems, although I've come to see that as almost
irrelevant in the face of everything else I've learned.)

---

There's one thing I've not been able to understand.  I don't know if you
wish to respond any further, but if so, please note that the following
is a completely genuine inquiry, and not meant in any confrontational
manner at all, just like the rest of this email.  I think it would be
very helpful for the future if you could help me with this:

The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that
they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences.
What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I
actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as
possible that I had no such intention.

For example, I had said things like:

  "I can assure you that I'm 100% fine with the CoC mentioning gender
  identity and, for example, if someone were to make inflammatory
  remarks towards the worldview of transgender people in this community,
  I wouldn't hesitate opposing that."

And in the summary:

  "I sincerely have no issue with the CoC protecting people based on
  gender identity or other transgender status, and am equally
  disinterested as others in having debates about that topic."

Yet something seems to have gone wrong.

There was one email, my response to Liliana, in which I've touched on
the debate itself, but that was even before your emails so I don't
think it was that...

Reading over my mails, I just don't understand why they might have been
misunderstood so badly.  If you could shed some light on that, I would be
very grateful!  It would certainly help me avoid mistakes in the future,
if I were to talk about these matters in a different place.


I 

Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread

[Morgan Lemmer Webber]

Hello! I am Morgan Lemmer-Webber, a cis-gendered woman who is a guix user
(though not a developer). I have been an active member of the FOSS world,
am co-host of a FOSS podcast, and overall have had delightful interactions
with the guix community. As Christine said, I do also have a PhD in Art
History with a focus on the social history of women, and therefore am well
versed in feminist theory.

That being said, I have zero interest in being the tolken cis-woman in any
group of people. In fact, this type of gender-essentialist conversation
being raised by men in an attempt to speak for women (who may or may not
want to join a community) without actually consulting women (who may or may
not already be in that community) is exactly the type of interaction that
would make me take pause before joining a community.

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 6:34 PM Christine Lemmer-Webber <
cweb...@dustycloud.org> wrote:

> Taylan, I respect you and your work.  I don't think you realize how much
> hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good
> faith.  But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a
> lot.
>
> I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing
> for all week.  It was a technically intense presentation with a demo
> that required a lot of engineering effort to get there.  I was stressed
> enough.  But the demo went well.  Everyone was excited, including me.
>
> I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended
> like that was relief.  But I didn't feel relieved.  I felt... tired.
>
> And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour.  Because the
> pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and
> push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this
> thread, but when it was over, they overflowed.
>
> And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or
> hurt.  You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you
> feel you have been accused of things.  This is not an accusation.  This
> is an appeal to empathy.
>
> Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one,
> when things reached this stage.  But I tried to help this conversation
> end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days.  So I'm
> relaying my experiences here.
>
> Taylan Kammer  writes:
>
> > On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote:
> >>
> >>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to
> conclusions
> >>> based on a quick skim, or something like that.
> >>
> >> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you
> still
> >> continue. People already told you were bothering them.
> >
> > I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it
> off-list,
> > other than responding to Blake's accusation of course.
> >
> > Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless
> I
> > missed it?
>
> I did...
>
> And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did.  I *definitely* did.
> This was on Monday, it is now Friday.  Here's what I said across my
> two emails:
>
>  - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to
>support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans
> experiences:
>
>> My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was,
>> 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point*
>> for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely
>> to be so
>
>  - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable
>debating these topics on a technical mailing list:
>
>> I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics.  I've certainly
>> read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of
>> books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't
>> feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list.
>
>  - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried
>to help everything close in a way that was friendly:
>
>> Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied.
>>
>> It seems the issue is closed then.  Look forward to everyone getting
>> back to hacking. :)
>
> Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs
> and went downstairs to prepare lunch.  Morgan, my wife (who is also a
> Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay?  You look stressed."
>
> And I relayed what happened on this thread.
>
> "Is *that* what's being debated on this list?  I'm not a Guix
> *developer*, but I am a Guix *user*.  That kind of gender essentialism
> makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in
> and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have
> to deal with all that.  That's not the kind of community I want to
> participate in."
>
> We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful,
> Lisp for Everyone" talk.  A major portion of the 

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Lily,

On 2022-02-26 1:48, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote:

As a nice side-effect, adding it would give us
two reasons to ban Taylan; first for discriminating against trans
people based on their sex characteristics and second based on their
gender identity or expression.


This is a new low.


we all know the kind of actors who will publicly
apologize only to continue with (pardon my French) shitty behaviour,
rinse and repeat.


Look in a mirror.

Kind regards,

T G-R

Sent from a Web browser.  Excuse or enjoy my brevity.

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Hi simon,

I know I'm late to the party, but given how vocal I was in that other
CoC thread and the positive feedback I received from other contributors
for speaking out, I do think I have a valuable opinion here.

Am Freitag, dem 25.02.2022 um 01:05 +0100 schrieb zimoun:
> Hi,
> 
> The current Guix CoC is adapted from v1.4 [1] and this upstream version
> contains:
> 
>     regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex
>     characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of
>     experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality,
>     personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and
>     orientation.
> 
> [...]
> Any opposition to use this upstream v1.4 list instead of the current
> one?  Other said, add ’sex characteristics’ to the list.
> 
> So, since we are at it, let give a look at the most recent version v2.1
> [3]. :-) I propose to adopt their extended list:
> 
>     regardless of age, body size, visible or invisible
> disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity 
> and expression, level of experience, education,
> socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance,
> race, caste, color, religion, or sexual identity and
> orientation.
> 
> Any opposition?
Putting the contentious topic of sex characteristics away for a second
(I'll return to it later, promise), this list clarifies disability by
categorizing it into both visible and invisible and also adds caste and
color.  Now to a privileged person who has not been discriminated on
any of the grounds listed among these, caste might sound vaguely
similar to socio-economic status, and within the US and Europe we talk
a lot of how race is defined along the lines of skin color.  Hunting
down Github, there seems to be some evidence, that these were added in
a "cosmetic adjustments"-style commit [5], but as that caused a bunch
of issues, version 2.1 was released explicitly to add these two. 
Before that, visible and invisible disability was expanded in 2.0 with
the goal of being more inclusive.  I do think that these cover more
ground than previously and should definitely be added if we want to
version-bump.

On the topic of sex characteristics, while the term is somewhat badly
chosen thanks biology being super-not-political, I do think the
addition would be significantly less problematic than simply adding
"sex".  It is nowadays understood that these characteristics don't
define "sex", whatever that might be, and only the name has remained
because naming is hard.  As a nice side-effect, adding it would give us
two reasons to ban Taylan; first for discriminating against trans
people based on their sex characteristics and second based on their
gender identity or expression.

> The version 2.1 also adds «Enforcement guidelines».  I propose to
> keep the current «Further details of specific enforcement policies
> may be posted separately.»  While the guidelines might be a good
> thing.  I do not have an opinion.  WDYT?
I agree that the guidelines themselves don't sound bad, but given the
maintainer to audience ratio, I understand that Guix would want to go
its own way in this regard.  As far as public apologies are concerned,
however, I don't think these elicit a proper amount of self-criticism
in most cases – we all know the kind of actors who will publicly
apologize only to continue with (pardon my French) shitty behaviour,
rinse and repeat.

Apart from the mentioned changes, we do already have some of the
changes related to the CoC's presentation, e.g. leading with the
positive environment rather than the behaviour we do not want.  I think
we do share some values with most others who adopt a CoC, so in my
personal opinion, it'd be beneficial to adopt as many things from
upstream as we reasonably can.

Cheers

> 1: <
> https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct/>
> 2:
> 
> 3:
> 
> 4: 
5:
https://github.com/EthicalSource/contributor_covenant/commit/4d97cd07359047a69da042f2549dbcbaef2a015f

PS: I know this has been withdrawn, but I'd propose to reconsider given
that most of the derailment appears to be caused (directly in this
thread or indirectly) by a certain someone who has opened another
thread requesting a CoC change.  

Re:Re: [bug]: xfce4: xfpm-power-backlight-helper alway let me input password.

[tumashu]

At 2022-02-25 17:09:25, "Zhu Zihao"  wrote:
>
>tumashu  writes:
>
>> i can not run gdm success, but have the problem too when run sddm.
>
>Try put a fontconfig file under /var/lib/sddm/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf
>
>cat > /var/lib/sddm/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf << "EOF"
>
>
>
>   /run/current-system/profile/share/fonts/
>
>EOF
>
>And install the fonts in system wide package configuration.
>
>This issue was introduced in the merge of 'core-updates-frozen'. But I
>can't find a proper way to fix this. 


Now I just use slim, for it show English, and no this problem:-)




>
>-- 
>Retrieve my PGP public key:
>
>  gpg --recv-keys D47A9C8B2AE3905B563D9135BE42B352A9F6821F
>
>Zihao

An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread

[Christine Lemmer-Webber]

Taylan, I respect you and your work.  I don't think you realize how much
hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good
faith.  But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a
lot.

I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing
for all week.  It was a technically intense presentation with a demo
that required a lot of engineering effort to get there.  I was stressed
enough.  But the demo went well.  Everyone was excited, including me.

I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended
like that was relief.  But I didn't feel relieved.  I felt... tired.

And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour.  Because the
pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and
push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this
thread, but when it was over, they overflowed.

And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or
hurt.  You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you
feel you have been accused of things.  This is not an accusation.  This
is an appeal to empathy.

Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one,
when things reached this stage.  But I tried to help this conversation
end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days.  So I'm
relaying my experiences here.

Taylan Kammer  writes:

> On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote:
>> 
>>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to 
>>> conclusions
>>> based on a quick skim, or something like that.
>> 
>> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you still
>> continue. People already told you were bothering them.
>
> I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it off-list,
> other than responding to Blake's accusation of course.
>
> Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless I
> missed it?

I did...

And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did.  I *definitely* did.
This was on Monday, it is now Friday.  Here's what I said across my
two emails:

 - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to
   support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans experiences:

   > My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was,
   > 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point*
   > for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely
   > to be so

 - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable
   debating these topics on a technical mailing list:

   > I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics.  I've certainly
   > read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of
   > books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't
   > feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list.

 - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried
   to help everything close in a way that was friendly:
   
   > Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied.
   >
   > It seems the issue is closed then.  Look forward to everyone getting
   > back to hacking. :)

Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs
and went downstairs to prepare lunch.  Morgan, my wife (who is also a
Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay?  You look stressed."

And I relayed what happened on this thread.

"Is *that* what's being debated on this list?  I'm not a Guix
*developer*, but I am a Guix *user*.  That kind of gender essentialism
makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in
and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have
to deal with all that.  That's not the kind of community I want to
participate in."

We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful,
Lisp for Everyone" talk.  A major portion of the talk was about Guix.
Another major portion of the talk (since "who's representing feminism"
keeps coming up) was about Morgan's experiences *writing her
dissertation using a markup language which is secretly a lisp dialect*
on "Women and Wool Working in Ancient Rome".  Her PhD, Masters, Major,
and Minor were all embedded in gender and sexual analysis through the
lived experiences of women, primarily cisgender, throughout history.
No matter how many books you and I have read on gender and sexuality,
I can guarantee you Morgan has read more.

Anyway if there are any other cisgender women who have presented about
Guix in a video presentation I would be pleased, but as far as I know,
she's the only one I've seen do so.  Corrections extremely welcome.
Active steps to pull more women into our community, strongly encouraged.

But at the time I said, "Oh, I think it wrapped up.  The person who
raised it backpedaled and I tried to be friendly in softening the
closing by saying 'cool let's all get back to hacking!' so I don't think
we have to worry about it 

Re: setting open files limit for daemon processes

[Maxime Devos]

Attila Lendvai schreef op vr 25-02-2022 om 21:28 [+]:
> is there a way to instruct `guix system vm ...` _not_ to rebuild all the
> dependants, and only replace the Shepherd that is running as the init process?

This can be done by customising the 'shepherd' field of 'shepherd-
configuration', introduced in 95f72dcd7aece05e9252c93bef5a831f96cb5393.

The manual has an example on how to use this:

The following example specifies the Shepherd package for the operating
system:

@lisp
(operating-system
  ;; ...
  (services (append (list openssh-service-type))
;; ...
%desktop-services)
  ;; ...
  ;; Use own Shepherd package.
  (essential-services
   (modify-services (operating-system-default-essential-services
 this-operating-system)
 (shepherd-root-service-type config => (shepherd-configuration
(inherit config)
(shepherd my-shepherd))

Greetings,
Maxime.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Blake Shaw]

Taylan Kammer  writes:


> The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues
> faced by female-born people.  As far as I'm aware, no female-born
> person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem
> to exist in the community.  (What a coincidence.)

Actually there are cis women in the community. There voices have
just been absent since this discourse began (what a coincidence)

but really, can finally lay this to rest???


-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”

Apology and proposal withdraw

[zimoun]

Hi,

Although I still think the update to the wording of v2.1 [1] is good, it
appears to me that the thread is going out of rail again, breaching the
current CoC:

* Focusing on what is best for the community

I was thinking that simply asking for an update would have been as
smooth as in 2018 from v1.3 to v1.4 [2].  Wrong!  It is again and again
unrelated off-topic debates which leads nowhere.  And worse, it hurts or
offends or strongly irritates some of us.

Therefore, I apologize.  I am sorry to have overestimated the capacity
of some Guix community members to keep a positive environment and show
empathy towards other community members.

I withdraw my proposal of a CoC update from v1.4 to v2.1 since the
thread is apparently not able to stay on track.  Please stop any further
discussion, especially off-topic discussions – otherwise it would be
another breach of our CoC by «trolling, insulting/derogatory comments,
and personal or political attacks».

1: 
2: 

Thanks,
simon

Re: setting open files limit for daemon processes

[Attila Lendvai]

> i'd be happy to play with this, but i don't know how to run a Guix VM that is
> built using my modified Shepherd; i.e. i have no idea how to test what i'm
> doing.

it actually seems simpler than i thought: i edited the Shepherd package to:

(source (git-checkout (url "file://my-path/shepherd/")))

plus i added some extra NATIVE-INPUTS to be able to build it from the unreleased
sources. after that a `./pre-inst-env guix system vm ...` seems to pick up the
changes, this would be a bearable edit-build-test cycle.

except that modifying shepherd seems to trigger quite a lot of packages to be
rebuilt.

is there a way to instruct `guix system vm ...` _not_ to rebuild all the
dependants, and only replace the Shepherd that is running as the init process?

is this something where grafts could be helpful?

--
• attila lendvai
• PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
--
“Awareness isn’t something we own; awareness isn’t something we possess. 
Awareness is actually what we are.”
— Adyashanti (1962–)

Bytestructures 2.0

[Taylan Kammer]

Hi Guix,

I've just sent a patch (to guix-patches) that updates bytestructures to
version 2.0.1.

The bump in major version is due to a small API change:

The indexing semantics of bs:pointer would previously implicitly dereference
the pointer when any index other than '* was provided, whereas in this version
the dereference must be explicit, and can be '* or an integer that represents
an offset from the pointer address a la *(ptr + i) in C.

Since the change is for such a niche use-case, I thought that creating a
separate bytestructures-2.0 package would be overkill.

After updating, I've built all packages in Guix that I could detect which
depend on guile-bytestructures.  All those that had a test suite, passed it.
Some did not have a test suite.

(Interestingly, guile-wiredtiger was failing to build even before the
update, because it needed to depend on guile2.2-bytestructures since it
depends on guile-2.2.  I've sent an according patch as well.)

If you're the maintainer of a package that uses bytestructures and have an
issue with which you need assistance, feel free to send me a private mail
as sometimes I end up only skimming the Guix ML.

-- 
Taylan

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Taylan Kammer]

On 25.02.2022 21:38, Philip McGrath wrote:
> 
> It seems to me that one of the reasons to have a CoC is to communicate that 
> the identities and experiences of people who face discrimination are not up 
> for debate. Yet here it seems they are, in fact, being called into question, 
> [...]
> 

They are being indeed, but not by me.  The addition I've proposed would have
recognized more types of discrimination, not fewer.  That's the whole point.

Anyhow, update to upstream is better than nothing; at least it acknowledges
sex discrimination indirectly through oblique wording.

-- 
Taylan

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Philip McGrath]

On 2/25/22 11:59, Taylan Kammer wrote:> Transwomen have many challenges 
they have to face, and some of them may be

similar or equivalent to some challenges women have to face, but to claim


I'm concerned that framing "transwomen" and "women" as though they were 
two contrasting groups is itself inconsistent with the current CoC's 
standard of "using welcoming and inclusive language".


While I think the best reading of "Le Deuxième Sexe" affirms that trans 
women are women, I agree with those who have already said that this list 
is not a suitable forum for debating the finer points of feminist theory.


It seems to me that one of the reasons to have a CoC is to communicate 
that the identities and experiences of people who face discrimination 
are not up for debate. Yet here it seems they are, in fact, being called 
into question, even though people have already expressed discomfort and 
asked for it to stop or move off-list.


I've bcc'ed guix-maintain...@gnu.org, since someone requested that earlier.

-Philip

P.S.: Personally, I'm fine with either the current CoC text or with 
Simon's proposed update to bring it into alignment with upstream, if 
that has consensus.

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

I'm a hetero white male from the USA and I would appreciate it if we could keep 
this mailing focused on software development instead of feminist transgender 
meta discussion. It seems quite settled nobody else finds the code of conduct 
lacking in practice so we should probably just move on and accept that this is 
a place for discussing Guix and not for making every paragraph of text conform 
perfectly with everyone's worldview.


Sincerely,

Ryan Sundberg
Principal Software Engineer
Arctype Corporation
(916) 622-2449


 Original Message 
From: Taylan Kammer 
Sent: February 25, 2022 9:29:29 AM PST
To: Blake Shaw , zimoun 
Cc: Guix Devel 
Subject: Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

On 25.02.2022 16:18, Blake Shaw wrote:
> zimoun  writes:
> 
> My position remains unchanged: our codes of conduct should do everything
> possible to be as inclusive as and open to peoples of marginalized
> groups that are discriminated against. White cis men shouldn't be in
> charge of deciding whats best for these people. 
> 
> As far as I can see, not a single woman has come forward to say that
> proposed CoC amendments would benefit or protect them in any way. In
> fact the opposite is the case: two have come forward to say that this
> appears as ploy by men to debate their gender and experience.
> 
> Why are white men so insistent on making changes that would supposedly
> increase inclusivity, despite those from marginalized backgrounds saying
> the opposite is the case here?
> 
> Until a fem contributor comes forward to say that they feel changes
> to the current CoC would bring about some tangible protection to them,
> it seems to me that this discourse is a case of the dominant white cis
> males making changes to "protect women" without the consent of women,
> which has never fared well in history.
> 
> So with that said, I think decisions concerning women should be left to
> women (all women!) to decide.
> 
> ez,
> b
> 

I'm a visibly middle-eastern person living in Germany, and I'm not
cisgender.  Not that it matters.

The worldview I've wished for the CoC to respect, in addition to
those it already respects, is one that comes from a long line of
feminist scholars and activists.

The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues
faced by female-born people.  As far as I'm aware, no female-born
person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem
to exist in the community.  (What a coincidence.)

Anyhow, Zimoun's proposal is merely to update the CoC to upstream,
which continues to be authored by a transwoman, if that matters.

-- 
Taylan

Re: Upstreaming my Android channel

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hi Julien,

Julien Lepiller  writes:

> Hi Guix!
>
> I have been working on updating Android packages for some time now. I
> think it's at a point I'm confident I can share and move them upstream.
> My work is currently in a separate channel at
> https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-android. I have been working on the
> SDK and tools, which we already have. We currently are limited to
> Android 7 versions, because later Android versions do not use the same
> build system anymore.
>
> Since then, Android uses the Soong build system, based on blueprint.
> It's pretty complex, and specific. I tried to build it, but it assumes
> too many things to be useful. Instead, I "reimplemented" it by
> following what a Nix contributor did in soongnix:
> https://github.com/danielfullmer/soongnix
>
> I created a soong-build-system that has a few modules for cc, art and
> java types of packages. It supports building most packages from the SDK
> and other Android tools: aapt, appt2, adb, aidl, apksigner, dexdump,
> dmtracedump, dx, etc1tool, fastboot, hprof-conv, libaapt2_jni,
> split-select, zipalign.

This sounds good!

> I have an importer that is a bit different from the existing importers.
> First, it needs to checkout ~30GB of git repositories (and that's with
> --depth=1 for all of them!), explore the set of Android.bp files (used
> by soong) and create one package for each package in these Android.bp
> files. That creates packages that can be a bit smaller than expected.
> Instead of printing, the importer creates two files: one for the source
> definitions (many packages share the same source) and one for the
> packages and their dependencies.

30 GiB!  Wow.  Is there no lighter means to get at the needed data?
Perhaps some tarball snapshot with test data filtered or similar?  I
hope this data is at least gets reused (cached) between invocations?
But I'd expect even just updating such a large set of git repository
would be slow... potentially slowing each invocation of the importer?
Or do you handle this?

> Since I have all of that in a channel, the importer doesn't work from
> the command-line, but I have a relatively simple API that you can use
> to import packages:
>
> ```
> ,use (android import repo)
> (define manifest (get-manifest))
>
> ;; Fetch repositories that form the android distribution.
> ;; This is very big (> 28GB) and will take some time.  If it fails
> ;; because of a network issue, restart that command again until
> ;; everything is downloaded.
> ;;
> ;; You can also add an optional destination directory where the
> ;; sources are to be downloaded, e.g. on a different file-system if
> ;; you lack space on the file system your home directory is on.
> (define root (fetch-manifest-repositories manifest))
>
> ;; Finds all Android.bp files from which to import, takes ~10s on warm
> ;; cache, significantly longer on cold cache and spiny disks.
> (define bp-files (get-all-bp-files root))
>
> ;; Creates the shared structure: a map of modules and variables to the
> ;; files that define them, so we can find them, without actually parsing
> ;; everything.  Will take ~5mins on an HDD, could be faster on SSD.
> (define bp-maps (get-bp-maps bp-files))
>
> ;; Run the import.  The last two arguments are the names of files that
> ;; will be generated.
> (import-recursively manifest root bp-maps '("adb" "fastboot")
> "sources.scm" "packages.scm")
> ```
>
> That would import adb and fastboot

Cool!

> You can see the result of importing a bit more than that at
> https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-android/-/blob/master/android/packages/android-tools.scm
> and
> https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-android/-/blob/master/android/packages/android-sources.scm
>
> It's pretty great but missing a few things. These packages don't have a
> home page, synopsis, description, ... and I don't see a way to easily
> import that. Although I could manually add them, the work will have to
> be done again at each update. Every month, Google releases a new
> Android revision (not necessarily a major version) that modifies some
> sources, and can impact the set of dependencies we need to build.
>
> I was aiming at having an importer that was able to recreate all the
> files with no human intervention. I think it's the only sane way to
> take care of all those packages.

Perhaps there's another web site (like pkg.go.dev for Go packages)
holding such metadata that we could query to fill the missing blanks?

> Currently I think all of android/build, android/build-system,
> android/import, android/packages/android-{headers,tools,sources}.scm
> and android/packages/{bison,clang}.scm can be upstreamed. The rest is
> wip or broken packages.
>
> Do you have any ideas how we could plan upstreaming all this?
> Especially, how could the importer fit in the current Guix
> infrastructure?

If the quirks (30 GiB checkout for one) are well documented, also
perhaps directly interactively (warning: the importer needs to fetch
about 30 

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Leo Famulari]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 06:35:19PM +0100, Taylan Kammer wrote:
> There's a gnu-misc-discuss mailing list which seems to be used for topics
> that are only tangentially on-topic.  It might be a candidate.  Though it
> has some... well, trolls IMO, though I won't name names.  So maybe it's
> not the best place.  Just throwing it out there.
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/

That list is a bad place because it's where all the bad conversations go
--- tautological.

If Guix were to set up a similar list, we'd end up hosting something
just as bad, and to outsiders, it would reflect poorly on Guix. Just
like gnu-misc-discuss makes GNU look awful to outsiders.

It won't benefit Guix to have a mailing list dedicated to off-topic
tangents. We should strive to maintain an atmosphere that is focused,
courteous, and collegial.

There *is* a Guix community, but Guix is not a community space, or a
place to live. It's a software project.

On the topic of cryptomining and its inclusion in the distro, there have
always been programs that people think should not be distributed. The
problem is that there's no consensus about which programs are beyond the
pale.

Re: better error messages through assertions

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hello Ricardo,

Ricardo Wurmus  writes:

> Hi Guix,
>
> today on IRC someone reported an ugly error message when reconfiguring
> their system:
>
> Backtrace:
>   18 (primitive-load "/home/me/.config/guix/current/bin/…")
> In guix/ui.scm:
>2209:7 17 (run-guix . _)
>   2172:10 16 (run-guix-command _ . _)
> In ice-9/boot-9.scm:
>   1752:10 15 (with-exception-handler _ _ #:unwind? _ # _)
> In guix/status.scm:
> 822:3 14 (_)
> 802:4 13 (call-with-status-report _ _)
> In guix/scripts/system.scm:
>1256:4 12 (_)
> In ice-9/boot-9.scm:
>   1752:10 11 (with-exception-handler _ _ #:unwind? _ # _)
> In guix/store.scm:
>658:37 10 (thunk)
>1320:8  9 (call-with-build-handler # …)
>   2123:24  8 (run-with-store # …)
> In guix/scripts/system.scm:
> 827:2  7 (_ _)
> 703:7  6 (_ #)
> In gnu/system.scm:
>   1227:19  5 (operating-system-derivation _)
> In gnu/services.scm:
>1091:6  4 (instantiate-missing-services _)
> In srfi/srfi-1.scm:
>460:18  3 (fold # …)
> In gnu/services.scm:
>   1092:27  2 (_ (#< type: # …) …)
> In ice-9/boot-9.scm:
>   1685:16  1 (raise-exception _ #:continuable? _)
>   1685:16  0 (raise-exception _ #:continuable? _)
>
> ice-9/boot-9.scm:1685:16: In procedure raise-exception:
> In procedure struct-vtable: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting 
> struct):
>
> As you can probably tell easily by looking at this message, the
> “service” field of the operating system configuration looked something
> like this:
>
>   (services (append (list a b c %desktop-services) #;oops))
>
> instead of this
>
>   (services (append (list a b c) %desktop-services))
>
> This is because INSTANTIATE-MISSING-SERVICES — and FOLD-SERVICES, and
> many more — assumes that it is only passed a plain list of services.  It
> then proceeds to call SERVICE-KIND on what may or may not be a service.
>
> I think we should add simple type checks, something like this:
>
>   (define (listof pred)
> (lambda (thing)
>  (and (list? thing) (every pred thing
>   …
>   (define (assert-type type-check thing message)
> (or (false-if-exception (type-check thing))
> (report-error (G_ "type error: …\n" message
>
>   ;; Use ASSERT-TYPE in an example procedure.
>   (define (do-something-with-services services)
> (assert-type (listof service?) services
>  "SERVICES must be a list of  values.")
>
> ;; Do things…
> (map service-kind services))
>
> What do you think?  There are many different ways of implementing this
> (a new variant of DEFINE that also accepts a type declaration, an assert
> like above, a fancier assert that composes a helpful error message by
> itself, a separate type declaration that is looked up only when the
> corresponding procedure is called in a certain context, etc), but I’d
> first like to know if there is consensus that we want something like
> this.

I hear we now have "field sanitizers" on Guix records; without having
dug the details, it seems to be we could add a predicate validating the
input there?  The nice thing about it is that it'd be a one place
change, instead of asserts to sprinkle around various places.

Thanks,

Maxim

Re: Rename glibc-utf8-locales to glibc-limited-utf8-locales

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hi Rovanion,

Rovanion Luckey  writes:

> Hi,
> I have on different occasions had the issue of the package manager Guix
> hinting that locales were not installed or that GUIX_LOCPATH was not set,
> even though they were. Today I went to the bottom of the issue [0] and have
> found what in my opinion is the root cause:

This was already fixed in afec2784174058fdd85d9698e1fa748c45bfa8ee,
which no longer mentions gilbc-utf8-locales in the hint.

> Despite its name, the package glibc-utf8-locales does not contain all
> utf8-locales. There is nothing in the name that makes this apparent to the
> user, especially given that the package named glibc-locales contains all
> locales.
>
> My suggestion then is to change this package name from glibc-utf8-locales
> to glibc-limited-utf8-locales to make this distinction apparent to the
> user.

Perhaps that's not necessary anymore now that the package is not
mentioned in a UI hint?  The doc mentions it at some point, but stresses
that it contains only a limited subset of UTF-8 locales:

Alternatively, the @code{glibc-utf8-locales} is smaller but
limited to a few UTF-8 locales.

I we wanted to rename it, I'd go for 'glibc-utf8-locales-subset'.

Thanks,

Maxim

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Taylan Kammer]

On 25.02.2022 18:05, Maxime Devos wrote:
> 
> A separate spin-off mailing list might address this (does not have to
> be on gnu.org or associated with guix per-se).  It seems like Ricardo
> Wurmus wants any such list, if any, to be outside guix itself.  Would
> you have an idea for the location?
> 

There's a gnu-misc-discuss mailing list which seems to be used for topics
that are only tangentially on-topic.  It might be a candidate.  Though it
has some... well, trolls IMO, though I won't name names.  So maybe it's
not the best place.  Just throwing it out there.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/

-- 
Taylan

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Taylan Kammer]

On 25.02.2022 16:18, Blake Shaw wrote:
> zimoun  writes:
> 
> My position remains unchanged: our codes of conduct should do everything
> possible to be as inclusive as and open to peoples of marginalized
> groups that are discriminated against. White cis men shouldn't be in
> charge of deciding whats best for these people. 
> 
> As far as I can see, not a single woman has come forward to say that
> proposed CoC amendments would benefit or protect them in any way. In
> fact the opposite is the case: two have come forward to say that this
> appears as ploy by men to debate their gender and experience.
> 
> Why are white men so insistent on making changes that would supposedly
> increase inclusivity, despite those from marginalized backgrounds saying
> the opposite is the case here?
> 
> Until a fem contributor comes forward to say that they feel changes
> to the current CoC would bring about some tangible protection to them,
> it seems to me that this discourse is a case of the dominant white cis
> males making changes to "protect women" without the consent of women,
> which has never fared well in history.
> 
> So with that said, I think decisions concerning women should be left to
> women (all women!) to decide.
> 
> ez,
> b
> 

I'm a visibly middle-eastern person living in Germany, and I'm not
cisgender.  Not that it matters.

The worldview I've wished for the CoC to respect, in addition to
those it already respects, is one that comes from a long line of
feminist scholars and activists.

The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues
faced by female-born people.  As far as I'm aware, no female-born
person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem
to exist in the community.  (What a coincidence.)

Anyhow, Zimoun's proposal is merely to update the CoC to upstream,
which continues to be authored by a transwoman, if that matters.

-- 
Taylan

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Paul Jewell]

On 25/02/2022 16:14, Bengt Richter wrote:

On +2022-02-25 14:04:34 +0100, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice wrote:

On 2022-02-25 13:41, Bengt Richter wrote:

And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
endless complaints.

This is guix-grownups, although we accept grown-ups of all ages.


Glad to hear it :)

But the serious part of my post was

--8<---cut here---start->8---
WDYT of starting a list called "guix-off-list" to provide a
place for those who enjoy this kind of discussion?

I do enjoy such discussions sometimes, but not on the same
plate as debug tracebacks or beautiful code examples from
the virtuosos.

I don't mind single-line BTW or FYI or IMO: footnote
references to out-of-thread content if the rest of the post
contributes something and isn't just one line in a full
quote.

Having a "guix-offlist" would enable a reference like
"IMO:guix-offlist: bitcoin explained by me ;)"
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

The idea being to help factor off-topic discussion out of threads
without interfering with people's desire to follow up with
interesting ideas. Or not-so-interesting ideas :)

Thoughts?


Kind regards,

T G-R

Sent from a Web browser.  Excuse or enjoy my brevity.


I think it would be a good idea. There have been a couple of threads 
recently which have taken a lot bandwidth in the main lists where the 
topics have been interesting, but perhaps not on topic for the group.

Upstreaming my Android channel

[Nathan Dehnel]

Exciting!

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Maxime Devos]

Bengt Richter schreef op vr 25-02-2022 om 13:41 [+0100]:
> On +2022-02-24 19:27:37 -0500, Christine Lemmer-Webber wrote:
> > I am all for these conversations; they are good to have as a society, to
> > examine our social foundations in earnest dialogue.  But I think they've
> > approached a point on here where they're no longer about Guix
> > development, in particular, so probably should be moved off-list.
> > 
> 
> WDYT of starting a list called "guix-off-list" to provide a
> place for those who enjoy this kind of discussion?

I don't enjoy these discussions much, I only participate in them
(and sometime start them) because they seem necessary.
However, a kind of spin-off list for discussions that start at
guix-devel but became largely off-topic may be useful.

For some context, I sometimes see responses like e.g.

Christine Lemmer-Webber writes
> [...] But I think they've approached a point on here where they're no
> longer about Guix development, in particular, so probably should be
> moved off-list.

but currently there is not a standard way to move it off-list --
do I just put everyone who might be interested in 'To:' and hope that I
didn't include too many/forgot some people?  What if people weren't
initially interested but are later? How to keep archives?

A separate spin-off mailing list might address this (does not have to
be on gnu.org or associated with guix per-se).  It seems like Ricardo
Wurmus wants any such list, if any, to be outside guix itself.  Would
you have an idea for the location?

> And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
> where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
> endless complaints.

What does ‘adult language’ mean here?  Fancy titles (I sometimes
see a few Dr. and $FANCY_WORK_TILE)?  Complicated turns-of-phrase?
I haven't seen any complaints about that though.

Maybe you mean profanity?  Profanity is not limited to adults though,
there are plenty of adults that don't swear at all and plenty of
kids that swear.

And what does ‘casual’ mean here?  Often people just say 'Hi' and use
first names, seems rather casual to me; I haven't seen any complaints
about that so far.

Could you point me at some examples from the mailing list archives to
make things clearer?

The only thing I could think of here as ‘adult language’ would be some
event in the past where some rando accused me of gaslighting,
completely ignoring any explanation I gave previously on why I believe
X is Y.  Seems rather adult-y to me, but not good material for a
mailing list.

> Coming to some mailing lists these days I sometimes feel
> like I've entered a restaurant where the menu is dominated
> by allergy and spice concerns.

There's plenty of food (= patches, discussion about how to implement X,
etc.) on guix-devel.  I don't see the analogy, how could one be
allergic to patches?

> (I have nothing againt special venues catering to sensitive
> minorities, don't get me wrong. What do I mean "minorities" eh? :)

I don't know what you mean with ‘What do I mean "minorities" eh? :)’.
Also, I don't see the relationship between these paragraphs:

> And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
> where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
> endless complaints.
> [...]
> [... some analogy between mailing lists and allergy information at
> restaurants? ...]
> I have nothing againt special venues catering to sensitive minorities
> [...]

What does not excluding people from minorities from going to
restaurants and mailing lists have to do with the proposed guix-
grownups?  I'm pretty sure that adults don't form a minority,
and I'd hope that grownups aren't either.

(After this mail, I'll stop CC'ing guix-devel@gnu.org except perhaps
to say where the new mailing list, if any, is/will be, feel free to CC
me. Otherwise, I think we could keep going.)

Greetings,
Maxime


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Taylan Kammer]

On 25.02.2022 01:05, zimoun wrote:
> 
> Any opposition?
> 

Not from me for sure.  The wording "sex characteristics" was added by the
author of the CoC as a response to my and others' suggestion to add "sex,"
and while I think it's a bad euphemism for just 'sex' (trying very hard to
shoehorn the issues raised into the author's worldview), it's better than
there not being any reference to sex at all.

---

I have to say though, I'm deeply disappointed with the way the other thread
went.

All I wanted was to have a different, arguably more well-established feminist
viewpoint to be respected by the CoC as well, and in response I was vilified
and accused of trolling and harassment.

>From what I understand, none of the active members of the Guix community
know what it's like to be born with female anatomy and mistreated for that
reason.

Transwomen have many challenges they have to face, and some of them may be
similar or equivalent to some challenges women have to face, but to claim
that there are no issues unique to biologically female people (including
transmen and AFAB non-binary people BTW) simply points at a rather deep
ignorance towards sex discrimination.

As it stands, if a person with a classical feminist consciousness about sex
discrimination were to ask me whether the Guix community would show respect
towards her experiences and take her issues seriously, I would not be able
to reassure her.

Rather, it seems that any such woman who enters the community and is open
about her views is going to risk being vilified and lectured about her own
lived experiences.  By a group of male-born people, no less.

The Guix community cannot legitimately call itself a kind and inclusive
community so long as this problem stands.

-- 
Taylan

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Bengt Richter  writes:

> WDYT of starting a list called "guix-off-list" to provide a
> place for those who enjoy this kind of discussion?

Not as part of the project.  So if you want a list like that, please
maintain it by yourself.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Bengt Richter]

On +2022-02-25 14:04:34 +0100, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice wrote:
> On 2022-02-25 13:41, Bengt Richter wrote:
> > And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
> > where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
> > endless complaints.
> 
> This is guix-grownups, although we accept grown-ups of all ages.
>

Glad to hear it :)

But the serious part of my post was

--8<---cut here---start->8---
WDYT of starting a list called "guix-off-list" to provide a
place for those who enjoy this kind of discussion?

I do enjoy such discussions sometimes, but not on the same
plate as debug tracebacks or beautiful code examples from
the virtuosos.

I don't mind single-line BTW or FYI or IMO: footnote
references to out-of-thread content if the rest of the post
contributes something and isn't just one line in a full 
quote.

Having a "guix-offlist" would enable a reference like
"IMO:guix-offlist: bitcoin explained by me ;)"
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

The idea being to help factor off-topic discussion out of threads
without interfering with people's desire to follow up with
interesting ideas. Or not-so-interesting ideas :)

Thoughts?

> Kind regards,
> 
> T G-R
> 
> Sent from a Web browser.  Excuse or enjoy my brevity.

-- 
Regards,
Bengt Richter

Re: Everytime I install a package a symlink to ld.so.cache is created in $GUIX_PROFILE/etc, why?

[Maxime Devos]

vapnik spaknik schreef op vr 25-02-2022 om 15:16 [+]:
> I've noticed that whenever I install a new package guix symlinks
> the ld.so.cache file in that package to the etc subdir of my
> guix profile directory (on a foreign distro). I was a bit suspicious
> when I first noticed this, but then I discovered that it does this
> for every new package. Why?

See 
.

Also, unless there's a bug, guix does not replace the etc/ld.so.cache
in the store item of the installed package by a symlink -- store items
can (normally) not be modified after the fact.

However, ~/.guix-profile/etc/ld.so.cache _is_ a symlink to some ld.so.cache
of some arbitrary package in the profile.  This seems harmles to me, though
pointless, perhaps the profile building code should be modified to ignore
etc/ld.so.cache?

Greetings,
Maxime.


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Fixing python-notmuch2

[Tanguy LE CARROUR]

Hi Guix!

python-notmuch2 is broken [1] since the upgrade of notmuch
to version 0.35 (fb3508bb36).
Looks like a Python file is supposed to be generated by the configure
phase [2], but python-notmuch2 uses the python-build-system which, I
guess, does not run configure.

[1]: https://ci.guix.gnu.org/build/467828/details
[2]: 
https://git.notmuchmail.org/git?p=notmuch;a=commit;h=7b5921877e748338359a25dae578771f768183af

I'm not sure how to fix the problem!? Any advice would be welcome!

Regards,

-- 
Tanguy

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Blake Shaw]

zimoun  writes:

My position remains unchanged: our codes of conduct should do everything
possible to be as inclusive as and open to peoples of marginalized
groups that are discriminated against. White cis men shouldn't be in
charge of deciding whats best for these people. 

As far as I can see, not a single woman has come forward to say that
proposed CoC amendments would benefit or protect them in any way. In
fact the opposite is the case: two have come forward to say that this
appears as ploy by men to debate their gender and experience.

Why are white men so insistent on making changes that would supposedly
increase inclusivity, despite those from marginalized backgrounds saying
the opposite is the case here?

Until a fem contributor comes forward to say that they feel changes
to the current CoC would bring about some tangible protection to them,
it seems to me that this discourse is a case of the dominant white cis
males making changes to "protect women" without the consent of women,
which has never fared well in history.

So with that said, I think decisions concerning women should be left to
women (all women!) to decide.

ez,
b

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”

Re: setting open files limit for daemon processes

[Attila Lendvai]

> > su - [daemon user] -c 'ulimit -aHS' -s `which bash`
>
> That might set the limit of the user when that user logins (and hence,
> PAM things are run), but I don't see how this changes the limit of
> shepherd itself. I don't think that shepherd interacts with PAM at
> all?


my understanding of PAM is rather limited, but i guess it cannot hook into
setuid(), and as such it has no means to affect the ulimits of processes spawned
by Shepherd.


> My suggestion is to do (setrlimit RLIMIT_NOFILE [...]) inside shepherd
> itself -- when shepherd starts, or between 'fork' and 'exec'. Maybe


looking at the code, it'd be nice if we factored out a variant of fork (maybe
called CALL-IN-FORK) that took a thunk and called it in the forked path. that
would allow me to use that abstraction in user code to easily insert a call to
setrlimit before the EXEC-COMMAND, or whatever else is needed.

maybe using that abstraction we could straight out move EXEC-COMMAND to the guix
side? my thinking here is that toching/testing/updating the Shepherd codebase
seems to be much more trouble than the Guix codebase.

i'd be happy to play with this, but i don't know how to run a Guix VM that is
built using my modified Shepherd; i.e. i have no idea how to test what i'm
doing.


> an '#:open-file-limit' argument could be added to 'fork+exec-command'?


that would be the safest/simplest way to resolve this, but then what about all
the other limits?

--
• attila lendvai
• PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
--
“There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it 
treats its children.”
— Nelson Mandela (1918–2013)

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

On 2022-02-25 13:41, Bengt Richter wrote:

And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
endless complaints.


This is guix-grownups, although we accept grown-ups of all ages.

Kind regards,

T G-R

Sent from a Web browser.  Excuse or enjoy my brevity.

Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware?

[Bengt Richter]

On +2022-02-24 19:27:37 -0500, Christine Lemmer-Webber wrote:
> I am all for these conversations; they are good to have as a society, to
> examine our social foundations in earnest dialogue.  But I think they've
> approached a point on here where they're no longer about Guix
> development, in particular, so probably should be moved off-list.
>

WDYT of starting a list called "guix-off-list" to provide a
place for those who enjoy this kind of discussion?

I do enjoy such discussions sometimes, but not on the same
plate as debug tracebacks or beautiful code examples from
the virtuosos.

I don't mind single-line BTW or FYI or IMO: footnote
references to out-of-thread content if the rest of the post
contributes something and isn't just one line in a full 
quote.

Having a "guix-offlist" would enable a reference like
"IMO:guix-offlist: bitcoin explained by me ;)"

And maybe also a mailing list called "guix-grownups" --
where casual adult language is accepted without triggering
endless complaints.

Coming to some mailing lists these days I sometimes feel
like I've entered a restaurant where the menu is dominated
by allergy and spice concerns.

(I have nothing againt special venues catering to sensitive
minorities, don't get me wrong. What do I mean "minorities" eh? :)

Wonder what George Carlin (R.I.P) would say about all this
:)

-- 
Regards,
Bengt Richter

Re: [bug]: xfce4: xfpm-power-backlight-helper alway let me input password.

[Zhu Zihao]

tumashu  writes:

> i can not run gdm success, but have the problem too when run sddm.

Try put a fontconfig file under /var/lib/sddm/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf

cat > /var/lib/sddm/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf << "EOF"



   /run/current-system/profile/share/fonts/

EOF

And install the fonts in system wide package configuration.

This issue was introduced in the merge of 'core-updates-frozen'. But I
can't find a proper way to fix this. 

-- 
Retrieve my PGP public key:

  gpg --recv-keys D47A9C8B2AE3905B563D9135BE42B352A9F6821F

Zihao


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Re: setting open files limit for daemon processes

[Maxime Devos]

Attila Lendvai schreef op vr 25-02-2022 om 07:55 [+]:
> "The per-process limit is inherited by each process from its parent",
> and Shepherd is the init process. when it spawns a daemon, it inherits
>  its open files limit.
> 
> i have successfully set the limit for the daemon user using:
> 
> (pam-limits-service
>   (list
>     (pam-limits-entry "*" 'both 'nofile 10)))
> 
> and it is applied as observable with:
> 
> su - [daemon user] -c 'ulimit -aHS' -s `which bash`

That might set the limit of the user when that user logins (and hence,
PAM things are run), but I don't see how this changes the limit of
shepherd itself.  I don't think that shepherd interacts with PAM at
all?

My suggestion is to do (setrlimit RLIMIT_NOFILE [...]) inside shepherd
itself -- when shepherd starts, or between 'fork' and 'exec'.  Maybe
an '#:open-file-limit' argument could be added to 'fork+exec-command'?

Greetings,
Maxime


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Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:47:11 +0100
Tissevert  wrote:

> And, how exactly can "sex characteristics" be involved in the kind of
> interactions we're having in this community ?

For the most part, with the notable exception of conferences, one could
wonder the same about age, body size, visible or invisible disability,
ethnicity, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance,
race, caste, color, religion. All things you may never learn about of
people who you interact with online. Even gender expression just makes
it due to gender-associated names and pronouns.

The list ist not meant to be of characteristics that a sane person
might care about. It has to include the insane. Having seen derogatory
comments about Cis-people, I don’t think discrimination based on actual
equipment is that far out.


> If someone here is able to
> discriminate against someone else based on their "sex characteristics"
> (whatever that means) independently from their "gender identity", then I'm
> ready to bet their problems doesn't belong in the Guix community and its usual
> scope and had rather be discussed within the legal framework instead.

Critics of CoCs would point to the legal framework for nasty cases,
anyway.


> Also, why isn't this message part of the other thread[1] ? How is this
> discussion any different ? Am I missing something obvious here ? If so I am
> truly sorry but I re-read Zimoun's message a couple times and I still fail to
> see the difference with Taylan's patch.

The difference is the connection to upstream changes. I think this is
interesting, as Taylan has been accused of trying to get “sex” in behind
the back of the original author. Also, there likely was a lot
discussion with trans-people involved before the change was made there.


It seems like some people here take the inclusion of sex
characteristics to imply that sex characteristics would matter
in a way that denies people with not-matching equipment their
heartfelt identity. Anyone can decide for themselves that their gender
identity and expression shall not depend on what they have been born
with, but you do not get to decide that for all of mankind. The
audience of the CoC does not have a uniform understanding of these
matters.


-- 
Thorsten Wilms 

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[Jonathan McHugh]

February 25, 2022 8:48 AM, "Tissevert"  wrote:

> Are dickpics going to be necessary to sign commits from now on ?

Well, we cant be mandating binary commits now can we?!? This is Guix FFS.

Cmon, if I wanted to be perusing dicks and commits Id be on other mailing lists.

Lets move on. Please.


Jonathan

Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)

[zimoun]

Hi,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 at 08:47, Tissevert  wrote:

> Also, why isn't this message part of the other thread[1] ?

Why it would be the same thread since this proposal is radically
different: it is an update based on upstream version of [1].

1: 

>How is this
> discussion any different ?

Because this discussion is a routine update.  Note the previous update
from 1.3 to 1.4 is from 2018 [2].

It is different because it is not a proposal based on my personal
choices but an update from v1.4 to v2.1 based on a collective text
already adopted by our community, as well by many other communities [3].

2: 
3: 


> Has the OP accidentally missed it by
> any chance ?

What do you mean?


>  And to avoid remaining on the implicit side of things, yes, I do
> oppose.

Thanks for your opinion.  Do you oppose to my proposal because you think
it is inadequate in the light of the other thread you mention?  Or do
you oppose to a text collectively written by a community lead by
Coraline Ada Ehmke and where our community already adopted an earlier
version?


Cheers,
simon