[h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
My husband sent this to me. Has anyone seen this before? Thanks, Catherine Does anyone know where this picture comes from? A fellow on the Armour Archive is wondering. I find the idea of a clearly noble lady tending a forge more than a little jarring . . . **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
Need the URL to the image. I have a suspicion, but would like to verify. Mari 2008/6/18 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My husband sent this to me. Has anyone seen this before? Thanks, Catherine Does anyone know where this picture comes from? A fellow on the Armour Archive is wondering. I find the idea of a clearly noble lady tending a forge more than a little jarring . . . **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
Sorry, I thought the image was imbeded in the e-mail. I'll try again. Catherine In a message dated 6/18/2008 9:34:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Need the URL to the image. I have a suspicion, but would like to verify. Mari 2008/6/18 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My husband sent this to me. Has anyone seen this before? Thanks, Catherine Does anyone know where this picture comes from? A fellow on the Armour Archive is wondering. I find the idea of a clearly noble lady tending a forge more than a little jarring . . . **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
Ah, it probably is, but my GMail is stripping the image out. Too bad. Mari On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:37 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I thought the image was imbeded in the e-mail. I'll try again. Catherine In a message dated 6/18/2008 9:34:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Need the URL to the image. I have a suspicion, but would like to verify. Mari 2008/6/18 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My husband sent this to me. Has anyone seen this before? Thanks, Catherine Does anyone know where this picture comes from? A fellow on the Armour Archive is wondering. I find the idea of a clearly noble lady tending a forge more than a little jarring . . . **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I thought the image was imbeded in the e-mail. I'll try again. I don't think the list allows images or attachments. Can you send us a URL? Like Mari, I have a suspicion. Several, in fact. There are some well-known illuminations of women working a forge, mostly images from moral tales of long-ago good women, or the blacksmith's wife who forged the nails for the crucifixion, or some such. None of them, to my knowledge, are meant to be seen as representing real women blacksmiths. The image of a woman at a forge I see reproduced most (e.g. in some of the Medieval Woman products) is from the allegorical romance Le Roman de la Rose. I'd have to look up the context of the image, but I can assure you the figure is not meant to be realistic. She has other symbolic elements to her dress, too, including a sideless surcote and a bare head with long flowing hair. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Photos of Georgian/Regency dresses
This website got mentioned on another list I subscribe to, and I thought some of you might like to see it. http://www.annegracie.com/writing/costumepage.htm I had no idea bodices could be arranged that way! Your fascinated, Mary Piero Carey ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
Jeb is trying to get the URL from the original poster. I'll forward it as soon as he gets it. Other lists I'm on strip attachments, too. The description you gave (sideless, bare head/long hair) matches the picture he sent me. She is standing in front of the forge with tongs in the fire. Her gown and the skirt of the sideless are a rusty-red color, with the upper part of the sideless in ermine. Cuffs on her gown are dark (black?). Three men are in the foreground hammering on a piece on the anvil. Catherine In a message dated 6/18/2008 9:58:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think the list allows images or attachments. Can you send us a URL? Like Mari, I have a suspicion. Several, in fact. There are some well-known illuminations of women working a forge, mostly images from moral tales of long-ago good women, or the blacksmith's wife who forged the nails for the crucifixion, or some such. None of them, to my knowledge, are meant to be seen as representing real women blacksmiths. The image of a woman at a forge I see reproduced most (e.g. in some of the Medieval Woman products) is from the allegorical romance Le Roman de la Rose. I'd have to look up the context of the image, but I can assure you the figure is not meant to be realistic. She has other symbolic elements to her dress, too, including a sideless surcote and a bare head with long flowing hair. --Robin **Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The description you gave (sideless, bare head/long hair) matches the picture he sent me. She is standing in front of the forge with tongs in the fire. Her gown and the skirt of the sideless are a rusty-red color, with the upper part of the sideless in ermine. Cuffs on her gown are dark (black?). Three men are in the foreground hammering on a piece on the anvil. Yes, that's the one I'm seeing here in the Medieval Woman Book of Days, at November 12. There's a tiny detail of it there, but I know I've seen the full image in some other publications, probably in one of the MW calendars. The Book of Days cites it as Roman de la Rose, Paris, Bibliotheque Sainte-Genevieve, MS 1125, fol. 115, but I believe that is wrong. The latter image (same book, earlier manuscript) is most likely the one seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalarchive/1862182937/ The one you describe (reproduced in the Book of Days) is clearly 15th c. I'm sure I have a better citation for the specific manuscript in one of my other books, but not at my fingertips and no time to hunt right now. In any case, the figure is not real. It is the allegorical figure of Nature, who is described as making children at a forge. In the 15th c. image, she is dressed in symbolic queen costume, but crownless. --Robin feverishly editing MCT vol. 5 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Does anyone in your Costume group know . . .
I wrote: The Book of Days cites it as Roman de la Rose, Paris, Bibliotheque Sainte-Genevieve, MS 1125, fol. 115, but I believe that is wrong. The latter image (same book, earlier manuscript) is most likely the one seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalarchive/1862182937/ Typo, sorry. The Sainte-Genevieve MS is 1126, not 1125. But still not the correct citation for the image you're asking about. Right book, wrong manuscript. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 6/18/2008 10:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JBRMM266 writes: The original poster sent me the URL: _http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_ (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm) If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from Christine de Pizan's City of Women. There are other such examples in that manuscript (like women building a house .) Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge
Susan Farmer wrote: _http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_ (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm) If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from Christine de Pizan's City of Women. There are other such examples in that manuscript (like women building a house .) I wrote a bit earlier that I had found a detail of the image (a close-up of just the lady) in the Medieval Woman Book of Days, attributed to a 14th c. Roman de la Rose. The Roman de la Rose does have a scene in which Dame Nature (an allegorical figure) is described as working at a forge, making new people to replace dead ones. However, the attribution line on the image in the Book of Days was clearly wrong, as this picture was obviously late 15th c. (I posted a link to the actual 14th c. picture, a much earlier rendition of Fortune at the forge.) While I was waiting for that e-mail to come through on the list, I've been chatting with Cathy's husband Jeb, who posed the original question. Here's the gist of what I wrote to him (pertinent bits of several messages tidied up and combined): --- Because the image was misattributed in the book I have, there is a slight possiblity this is not a Roman de la Rose, and thus not Dame Nature, but in any case the costume clearly signals an allegorical or symbolic presentation. So this can't be used as evidence for women blacksmiths, much less women blacksmiths in sideless surcotes with their hair down! For your purposes, though, the rendition of the forge and the blacksmithing tools, techniques, etc. is probably as accurate as any other image from the period. [Then I saw the full image, which shows the rest of the shop, including three men making armor] Having seen the full image, I think now that it is not the Roman de la Rose, but rather a scene from Boccaccio's Livre des cleres et nobles femmes, of which there are quite a few illuminated manuscripts from this period. (I'd put this one around 1480-1500 offhand.) There's a scene in that book of a queen who supervises armourer-making or possibly helps make armour. I don't have the book handy so can't look up the story, but I know I've seen several illuminations of the scene. --- Susan is right that there are a number of unrealistic images of queenly allegorical figures doing craft and building work in the Cite des Dames. (One of my favorites shows a queen doing bricklaying.) I don't recall any scenes of armor-forging in that context, though. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge
I believe there are several Roman de la Rose manuscripts. One was illuminated 1350 France. From 15th century Roman de la Rose http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/gradstudies/eurolit/images/rose.jpg Tapestry Roman de la Rose http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_3_2_6a.html The poem Roman de la Rose was written by Guillaime de Lorris in c1275. It was a popular poem to illustrate. -Original Message- Susan Farmer wrote: _http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_ (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm) If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from Christine de Pizan's City of Women. There are other such examples in that manuscript (like women building a house .) I wrote a bit earlier that I had found a detail of the image (a close-up of just the lady) in the Medieval Woman Book of Days, attributed to a 14th c. Roman de la Rose. The Roman de la Rose does have a scene in which Dame Nature (an allegorical figure) is described as working at a forge, making new people to replace dead ones. However, the attribution line on the image in the Book of Days was clearly wrong, as this picture was obviously late 15th c. (I posted a link to the actual 14th c. picture, a much earlier rendition of Fortune at the forge.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
