[h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein Look....Costume Journal Vol 42...
Hi guys...I sent this to another group in hopes of having a discussion on it, but haven't heard a peep from anyone thereso sorry for the cross posts From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Layering in pursuit of the Holbein LookCostume Journal Vol 42... Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:52:25 -0700 Hi all, I was just reading the article in The Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 42, 2008. I am hoping to generate some discussion but also hoping to hear from the authors...Jane Malcolm-Davies, Caroline Johnson and Ninya Mikhaila. My first question is from Figure 6 on page 27. I just want to confirm what I think I see. I think the wearer is wearing in this (order) a smock, then a kirtle (no stiffening?) then a partially boned pair of bodies which looks like an 'un-strapped' version of the Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina Von Neuberg's corset which is cut off (just at?) the nipple. My second question, is how does one differentiate between a petticoat and a kirtle, (assuming both have attached bodices). Is it just that the kirtle is 'done' in a fashion fabric? Thanks! Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein Look....Costume Journal Vol 42...
Unfortunately for some of us we do not have that journal in our hands. Is there any way to share the images she refers to? ♫ Chiara Francesca -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Saragrace Knauf Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein LookCostume Journal Vol 42... Hi guys...I sent this to another group in hopes of having a discussion on it, but haven't heard a peep from anyone thereso sorry for the cross posts From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Layering in pursuit of the Holbein LookCostume Journal Vol 42... Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:52:25 -0700 Hi all, I was just reading the article in The Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 42, 2008. I am hoping to generate some discussion but also hoping to hear from the authors...Jane Malcolm-Davies, Caroline Johnson and Ninya Mikhaila. My first question is from Figure 6 on page 27. I just want to confirm what I think I see. I think the wearer is wearing in this (order) a smock, then a kirtle (no stiffening?) then a partially boned pair of bodies which looks like an 'un-strapped' version of the Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina Von Neuberg's corset which is cut off (just at?) the nipple. My second question, is how does one differentiate between a petticoat and a kirtle, (assuming both have attached bodices). Is it just that the kirtle is 'done' in a fashion fabric? Thanks! Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein Look....Costume Journal Vol 42...
I'd say most of us do not have the journal in our hands, much as I'd like to. You may also want to post your question here http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=29374273995 We have a lot of members but most of the discussions are attached to the posted photos. MaggiRos On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Chiara Francesca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately for some of us we do not have that journal in our hands. Is there any way to share the images she refers to? Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 ISBN 978-0-9818401-0-9 Available at http://elizabethan.org/compendium/paperback.html or your favorite online bookseller ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein Look....Costume Journal Vol 42...
Hi Saragrace, I have yet to order my copy of the journal, sadly. I've had too much on my plate lately. Have you tried this email group? [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know Ninya is specifically on that list, and often responds to direct queries. Or have you emailed Ninya or Jane directly? Their contact emails should be on The Tudor Tailor web site. Personally, I would love to know the specific answer to your question as well. I just don't have the visual to look at to help answer it from what I have learned. Especially as my understanding of the term petticoat for the early 16th century is different than most people's definition. The Cunnington's in their book state that it originally meant small coat, and later came to mean a skirt by itself, but they don't provide any visuals to help with that definition. At a guess, based on the info in The Tudor Tailor book and from the workshop of theirs I attended, their petticoat is a skirt, usually red (which seems to be common for health beliefs of that time), that has a small upper body garment attached to it (meant to keep the skirts in place? They talked about how it was described in written accounts as having bodies attached, but how that is shaped exactly is conjecture - they based it on a known shape at the time, seen in men's jacket bodies). This is then worn under the main supportive dress known as a kirtle (which in their instructions is partly boned), which then has the gown layer worn over that. This is what I understand, but without knowing your specific image, I don't know if I am in the right area, or if you are discussing something else. Kimiko --- On Sun, 10/19/08, Saragrace Knauf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was just reading the article in The Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 42, 2008. I am hoping to generate some discussion but also hoping to hear from the authors...Jane Malcolm-Davies, Caroline Johnson and Ninya Mikhaila. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein Look....Costume JournalVol 42...
Saragrace, I had the same problem while reading the article. I finally had to go to page 26 where there is a cutaway version of the entire bodice ensemble and actually number them from the text. I think the biggest problem comes from the fact that the innermost garment in period seems to have so many names and so many people fighting for their particular nomenclature :-) Here is what I got: 1. Bottom layer next to skin: Smock (Chemise, shirt, whatever you want to call it. Personally I wish we would agree on a name and WE stick with it through the ages using that word as the definition for whenever an original source uses something else.) 2. The petticote (kirtle... Driving me crazy with name changes here :-) I have no idea about the difference, or if there is one either. Which was a skirt and bodice (un-boned) together that provided necessary underskirt in lieu of hoops 3. The kirtle (boned slightly but with at least 1.25 or more inches free of boning at the neckline which appears higher than that of the Gown itself. The claim here seems to be that the jeweled neckline was temporarily mounted. 4. Then the gown - Unboned. I've spent the day looking through a lot of Tudor paintings books along with masses of Elizabethan. I'm not sure I agree entirely, but I'm planning on continuing to learn until death. I've decided I'm really just a costume mutt. My eyes glaze and I have this compulsion when garb/costume/clothing is mentioned. One reason why I like the depth and breadth of this list. Lovely Volume. I was interested in the Airsaid and particularly the 1617 suite of clothing. I do wish that they had included the underclothing. The body seems to have mummified rather than decayed. Oh well, now we know it exists we can keep an eye out for more publication! Regina Romsey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saragrace Knauf Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Layering in pursuit of the Holbein LookCostume JournalVol 42... Hi all, I was just reading the article in The Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 42, 2008. I am hoping to generate some discussion but also hoping to hear from the authors...Jane Malcolm-Davies, Caroline Johnson and Ninya Mikhaila. My first question is from Figure 6 on page 27. I just want to confirm what I think I see. I think the wearer is wearing in this (order) a smock, then a kirtle (no stiffening?) then a partially boned pair of bodies which looks like an 'un-strapped' version of the Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina Von Neuberg's corset which is cut off (just at?) the nipple. My second question, is how does one differentiate between a petticoat and a kirtle, (assuming both have attached bodices). Is it just that the kirtle is 'done' in a fashion fabric? Thanks! Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
