Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines
Get an old black Singer sewing machine, one that does straight stitch. Cheap, and you can't kill it. A model 201 or 15-91, or 301 slant stitch Hear hear! I adore my Singer 99K, it does everything I want and it's gorgeous too. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines
Not the kind you are thinking of!? Just from the valleys between the hills of West (BG) VA.? (It's a problem with AOL mail.) Catherine -Original Message- From: Rickard, Patty ricka...@muc.edu To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines Either that or she's a valley girl. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:20 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines Cathy R.? Just curious... how come your sentences all end with a .? Is that a PC/Mac issue? == Marjorie Wilser ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
Good Morning All, I am attempting to help a friend who is having some trouble in drafting a sleeve pattern for her 16th dress. Awhile ago I ran into a ‘sleeve head’ drafting tutorial on the net: The document wasn’t really a ‘how to’ on drafting sleeve heads, so much as an explanation of why changes to the curve of the head changed the fit of the sleeve, etc. Having done some Googling, I can’t seem to locate this same site. Anyone have any ideas on where it may be? ~Cherylyn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Gown Doublet for a King's Servant Esquire of The Body?
I'm curious--and not wanting to start a range war or anything--but is the Authentic SCA a different organization from the SCA, Inc.? Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:57 PM, julian wilson smnc...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: [...] I do living history with the Authentic SCA - and have been thinking for some time that I should treat myself to some special clothes suitable for their Courts and Feasts, ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines
I have a 15-91 (from 1951, for a bit of confusion) as my primary machine, and I adore it. Make sure you get the right bobbins, if you go this route. The 15 in my machine's name means it takes Class 15 bobbins. The old metal ones are best, but every JoAnn's sells plastic class 15 bobbins. :) The old straight-stitch machines are great workhorses, to make just about anything you could imagine. If you look, you can find specialty feet that do all sorts of things-- Hemming feet that turn in a tiny hem hold it for the sewing, Gathering feet that put in tiny pleats after a set number of stitches, Bias-feeding feet that help you put bias binding onto a piece of fabric, Buttonholer, etc. I'm currently playing with a hemstitcher, that puts holes into the fabric and pulls the fabric all around to put stitches where needed. :o The throat plate needs to be changed for this one, so the spike that pokes the holes does not damage the machine and to cover the feed dogs. And you can use it a lot while considering if you need other bells whistles. You can kill these machines, but learning how to oil the beastie will make it live nearly forever. Good luck finding a machine that suits you. Oh, and when you are test-driving a machine, make sure you bring some fabric samples; most machines sew pretty well on thin starched fabric like the samples the sellers will offer for your test drive. Ann in CT --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Dianne goo...@comcast.net wrote: Get an old black Singer sewing machine, one that does straight stitch. Cheap, and you can't kill it. A model 201 or 15-91, or 301 slant stitch Hear hear! I adore my Singer 99K, it does everything I want and it's gorgeous too. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Gown Doublet for a King's Servant Esquire of The Body?
Yes, you are quite right, Kimiko. Sorry, everyone, - posting this was a tired man's mistake. Julian Wilson --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Kimiko Small sstormwa...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kimiko Small sstormwa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gown Doublet for a King's Servant Esquire of The Body? To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, 8 October, 2009, 4:24 OOOooops! I think you might want to take this off list. Kimiko From: julian wilson smnc...@yahoo.co.uk To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 4:57:33 PM Subject: [h-cost] Gown Doublet for a King's Servant Esquire of The Body? Debbie, I saw your posts on this List, and am reminded you make historical costumes professionally. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:29 AM, Cherylyn Crill wrote: Good Morning All, I am attempting to help a friend who is having some trouble in drafting a sleeve pattern for her 16th dress. Awhile ago I ran into a ‘sleeve head’ drafting tutorial on the net: The document wasn’t really a ‘how to’ on drafting sleeve heads, so much as an explanation of why changes to the curve of the head changed the fit of the sleeve, etc. Having done some Googling, I can’t seem to locate this same site. Anyone have any ideas on where it may be? ~Cherylyn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines
For a while in the 80s it seemed like fancy computerized sewing machines were a status symbol among my costuming friends. It seemed like they all had to have the latest and greatest (and most expensive) electronic sewing machines out there. Some of their machines did cross stitch almost as nice as mine, so they were very impressed that I did mine by hand. In fact I became known for my handwork. This handwork is only partly because I discovered embroidery, and ethnic surface decoration back in my Hippie days, before some of those folks were born, and partly because I have the patience to recreate it. But it's also because I could never afford such a fancy machine, preferring my old, all-metal machine that did nothing but sew. I learned that I got more control when I held the needle. I learned things that a machine still can't do, like putting the needle in one place and bringing it out another. And I learned to be more content with things that I had than things which money I didn't have could buy. Get a reconditioned workhorse of a machine and it will outlive you. The old straight-stitch machines are great workhorses, to make just about anything you could imagine. If you look, you can find specialty feet that do all sorts of things-- Hemming feet that turn in a tiny hem hold it for the sewing, Gathering feet that put in tiny pleats after a set number of stitches, Bias-feeding feet that help you put bias binding onto a piece of fabric, Buttonholer, etc. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Gown Doublet for a King's Servant Esquire of The Body?
No, it's an informal sub-group of gentles all over the Known World, [with an online Group of that name], who seem to give especial attention raising their standards of authenticity in their hobby of medieval living-history... Maggie, and everyone else on the List, - I could have sworn I'd sent that e-mail privately, too. Many apologies. Please disregard the content. Julian Wilson --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Maggie maggi...@gmail.com wrote: I'm curious--and not wanting to start a range war or anything--but is the Authentic SCA a different organization from the SCA, Inc.? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
This is true, so I guess any historic sleeve tutorial would be appreciated as well! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com wrote: From: Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:15 AM Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:29 AM, Cherylyn Crill wrote: Good Morning All, I am attempting to help a friend who is having some trouble in drafting a sleeve pattern for her 16th dress. Awhile ago I ran into a ‘sleeve head’ drafting tutorial on the net: The document wasn’t really a ‘how to’ on drafting sleeve heads, so much as an explanation of why changes to the curve of the head changed the fit of the sleeve, etc. Having done some Googling, I can’t seem to locate this same site. Anyone have any ideas on where it may be? ~Cherylyn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
The problem is making the sleeve head match the armseye. You should be able to do this with a flexible ruler and some graph paper. Someone who has taken the sleeves workshop at Costume College (which I did but have no useful notes from) might be able to elaborate on the process. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.comwrote: This is true, so I guess any historic sleeve tutorial would be appreciated as well! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com wrote: From: Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:15 AM Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
*nods* Yeppers, that was why I was interested in finding the original website, it discussed some of the 'fit' issues and how certain modifications (depth of curve, width of curve, etc.) made a difference in this. --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Maggie maggi...@gmail.com wrote: From: Maggie maggi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:59 AM The problem is making the sleeve head match the armseye. You should be able to do this with a flexible ruler and some graph paper. Someone who has taken the sleeves workshop at Costume College (which I did but have no useful notes from) might be able to elaborate on the process. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.comwrote: This is true, so I guess any historic sleeve tutorial would be appreciated as well! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com wrote: From: Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:15 AM Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines
AND if you're addicted to magnetic pin-and-stuff-holders (like I am) your computerized machine will fry from the magnet. Ugh. Give me the old machines, any time. LuAnn Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 09:17:33 -0700 From: kay...@gmail.com To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines For a while in the 80s it seemed like fancy computerized sewing machines were a status symbol among my costuming friends. It seemed like they all had to have the latest and greatest (and most expensive) electronic sewing machines out there. Some of their machines did cross stitch almost as nice as mine, so they were very impressed that I did mine by hand. In fact I became known for my handwork. This handwork is only partly because I discovered embroidery, and ethnic surface decoration back in my Hippie days, before some of those folks were born, and partly because I have the patience to recreate it. But it's also because I could never afford such a fancy machine, preferring my old, all-metal machine that did nothing but sew. I learned that I got more control when I held the needle. I learned things that a machine still can't do, like putting the needle in one place and bringing it out another. And I learned to be more content with things that I had than things which money I didn't have could buy. Get a reconditioned workhorse of a machine and it will outlive you. The old straight-stitch machines are great workhorses, to make just about anything you could imagine. If you look, you can find specialty feet that do all sorts of things-- Hemming feet that turn in a tiny hem hold it for the sewing, Gathering feet that put in tiny pleats after a set number of stitches, Bias-feeding feet that help you put bias binding onto a piece of fabric, Buttonholer, etc. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Magnets and machines
LuAnn-- There is one exception to your statement--Bernina. Bernina computerized machines do not use magnetic memory, and magnets will not harm them. I've tried it, and it's true. Kim -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of LuAnn Mason Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:21 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines AND if you're addicted to magnetic pin-and-stuff-holders (like I am) your computerized machine will fry from the magnet. Ugh. Give me the old machines, any time. LuAnn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Magnets and machines
Oh, good to know! Bernina was always my favorite, and I'm in the market for a new machine. LuAnn From: kba...@cableone.net To: h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:25:06 -0500 Subject: [h-cost] Magnets and machines LuAnn-- There is one exception to your statement--Bernina. Bernina computerized machines do not use magnetic memory, and magnets will not harm them. I've tried it, and it's true. Kim -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of LuAnn Mason Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:21 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Query on sewing machines AND if you're addicted to magnetic pin-and-stuff-holders (like I am) your computerized machine will fry from the magnet. Ugh. Give me the old machines, any time. LuAnn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
I suspect you might mean this one? http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/Documentation/SleeveClass.pdf Guenièvre On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.comwrote: *nods* Yeppers, that was why I was interested in finding the original website, it discussed some of the 'fit' issues and how certain modifications (depth of curve, width of curve, etc.) made a difference in this. --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Maggie maggi...@gmail.com wrote: From: Maggie maggi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:59 AM The problem is making the sleeve head match the armseye. You should be able to do this with a flexible ruler and some graph paper. Someone who has taken the sleeves workshop at Costume College (which I did but have no useful notes from) might be able to elaborate on the process. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.com wrote: This is true, so I guess any historic sleeve tutorial would be appreciated as well! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com wrote: From: Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:15 AM Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide)
*ding ding ding* Yes! Thank you! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Guenievre de Monmarche guenie...@erminespot.com wrote: From: Guenievre de Monmarche guenie...@erminespot.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 10:49 AM I suspect you might mean this one? http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/Documentation/SleeveClass.pdf Guenièvre On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.comwrote: *nods* Yeppers, that was why I was interested in finding the original website, it discussed some of the 'fit' issues and how certain modifications (depth of curve, width of curve, etc.) made a difference in this. --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Maggie maggi...@gmail.com wrote: From: Maggie maggi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:59 AM The problem is making the sleeve head match the armseye. You should be able to do this with a flexible ruler and some graph paper. Someone who has taken the sleeves workshop at Costume College (which I did but have no useful notes from) might be able to elaborate on the process. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Cherylyn Crill cherylyncr...@yahoo.com wrote: This is true, so I guess any historic sleeve tutorial would be appreciated as well! --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com wrote: From: Marjorie Wilser the3t...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve Drafting (Information Guide) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 9:15 AM Admittedly not a 16th c specialist, but my impression is that sleeve heads/shapes, etc. were way different than our current set-ins, and that set-ins may be a much later construction. So a modern tutorial might not be ideal. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Berina sewing machines
Anyone here familiar with the model 830? There is an auction for one here in Wisconsin. Opening bid is $20. Henry W. Osier Chairman, Costume-Con 28 May 7 to May 10, 2010 www.CC28.org Look for our fan page on Facebook! And on Twitter: CostumeCon28 Got questions? Join the CostumeCon Yahoo group! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Berina sewing machines
The 830 is an older model, it is NOT electronic or computerized. However, everyone who owns one LOVES it. I've known owners to put a new motor in an old 830 rather than buy a newer Bernina. It must be a real workhorse. If you are considering buying this one, see if it has lots of presser feet--they are getting harder to find. And if you don't know the history of the machine, I wouldn't bid much over that $20. It could need costly service or repairs. Kim -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of cc2010m...@cs.com Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 4:45 PM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Berina sewing machines Anyone here familiar with the model 830? There is an auction for one here in Wisconsin. Opening bid is $20. Henry W. Osier Chairman, Costume-Con 28 May 7 to May 10, 2010 www.CC28.org Look for our fan page on Facebook! And on Twitter: CostumeCon28 Got questions? Join the CostumeCon Yahoo group! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Herald's Renaissance Dress in Italy
Quoting sunshine.k.buch...@kp.org: *blush* should've checked on the spelling of Birbari's name, thank you for the correction! I like her for a couple reasons, although you are right; she is limited. I appreciate the time she spends analyzing styles (like the sheer overdress) that in the survey books are glossed over in favor of the more standard Italian Renaissance look. From a purely academic standpoint I admire the time she takes to argue that you _can_ use Italian paintings c. 1460-80 as an accurate portrayal of construction. While with Van der Wyden and the northern painters that seems like an obvious statement, for the Italian style I thought it was an assumption worth questioning. Best of luck acquiring a copy! Thanks! That is a very good point about Birbari. And I got a good hint there on how to do the sleeves in the Cossa paintings (those things that looks sorta like leg-o-mutton sleeves). susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Berina sewing machines
On Oct 8, 2009, at 2:45 PM, cc2010m...@cs.com wrote: Anyone here familiar with the model 830? There is an auction for one here in Wisconsin. Opening bid is $20. The Bernina Record 830 is a tank. I think Karen and Ricky use them as shop machines. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
