Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
In a message dated 11/14/2006 7:00:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It was interesting to see them dye the fibre though...when it first came out of the dye pot it was yellow, then once rung out of liquid and probably exposed to the air turned blue before their eyes! Discussion? That is how a vat dye works. The most common vat dye is, of course, indigo (also found in woad). The dye is not water soluble--needs to be chemically reduced to dissolve in water. The fabric is dipped in the vat, then as it is lifted out and exposed to air, the dyestuff re-oxidizes, and the blue color forms. Tyrian purple was also a vat dye. As the murex were killed in the process, the species was just about wiped out, but a similar dye, from a related species, is still used in central America. There, they have figured out a way to make the shellfish give up its dye without killing it. Since the color forms in the fibers, it is very fast. It is true that you get color rinsing out or rubbing off at first, but that is generally excess dye. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
What started this train of thought for me was this: http://www.tekhelet.com/brochure.htm . I didn't realise the importance of blue to the Hebrews or if there was any significance to women. I did a search on biblical Judith and found a quote from the Book of Judith that said she cast off her blue widow's veil and left the city, her beauty was a surprise to the elders Judith is considered a heroine but the whole story is by most thought to be fictional by many. Judith is important in that she represents the people overcoming their invaders. When I did a cursory search for Judith paintings, there was an overwhelming number of them that in some way, she was wearing a distinct blue or shades of it, even if just a fold or stripe in a layer. Italians subscribed to the yellow-is-Jewish thing as well, she wore nothing on her head - likely relevant to the story of her casting off her veil. She doesn't for the most part look any different than any other Italian woman, it seemed the bulk of the non-Italian, 16th c. paintings didn't use this blue indicator however - Cranach being the most noticable in this group. I really don't know how to interpret this one. It would be a fascinating research... just one I don't have the time to sink my teeth into at the moment. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 Wow! This stirred up a really vague memory of an article I read, probably 15 years ago about a special blue dye--if memory serves, it came from the Mediterranean, and was, similar to Tyrian purple, a shell-fish based vat dye. And it was used by the Hebrews and, again if I'm remembering right, had a ritual significance. If it's shellfish-based, it would be unlikely to be used by the Hebrews, at least not post-Sinai, as it would be considered unclean per the kosher law in Leviticus. snipSo, depending on where and when the art was produced, you might see pointed hats, or yellow badges, or stripes, or other devices to designate Jewish characters -- snipIn medieval Christian art, ultramarine blue has long been associated with the Virgin -- usually in her mantle or robe -- because it was the most expensive available pigment. snip but I don't know if that was a Jewish thing in particular or just an important person designator. You are probably thinking about the single thread of blue included in snip I'm not aware of any special significance of blue in regards to women. It's probably something from the Christian symbolism snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
Dyes from indigo are similar - indican (indoxyl + glucose), which is colorless, goes into solution (traditionally by using stale urine for the ammonia to make the solution basic), the glucose is bacterially digested, the soluble colorless chemical travels to the fiber, the indoxyls combine with oxygen while in the fiber to give indigotin things turn blue! -absolutely magic! J. N. Lyles (The Art Craft of Natural Dyeing) says that the snails seem to produce varying concentrations of indigotin dibromoindigo(more reddish purple). The snail would have the pigments, which are not soluble in water - the caustic soda boiling water would make alkaline conditions to release them to go into the fiber, the air would provide the oxygen to bring out the color set it in the fiber. More magic! Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kelly Grant Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [h-cost] Blue on Judith Funny how this comes up today! Last night on 'Naked Archeaologist' the show was about the colour blue in ancient times. How it was produced from the snail. The trick to getting blue from the snail was to expose the dye to sunlight. The ultra violet light produces a very vivid blue, if not exposed the dye will come out purple. I thought it was fasinating. There is also quite a controversy in some sects of the Jewish faith over the use of snails or cuttlefish to produce the dye. The archeaological evidence suggests snails though, due to the amount of snail shells at dye sites. How they suggest the dye is made rotten dried up snail caustic soda boiling water sunlight I am not a dyer, so I don't say this would work, I also don't know the quantities of each. It was interesting to see them dye the fibre though...when it first came out of the dye pot it was yellow, then once rung out of liquid and probably exposed to the air turned blue before their eyes! Discussion? Kelly An insolent reply from a polite person is a bad sign. Hippocrates (c.460-c.370 bc), Greek physician From: Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. _ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more...then map the best route! Check out Live Local today! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
Funny how this comes up today! Last night on 'Naked Archeaologist' the show was about the colour blue in ancient times. How it was produced from the snail. The trick to getting blue from the snail was to expose the dye to sunlight. The ultra violet light produces a very vivid blue, if not exposed the dye will come out purple. I thought it was fasinating. There is also quite a controversy in some sects of the Jewish faith over the use of snails or cuttlefish to produce the dye. The archeaological evidence suggests snails though, due to the amount of snail shells at dye sites. How they suggest the dye is made rotten dried up snail caustic soda boiling water sunlight I am not a dyer, so I don't say this would work, I also don't know the quantities of each. It was interesting to see them dye the fibre though...when it first came out of the dye pot it was yellow, then once rung out of liquid and probably exposed to the air turned blue before their eyes! Discussion? Kelly An insolent reply from a polite person is a bad sign. Hippocrates (c.460-c.370 bc), Greek physician From: Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. _ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more then map the best route! Check out Live Local today! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
In a message dated 11/13/2006 9:10:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To split off from the actual topic, I recently had a tv show on in the background whilst working, and caught a few details about the dye used to produce the tekhelet blue as prescribed in the Torah described in the Talmud. The animal used for it, the hillazon, is now a mystery, but the cuttlefish has become a popular suspect. They showed dye made from the cuttlefish and various other suspects, which was quite beautiful (lavender/sky blue). Thanks--that must be what I was thinking of. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
Maybe something of the same chemical reaction as when dyeing with woad or indigo? My book on Red Dyes: Cochineal, Madder and Murex Purple, notes a number of things regarding the use of mollusk secretions as a dye stuff. There are, for instance, several types of mollusks used for this, and they occur in different parts of the world AND produce different shades. There's a bluish one called purpura hyacintha and a more reddish one called purpura blatta or Tyrian purple. According to the book, we don't have a lot of details about the actual process used in making ancient colors like Tyrian purple, although it sounds like it started with the extraction of the snail, removal of the gland in question, and then, any one of a number of possibilities. Too much history and war and destruction of dye works in the last 3000 years, I guess! ;o( Further on in the same section, the author discusses purple dyes that occur in the western hemisphere, and in that area, I found something that sounds much like what you're talking about. In 1909, an anthropologist wrote about mollusk dyeing along the Pacific Coast of Mexico, and mentions: ' When the cotton thread is moistened with the color secretion it first turns green. Then, when it is dried by the rays of the sun, the green turns purple and becomes permanent.' Interestingly, the section closes with a brief discussion on just what we mean when we say purple, since it's really not one single color, but rather an entire ranges of shades. Some of them are virtually blue, others, much more distinctly red. A number of very old texts (such as the Old Testament) make clear distinctions between red-purple and blue-purple. There's even some 2nd century apocrypha describing Mary (mother of Jesus) being specifically honored in being chosen to spin the purple-red and scarlet-red fibers (I assume wool or silk)--I'm assuming as a young woman, because when she returns the finished yarns/threads to the priest, there's a bit of foreshadowing when the priest tells her that she will be blessed among all the people of the world. (The same bit of apocrypha mentions the gold, the white, the flax, the silk, the dark blue, the scarlet red, and the purple red, so something pretty expensive was going on;o) --Sue in Montana p.s. Oh, yeah, the book I mentioned is The Red Dyes: Cochineal, Madder, and Murex Purple, and it's written by Gosta Sandberg. Out of print, I believe, but a fascinating read. - Original Message - From: Kelly Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:59 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Blue on Judith Funny how this comes up today! Last night on 'Naked Archeaologist' the show was about the colour blue in ancient times. How it was produced from the snail. The trick to getting blue from the snail was to expose the dye to sunlight. The ultra violet light produces a very vivid blue, if not exposed the dye will come out purple. I thought it was fasinating. There is also quite a controversy in some sects of the Jewish faith over the use of snails or cuttlefish to produce the dye. The archeaological evidence suggests snails though, due to the amount of snail shells at dye sites. How they suggest the dye is made rotten dried up snail caustic soda boiling water sunlight I am not a dyer, so I don't say this would work, I also don't know the quantities of each. It was interesting to see them dye the fibre though...when it first came out of the dye pot it was yellow, then once rung out of liquid and probably exposed to the air turned blue before their eyes! Discussion? Kelly An insolent reply from a polite person is a bad sign. Hippocrates (c.460-c.370 bc), Greek physician From: Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. _ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more.then map the best route! Check out Live Local today! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
Here's another useful page on tekhelet: http://www.jewishweaving.com/blog/ Suddenly relevant to me as I was thinking of attending a tallit-making class soon; my oldest son received his grandfather's tallit at his bar mitzvah, but my youngest will need one in a couple of years, and it might take me that long to make one if I choose to do that ... in part because I would want to study the traditions involved, including the blue in the tefillin strings. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Blue on Judith
On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. While bantering the topic, I came to find that a certain shade of blue is important to the Jewish culture. I thought that the use of blue on the Judith figures in the paintings marked her visually as a Jewess. Someone suggested that it was not relevant in that regard but connected it to the blue veil of the Virgin - that didn't ring right for me, since Judith is a widow. Rootling a little more, I found that she wore a blue widow's veil - I didn't know that a widow's veil was blue in any culture I just assumed they were always black, so this was news to me. So, is this representation of blue because she is a Jewess, or because she is a widow? And, because of the connection of blue, has anyone noticed that blue is not a well represented colour amongst the Christian nobility? It occurs on occasion in Italian art, according to my memory, I haven't yet done a serious survey to make any real conclusions. Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert (Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
In a message dated 11/13/2006 7:51:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. Wow! This stirred up a really vague memory of an article I read, probably 15 years ago about a special blue dye--if memory serves, it came from the Mediterranean, and was, similar to Tyrian purple, a shell-fish based vat dye. And it was used by the Hebrews and, again if I'm remembering right, had a ritual significance. As I said, my memories of the article are very vague--maybe someone will be able to fill in. Am I even right, that the dye in question was blue? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow! This stirred up a really vague memory of an article I read, probably 15 years ago about a special blue dye--if memory serves, it came from the Mediterranean, and was, similar to Tyrian purple, a shell-fish based vat dye. And it was used by the Hebrews and, again if I'm remembering right, had a ritual significance. If it's shellfish-based, it would be unlikely to be used by the Hebrews, at least not post-Sinai, as it would be considered unclean per the kosher law in Leviticus. It's worth noting, though, that actual Jewish practice may or may not be relevant to color symbolism in Christian painting. Time and place are particularly relevant here. In some Christian art, Jews are signified by elements of clothing that were designated to Jews by law in a particular place at a particular time. So, depending on where and when the art was produced, you might see pointed hats, or yellow badges, or stripes, or other devices to designate Jewish characters -- but not all at the same time or place, and the same elements might mean something quite different in another school of art. Blue is a traditionally Jewish color (the Israeli flag echoes that), but I can't recall hearing that this is apparent in Christian art, though perhaps at some time and place it was. In medieval Christian art, ultramarine blue has long been associated with the Virgin -- usually in her mantle or robe -- because it was the most expensive available pigment. (That particular shade is distinct from the woad/indigo blue that was available for clothing.) For the same reason, artists in various periods used ultramarine blue to designate certain saints, kings, or important figures in paintings. I remember noticing significant use of ultramarine blue at an exhibit of paintings by the Gentilischis (both father and daughter), and they painted a lot of Judiths and other Biblical heroines, but I don't know if that was a Jewish thing in particular or just an important person designator. By contrast, their Jewish heroines often had turban-like headwraps, fringes, and other elements of dress that clearly meant to mark them as Jews/Biblical characters. But now I am way out of my depth, as I don't have much familiarity with color symbolism in Italian Renaissance or Baroque art. Someone else may have a better clue here. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
To split off from the actual topic, I recently had a tv show on in the background whilst working, and caught a few details about the dye used to produce the tekhelet blue as prescribed in the Torah described in the Talmud. The animal used for it, the hillazon, is now a mystery, but the cuttlefish has become a popular suspect. They showed dye made from the cuttlefish and various other suspects, which was quite beautiful (lavender/sky blue). I was fascinated, and wished that I'd been able to pay closer attention (can't quite remember the name of the show, either--possibly the Naked Archaeologist on History Int'l?). Anyway, the reason it sprang to mind is that the blue that all of the suspects they offered for the mysterious hillazon produced dye that looked nothing whatsoever like the typical lapis blue used in illuminations/paintings. That means little, as paint colors don't directly reflect fabric colors, but there you go. The color was obtainable by available paints, but it's not used; I have, however, seen a painting where the tekhelet color was combined with fringe, though the color may have just been a coincidence there! Rambling, now. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Blue on Judith
On another list I am on, a topic coming up regarding the relevance the colour blue is to Jewish women came up, relative to the Book of Judith and all the spin off paintings it has created particularly in Italian ren paintings. Wow! This stirred up a really vague memory of an article I read, probably 15 years ago about a special blue dye--if memory serves, it came from the Mediterranean, and was, similar to Tyrian purple, a shell-fish based vat dye. And it was used by the Hebrews and, again if I'm remembering right, had a ritual significance. I was channel-skimming at a friend's this past weekend, and caught part of a show called Naked Archaologist that was discussing a snail-based blue dye. In the section I saw, the show host was talking with someone who had been working on reconstructing the dye recipe based on some comments in the Talmud (or the commentaries on the Talmud, I'm not sure which). I think this show was either on History International or one of the Discovery Channel spin-offs. If it's History International, odds are it'll be rerun. I'll check next week while cat-sitting and see if I can find it again. Leah ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
