Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
I remember reading that it was early 1600s but I am not 100% sure of the year 20. It was list in either Elizabethan or Jacobean. De -Original Message- At 00:02 06/05/2008, you wrote: I think it was from the Museum of London site. The pocket I believe said that it was listed at about 1620. There are very few pockets from pre1600s. Presently I can not find the site. The embroidery seems very 18th century to me - are you sure it was 1620? I have looked at a large number of pockets, and pictures of, for a small project I am working on, and have never seen one dated that early. Some of the MoL items are not always dated accurately, or with a very wide range of dates, as I have found while working there, as a volunteer. Suzi De -Original Message- I really like that pocket and would be interested in embroidering a replica. I couldn't back out of the link to find the page with the pocket description, date, materials, etc. Could someone please direct me to that part of the site? Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
I really like that pocket and would be interested in embroidering a replica. I couldn't back out of the link to find the page with the pocket description, date, materials, etc. Could someone please direct me to that part of the site? Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
I think it was from the Museum of London site. The pocket I believe said that it was listed at about 1620. There are very few pockets from pre1600s. Presently I can not find the site. De -Original Message- I really like that pocket and would be interested in embroidering a replica. I couldn't back out of the link to find the page with the pocket description, date, materials, etc. Could someone please direct me to that part of the site? Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
At 00:02 06/05/2008, you wrote: I think it was from the Museum of London site. The pocket I believe said that it was listed at about 1620. There are very few pockets from pre1600s. Presently I can not find the site. The embroidery seems very 18th century to me - are you sure it was 1620? I have looked at a large number of pockets, and pictures of, for a small project I am working on, and have never seen one dated that early. Some of the MoL items are not always dated accurately, or with a very wide range of dates, as I have found while working there, as a volunteer. Suzi De -Original Message- I really like that pocket and would be interested in embroidering a replica. I couldn't back out of the link to find the page with the pocket description, date, materials, etc. Could someone please direct me to that part of the site? Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
Wikipedia gives this information about the site: VADS (Visual Arts Data Service) is a UK organisation that provides digital images and other visual arts resources free and copyright cleared for use in UK higher education and further education. It has provided services to the academic community for 11 years, and has built up a portfolio of visual art collections comprising over 100,000 images. VADS is based at the University College for the Creative Arts at Farnham. Perhaps you could try writing the organization about the source? --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On May 5, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Julie wrote: I really like that pocket and would be interested in embroidering a replica. I couldn't back out of the link to find the page with the pocket description, date, materials, etc. Could someone please direct me to that part of the site? Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 10:40:51 -0700 From: Cynthia J Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain Hi all! Got a question I was hoping you good folks could help me with. How did Italian Ren women carry their pouches if not in hand? Did they wear a belt of some sort? Carry it under the gown, accessible through a dress slit? Any advice greatly appreciated! :-) much thanks, Arlys, clueless in An Tir My pet theory is that noblewomen didn't wear pouches at all, not the way we seem to want to in the SCA. They didn't do their own shopping for the most part, and they didn't go anywhere without people to carry stuff for them, so why would they need them? They didn't have spare change/car keys/mobile phones etc that they needed to keep close to their persons. Similarly, if you were of a class where you might be going to the markets etc you'd probably have a basket with you, so you could just put your purse in that. There are very few instances where women are depicted wearing purses or pouches (they're a bit more common on men), apart from the 13th century, where we're usually told that this are almonieres (or some variant spelling), used for dispensing alms. This is not very handy, of course, if you do want somewhere to carry your car keys around. In which case I'm also rather fond of the 'worn under the gown, accessible through a pocket slit' approach. There is a certain amount of evidence for this, although not really Italian Renn. evidence. Claire/Angharad ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
Thanks! That is exactly what I needed! :-) Arlys On Sat, 3 May 2008 13:59:13 -0500 otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. Though here http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat%27s%20Soccaccia.html they seem to be on the outside. Late 1400s there are some paintings that show that the pouch is worn under the over garb and access was as with the pocket. 1. Take with grain o' salt as I have not thoroughly researched this. 2. Please note that this is not a SCA list and some here might not know what SCA is. :) 3. Have you asked on the Italian Ren yahoo groups list? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming/ De -Original Message- Hi all! Got a question I was hoping you good folks could help me with. How did Italian Ren women carry their pouches if not in hand? Did they wear a belt of some sort? Carry it under the gown, accessible through a dress slit? Any advice greatly appreciated! :-) much thanks, Arlys, clueless in An Tir ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
Not a bad theory but it does have a wee bit o' problem with it. Though I am sure that the probability of most noble women in the Italian States had the merchant come to them (early rendition of the home shopping network. :) ), probably from time to time they went out to shop. For the big expenditures they would probably have had to have their sponse or head of household send the money and make the final sale or if they were the head (widow, courtesan, lady of the evening, etc..)they would make arrangements. Even so, I believe that they would have to carry some money for emergencies, on the spot small transactions therefore they would need a pouch of a sorts. As for putting a pouch in a basket...wellthat is asking for it to be stolen. From paintings it would appear that people liked to keep their money close and a basket is not close enough. :) They may not have carried cell phones and the modern stuff normally carried in a purse but there were probably small items carried. This statement is mostly based on the early 1500s German multi-pocket purse. Most times when I have heard someone say that a woman is wearing an alms pouch in the picture (even if it does not look like an alms pouch) it is based on what they have been told that women do not wear pouches Perhaps there are few paintings with women wearing pouches is that it is probably under thier skirts. IMO, I have seen enough Italian paintings from the Renaissance that gives me the impression that the pouch under at least the out garment was a common practice, even for the noble woman. Again, I have not done any strong research in this area so it is more conjecture then hard fact. De aka in SCA: Delis Alms (Calontir)(Friese) or (alt)Fiordelisia Dragano da Parma (N. Italia) (alt)Arian verch Gwydion (Wales) (alt) Sandrine D'Avalon (Burgundy) (alt) Audaelfr Almsveig (Norse) -Original Message- My pet theory is that noblewomen didn't wear pouches at all, not the way we seem to want to in the SCA. They didn't do their own shopping for the most part, and they didn't go anywhere without people to carry stuff for them, so why would they need them? They didn't have spare change/car keys/mobile phones etc that they needed to keep close to their persons. Similarly, if you were of a class where you might be going to the markets etc you'd probably have a basket with you, so you could just put your purse in that. There are very few instances where women are depicted wearing purses or pouches (they're a bit more common on men), apart from the 13th century, where we're usually told that this are almonieres (or some variant spelling), used for dispensing alms. This is not very handy, of course, if you do want somewhere to carry your car keys around. In which case I'm also rather fond of the 'worn under the gown, accessible through a pocket slit' approach. There is a certain amount of evidence for this, although not really Italian Renn. evidence. Claire/Angharad _ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
Hi all! Got a question I was hoping you good folks could help me with. How did Italian Ren women carry their pouches if not in hand? Did they wear a belt of some sort? Carry it under the gown, accessible through a dress slit? Any advice greatly appreciated! :-) much thanks, Arlys, clueless in An Tir ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches
If you are talking about 1500s the you might look for pocket pouches. http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/images/PHS/floral_pocket.jpg To my understanding these were wore under their skirts. It is believed that the skirts had a slit in them for easy access or in some cases where the pocket is between the under skirt and the over skirt, the over skirt would be hiked up for access. Though here http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat%27s%20Soccaccia.html they seem to be on the outside. Late 1400s there are some paintings that show that the pouch is worn under the over garb and access was as with the pocket. 1. Take with grain o' salt as I have not thoroughly researched this. 2. Please note that this is not a SCA list and some here might not know what SCA is. :) 3. Have you asked on the Italian Ren yahoo groups list? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming/ De -Original Message- Hi all! Got a question I was hoping you good folks could help me with. How did Italian Ren women carry their pouches if not in hand? Did they wear a belt of some sort? Carry it under the gown, accessible through a dress slit? Any advice greatly appreciated! :-) much thanks, Arlys, clueless in An Tir ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
