Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
After all, they made bustle gowns out of kimonos, y'know. I'm sure you meant kimono fabric. There's hardly enough material in one kimono to make a 2005 dress, let alone anything more voluminous. Nope. I meant Kimonos...picked apart and re sewn. There's an example of this very thing in the Kyoto bookpage 291 in the big 1 volume book. And anyway, there's about just enough fabric on a roll of kimono fabric to make one kimono, so it doesn't make a big difference (except having to deal with seams). And the pattern is specifically designed so that the center back seam will have the L R halves of a design. Frequently the design continues on the front panels. The collar sleeves might also be incorp'd into the all-over design. The skill of the kimono designer is in dyeing yardage with the all-over design firmly in mind. Careful cutting on the part of the western costumer can make fabulous use of these larger designs. A quick stroll thru the kimono dept of Takashimaya will convince you. You buy the 14m length and they tailor it for you. When I lived in Tokyo I spent many a weekend day seeking out fabric shops for japanese silk fabrics. Scarce as hen's teeth! The yardage shops sell silks in minuscule amounts for doll makers. They are unprepared for 6 meter buys. Heck, I couldnt even find a roll of silk brocade in a Japanese design with that much on it! Good thing there's flea markets at temples shrines all over town. There are several styles of kimono, and in the 1880s were even more. Other kimono facts: The garment someone attributed to geisha that has long sleeves is not for geisha, it's for Maiko (pretty child) an apprentice geisha. There is a modern kimono variant, called furosode (wave sleeve) worn by unmarried ladies to festivals like Shichi-Go-San or New Years, in spring to Sakura parties (cherry blossom) and in summer to the Hana-bi (fire-flowers) fireworks displays. Supposedly the sleeves are so beautiful that one need but wave the sleeve to catch a man. The wedding kimono style is Uchikake, longer wider with longer furosode style sleeves. Mine is embroidered with several Phoenix. The shinto wedding kimono is pure white (shiromoku = pure white). I have a regency style jacket that I made from an obi. Doesnt take much! A maru style obi runs roughly 5 yds and 24 wide (folded longways). Other obi styles are smaller or have less of the fancy pattern. Someone mentioned menswear as a yardage source. The kamishimo is sadly out of fashion, as are the samurai who wore them with hakama men's kimono. Never saw one at the flea markets. (Yes, I was looking every weekend.) Western 1880s fashions appeared frequently in Tokyo on Japanese ladies. Happily, the fashion was for coordinating fabrics. I have several hand colored 1860-1880 Japanese woodcuts illustrating this. Kayta, you're welcome to come paw thru my kimonos, obi japanese costume books museum catalogs. Others are welcome, too. You've got my email address. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
After all, they made bustle gowns out of kimonos, y'know. I'm sure you meant kimono fabric. There's hardly enough material in one kimono to make a 2005 dress, let alone anything more voluminous. Nope. I meant Kimonos...picked apart and re sewn. There's an example of this very thing in the Kyoto bookpage 291 in the big 1 volume book. And anyway, there's about just enough fabric on a roll of kimono fabric to make one kimono, so it doesn't make a big difference (except having to deal with seams). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
At 18:21 27/08/2005, you wrote: Hi, Someone wants me to make her a Victorian dress for her wedding. She would like me to use Sari fabric. Now I am wondering if they used sari fabric in the Victorian era for dresses. I am not sure she really cares but I'd like to know what I am talking about. Greetings, Deredere I know that saris were definitely used in the early 19th century, for what we call Regency dresses. I also know that Kashmir shawls, (and Paisley) were used to make dresses in the mid to later Victorian period, but I don't know whether saris were used. I'm sorry - that's not terribly helpful. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
India imports have a long history in Britain (after all, India was a British colony), and even the US. (When I was working on _Fashions of the Gilded Age_, for 1877-1882, I came across a recommendation to buy a popular style of striped summer silk at the India stores in a _Harper's Bazar_ column called New York Fashions. The assumption was that everyone already knew where to find the India stores.) Sheer fabrics, both cottons and silks, have also been summer and evening perennials since the late 18th century at least. As long you have enough fabric--and for some periods and styles it can be combined with another fabric--you're probably OK. Even a rather foreign-looking pattern is OK; I've seen some definitely Indian-looking textile patterns on European, UK, and US dresses in museum catalogs. The influence goes both ways, too. The Indians have long manufactured, on their own or by commission, textiles designed to sell well in foreign markets. And sari textile patterns, even those for Indian use, are by no means static. I once saw an exhibition of saris at the Asian museum in San Francisco. They were arranged in chronological order, and you could see the style changes and European influences very clearly. For example, here were a number of very Art Nouveau saris from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. My favorite in the whole exhibit was an exquisite Art Nouveau sari with a border of Victrolas, the type with the horn. The bases of the Victrolas were lined up with the horns exploding from them like flowers. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming http://www.lavoltapress.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 8/29/2005 10:49:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone wants me to make her a Victorian dress for her wedding. She would like me to use Sari fabric. Now I am wondering if they used sari fabric in the Victorian era for dresses. I am not sure she really cares but I'd like to know what I am talking about. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
Ah you said it for me. Old court kimonas were HUGE having acres of fabric in them and many layers. Bice On 8/29/05, otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depends on which era the Kimono came from and style. Some Kimonos have trains with long wide sleeves. Modern kimonos usually don't have that much but 188o they did. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
Take a look at Kurosawa's RAN or THRONE OF BLOOD. Yards and yards! --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer -Original Message- From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Aug 29, 2005 4:58 PM To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses After all, they made bustle gowns out of kimonos, y'know. I'm sure you meant kimono fabric. There's hardly enough material in one kimono to make a 2005 dress, let alone anything more voluminous. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com \\\ -@@\\\ 7 ))) ((( ) (( /\ /---\)) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
At 22:41 29/08/2005, you wrote: Depends on which era the Kimono came from and style. Some Kimonos have trains with long wide sleeves. Modern kimonos usually don't have that much but 188o they did. De -Original Message- After all, they made bustle gowns out of kimonos, y'know. I'm sure you meant kimono fabric. There's hardly enough material in one kimono to make a 2005 dress, let alone anything more voluminous. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com I have a full length wedding kimono which I believe dates from the 30's. You could make a bustle bodice from it easily enough. The material for a kimono is roughly 21 wide, and comes beautifully wrapped and sealed. I made a Regency dress for a Japanese customer using this fabric. She brought me several kimonos which are very loosely put together, and said that she had brought them because silk by the yard was terribly expensive and hard to come by. (% years ago or so.) Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
In a message dated 8/29/2005 6:04:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The dress is a bustle dress of the 1870s, but only the bodice and overskirt survive. The fabric is very beautiful. Do you think that only the bodice and overskirt survive, or were they all that were made of the Japanese fabric? There would certainly be enough fabric in a kimono for that. However, as to an 1850s or '60s gown, which started this discussion--even a voluminous kimono would probably not have enough fabric for that. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
In a message dated 8/29/2005 6:16:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, as to an 1850s or '60s gown, which started this discussion No this discussion started with Victorian. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question Sari fabric and Victorian dresses
In a message dated 8/29/2005 6:42:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No this discussion started with Victorian. Yeah, you right! And I pointed out in my first message that Victorian covers a lot of ground, although I didn't specify the dates of late 1830s-1890s. Seems many folks think crinoline when they think Victorian, but the seamstress in question needs to clarify that with her client first before doing anything else! Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
