Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge

2008-06-18 Thread Susan Farmer

Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]:



In a message dated 6/18/2008 10:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JBRMM266
writes:

The  original poster sent me the URL:
_http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_   
(http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm)




If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from  
Christine de Pizan's City of Women.  There are other such examples  
in that manuscript (like women building a house .)


Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
Division of Science and Math
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge

2008-06-18 Thread Robin Netherton

Susan Farmer wrote:

_http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_  
(http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm)


If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from 
Christine de Pizan's City of Women.  There are other such examples in 
that manuscript (like women building a house .)


I wrote a bit earlier that I had found a detail of the image (a close-up of 
just the lady) in the Medieval Woman Book of Days, attributed to a 14th c. 
Roman de la Rose. The Roman de la Rose does have a scene in which Dame Nature 
(an allegorical figure) is described as working at a forge, making new people 
to replace dead ones. However, the attribution line on the image in the Book 
of Days was clearly wrong, as this picture was obviously late 15th c. (I 
posted a link to the actual 14th c. picture, a much earlier rendition of 
Fortune at the forge.)


While I was waiting for that e-mail to come through on the list, I've been 
chatting with Cathy's husband Jeb, who posed the original question. Here's the 
gist of what I wrote to him (pertinent bits of several messages tidied up and 
combined):


---

Because the image was misattributed in the book I have, there is a slight 
possiblity this is not a Roman de la Rose, and thus not Dame Nature, but in 
any case the costume clearly signals an allegorical or symbolic presentation. 
So this can't be used as evidence for women blacksmiths, much less women 
blacksmiths in sideless surcotes with their hair down! For your purposes, 
though, the rendition of the forge and the blacksmithing tools, techniques, 
etc. is probably as accurate as any other image from the period.


[Then I saw the full image, which shows the rest of the shop, including three 
men making armor]


Having seen the full image, I think now that it is not the Roman de la Rose, 
but rather a scene from Boccaccio's Livre des cleres et nobles femmes, of 
which there are quite a few illuminated manuscripts from this period. (I'd put 
this one around 1480-1500 offhand.) There's a scene in that book of a queen 
who supervises armourer-making or possibly helps make armour. I don't have the 
book handy so can't look up the story, but I know I've seen several 
illuminations of the scene.


---

Susan is right that there are a number of unrealistic images of queenly 
allegorical figures doing craft and building work in the Cite des Dames. (One 
of my favorites shows a queen doing bricklaying.) I don't recall any scenes of 
armor-forging in that context, though.


--Robin

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Re: [h-cost] URL for picture of forge

2008-06-18 Thread otsisto
I believe there are several Roman de la Rose manuscripts.
One was illuminated 1350 France.

From 15th century Roman de la Rose
http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/gradstudies/eurolit/images/rose.jpg

Tapestry Roman de la Rose
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_3_2_6a.html

The poem Roman de la Rose was written by Guillaime de Lorris in c1275. It
was a popular poem to illustrate.

-Original Message-
Susan Farmer wrote:

 _http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm_
 (http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/armourers3.htm)

 If I had to guess, I'd say that was one of the illustrations from
 Christine de Pizan's City of Women.  There are other such examples in
 that manuscript (like women building a house .)

I wrote a bit earlier that I had found a detail of the image (a close-up of
just the lady) in the Medieval Woman Book of Days, attributed to a 14th c.
Roman de la Rose. The Roman de la Rose does have a scene in which Dame
Nature
(an allegorical figure) is described as working at a forge, making new
people
to replace dead ones. However, the attribution line on the image in the Book
of Days was clearly wrong, as this picture was obviously late 15th c. (I
posted a link to the actual 14th c. picture, a much earlier rendition of
Fortune at the forge.)



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