Re: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006, Kathy Page wrote: I think that's it for now, I hope I have taken care of the immediate burning questions. I so far have approximate yardage requirements and cutting layouts scribbled out. Next will be to stew the rest of the information into something more palatable and to make mock ups to confirm my theories. Once that's done... I'll be ready to start writing it into a final finding paper. :-D Which you will be presenting ... where? A broad hit brought to you by the organizer of the Dress and Textiles track at the International Congress on Medieval Studies at Kalamazoo. (And yes, it's a very good idea to present before you publish. It's like a first layer of peer review.) --Robin == Robin Netherton Editor, Medieval Clothing and Textiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1333 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
Okay, the cool stuff everyone has been looking forward to: Underwear Mythbusting. Kathy, I finally was able to look at the pictures on Bella's website and see what you were talking about in your post. How totally cool that you were able to find out this info for yourself but also share it with us! Thanks! And I will certainly buy your book when it comes out ;~ Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
I'm back!!! And frivolously cross posting this all over the place;please pardon my excitement. : I have to say (yet again!), any photo I have *ever* seen will not do those garments justice! This was a most amazing experience. I have to thank Nikki a million times over for being a patient and humourous compass. I, being the directionally impaired, would not have made it *to* the Met, let alone around the island and then home! It was luck of the draw we got along so well, having only met once for about an hour the year previous. Thankyouthankyouthankyou!! Okay, the cool stuff everyone has been looking forward to: Underwear Mythbusting. I won't have complete data available right away, I still have to crunch it into a readable format, however I can happily say that even the museum staff were impressed with the level of detail I was painstakingly dragging the Most Patient Nikki through. She recorded as fast as she could while I fired numbers and terms at her as fast as she could write. After four hours she was just about mental mush. By hour six, so was I - but could have kept going! You have much to look forward to in the coming months. :-) Myth #1 The Stained Drawers They are not in any way stained by blood. They are not even stained in the right place for it to be blood of natural causes. The photos that we are all used to have some kind of strange shadow artifact. We have mapped out the stains, however the stains are not *nearly* as dark as the photos suggest. My suspicion is, the inks used to trace out the embroidery pattern leeched into subsequent layers when the garment got wet while being folded. There is no evidence that suggests that someone tried to remove the stains which tells me they haven't been used since the stains occured. In fact, none of these garments look like they have been used, ever. This one garment though has taken a beating of some kind; it has substantial evidence of poor-quality repair work throught the seams and embroidery. The fabric shows no wear that says it was actually damaged through actual use, though. Myth #1A The Stained Drawers have a front and back V opening Not true. The back should have a seam in it; the seam has torn away down from the waist, but has done so cleanly enough that it appears to have a seam finish. The waistband is supposed to be a casing that a drawstring runs though. Myth #2 - The Gathered Drawers are crotchless Patently untrue. In fact they are gusseted, just as the other above is. It's just a really long opening. They are just like any other pair of knickers one might envision. I have to say though that the sewing on this garment is just... incredible. The seams are as sturdy and perfect as the day they were made. So much so I couldn't find the selvedge edge inside the seams. And the stitches are so perfectly repeated and tiny, it looks as if a machine had made them. Myth #2A - The Gathered Drawers are closed with a button Again, untrue. They have two small eyelets for a point tie to pass through. The pattern down the opening is goldwork, as is the rest of the embellishment which excited me to no end. Goldwork embroidery is my new obsession so I get to decorate to my heart's content. Given the nature of goldwork though, it's amazing that the embroidery is still in perfect condition at the opening. This point leads me to further believe this trousseau was never worn. Myth #3 - The Stockings were once sleeves I totally disagree with this supposition. They have piecing in them that are absolutely identical to one another which says to me that it was a part of the cutting design. They are also above the knee stockings so the photos simply have not given relevant context to their dimensions. I would hazard that the intended wearer was roughly my height (5'5); if I compare the overall length of the stocking to my own leg, it sits perfectly above my knee by about 2 inches. I have some numbers and formulae I can use to establish this for certain, I just have to crunch it and see what pops out. I want to roughly estimate the overall size of the intended wearer so I can better understand how the clothing sat on the body. Myth #4 - The Gathered Chemise is blackworked I'll leave embroidery technique out of this for a moment and say no, indeed it is not *black* work - it is mauve and plum. Yes, purple, to be general about it. And somewhat variegated at that. It was such an odd shade of purple that we couldn't find an accurate match to them in the swatch book. Basically, the colour codes we have are close in value, but one must sadden the tone considerably. Myth #5 - The Ungathered Chemise has been tampered with considerably Most certainly has been; this one is confirmed without a doubt. The lower hem embellishment is petit point cross stitch in a totally wrong style of embroidery. In fact, the whole thing looked so far off from what I have seen in the other items in this collection, I left that one to
Re: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
Absolutely wonderful detail; however, for those of us who don't remember, just WHAT underwear are you talking about? Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume List h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:50:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified I'm back!!! And frivolously cross posting this all over the place;please pardon my excitement. : I have to say (yet again!), any photo I have *ever* seen will not do those garments justice! This was a most amazing experience. I have to thank Nikki a million times over for being a patient and humourous compass. I, being the directionally impaired, would not have made it *to* the Met, let alone around the island and then home! It was luck of the draw we got along so well, having only met once for about an hour the year previous. Thankyouthankyouthankyou!! Okay, the cool stuff everyone has been looking forward to: Underwear Mythbusting. I won't have complete data available right away, I still have to crunch it into a readable format, however I can happily say that even the museum staff were impressed with the level of detail I was painstakingly dragging the Most Patient Nikki through. She recorded as fast as she could while I fired numbers and terms at her as fast as she could write. After four hours she was just about mental mush. By hour six, so was I - but could have kept going! You have much to look forward to in the coming months. :-) Myth #1 The Stained Drawers They are not in any way stained by blood. They are not even stained in the right place for it to be blood of natural causes. The photos that we are all used to have some kind of strange shadow artifact. We have mapped out the stains, however the stains are not *nearly* as dark as the photos suggest. My suspicion is, the inks used to trace out the embroidery pattern leeched into subsequent layers when the garment got wet while being folded. There is no evidence that suggests that someone tried to remove the stains which tells me they haven't been used since the stains occured. In fact, none of these garments look like they have been used, ever. This one garment though has taken a beating of some kind; it has substantial evidence of poor-quality repair work throught the seams and embroidery. The fabric shows no wear that says it was actually damaged through actual use, though. Myth #1A The Stained Drawers have a front and back V opening Not true. The back should have a seam in it; the seam has torn away down from the waist, but has done so cleanly enough that it appears to have a seam finish. The waistband is supposed to be a casing that a drawstring runs though. Myth #2 - The Gathered Drawers are crotchless Patently untrue. In fact they are gusseted, just as the other above is. It's just a really long opening. They are just like any other pair of knickers one might envision. I have to say though that the sewing on this garment is just... incredible. The seams are as sturdy and perfect as the day they were made. So much so I couldn't find the selvedge edge inside the seams. And the stitches are so perfectly repeated and tiny, it looks as if a machine had made them. Myth #2A - The Gathered Drawers are closed with a button Again, untrue. They have two small eyelets for a point tie to pass through. The pattern down the opening is goldwork, as is the rest of the embellishment which excited me to no end. Goldwork embroidery is my new obsession so I get to decorate to my heart's content. Given the nature of goldwork though, it's amazing that the embroidery is still in perfect condition at the opening. This point leads me to further believe this trousseau was never worn. Myth #3 - The Stockings were once sleeves I totally disagree with this supposition. They have piecing in them that are absolutely identical to one another which says to me that it was a part of the cutting design. They are also above the knee stockings so the photos simply have not given relevant context to their dimensions. I would hazard that the intended wearer was roughly my height (5'5); if I compare the overall length of the stocking to my own leg, it sits perfectly above my knee by about 2 inches. I have some numbers and formulae I can use to establish this for certain, I just have to crunch it and see what pops out. I want to roughly estimate the overall size of the intended wearer so I can better understand how the clothing sat on the body. Myth #4 - The Gathered Chemise is blackworked I'll leave embroidery technique out of this for a moment and say no, indeed it is not *black* work - it is mauve and plum. Yes, purple, to be general about it. And somewhat variegated at that. It was such an odd shade of purple that we couldn't find an accurate match to them in the swatch book. Basically, the colour codes we have are close in value, but one must sadden the tone considerably. Myth #5
RE: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified
Having recently joined the group, Where can I see pics of this underwear? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathy Page Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:50 AM To: Historical Costume List Subject: [h-cost] Underwear, Demystified I'm back!!! And frivolously cross posting this all over the place;please pardon my excitement. : I have to say (yet again!), any photo I have *ever* seen will not do those garments justice! This was a most amazing experience. I have to thank Nikki a million times over for being a patient and humourous compass. I, being the directionally impaired, would not have made it *to* the Met, let alone around the island and then home! It was luck of the draw we got along so well, having only met once for about an hour the year previous. Thankyouthankyouthankyou!! Okay, the cool stuff everyone has been looking forward to: Underwear Mythbusting. I won't have complete data available right away, I still have to crunch it into a readable format, however I can happily say that even the museum staff were impressed with the level of detail I was painstakingly dragging the Most Patient Nikki through. She recorded as fast as she could while I fired numbers and terms at her as fast as she could write. After four hours she was just about mental mush. By hour six, so was I - but could have kept going! You have much to look forward to in the coming months. :-) Myth #1 The Stained Drawers They are not in any way stained by blood. They are not even stained in the right place for it to be blood of natural causes. The photos that we are all used to have some kind of strange shadow artifact. We have mapped out the stains, however the stains are not *nearly* as dark as the photos suggest. My suspicion is, the inks used to trace out the embroidery pattern leeched into subsequent layers when the garment got wet while being folded. There is no evidence that suggests that someone tried to remove the stains which tells me they haven't been used since the stains occured. In fact, none of these garments look like they have been used, ever. This one garment though has taken a beating of some kind; it has substantial evidence of poor-quality repair work throught the seams and embroidery. The fabric shows no wear that says it was actually damaged through actual use, though. Myth #1A The Stained Drawers have a front and back V opening Not true. The back should have a seam in it; the seam has torn away down from the waist, but has done so cleanly enough that it appears to have a seam finish. The waistband is supposed to be a casing that a drawstring runs though. Myth #2 - The Gathered Drawers are crotchless Patently untrue. In fact they are gusseted, just as the other above is. It's just a really long opening. They are just like any other pair of knickers one might envision. I have to say though that the sewing on this garment is just... incredible. The seams are as sturdy and perfect as the day they were made. So much so I couldn't find the selvedge edge inside the seams. And the stitches are so perfectly repeated and tiny, it looks as if a machine had made them. Myth #2A - The Gathered Drawers are closed with a button Again, untrue. They have two small eyelets for a point tie to pass through. The pattern down the opening is goldwork, as is the rest of the embellishment which excited me to no end. Goldwork embroidery is my new obsession so I get to decorate to my heart's content. Given the nature of goldwork though, it's amazing that the embroidery is still in perfect condition at the opening. This point leads me to further believe this trousseau was never worn. Myth #3 - The Stockings were once sleeves I totally disagree with this supposition. They have piecing in them that are absolutely identical to one another which says to me that it was a part of the cutting design. They are also above the knee stockings so the photos simply have not given relevant context to their dimensions. I would hazard that the intended wearer was roughly my height (5'5); if I compare the overall length of the stocking to my own leg, it sits perfectly above my knee by about 2 inches. I have some numbers and formulae I can use to establish this for certain, I just have to crunch it and see what pops out. I want to roughly estimate the overall size of the intended wearer so I can better understand how the clothing sat on the body. Myth #4 - The Gathered Chemise is blackworked I'll leave embroidery technique out of this for a moment and say no, indeed it is not *black* work - it is mauve and plum. Yes, purple, to be general about it. And somewhat variegated at that. It was such an odd shade of purple that we couldn't find an accurate match to them in the swatch book. Basically, the colour codes we have are close in value, but one must sadden the tone considerably. Myth #5 - The Ungathered Chemise has been tampered
