RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Warnicke's biog has some theories I disagree with: Anne was the eldest, not Mary, brother George was possibly gay and the premature son Anne miscarried was probably malformed(therefore in those days deemed a monster)and Anne's fault(its always the woman's fault!)which led Henry to believe she was a witch. Warnicke, however, does give a convincing argument for the traditional 1507 birthdate for Anne, although that would make Mary very, very young to have an affair with Henry. Most historians nowdays think Anne was born between 1500-1502. My own theory is that Anne was probably born in 1507 and went first to the Burgundian court at age 6 or 7. Warnicke points out that another of Henry's courtier's sent his daughter Jane to the Burgundian court at the same age. The regent Marguerite had English blood through her descent from Edward IV's sister.Henry VIII's younger sister, Mary, was originally engaged to Marguerite's nephew(?), so it could be that Mary Boleyn would have been a lady-in-waiting or maid of honor to Mary Tudor, a higher position than just being in the household of Marguerite. When the Burgundian marriage plans/treaty failed, Mary Tudor was made the bride of Louis, King of France, and Mary was in her household that traveled to France. Sir Thomas Boleyn swiftly removed Anne from Burgundy and secured her a place in the French royal household. However, the whole Anne as a scheming Monica Lewinsky and Henry as a besotted Bill Clinton(it is glaringly obvious in the novel)was Gregory's take. Cindy Abel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dor Mous Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl That's the problem for me.They make out Philippa Gregory practically IS a historian now and a lot of people believe the hype. The novel was based on the highly controversial work of real historian, Retha Warnicke, whose crackpot theories have been lambasted many times. All the factual inaccuracies were Ms Gregory's, and there are plenty: basic facts, English culture, clothing etc. Even Mary Boleyn's not knowing how to make cook or make cheese was all wrong. Running a household was standard training for any English gentlewoman in the 16th century, even social climbers like the Boleyns. The distant, 'not getting her hands dirty' lady was a development of later ages, and Tudor ladies knew how to do everything, even when they could afford to pay someone else to do it. I understand that this is a film, based on a work of fiction. I'm happy that some changes will be made to cover dramatic license and furthering the story. This applies to costume too so I'm happy with some costume inaccuracy. But these costumes are just ugly. The French hood fronts are too small. Plain unflattering to both lead actresses. 'Anne of the Thousand Days', for all its many factual and costume inaccuracies, at least did Genevieve Bujold the courtesy of costuming her elegantly, and her inaccurate French hood fronts suited her. Never mind the dresses, I'm not sure I can bear a whole film watching Nathalie Portman and Scarlett Johannson with those things on their heads. I don't think it will have the comedy value of 'Shakespeare in Love' or the fine performances of 'Elizabeth', two other glaringly inaccurate but fairly enjoyable films. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:26:50 -0500 From: monica spence Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl To: Historical Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I read the book too, but it did not make me crazy. It is so easy to make a mistake about clothing when you are a writer with little or no background in clothing history. I pretty much ignore that stuff. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Monica, Funny how you hit on the bad writing. As with so many of these novels that are suggested to me, I found the writing was really sub par, at least in my estimation. I enjoyed the story for the most part, but I do find it hard to look past mediocre prose. As for the dresses (obligatory costume content) in the photoshoot, is it possible that this is a promo shot and they will use real costumes later for the actual film? I have no idea as to the genesis of these photos, and was hoping they might be publicity stills, rather than screen captures from the film itself. I think these costumes are more than cheesy, they scream Halloween to me. Nice tidy well made Halloween, but Halloween nonetheless. I was actually shocked at the quality, as I was expecting something more akin to PBS in detail and execution. The gold braid on the French hoods looks really cheap and the whole overall effect is so distracting to me I'm not sure I could get into the film at all. I love both actresses in general, although more a fan of Portman's body of work at this point. Does anyone know when this film is slated to be released? angela + Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes Theatrical Costume Design Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech... All's Well That Ends Well 1.1.65-6, Countess to Bertram W. Shakespeare http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com - Original Message - From: monica spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl I read the book too, but it did not make me crazy. It is so easy to make a mistake about clothing when you are a writer with little or no background in clothing history. I pretty much ignore that stuff. As for the novel itself, it was disappointing, but the Constant Princess made me nuts. It was so PC! And it had no end-- it stopped dead after she was called into court for the divorce proceedings. (AAK!) Not to mention it flipped between first person and the narritive. UGH. The only person I have ever seen do that well is Diana Gabaldon. Now that woman can write! Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dianne Greg Stucki Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:32 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl At 09:49 PM 12/21/2006, you wrote: Don't you just love the Pop Art circles on the fabric? Shouldn't there be a cap over the hair to anchor the French hood? UGH! WHY do they do stuff like this? Monica Unfortunately, it looks like they're basing the costumes on the descriptions in the book. The ones that made me scream and pitch the book across the room. (Okay, the entire book had that effect on me, I hated it, but the costumes were the worst.) Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
The pictures are stills from the movie. http://media.movies.ign.com/media/836/836639/imgs_1.html a few more pictures http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/boleyn.shtml and exurpt from the director. `Director Philippa Lowthorpe said we are doing history in a completely different way. The improvisation process should bring a freshness and modernity to the production, as each actor is able to interpret their own role rather than the script presenting one writer's view of history.' De -Original Message- As for the dresses (obligatory costume content) in the photoshoot, is it possible that this is a promo shot and they will use real costumes later for the actual film? I have no idea as to the genesis of these photos, and was hoping they might be publicity stills, rather than screen captures from the film itself. I think these costumes are more than cheesy, they scream Halloween to me. Nice tidy well made Halloween, but Halloween nonetheless. I was actually shocked at the quality, as I was expecting something more akin to PBS in detail and execution. The gold braid on the French hoods looks really cheap and the whole overall effect is so distracting to me I'm not sure I could get into the film at all. I love both actresses in general, although more a fan of Portman's body of work at this point. Does anyone know when this film is slated to be released? angela + Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes Theatrical Costume Design ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
we are doing history in a completely different way. AAUGGH! Talk about revisionism! Lousy scholarship and bad costumes. Makes me want to go to the movies... oh yes... they will get my $10.00 on the Twelfth of Never. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl The pictures are stills from the movie. http://media.movies.ign.com/media/836/836639/imgs_1.html a few more pictures http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/boleyn.shtml and exurpt from the director. `Director Philippa Lowthorpe said we are doing history in a completely different way. The improvisation process should bring a freshness and modernity to the production, as each actor is able to interpret their own role rather than the script presenting one writer's view of history.' De -Original Message- As for the dresses (obligatory costume content) in the photoshoot, is it possible that this is a promo shot and they will use real costumes later for the actual film? I have no idea as to the genesis of these photos, and was hoping they might be publicity stills, rather than screen captures from the film itself. I think these costumes are more than cheesy, they scream Halloween to me. Nice tidy well made Halloween, but Halloween nonetheless. I was actually shocked at the quality, as I was expecting something more akin to PBS in detail and execution. The gold braid on the French hoods looks really cheap and the whole overall effect is so distracting to me I'm not sure I could get into the film at all. I love both actresses in general, although more a fan of Portman's body of work at this point. Does anyone know when this film is slated to be released? angela + Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes Theatrical Costume Design ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
At 01:19 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: As for the novel itself, it was disappointing, but the Constant Princess made me nuts. It was so PC! And it had no end-- it ... ...snip... ... person and the narritive. UGH. The only person I have ever seen do that well is Diana Gabaldon. Now that woman can write! Oh, yeah! Preach it, sister! Any news on The Next Book? susan (dons flameproof suit) (whispering)Can't stand Diana Gabaldon either... Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
That's the problem for me.They make out Philippa Gregory practically IS a historian now and a lot of people believe the hype. The novel was based on the highly controversial work of real historian, Retha Warnicke, whose crackpot theories have been lambasted many times. All the factual inaccuracies were Ms Gregory's, and there are plenty: basic facts, English culture, clothing etc. Even Mary Boleyn's not knowing how to make cook or make cheese was all wrong. Running a household was standard training for any English gentlewoman in the 16th century, even social climbers like the Boleyns. The distant, 'not getting her hands dirty' lady was a development of later ages, and Tudor ladies knew how to do everything, even when they could afford to pay someone else to do it. I understand that this is a film, based on a work of fiction. I'm happy that some changes will be made to cover dramatic license and furthering the story. This applies to costume too so I'm happy with some costume inaccuracy. But these costumes are just ugly. The French hood fronts are too small. Plain unflattering to both lead actresses. 'Anne of the Thousand Days', for all its many factual and costume inaccuracies, at least did Genevieve Bujold the courtesy of costuming her elegantly, and her inaccurate French hood fronts suited her. Never mind the dresses, I'm not sure I can bear a whole film watching Nathalie Portman and Scarlett Johannson with those things on their heads. I don't think it will have the comedy value of 'Shakespeare in Love' or the fine performances of 'Elizabeth', two other glaringly inaccurate but fairly enjoyable films. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:26:50 -0500 From: monica spence Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl To: Historical Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I read the book too, but it did not make me crazy. It is so easy to make a mistake about clothing when you are a writer with little or no background in clothing history. I pretty much ignore that stuff. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Greetings-- monica spence wrote: we are doing history in a completely different way. AAUGGH! Talk about revisionism! Lousy scholarship and bad costumes. In other words, they are doing history in exactly the same way as most historical dramas do it, alas. I just love it when these movie people think they're being so revolutionary when in actuality they're doing the same tired old schtick on history (contemporary takes) as hundreds of directors and producers before them. Now, that can work in a movie that doesn't take itself seriously (Shakespeare in Love, and to some extent, A Knight's Tale,) but rarely in a movie that claims to be at all historically accurate (which most of these films will make some pretense of being.) Those costumes are hideous. What's with the pseudo-Cranach puff and slash bits? The French hood with no hood (a French headband?)? Those awful fabrics? I saw better historical costume in the 50's and 60's! Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: Greetings-- monica spence wrote: we are doing history in a completely different way. AAUGGH! Talk about revisionism! Lousy scholarship and bad costumes. In other words, they are doing history in exactly the same way as most historical dramas do it, alas. It's the movie industry. Didn't you realize that movie magic is convincing people that doing the same thing the same way over and over again is innovative? andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
(also whispering) Me, either...so you're not alone --Sue, ignoring the enormous pile of packages she needs to wrap - Original Message - From: Dianne Greg Stucki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:52 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl At 01:19 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: As for the novel itself, it was disappointing, but the Constant Princess made me nuts. It was so PC! And it had no end-- it ... ...snip... ... person and the narritive. UGH. The only person I have ever seen do that well is Diana Gabaldon. Now that woman can write! Oh, yeah! Preach it, sister! Any news on The Next Book? susan (dons flameproof suit) (whispering)Can't stand Diana Gabaldon either... Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl
Don't you just love the Pop Art circles on the fabric? Shouldn't there be a cap over the hair to anchor the French hood? UGH! WHY do they do stuff like this? Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Suzanne Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] re: The other Boleyn girl You said: http://natalieportman.com/npcom.php I wont say I am an expert or anything but those costumes are kinda cheesy. That pattern in the fabric screams poly to me, it is definitely not period, and that ladder lacing up the front with the stomacker is stolen from some italian city ;-). Not period at all. The attifets? are awful. the crescent is not long enough and should cover their hair and go more down to their ears. I wonder if they glued natalies on, looks like it just sits there. The profile is pretty good though as long as you don't look at them closely. I am however looking forward to seeing the movie sometime, since that is a period that does interest me. Are padded pleats period for tudor, thought they were later? Tania and I say: Kinda cheesy is right. :-) It looks like they used that old Vogue ballgown pattern from a few years back (when Shakespeare in Love was all the rage) and forgot to put coifs under the French hoods [not attifets--as you noted/questioned]. Although I admit I'm not the local expert on French hoods! I'll probably go see the movie, but I don't imagine my family will come with me 'cause they hate it when I groan in the theatre, LOL. Suzanne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
