Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find
Agreed that it is more interesting than the Daily Mail story, but unfortunately not the one which will stick in the average person's mind. ;-) One of the places that had gotten the Daily Mail stories linked to that. Medievalists maybe? Teena From: Marie Stewart maric...@gmail.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find The Daily Mail Article is 'interesting' but the more interesting piece is the summary of the presentation from the NESAT conference. You can find it here. http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf I sent out both links initially, but not to HCost, ah well. There's more information out there. I'm still finding items on it. Bridgette On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com wrote: I tried to read the BBC story but you have to have a subscription, unfortunately. However, I did notice that every news story out there seemed to stem from the Daily Mail story. And that is too bad. I am not discounting the importance of the find and the resulting research that will be available. That is awesome. What I find annoying is all of the headlines and news stories that say Medieval women wore skimpy linen bras and knickers. Teena From: Kate Bunting k.m.bunt...@derby.ac.uk To: h-cost...@indra.com h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find
Hi, I haven't been able to keep up with all of this thread, but I just wanted to make sure you have seen this: http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/medieval-lingerie-from-lengberg-castle-east-tyrol.html which must be more current than the NESAT abstract in that the carbon dating results are back. Also, pictures. Lauren - Original Message - From: Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:18:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find Agreed that it is more interesting than the Daily Mail story, but unfortunately not the one which will stick in the average person's mind. ;-) One of the places that had gotten the Daily Mail stories linked to that. Medievalists maybe? Teena From: Marie Stewart maric...@gmail.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find The Daily Mail Article is 'interesting' but the more interesting piece is the summary of the presentation from the NESAT conference. You can find it here. http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf I sent out both links initially, but not to HCost, ah well. There's more information out there. I'm still finding items on it. Bridgette On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com wrote: I tried to read the BBC story but you have to have a subscription, unfortunately. However, I did notice that every news story out there seemed to stem from the Daily Mail story. And that is too bad. I am not discounting the importance of the find and the resulting research that will be available. That is awesome. What I find annoying is all of the headlines and news stories that say Medieval women wore skimpy linen bras and knickers. Teena From: Kate Bunting k.m.bunt...@derby.ac.uk To: h-cost...@indra.com h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find
Teena wrote: The article was in the Daily Mail. It was probably right next to an article about seeing the Virgin Mary on a pancake and having an alien as a brother in law. ? Teena But it does refer to an article in the August issue of BBC History Magazine, which should be more authoritative. Any UK list members have access to this? Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find
I tried to read the BBC story but you have to have a subscription, unfortunately. However, I did notice that every news story out there seemed to stem from the Daily Mail story. And that is too bad. I am not discounting the importance of the find and the resulting research that will be available. That is awesome. What I find annoying is all of the headlines and news stories that say Medieval women wore skimpy linen bras and knickers. Teena From: Kate Bunting k.m.bunt...@derby.ac.uk To: h-cost...@indra.com h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find Teena wrote: The article was in the Daily Mail. It was probably right next to an article about seeing the Virgin Mary on a pancake and having an alien as a brother in law. ? Teena But it does refer to an article in the August issue of BBC History Magazine, which should be more authoritative. Any UK list members have access to this? Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find
The Daily Mail Article is 'interesting' but the more interesting piece is the summary of the presentation from the NESAT conference. You can find it here. http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf I sent out both links initially, but not to HCost, ah well. There's more information out there. I'm still finding items on it. Bridgette On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com wrote: I tried to read the BBC story but you have to have a subscription, unfortunately. However, I did notice that every news story out there seemed to stem from the Daily Mail story. And that is too bad. I am not discounting the importance of the find and the resulting research that will be available. That is awesome. What I find annoying is all of the headlines and news stories that say Medieval women wore skimpy linen bras and knickers. Teena From: Kate Bunting k.m.bunt...@derby.ac.uk To: h-cost...@indra.com h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting underwear find ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
This article is getting some discussion in other places. It's a shame the author (or whoever provided the information to the author) makes so many assumptions. For instance, the pictured garment described as a bra appears to be fragments of a much larger item -- look at the part surviving at the lower left side of the garment (right side of the photo) with eyelets at the side and a waist-level edge at the bottom, which might have been attached to a skirt. (The shaped cups are cool, though! I can see that in 15th c. German costume.) And as Heather Rose Jones pointed out in a conversation elsewhere, the string-bikini knickers bear a strong resemblance to men's underwear seen in 15th c. German artwork. The article, however, assumes they belonged to women, although there's no context to determine the wearer. --Robin On 7/17/2012 9:55 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Just read this really interesting article on a discovery of 15th century undergarments in Austria. Never say never things really are being dug up every day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ::Linda:: ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
What you say is certainly true... even the article's title is misleading. I see no lacey lingerie, but I suppose that's what it takes to grab the average reader today. But it's still interesting, and I'd love to see photos of other pieces in this discovery. Any leads on that? ::Linda:: -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find This article is getting some discussion in other places. It's a shame the author (or whoever provided the information to the author) makes so many assumptions. For instance, the pictured garment described as a bra appears to be fragments of a much larger item -- look at the part surviving at the lower left side of the garment (right side of the photo) with eyelets at the side and a waist-level edge at the bottom, which might have been attached to a skirt. (The shaped cups are cool, though! I can see that in 15th c. German costume.) And as Heather Rose Jones pointed out in a conversation elsewhere, the string-bikini knickers bear a strong resemblance to men's underwear seen in 15th c. German artwork. The article, however, assumes they belonged to women, although there's no context to determine the wearer. --Robin On 7/17/2012 9:55 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Just read this really interesting article on a discovery of 15th century undergarments in Austria. Never say never things really are being dug up every day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find, more
Yes, I saw that one, too. Wonderful to have actual 'real people' photos, isn't it? As far as the underwear, I agree that the article is rather sensationalized, which I suppose is just part of today's general media. I'd love to read reports written by textile experts and directed towards educated enthusiasts such as myself and others. I consider the Daily Mail article but a teaser! Still, what I take away from it is that here is proof of undergarments being worn, in a style similar to what we thought of as much later. Were they worn everywhere by everyone? I'd say that remains to be determined. And besides, the list is in its typical summer doldrums. We needed *something* to talk about!! Linda -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:28 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find, more I followed up on a link on the same page and it yielded more deliciousness, this time Edwardian: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2173872/Edwardian-street-style-Ast onishing-amateur-images-capture-fashion-women-London-Paris-century-ago.html or (thanks to TinyURL): http://tinyurl.com/72jubj9 Like many of us, I question the attribution of bra and especially knickers to the items shown in your original post. I can see the so- called bra as a part of a Germanic underbodice of some sort. The other might just be a sanitary garment, but there's also no indication whether or not it was worn by male or female persons. The layers-- if we can really tell from the photo-- might indicate female. But without closer examination by an actual costume historian, the online article sounds rather (dare I say) bogus. :) ==Marjorie Wilser @..@ @..@ @..@ Three Toad Press http://3toad.blogspot.com/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find, more
Oh definitely. The movement of the cloth, the unstudied poses, combined with the beauty of the clothes (despite real-life wear!). Yum. ==Marjorie Wilser @..@ @..@ @..@ Three Toad Press http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Jul 17, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Yes, I saw that one, too. Wonderful to have actual 'real people' photos, isn't it? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
The article was in the Daily Mail. It was probably right next to an article about seeing the Virgin Mary on a pancake and having an alien as a brother in law. Teena From: Linda Rice vm...@cox.net To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find What you say is certainly true... even the article's title is misleading. I see no lacey lingerie, but I suppose that's what it takes to grab the average reader today. But it's still interesting, and I'd love to see photos of other pieces in this discovery. Any leads on that? ::Linda:: -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find This article is getting some discussion in other places. It's a shame the author (or whoever provided the information to the author) makes so many assumptions. For instance, the pictured garment described as a bra appears to be fragments of a much larger item -- look at the part surviving at the lower left side of the garment (right side of the photo) with eyelets at the side and a waist-level edge at the bottom, which might have been attached to a skirt. (The shaped cups are cool, though! I can see that in 15th c. German costume.) And as Heather Rose Jones pointed out in a conversation elsewhere, the string-bikini knickers bear a strong resemblance to men's underwear seen in 15th c. German artwork. The article, however, assumes they belonged to women, although there's no context to determine the wearer. --Robin On 7/17/2012 9:55 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Just read this really interesting article on a discovery of 15th century undergarments in Austria. Never say never things really are being dug up every day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
Some of the garments had some nalbinding or needle-lace fabric insertions on an edge which were certainly more open than the linen to which they're attached. And the underpants--for male or female wear, I'm pretty sure they are a unique find and very exciting. Ann in CT From: Linda Rice vm...@cox.net What you say is certainly true... even the article's title is misleading. I see no lacey lingerie, but I suppose that's what it takes to grab the average reader today. But it's still interesting, and I'd love to see photos of other pieces in this discovery. Any leads on that? ::Linda:: ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf The above link is to the abstract for the archaeologist's presentation at NESAT 2011. I look forward to seeing further publication of the finds. It looks really interesting. Ginni Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com 7/17/12 10:52 AM The article was in the Daily Mail. It was probably right next to an article about seeing the Virgin Mary on a pancake and having an alien as a brother in law. Teena From: Linda Rice vm...@cox.net To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find What you say is certainly true... even the article's title is misleading. I see no lacey lingerie, but I suppose that's what it takes to grab the average reader today. But it's still interesting, and I'd love to see photos of other pieces in this discovery. Any leads on that? ::Linda:: -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find This article is getting some discussion in other places. It's a shame the author (or whoever provided the information to the author) makes so many assumptions. For instance, the pictured garment described as a bra appears to be fragments of a much larger item -- look at the part surviving at the lower left side of the garment (right side of the photo) with eyelets at the side and a waist-level edge at the bottom, which might have been attached to a skirt. (The shaped cups are cool, though! I can see that in 15th c. German costume.) And as Heather Rose Jones pointed out in a conversation elsewhere, the string-bikini knickers bear a strong resemblance to men's underwear seen in 15th c. German artwork. The article, however, assumes they belonged to women, although there's no context to determine the wearer. --Robin On 7/17/2012 9:55 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Just read this really interesting article on a discovery of 15th century undergarments in Austria. Never say never things really are being dug up every day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
While I disagree with the sensationalized depiction in the Daily Mail article (Hey look! Medieval times had modern bras!), I do look forward to seeing the actual research done on the items. It could be very interesting! Teena From: Ginni Morgan ginni.mor...@doj.ca.gov To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf The above link is to the abstract for the archaeologist's presentation at NESAT 2011. I look forward to seeing further publication of the finds. It looks really interesting. Ginni Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com 7/17/12 10:52 AM The article was in the Daily Mail. It was probably right next to an article about seeing the Virgin Mary on a pancake and having an alien as a brother in law. Teena From: Linda Rice vm...@cox.net To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find What you say is certainly true... even the article's title is misleading. I see no lacey lingerie, but I suppose that's what it takes to grab the average reader today. But it's still interesting, and I'd love to see photos of other pieces in this discovery. Any leads on that? ::Linda:: -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find This article is getting some discussion in other places. It's a shame the author (or whoever provided the information to the author) makes so many assumptions. For instance, the pictured garment described as a bra appears to be fragments of a much larger item -- look at the part surviving at the lower left side of the garment (right side of the photo) with eyelets at the side and a waist-level edge at the bottom, which might have been attached to a skirt. (The shaped cups are cool, though! I can see that in 15th c. German costume.) And as Heather Rose Jones pointed out in a conversation elsewhere, the string-bikini knickers bear a strong resemblance to men's underwear seen in 15th c. German artwork. The article, however, assumes they belonged to women, although there's no context to determine the wearer. --Robin On 7/17/2012 9:55 AM, Linda Rice wrote: Just read this really interesting article on a discovery of 15th century undergarments in Austria. Never say never things really are being dug up every day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps- lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
I am dying to see the published paper, and hoping it includes patterns. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic sewing and needlework www.lavoltapress.com On 7/17/2012 2:04 PM, Ginni Morgan wrote: http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf The above link is to the abstract for the archaeologist's presentation at NESAT 2011. I look forward to seeing further publication of the finds. It looks really interesting. Ginni ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
Hi, The brief article we are seeing in the Daily Mail seems to coincide with the August issue of the BBC History Magazine hitting the stands today. Beatriz Nutz told me that she wrote an article (that is coming out in this particular issue) that will contain images of two of the “bras” and the underpants (no patterns). As [she] wrote it for a popular audience there´s not much in the way of description of the artifacts to satisfy a scientific mind but it discusses the social acceptance of female underwear in the 15th and 16th century with quotes from some contemporary written sources on the topic. http://www.historyextra.com/magazine/next-issue Looks like one can get a Kindle version of this issue off Amazon. http://www.amazon.co.uk/BBC-History-Magazine/dp/B006M37NT0/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-textie=UTF8qid=1329304257sr=1-1 She wrote the BBC History Magazine article because the article she wrote on the Lengberg finds for a special thématiques issue of the French magazine “Histoire et Images Medievales” was being delayed in publication. Unfortunately for me the magazine is having her article translated into French. The article will include images of three of the bras, the underpants, shirt fragments, dress fragments and even some shoes. Beatrix just sent me a note that it is expected to be out on August 16th. Even more exciting... she says: Something else to look forward to: There´s going to be a press release and public presentation of the Lengberg underwear at Lengberg Castle itself end of September (21st to 22nd). [She's] currently working on a booklet to be published for this event which will contain not only images of the finds but also patterns – plus it will be in German and English. The publication of the booklet has yet to be funded but, more details to follow about when and where we can order it once it has been published. I was actually lucky enough to be able to have gone to NESAT XI in May of 2011 when Beatrix Nutz presented on the 15th century bras. I really enjoyed her presentation at NESAT XI and even more so the gatherings after the days presentations where we took over the local open air cafe and discussed ancient textiles (many of the participants were staying in the same hotel). She brought out the pictures and we all got to chat about them for a couple of days before her actual presentation (as well as other various textiles and projects). I'm guessing that is why I remember so much more of it than some of the others. Publication of the NESAT XI proceedings is supposed to be later this year but I haven't heard any specifics as to when. http://www.nesat.org/m2/volume.html Besides presenting at NESAT XI, she has presented at other conferences. Upcoming, she will be presenting at the Autumn Meeting of The Medieval Dress and Textile Society on October 27th, 2012.http://www.medats.org.uk/events/ The Universität Innsbruck Forschungs project page on the Medieval Textiles found in the Lengberg Castle can be found at http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/forschungsprojekt-ma-textilien-lengberg.html It has links to some of the earlier press releases. Regards, Anne Decker ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Interesting Underwear find
On Jul 17, 2012, at 11:46 AM, Ann Catelli wrote: Some of the garments had some nalbinding or needle-lace fabric insertions on an edge which were certainly more open than the linen to which they're attached. And the underpants--for male or female wear, I'm pretty sure they are a unique find and very exciting. Oh definitely! It would be a shame if the wearer-gender issue gets in the way of appreciating what a glorious find this is! Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
