[Haifux] LINUX and SSDL
Dear All, I hear that there is an active Linux community that you run. I would like to see if we can cooperate in one of the following issues regarding the installation of Linux Ubuntu in SSDL. In particular, I would like to check if we - can help you guys in organixing Linux lectures? - ditto, for installation parties? - ditto, for giving you access to our Wiki, on which some of the files you store in personal accounts can be saved in a more stable location. - similarly, and help you can provide in educating students would be appreciated. - ditto, in helping us resolve technical problems. I do not use my Technion email address in this list for two reasons: - I do not want students to be intimidated by writing directly to a Professor - I do not mail sent to that account so often, and it has lots of filters that prevent students from writing to me. Regards, Yossi ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] LINUX and SSDL
Hello, Let's start with the sad fact, that most active Haifuxers are not Technion students. In particular, not undergraduate students. Which brings us to my first question: What is SSDL? What have you been running there until now? My initial response (others -- please speak up if you differ) is that we need to figure out what the real need is. We have run Welcome to Linux in the past, and installation parties as well, but as time goes by it looks more and more like there is no need to explain how to install the system, but rather how to tackle it once it's up. The existence of LiveCDs makes the whole installation issue much less frightening (Hey, I ran Linux on my computer from a CD and I'm still alive). Bottom line: In order to help, we need to know what the students need to carry out with Linux. What their needs are, and where they get stuck. Previous experience in the Technion with deploying Linux in a farm (hint, hint) gave me the impression that the students managed well with Linux, and so did the technical staff. I would also suggest having a look on these lectures abstracts, which were given in the past: http://www.haifux.org/lectures/152-sil http://www.haifux.org/lectures/153-sil1 http://www.haifux.org/lectures/162-sil http://www.haifux.org/lectures/179 http://www.haifux.org/lectures/191-sil Regards, Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] LINUX and SSDL
Hi Eli and Yotam: Just to answer your questions: SSDL is a laboratory for software engineering students at the Technion. We have 20 workstations (equipped fairly impressively, lots of RAM, dual screens, HZs, etc.) We migrated to Ubuntu 8.04 at the beginning of the school year. Up until then, we used Windows. Read all about the lab in http://ssdl-linux.cs.technion.ac.il/wiki/index.php/Main_Page. We are located in the second floor in Taub. I am looking forward to any cooperation: in particular, I would be happy to make the facilities available to you guys for your lectures, etc. T I think that Zvi Dvir, Ronen Avarbaneal, Orr Dunkelman and Rami Rozen were/are Technion students and I hear that you run your meetings at the Technion. I am in the process of making welcome page to Linux, to resolve many of the students initial fears. Here is what I wrote so far: http://ssdl-linux.cs.technion.ac.il/wiki/index.php/Beginning_SSDL_users The links you provide are excellent!! Any chance I could use the material in the Wiki? Anyone here interested in taking control of the Wiki sections pages, used to introduce Linux to students? We have a number of technical problems. Your experience here could help: 1. FF3 sometimes slows down to a halt on Flash. 2. Running FF3 is not possible if a user is logged on to multiple stations. 3. Eclipse issues... I also have my personal technical question, which you may be able to help in. I use Linux on a wireless home network, and I would like to do a couple of wireless network mounts, prior to any login screens. Any ideas on how I convince the computer to connect to the wireless before I logon? Yossi On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Eli Billauer e...@billauer.co.il wrote: Hello, Let's start with the sad fact, that most active Haifuxers are not Technion students. In particular, not undergraduate students. Which brings us to my first question: What is SSDL? What have you been running there until now? My initial response (others -- please speak up if you differ) is that we need to figure out what the real need is. We have run Welcome to Linux in the past, and installation parties as well, but as time goes by it looks more and more like there is no need to explain how to install the system, but rather how to tackle it once it's up. The existence of LiveCDs makes the whole installation issue much less frightening (Hey, I ran Linux on my computer from a CD and I'm still alive). Bottom line: In order to help, we need to know what the students need to carry out with Linux. What their needs are, and where they get stuck. Previous experience in the Technion with deploying Linux in a farm (hint, hint) gave me the impression that the students managed well with Linux, and so did the technical staff. I would also suggest having a look on these lectures abstracts, which were given in the past: http://www.haifux.org/lectures/152-sil http://www.haifux.org/lectures/153-sil1 http://www.haifux.org/lectures/162-sil http://www.haifux.org/lectures/179 http://www.haifux.org/lectures/191-sil Regards, Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
[Haifux] Student complaints.
Folks, here is the list of the unedited gripe list of students. As you will see, some of the problems are educational (MS WORD is sexy), other are organizational (not enough quota), while others are technical (Eclipse crashes). I am asking for your help mainly in dealing with the psychological issues... Make it easier and more exciting for the students to work with Linux. פרויקט שנתי בהנדסת תוכנה *Students' feedback on 'working in SSDL' – January 2009* *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* הנושאים היחידים אליהם אתייחס הם נושאי לינוקס. במשך שנתיים אני נמצאת במעבדה כמעט כל יום, כל היום (פרט לזמן בו אני נמצאת בהרצאות) ואין לי תלונות פרט לתלונות שאציג על החלפת ה windows ל linux. - ספציפית לגבי הפרויקט בשבוע האחרון קרו לנו פעמים תקלות בהעברת קבצים ממחשבי המעבדה הביתה. לכולנו יש בבית מחשבי windows וכאשר תכננו משימות לשבוע במחשבי המעבדה בהעברה למחשבים בבית פעמיים היו בעיות התאמת פורמט ומישהו היה צריך להגיע לטכניון (למחשבי linux) כדי לטפל בבעיה לאפשר לקבוצה להמשיך לעבוד בבית. - בכל פעם שעלינו להכין מצגת או גרפים אנו עוברים למחשב שאינו במעבדה בגלל שאנו רגילים לעבוד ב windows ועבודה בו חוסכת לנו זמן. הפרויקט דורש הכנת מצגות רבות במהלכו ולכן נראה לי שהמעבדה שאחת ממטרותיה היא לשרת אותו אמורה לספק כלים נוחים להכנת מצגות וגרפים. - לא פעם קרו לנו תקלות במעבר בין linux ל windows ולהיפך עקב ניסיון לעבוד בבית ובמעבדה. בעיות אלו בזבזו זמן שלא היה מתבזבז אם בשני המקומות היינו עובדים באותה סביבה. - לא פעם היו ל linux תקלות מוזרות שגרמו לסגירת סביבת עבודה ללא שמירה בצורה פתאומית בעת לחיצה על minimize. תקלה אחרת מתלוננת על סביבת עבודה פתוחה במקום אחר (כאשר היא לא) ובכך מונעת עבודה באותה סביבה. - ל linux יש נטיה לא להודיע על כך שהמקום עבור היוזר נגמר מראש. קרה לי שהוא התחיל לשמור קובץ ונתקע באמצע כי לא היה מספיק מקום. לאחר מכן הסביבה נתקעה והייתי צריכה לצאת מה eclipse. הקובץ שלא הצליח להישמר נשמר עד האמצע והיה חסר קטע גדול מאוד של קוד (עבודה של כ 3 שעות) שהיה עלי לשחזר מאפס. אני מניחה שהמחשבים לא יועברו בחזרה ל windows בקרוב. אבל אני מקווה שתלונותינו יעזרו לבאים אחרינו. *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* *עבודה במעבדה*: - קיים מחסור בעמדות עבודה מה שדורש מאנשים לעבוד על מחשבים ניידים אישיים. - בהמשך לסעיף הקודם, קיים גם מחסור בחיבורי רשת לניידים. - לא ניתן להתקין plagins ותוכנות שיסייעו לנו בעבודה השוטפת על הפרויקט. *עבודה עם לינוקס*: - אין MS ofiice – מקשה על בניית מצגות ודוחות המוצר וכן מעוות עד לאופן בלתי קריא מסמכי דרישות ושונות הנשלחים עי צוות הקורס. - דפדפן קורס פעמים רבות ואינו מאפשר שחזור – מונע עדכון שוטף ב- Trac. - מקום בדיסק אינו מספיק להחזקת פרויקט – נדרש סנכרון עם כוננים מרוחקים אשר עליהם לא ניתן להריץ eclipse (ללא פעולות חילוץ מסובכות). - מחסור בעמדות עבודה ועבודה עם מחשבים ניידים אישיים דורשים סנכרון וביצוע שינויים עמ שהפרויקט על כל חלקיו יעבוד ויראה כמו שצריך בלינוקס. - מחשבים לא מזהים התקני USB – לא ניתן לבצע גיבויים לפרויקט ולהעביר קבצים בין מחשבים. - מערכת ההפעלה נוטת להיתקע לעיתים – דורש אתחול המחשב ואיבוד חומר עליו הושקעה עבודה רבה. *אני יודע שלרוב הבעיות ישנן פתרונות מקומיים**, **אולם אין סיבה שמעבר לשעות הנדרשות לביצוע הפרויקט עצמו נבזבז** **עוד שעות רבות במאבקים עם מחשבי המעבדה**!!!* *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* מלבד שעות המפגש של הקורס ביום שני בבוקר, אני משתדל לא לעבוד במעבדה בדיוק בגלל הסיבות שכבר דוברו בנושא הלינוקס. שטח הדיסק שמוקצה לנו הוא כמעט אפס. זה גורם לכך שחוץ מלפתוח workspace חדש אני לא יכול לעשות כמעט כלום. ראיתי ששחר פרסם איזה שהוא מעקף לנושא הזה בסגנון של – לרדת לחווה בקומה 0 ושם להתחבר ל windows ולהריץ איזה סקריפט. לדעתי זה לא פתרון קביל כי כל משתמש רוצה שתנאי העבודה יהיו מוכנים לו, וברגע שרואים פתרון כזה מיד מעדיפים להמשיך את העבודה בבית. בנושא linux, קודם כל בהיבט החיובי מערכות הלינוקס מגיבות מהר יותר מווינדוס, זה מורגש בעיקר בהתחברות הראשונית - לוג אין בהיבט השלילי הדבר שהכי מפריע בעבודה עם לינוקס הוא תחליפי האופיס שמותקנים בה. רוב המצגות והמסמכים שאנחנו כותבים נערכים גם בבית וגם במעבדה, ויש הרבה בעיות בהעברת קבצים כאלה מאופיס של מיקרוסופט לתחליפי אופיס בעיות כגון עברית/אנגלית, יישור, פונטים וכו בעיה נוספת במעבדה היא שלפעמים כאשר מסיימים לעבוד באקליפס הוא משום מה לא משחרר את ה runtime-workspace הכוונה היא לא לוורקספייס שבו כותבים את הפלאג אין, אלא לוורקספייס שנוצר לצורכי דיבאג כאשר מריצים את הפלאג אין בעותק נוסף של אקליפס מאותו רגע אי אפשר יותר לדבג את הפלאג אין עד שמוחקים את אותו וורקספייס מה שיכול מאוד לתסכל, אם כבר שמרנו שם הגדרות ומצבים שונים *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* Each student has an outrageously low disk space allocated. Complaining about insufficient disk space to Shahar, lead him to find a solution - Using a RAID (via SMB). Though he did make some scripts to establish an smb connection to the remote 500 mb disk space per user HD, One cannot access it without SHARING all of one's data, due to limitations on the permissions. There is NO way to change permissions via Ubuntu, and using the Windows-based PCs at the lab on floor 0 also don't do the trick, due to firewall limitations. In
Re: [Haifux] LINUX and SSDL
Hi, I can offer some suggestions for some of the problems you described below. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Yossi Gil yossi@gmail.com wrote: 2. Running FF3 is not possible if a user is logged on to multiple stations. This isn't a solution for the common user, but an advanced user can run firefox with a command line argument '-no-remote' which would cause it to open a new session, instead of connecting to the previous one. I also have my personal technical question, which you may be able to help in. I use Linux on a wireless home network, and I would like to do a couple of wireless network mounts, prior to any login screens. Any ideas on how I convince the computer to connect to the wireless before I logon? In the latest version of Ubuntu there is a new version of Network Manager, which allows you to set up the wireless settings for the entire system, in addition to set only for the current user. I'm not sure if this will be enough in order for the wireless connection to be set before network mounts are mounted, but then you can play with the order of the system startup scripts. Regards, Haggai Eran ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] LINUX and SSDL
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 08:59:45PM +0200, Haggai Eran wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Yossi Gil yossi@gmail.com wrote: 2. Running FF3 is not possible if a user is logged on to multiple stations. This isn't a solution for the common user, but an advanced user can run firefox with a command line argument '-no-remote' which would cause it to open a new session, instead of connecting to the previous one. But the profile will remain locked. BTW: Konqueror does not have this problem. It baiscally allows a separate instance per display rather than simply locking by the file system. I also have my personal technical question, which you may be able to help in. I use Linux on a wireless home network, and I would like to do a couple of wireless network mounts, prior to any login screens. Any ideas on how I convince the computer to connect to the wireless before I logon? Prior to login or at login? At login: pam-mount (heard the name, never used it) -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Student complaints.
Hi, First I'll state that I'm a first year student here. About the problems the students mention, it seems like the only real problem is MS Office compatibility, I am struggling with this problem daily from the other side - often Word documents that are sent to me are getting scrambled when opened with Open Office. My last resort for such cases is using one of the freely available web based doc2pdf converters. Although I must say that I don't have problems with MS Office users that can't read my Open Office generated files. Anyway maybe you should consider using MS Office with wine\crossover-office (I never used it personally but I guess it should be good). About Firefox hangs on heavy flash sites - usually the heavy flash stuff is just ads, and installing Adblocker Plus make those sites fly. It is really weird to hear that FF crashes on Trac, which generates pretty light pages. (I would guess another tab with ynet was opened at the same time (-: ). As for Eclipse, I've been working with Eclipse (Pydev, Zend Neon, and Aptana with some extras like subvervise) for over an year, and although it gets heavy sometimes I haven't saw it crashes. You didn't give much details on the problem so I can't suggest much, but I'm pretty sure it's a resolvable issue, and if not, file a bug report. I do remember having some that were resolved after changing the JRE version, maybe you should check this way... -Amir. 2009/1/26 Yossi Gil yossi@gmail.com Folks, here is the list of the unedited gripe list of students. As you will see, some of the problems are educational (MS WORD is sexy), other are organizational (not enough quota), while others are technical (Eclipse crashes). I am asking for your help mainly in dealing with the psychological issues... Make it easier and more exciting for the students to work with Linux. פרויקט שנתי בהנדסת תוכנה *Students' feedback on 'working in SSDL' – January 2009* *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* הנושאים היחידים אליהם אתייחס הם נושאי לינוקס. במשך שנתיים אני נמצאת במעבדה כמעט כל יום, כל היום (פרט לזמן בו אני נמצאת בהרצאות) ואין לי תלונות פרט לתלונות שאציג על החלפת ה windows ל linux. - ספציפית לגבי הפרויקט בשבוע האחרון קרו לנו פעמים תקלות בהעברת קבצים ממחשבי המעבדה הביתה. לכולנו יש בבית מחשבי windows וכאשר תכננו משימות לשבוע במחשבי המעבדה בהעברה למחשבים בבית פעמיים היו בעיות התאמת פורמט ומישהו היה צריך להגיע לטכניון (למחשבי linux) כדי לטפל בבעיה לאפשר לקבוצה להמשיך לעבוד בבית. - בכל פעם שעלינו להכין מצגת או גרפים אנו עוברים למחשב שאינו במעבדה בגלל שאנו רגילים לעבוד ב windows ועבודה בו חוסכת לנו זמן. הפרויקט דורש הכנת מצגות רבות במהלכו ולכן נראה לי שהמעבדה שאחת ממטרותיה היא לשרת אותו אמורה לספק כלים נוחים להכנת מצגות וגרפים. - לא פעם קרו לנו תקלות במעבר בין linux ל windows ולהיפך עקב ניסיון לעבוד בבית ובמעבדה. בעיות אלו בזבזו זמן שלא היה מתבזבז אם בשני המקומות היינו עובדים באותה סביבה. - לא פעם היו ל linux תקלות מוזרות שגרמו לסגירת סביבת עבודה ללא שמירה בצורה פתאומית בעת לחיצה על minimize. תקלה אחרת מתלוננת על סביבת עבודה פתוחה במקום אחר (כאשר היא לא) ובכך מונעת עבודה באותה סביבה. - ל linux יש נטיה לא להודיע על כך שהמקום עבור היוזר נגמר מראש. קרה לי שהוא התחיל לשמור קובץ ונתקע באמצע כי לא היה מספיק מקום. לאחר מכן הסביבה נתקעה והייתי צריכה לצאת מה eclipse. הקובץ שלא הצליח להישמר נשמר עד האמצע והיה חסר קטע גדול מאוד של קוד (עבודה של כ 3 שעות) שהיה עלי לשחזר מאפס. אני מניחה שהמחשבים לא יועברו בחזרה ל windows בקרוב. אבל אני מקווה שתלונותינו יעזרו לבאים אחרינו. *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* *עבודה במעבדה*: - קיים מחסור בעמדות עבודה מה שדורש מאנשים לעבוד על מחשבים ניידים אישיים. - בהמשך לסעיף הקודם, קיים גם מחסור בחיבורי רשת לניידים. - לא ניתן להתקין plagins ותוכנות שיסייעו לנו בעבודה השוטפת על הפרויקט. *עבודה עם לינוקס*: - אין MS ofiice – מקשה על בניית מצגות ודוחות המוצר וכן מעוות עד לאופן בלתי קריא מסמכי דרישות ושונות הנשלחים עי צוות הקורס. - דפדפן קורס פעמים רבות ואינו מאפשר שחזור – מונע עדכון שוטף ב- Trac. - מקום בדיסק אינו מספיק להחזקת פרויקט – נדרש סנכרון עם כוננים מרוחקים אשר עליהם לא ניתן להריץ eclipse (ללא פעולות חילוץ מסובכות). - מחסור בעמדות עבודה ועבודה עם מחשבים ניידים אישיים דורשים סנכרון וביצוע שינויים עמ שהפרויקט על כל חלקיו יעבוד ויראה כמו שצריך בלינוקס. - מחשבים לא מזהים התקני USB – לא ניתן לבצע גיבויים לפרויקט ולהעביר קבצים בין מחשבים. - מערכת ההפעלה נוטת להיתקע לעיתים – דורש אתחול המחשב ואיבוד חומר עליו הושקעה עבודה רבה. *אני יודע שלרוב הבעיות ישנן פתרונות מקומיים**, **אולם אין סיבה שמעבר לשעות הנדרשות לביצוע הפרויקט עצמו נבזבז** **עוד שעות רבות במאבקים עם מחשבי המעבדה**!!!* *משוב בנושא העבודה במעבדה* מלבד שעות המפגש של הקורס ביום שני בבוקר, אני משתדל לא לעבוד במעבדה בדיוק בגלל הסיבות שכבר דוברו בנושא הלינוקס. שטח הדיסק שמוקצה לנו הוא כמעט אפס. זה גורם לכך שחוץ מלפתוח workspace חדש אני לא יכול לעשות כמעט כלום.
Re: [Haifux] Student complaints.
I assumed the problems with moving files to windows was the different encoding of new-line characters. unix2dos and dos2unix can be used if that's the case, or their equivalents on windows systems. If eclipse is used, I think it can be changed to use whatever style you like. About eclipse: I've used it a lot, both as a student, working in Java for the OS Project course, and at work, with CDT. With Java it worked great, and I don't remember any crashes. With CDT I think I did see it crash once or twice. Of course such crashes need to be investigated further, and since this list doesn't seem to have many Eclipse experts, I would try to get help here https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/. I've also used PyDev and EclipseFP if it might help anyone. :) Haggai On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Eli Billauer e...@billauer.co.il wrote: Hello again. Now we're talking! To begin with, I see that students mention problems with transporting files to Windows. I suppose that they use Microsoft's compiler, and run into problems with the back and forth? Which brings me to turn to all Linux evangelists out there: You've maybe missed it, but this is the moment you've been all waiting for: Someone has forced CS students to use Linux in the labs. They will end up either hating it and stick to Windows, or adopt it on their own computers, solving most of their annoying problems. And it looks like it's going to depend on, well, us. There may be a need to make a LiveCD for CS students, which would basically be the original Ubuntu disc + utilities for developing if necessary. This could allow students to use the same environment at home, without installing Linux on their hard disks. As this is an recurring process (the disc will need to be upgraded as Ubuntu gets upgraded) I can't see how it's done well by volunteers. But once someone has done it the first time, I suppose it will be pretty easy to repeat it. As for Eclipse: Dear Haifuxers, is any of use using it? Personally, I don't like IDEs, and I believe I have a few people with me on this mailing list. If the policy would be to guide students to work with more down-to-earth tools (XEmacs/vim, make, gcc, ddd etc) I suppose we have quite some material handy, and I suppose it won't be difficult to find someone to speak about these. I believe it's an educational choice, partly because the programmer gets a better feel of the tools, as opposed to IDEs which generally attempt to hocus-pocus. As for MS Office, there's always OpenOffice, which I don't use personally. If the real problem is compatibility between MS and OpenOffice, it's time to remind everyone that OpenOffice exists for Windows as well. Or use the LiveCD solution. As for the other issues, I can only ask one question: Do you have one Linux geek in the lab's support team? To me it seems like these problems require a few hours each to solve, which is peanuts in terms of employment, but too much to ask someone to volunteer for. Other views? Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
[Haifux] Student complaints.
Hi Yossi, Regarding the portable document editing, I suggest introducing the students to latex at an early stage. In addition to being portable, it is also a handy (and sometimes mandatory) tool for writing papers. From the other angle, I believe CS staff should be a model regarding open standards, by publishing documents (either slides or exercises) in open,portable formats such as pdf or simple text. Ii suggest also to make the students aware of decent distributed version control tools (I'm aiming at a talk about hg in Haifux, somewhere down the queue). Another tool with appeal on Linux is valgrind, which can make the students prefer working on Linux, because of the time saving they get. And of course, I side with Eli regarding using a flexible tool chain, such that everyone may mix and match. An editor can be anything which can syntax-highlight and indent properly (nano/pico do not count, neither does textpad), and from my experience, in a mixed environment, users who are used to Windows prefer to stay with their Windows editor. However, an editor is just a typewriter when you actually use the unix tool chain after it. Specifically, the power of the gcc warning switches combined with -Werror and a decent makefile can save a lot of student time, and also has the potential of having students prefer Linux. To sum it up - students need to be made aware of anchor applications on Linux which actually save lots of time, because time is the point which hurts the students who filled the feedback. Those applications will pull them to Linux, instead of being forced into it and hating it. Students who prefer not to use Linux should be able to do so partially (=at home), without incompatibility problems, by using an interchangeable tool chain and open fiie formats. Orna. 2009/1/26 Yossi Gil yossi@gmail.com Folks, here is the list of the unedited gripe list of students. As you will see, some of the problems are educational (MS WORD is sexy), other are organizational (not enough quota), while others are technical (Eclipse crashes). I am asking for your help mainly in dealing with the psychological issues... Make it easier and more exciting for the students to work with Linux. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
[Haifux] Long messages
Hi All, As some of us have recently discovered, there is a limit to the size of a haifux message, and the first message in the current thread about student complaints is about this size. So please, to avoid nagging Orr for each mail, do not include the original message when replying. it is not personal if you get bounced... Orna. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Student complaints.
And of course, I side with Eli regarding using a flexible tool chain, such that everyone may mix and match. An editor can be anything which can syntax-highlight and indent properly (nano/pico do not count, neither does textpad) I somehow feel the need to defend nano: set autoindent in .nanorc will set autoindent on nano. It's just as easy to add syntax highlighting. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Haifux Digest, Vol 17, Issue 15
Hi, some time reader, first time writer. I'm a second year CS student and had to work with the Linux in the farms for a while now and frankly, I love the idea that someone finally forced me to use Linux. I think it's a good thing. I've already had stuff explained to me and had a chance to explain things to others. I already told people that they better get used to using the Linux and Unix on the farm machines. Firstly, because they have to; Secondly, because it's better; And thirdly, because it's fun. Problems of Windows\Linux compatibility with code files I solved with Notepad++. I don't know if there's a Linux version or a Linux substitute but it's an awesome writer for windows that can display context in many languages and can also convert to\from Windows from\to Linux formatting. Saved me a lot of trouble. The new Open Office version (3 and up) is completely compatible with MS-Office 2007 documents and gave me no trouble as much as I've used it, making it better than MS-Office if compatibility is the question. It looks different but doesn't require that much of a leap to change to. And it's freely available to both Windows and Linux users. I used vim to program on the Linux and Unix machines but my brother recommended Eclipse so I want to try that if anyone is willing to teach me. I know of a Linux geek in the CS farm's support team but I think it takes more than that. I don't know how the W2L lectures went before but I agree that installing Linux, as far as I tried Ubuntu, is pretty straight forward. It's all the configuration afterwords that's troublesome. Up until now I have failed completely at configuring mine for WiFi and a secondary display and those two, along with 'How the hell do I run a Virtual Machine\Box on my Linux?' are the major hurdles before I completely switch to Linux. So, any info on that will be welcome. (I've tried Ubuntu 8.04 and fiddled with Satanic slightly but not much) On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:38 PM, haifux-requ...@haifux.org wrote: Message: 4 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:51:10 +0200 From: Eli Billauer e...@billauer.co.il Subject: Re: [Haifux] Student complaints. To: haifux@haifux.org Cc: Yossi Gil yossi@gmail.com Message-ID: 497e142e.9080...@billauer.co.il Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Hello again. Now we're talking! To begin with, I see that students mention problems with transporting files to Windows. I suppose that they use Microsoft's compiler, and run into problems with the back and forth? Which brings me to turn to all Linux evangelists out there: You've maybe missed it, but this is the moment you've been all waiting for: Someone has forced CS students to use Linux in the labs. They will end up either hating it and stick to Windows, or adopt it on their own computers, solving most of their annoying problems. And it looks like it's going to depend on, well, us. There may be a need to make a LiveCD for CS students, which would basically be the original Ubuntu disc + utilities for developing if necessary. This could allow students to use the same environment at home, without installing Linux on their hard disks. As this is an recurring process (the disc will need to be upgraded as Ubuntu gets upgraded) I can't see how it's done well by volunteers. But once someone has done it the first time, I suppose it will be pretty easy to repeat it. As for Eclipse: Dear Haifuxers, is any of use using it? Personally, I don't like IDEs, and I believe I have a few people with me on this mailing list. If the policy would be to guide students to work with more down-to-earth tools (XEmacs/vim, make, gcc, ddd etc) I suppose we have quite some material handy, and I suppose it won't be difficult to find someone to speak about these. I believe it's an educational choice, partly because the programmer gets a better feel of the tools, as opposed to IDEs which generally attempt to hocus-pocus. As for MS Office, there's always OpenOffice, which I don't use personally. If the real problem is compatibility between MS and OpenOffice, it's time to remind everyone that OpenOffice exists for Windows as well. Or use the LiveCD solution. As for the other issues, I can only ask one question: Do you have one Linux geek in the lab's support team? To me it seems like these problems require a few hours each to solve, which is peanuts in terms of employment, but too much to ask someone to volunteer for. Other views? Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il -- Don't let people drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance. And no one ever said being a heretic was easy. May we meet in Less Interesting Times... http://eran.geek.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Student complaints.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda ladyp...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Yossi, Regarding the portable document editing, I suggest introducing the students to latex at an early stage. In addition to being portable, it is also a handy (and sometimes mandatory) tool for writing papers. With Beamer it also becomes a very powerful tool for slideshows. Using LyX will reduce students' complaints :) From the other angle, I believe CS staff should be a model regarding open standards, by publishing documents (either slides or exercises) in open,portable formats such as pdf or simple text. Part of the problem is that students like (or at least used to like) using the lab for all of their Technion work, and unfortunately many courses still distribute MS Word files. Also, many students collaborate on exercises with people not in the lab, and receive MS Word files from them. Ii suggest also to make the students aware of decent distributed version control tools (I'm aiming at a talk about hg in Haifux, somewhere down the queue). I can reprise my git talk as well, if it helps. Another tool with appeal on Linux is valgrind, which can make the students prefer working on Linux, because of the time saving they get. I'm not sure how relevant this is, as (IIRC) the projects in this lab are in Java. -- Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to be. - William Hazlitt Ohad Lutzky ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
