Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Zvi Devir wrote: However, I won't start the process with you unless you really want to go all the way (up to district court if required). It is not at all trivial that, should the small claims court fail, the district court is an option. If memory serves me correctly, you are not automatically allowed to appeal small claims court decisions. You can ask for permission to appeal, but there is nothing forcing the judge to agree. If you don't like it, you need to press the claim in the regular (Shalom) court. Shachar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Quoting Shachar Shemesh: Zvi Devir wrote: However, I won't start the process with you unless you really want to go all the way (up to district court if required). It is not at all trivial that, should the small claims court fail, the district court is an option. If memory serves me correctly, you are not automatically allowed to appeal small claims court decisions. You can ask for permission to appeal, but there is nothing forcing the judge to agree. If you don't like it, you need to press the claim in the regular (Shalom) court. Shachar That's right, appealing small claims court decisions is not an automatic process. However, district court decision can set a precedent, while small claims or regular courts do not. Also, some arguments are more easily accepted in district court and not in regular or small claim courts. Let just say that I have allocated some funds and got some legal advise just in case I will loose at small claims court and have to take the case one step further. Luckily or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, Dell decided to sign a reconciliation agreement with me, so no precedent was set. Zvi. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:52:47AM +0200, Dan Shimshoni wrote: Hi everybody, Reminder: On 3.12.08, we heard about Zvi Devir and his Successful Windows Vista refund - see: http://www.mail-archive.com/haifux@haifux.org/msg03372.html And later, there was a lecture in Haifux by Zvi Devir about it: see: http://www.mail-archive.com/haifux@haifux.org/msg03451.html And now what ? I went last week to two stores in Haifa area, of very large and country-wide computer network stores; I do not want to mention names here. I asked about some models of laptops (Lenovo and others) ; they told me that they are not selling these models of laptops without Windows Vista, and that it is everywhere thus. When I told them about Zvi Devir and his case, they laughed. It did not interest them, and they said that they are not going to change anything in this policy. Cheaper Dell models in Israel seem to be distributed with FreeDOS as an OS. Some Acer laptops are distributed with some Linux distribution (Linpus. Yeah, a distro iwth such a name really exists). Not sure about others. Best of luck if you go for a more expensive model. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Dan Shimshoni wrote: The struggle must go on! Sincerely, I don't know what for. The situation is not going to change because a very small group of people starts to bother computer stores with an unusual request. Asking to check the laptop for Linux compatibility with a Live CD makes sense, but with all respect, I find this struggle pointless. Unless you enjoy it, of course. My bet is that Linux will become mainstream because non-computer oriented companies with more than 10 computers will discover the advantage of maintaining the computers with Linux on them. And once ordinary people start to get used to it, the barrier is away. This is slowly happening, unless you've noticed that. And that will go on, unless the major Linux distros will be so happy about copying Windows' bells and whistles, that they'll adopt their flaws as well. Which is happening too. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Eli, why pay for an OS when you don't use it. Everyone has the right to choose whatever OS he wants, be it windows XP, linux, windows server 2003 or even for the sake of the argument buy a new laptop to use it for parts. I will elaborate further, even the seller can earn more from this. Lets say he sells separately laptop and OS separately. He can earn more from selling the OS separately according to the customer choice. This is a win-win situation. Sorana On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Eli Billauer e...@billauer.co.il wrote: Dan Shimshoni wrote: The struggle must go on! Sincerely, I don't know what for. The situation is not going to change because a very small group of people starts to bother computer stores with an unusual request. Asking to check the laptop for Linux compatibility with a Live CD makes sense, but with all respect, I find this struggle pointless. Unless you enjoy it, of course. My bet is that Linux will become mainstream because non-computer oriented companies with more than 10 computers will discover the advantage of maintaining the computers with Linux on them. And once ordinary people start to get used to it, the barrier is away. This is slowly happening, unless you've noticed that. And that will go on, unless the major Linux distros will be so happy about copying Windows' bells and whistles, that they'll adopt their flaws as well. Which is happening too. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 11:33:16AM +0200, Eli Billauer wrote: Dan Shimshoni wrote: The struggle must go on! Sincerely, I don't know what for. The situation is not going to change because a very small group of people starts to bother computer stores with an unusual request. Asking to check the laptop for Linux compatibility with a Live CD makes sense, but with all respect, I find this struggle pointless. Unless you enjoy it, of course. You mean: asking them to do what Dell already does today in Israel (preload with FreeDOS) is too much? -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Hello, Somehow I had a feeling I was going to write another message in this subject. Tzafrir Cohen wrote: You mean: asking them to do what Dell already does today in Israel (preload with FreeDOS) is too much? If they're not doing so voluntarily, yes. A computer vendor, like any vendor, has a group of people which should have a synchronized view of what they are selling and supporting. The more complicated the picture gets, the more flavors the products have, the more resources they need to maintain that. It sounds simple when you look at your own single request, but it becomes a mess when you hear all crazy things people are asking for. So I understand why they say no. They have the right to bundle Windows as they see fit, and we have the right to buy what we want. Since Linux users are a drop in the sea (someone said 0.5%?) asking for a non-Windows computer is in almost all cases equal to I'll install some cracked Windows I have. As for getting a refund, I'm really not sure that will work in a larger scale. It worked once, basically because Dell's main concern was to finish the story with as little noise as possible (that didn't work...). But let's face it: If you buy a travel package including hotel and flight, you can't get a refund for the hotel, and surely not for the price the hotel alone would cost you (unless the hotel doesn't meet its promises). And everyone knows you can get an hotel and a flight separately. And yes, there are some hotels which you can get a bed in only through a package deal. The laptop and the OS are bundled as a package deal, and you know it when you buy the laptop. Before the installation, your asked to contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for a refund or credit unless you approve with the license agreement. Their refund policy can be 0 NIS as well. Exactly as you won't get a refund if you choose not to sleep in the hotel, which you got bundled with the flight. To summarize my view: If there will be a demand for Linux or non-OS laptops, don't worry. Someone will supply it. But as long as this is something very few request, it's in a line with I want a laptop manufactured in Dolphin-friendly countries or something like that. Yet another annoying customer. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
Orr Dunkelman wrote:. The only reason Microsoft cannot have the benefit of Buy us or else... is the fact that they control too large portion of the market. The moment they will go under 70%, they would be able to actually say the above (70% may be country dependent). I have to say that the monopoly argument is refreshing. I don't know about the law in this case, but given that there are stable alternatives around for basically any of their products, and they are all for free, they are in no position to play monopoly games. On the contrary, they have been forced to drop prices because they're competing with free software. Not to mention deals with governments, driven by the fear to lose a huge number of desktops. So even though they have so-and-so of the market, in essence they don't control it anymore. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
As far as I've seen, it tells the user to check the policy for refund. It can very well be to cancel the whole deal, for a refund of the whole sum. And the software can also be considered a present. I mean, suppose that you go to the supermarket, and you get an extra piece of something because you bought for X shekels. Do you think you'll have a chance to get a refund for that? Then just erase the Windows and know that you would have paid the same price had you declined the present from the beginning. But in any case, the _effort_ of asking Dell for a non-Windows laptop is important, because the more they hear it the likelier they will be to provide it. And if you bought a travel package, and then found out something was wrong about it, wouldn't the best expectation be to simply cancel the deal, all money back? The thing you're missing here, is that when you buy a laptop, you're aware that there it comes with Windows. The only thing you can complain about, is that you were forced to agree to something you don't agree with. The only sensible solution in this case, in normal business terms, is to cancel the deal. Completely. Yes, after you've made a stink about Windows. Let Dell decide that the best course of action is to cancel the transaction, rather than to refund Windows. And at a bare bare minimum you've shown that Linux users exist. That's the current problem: they don't think that we exist because we are not vocal enough. I'm glad that Zvi Devir made some noise, because it got the message through, that a computer can run something else than Windows. But as far as I'm concerned, that's all there is to it. Then do that. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Windows-Free laptops in Haifa
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Eli Billauer e...@billauer.co.il wrote: As far as I've seen, it tells the user to check the policy for refund. It can very well be to cancel the whole deal, for a refund of the whole sum. And the software can also be considered a present. I mean, suppose that you go to the supermarket, and you get an extra piece of something because you bought for X shekels. Do you think you'll have a chance to get a refund for that? And if you bought a travel package, and then found out something was wrong about it, wouldn't the best expectation be to simply cancel the deal, all money back? The thing you're missing here, is that when you buy a laptop, you're aware that there it comes with Windows. The only thing you can complain about, is that you were forced to agree to something you don't agree with. The only sensible solution in this case, in normal business terms, is to cancel the deal. Completely. I'm glad that Zvi Devir made some noise, because it got the message through, that a computer can run something else than Windows. But as far as I'm concerned, that's all there is to it. When shopping for my laptop (Dell Inspiron 1525) I found out that windows Vista basic have a NEGATIVE price of 200$ - the N series which had linux preinstalled cost 200 USD more than the normal variation, which was (and still is) in a constant sale, offering it 250$ cheaper. Therefore, I got a machine which had windows preinstalled, and upgraded to linux upon arrival. On the upper side though, since Dell officially support linux on their laptops, the hardware support is excellent, and the laptop is working with Ubuntu 8.10 flawlessly (except for video tearing due to problems in Intel's drivers). --Shachar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
