Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
בסגנון תגובות למהרשת: צבי, תעשה לי ילד ברצינות, כל הכבוד On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:00, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Discussions mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Bravo Zvi! What was the reason not to go to court, though? I mean, I don't suppose you needed the 550 so badly... :-) What is the reason to go to court? They agreed to giving him everything he asked for, plus not require him to keep silent about it. It's not as if small claims can set a binding precedence anyways. Shachar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
כל הכבוד! לכבוד להצטרף למברכים. כל הכבוד על היוזמה ועל המאבק בגלגלי הבירוקרטיה. אני משער שהתהליך לא היה קצר, מקווה שבעתיד יהיה הרבה יותר פשוט. אגב, שימו לב לתגובות המפרגנות מהמגיבים בווינט. רם-און. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Discussions mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Just in case you missed it, it is the lead item on The Register, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/dell_windows_eula_israel/ (shall we expect a slashdot item soon, too? :). It is a reasonably faithful account (compared to Ynet's original), but I also looked at the comments, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/dell_windows_eula_israel/comments/ and there are a couple of postings describing the totally hassle-free (an email in one case, 2 emails in another) refund from Dell Ireland. Compared to that, Zvi's experience looks a) painful, and b) not worthwhile except for the publicity and the precedent. I mean that the time and effort it took to get NIS 550 back was probably not worth the money. I am obviously speaking from the personal finance point of view and not the good of society at large point of view - the importance of the latter point is obvious. Zvi, any comments on how much time and effort (in man-hours? :) it all (preparing and filing the suit, negotiations, getting the refund, depositing the cheque, etc.) took? Another question, does anyone have experience with ordering a laptop from a major manufacturer (Dell, Lenovo) over the Internet - from Ireland or any other place - without an OS? Is it easier than buying a laptop in Israel and going through a small claims court to get a refund? It is cheaper or more expensive? Do laptops come with a world-wide license, so that even if I buy one from, say, Dell Ireland, Dell Israel will provide me with full hardware support? Oh, well, Dell Israel are likely to say something like, Since you are not running Windows your warranty is void, and then one would have to go through a small claims court again, attaching the email exchange and the refund confirmation to the suit... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Oh, well, Dell Israel are likely to say something like, Since you are not running Windows your warranty is void, and then one would have to go through a small claims court again, attaching the email exchange and the refund confirmation to the suit... I'd like to comment on this. I have a fujitsu siemens. I installed linux and the laptop was many times at repair. Their mode of operation was to pull out my hd, insert a hd with windows, check, repair hardware and insert back my hd. So this scheme can work for every one. They usually say at the lab, backup, etc. You always can claim that you don't ask them to repair the os, but only the hardware. They have their test disk which checks everything, independent of the os. And as last point, ask them where it's written that you have warranty only if you have windows. A lawyer won't write such a thing in these agreements/eula. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Amichai Rotman wrote: Zvi, I salute you for the effort you took for the grater good! Yashar Koach! As for Israeli shops selling Laptops with pre-installed Linux - I remember a guy at the last August Penguin (2008) selling said Laptops by the staircase. I can't remember the name but I know he has a web site... Can any of you remember ? Affordy : http://start.affordy.com/affordy/affordy.htm Cheers -- Meir Kriheli .::. Amichai Rotman UIN#: 6401746 Registered Linux User#: 201192 [http://counter.li.org/] Registered Ubuntu User #12851 [http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net] PLEASE READ: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html .::. On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 01:04, sara fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, well, Dell Israel are likely to say something like, Since you are not running Windows your warranty is void, and then one would have to go through a small claims court again, attaching the email exchange and the refund confirmation to the suit... I'd like to comment on this. I have a fujitsu siemens. I installed linux and the laptop was many times at repair. Their mode of operation was to pull out my hd, insert a hd with windows, check, repair hardware and insert back my hd. So this scheme can work for every one. They usually say at the lab, backup, etc. You always can claim that you don't ask them to repair the os, but only the hardware. They have their test disk which checks everything, independent of the os. And as last point, ask them where it's written that you have warranty only if you have windows. A lawyer won't write such a thing in these agreements/eula. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
I believe that MIchael Eitan will pick up the glove. If someone can reach him, it would be great. On 12/6/08, Dan Shimshoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, First I would like to say big thanks to the following bloggers, who mentioned zvi dvir and his struggle; Shachar Shemesh, Oren Maurer, Ori Idan, Doron Ofek. You are great! (Did I miss anyone ? Sorry if I missed anyone, these is what I saw in: http://planet.linux.org.il/) Yet I think it is not enough and I wish more bloggers would accept my call and mention zvi dvir and his struggle in their blogs; mind you, googling for 'zvi dvir' (in hebrew) gives now less than 450 results ! I wish it would be thousands! I wish that there will be some serious initiative to take advantage of this precedent and to change the current status of PC/latop computer market in Israel ; I would wish that some law will be passed that would enforce ***every*** computer store in Israel to sale a PC/laptop with no OS on it, and also would enforce every advertisment of these stores to declare this option clearly. This is election time now. Maybe an Atzuma should be prepared ? maybe some parliament members will be interested in such an initiative ? Can anyone think of something ? I think that taking advantage of this precedent in such a way can really benefit the open source community in Israel. Regards, Dan On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan Shimshoni wrote: Zvi, - You are our Open Source hero of the week (or maybe of the year, or maybe decade!). Personally, I think the importance of windows refund reach far beyond the scope of using Linux without paying the Microsoft tax. I wrote about it in my blog (http://blog.shemesh.biz/?p=568), but the gist of it is this: The entire validity of a EULA hangs on the article in it Zvi used - without it, there is no informed consent to the EULA and the entire agreement is null and void. This means that them resisting the refund is actually a good thing. What you need to sue them for is for not letting you move your copy of vista to a new computer, and use their refusal to give refunds as the proof that you did not accept the agreement, and are therefor not bound by it. Shachar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Hello, First I would like to say big thanks to the following bloggers, who mentioned zvi dvir and his struggle; Shachar Shemesh, Oren Maurer, Ori Idan, Doron Ofek. You are great! (Did I miss anyone ? Sorry if I missed anyone, these is what I saw in: http://planet.linux.org.il/) Yet I think it is not enough and I wish more bloggers would accept my call and mention zvi dvir and his struggle in their blogs; mind you, googling for 'zvi dvir' (in hebrew) gives now less than 450 results ! I wish it would be thousands! I wish that there will be some serious initiative to take advantage of this precedent and to change the current status of PC/latop computer market in Israel ; I would wish that some law will be passed that would enforce ***every*** computer store in Israel to sale a PC/laptop with no OS on it, and also would enforce every advertisment of these stores to declare this option clearly. This is election time now. Maybe an Atzuma should be prepared ? maybe some parliament members will be interested in such an initiative ? Can anyone think of something ? I think that taking advantage of this precedent in such a way can really benefit the open source community in Israel. Regards, Dan On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan Shimshoni wrote: Zvi, - You are our Open Source hero of the week (or maybe of the year, or maybe decade!). Personally, I think the importance of windows refund reach far beyond the scope of using Linux without paying the Microsoft tax. I wrote about it in my blog (http://blog.shemesh.biz/?p=568), but the gist of it is this: The entire validity of a EULA hangs on the article in it Zvi used - without it, there is no informed consent to the EULA and the entire agreement is null and void. This means that them resisting the refund is actually a good thing. What you need to sue them for is for not letting you move your copy of vista to a new computer, and use their refusal to give refunds as the proof that you did not accept the agreement, and are therefor not bound by it. Shachar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
I am interested. On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All. Sorry for the previous bad HTML email... I wrote to tell that Slashdot [http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/12/03/1949230.shtml] also got the story, and placed a link to the Haifux website. I am thinking of preparing a talk for Haifux about my fight sometime in the near future, if there is interest ;-) Cheers, Zvi. Zvi Devir wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
2008/12/4 Oleg Goldshmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Another question, does anyone have experience with ordering a laptop from a major manufacturer (Dell, Lenovo) over the Internet - from Ireland or any other place - without an OS? Is it easier than buying a laptop in Israel and going through a small claims court to get a refund? It is cheaper or more expensive? Do laptops come with a world-wide license, so that even if I buy one from, say, Dell Ireland, Dell Israel will provide me with full hardware support? Oh, well, Dell Israel are likely to say something like, Since you are not running Windows your warranty is void, and then one would have to go through a small claims court again, attaching the email exchange and the refund confirmation to the suit... With my Dell Inspiron, it was cheaper to order it with Windows than with FreeDOS, and Ubuntu was not offered at the time. I ordered the laptop from the 'states and had a partner that was traveling bring it to me. That was the most hassle-free and least-expensive option. Of course, it depends upon someone traveling across the pond in your favor. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 10:26:32AM +0200, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Bravo Zvi! What was the reason not to go to court, though? I mean, I don't suppose you needed the 550 so badly... :-) Sure he does: http://www.hamakor.org.il/content/view/41/51/ ;-) -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
That is not just a newsflash, that is a great achievement for you and for all of us! Well done! Orna. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Bravo Zvi! What was the reason not to go to court, though? I mean, I don't suppose you needed the 550 so badly... :-) Eyal ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Well done. Congratulations. Thanks for insisting for publicity as well. Now it's time for party. ;-) On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Congratulations. You rock :) On 12/3/08, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
That is fantastic!!! Have you gave a notable statement yet? (one small step for man kinda statement...) On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
Zvi, - First, congratulations for winning this important battle ! - Second, I myself intend to buy a laptop in the near future. And indeed, after surfing many israeli websites, I found out that all of them come with windows. I don't intend to use windows on my laptop. So may I ask: How long this process you ran took ? (from going to court till getting that payment) ? what do you advice me to do ? Or let's put it this way: it seems that your important struggle took a lot of time and headache. You won your case. However, from what appears in that news item, I doubt whether it is a precedent. They say there that it was a pshara, and it says there that they are not binded by this case and it is לפנים משורת הדין, So what do you advice me to do ? to buy and then to go to court ? It seems to me that all the hassle of such a procedure , and traveling from the north the vendor offices (usually in the center) and back in case I will win it, is simply is not acceptable for me. And if I am not wrong, I heard that there are man known vendors who seel laptops with free linux abroad. And this is true for quite a time. Regards, Rafi On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Zvi Devir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Check it up: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3632367,00.html ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
wtg! I'd frame the cheque and hang it on my living room wall if I were you! On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very, very well done. And I'm not talking about the money. I'm talking about the fact that you got this issue into Ynet and got the attention of some major positions at Dell, and most likely some other vendors. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
On Wednesday, 3 בDecember 2008, Zvi Devir wrote: News Flash: The first Windows refund in Israel! Just read the news. This is a very big WOW and the PR was also very good. Thanks for your time and effort. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron From Microsoft's perspective, there's a sucker born every minute ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] Successful Windows Vista refund!!
2008/12/3 Rafi Gordon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Zvi, - First, congratulations for winning this important battle ! - Second, I myself intend to buy a laptop in the near future. And indeed, after surfing many israeli websites, I found out that all of them come with windows. I don't intend to use windows on my laptop. So may I ask: How long this process you ran took ? (from going to court till getting that payment) ? what do you advice me to do ? Or let's put it this way: it seems that your important struggle took a lot of time and headache. You won your case. However, from what appears in that news item, I doubt whether it is a precedent. They say there that it was a pshara, and it says there that they are not binded by this case and it is לפנים משורת הדין, So what do you advice me to do ? to buy and then to go to court ? It seems to me that all the hassle of such a procedure , and traveling from the north the vendor offices (usually in the center) and back in case I will win it, is simply is not acceptable for me. And if I am not wrong, I heard that there are man known vendors who seel laptops with free linux abroad. And this is true for quite a time. Regards, Rafi Rafi, contact Dell in Israel and tell them that you want a computer with either Ubuntu/FreeDOS (they call these Open Source Laptops in Dell-speak) or no OS at all. If we do not start telling the distributors that we want this, then how can we expect them to provide it? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
