Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-29 Thread Freaky Clown
http://vim-adventures.com/


On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:41 PM, Bob Dunlop bob.dun...@xyzzy.org.uk wrote:

 On Wed, May 28 at 05:14, Anton Piatek wrote:
  Excellent!
 
  In my line of work everyone should know at least vi, as it is the only
  editor on Unix and z/OS you can expect to find.

 Vi that uses a cursor addressable terminal doesn't it.
 If that's not available you'll have to use ed.
 How's your ed these days ?

 Mine's fair to middling, I had occasion to use it a few weeks back.

 nvi is basically the same program I've been using fpr 30+ years.
 Why have to learn new tricks with every upgrade.
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-29 Thread Imran Chaudhry
On 28 May 2014 10:34, Alan Pope a...@popey.com wrote:
 When a list has precious else to talk about (I guess Linux works for
 everyone most of the time now), and the members have been around a
 long time the flames are easier to start.

I never considered that reason for the low-traffic (that everything
mostly just works) but it's probably true!
I figured that the community is more fragmented now as there is
Facebook, Google+, Twitter and meetup.com's all around us.

On the mostly works now front, I had an interesting read through
this thread recently.
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/26fjei/as_a_linux_user_since_only_2009_i_just_want_to/

I think all the veterans on this list deserve a pat on the back for
sticking with Linux all these years ;)

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Tony Wood

On 27/05/14 15:19, Owain Clarke wrote:


On 27/05/14 12:44, Joseph Bennie wrote:

or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about
the little things :)
many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and
attention brought to them!



+1

So I completely failed to start a vicious flame war :(




One of the things I like best about our list is the paucity of flaming.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Anton Piatek
It certainly seems to be easy enough to start a flame war

On 28 May 2014 10:20, Tony Wood tonywoo...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 On 27/05/14 15:19, Owain Clarke wrote:
 On 27/05/14 12:44, Joseph Bennie wrote:

 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about
 the little things :)
 many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and
 attention brought to them!

 +1

 So I completely failed to start a vicious flame war :(

 One of the things I like best about our list is the paucity of flaming.

(Does this count as top or bottom posting?)

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Alan Pope
On 28 May 2014 11:23, Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:
 It certainly seems to be easy enough to start a flame war

 On 28 May 2014 10:20, Tony Wood tonywoo...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 On 27/05/14 15:19, Owain Clarke wrote:
 On 27/05/14 12:44, Joseph Bennie wrote:

 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about
 the little things :)
 many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and
 attention brought to them!

 +1

 So I completely failed to start a vicious flame war :(

 One of the things I like best about our list is the paucity of flaming.

 (Does this count as top or bottom posting?)


When a list has precious else to talk about (I guess Linux works for
everyone most of the time now), and the members have been around a
long time the flames are easier to start.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Freaky Clown
Surprised this hasn't turned into well your mail client is shit - use
pine/elm/outlook/lotus rage already.


On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Alan Pope a...@popey.com wrote:

 On 28 May 2014 11:23, Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:
  It certainly seems to be easy enough to start a flame war
 
  On 28 May 2014 10:20, Tony Wood tonywoo...@ntlworld.com wrote:
  On 27/05/14 15:19, Owain Clarke wrote:
  On 27/05/14 12:44, Joseph Bennie wrote:
 
  or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about
  the little things :)
  many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and
  attention brought to them!
 
  +1
 
  So I completely failed to start a vicious flame war :(
 
  One of the things I like best about our list is the paucity of flaming.
 
  (Does this count as top or bottom posting?)
 

 When a list has precious else to talk about (I guess Linux works for
 everyone most of the time now), and the members have been around a
 long time the flames are easier to start.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Anton Piatek
Excellent!

In my line of work everyone should know at least vi, as it is the only
editor on Unix and z/OS you can expect to find.

I've never had time to learn emacs...

Anton
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On 28 May 2014 17:09, Daniel Llewellyn diddle...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 28 May 2014 16:21, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Surprised this hasn't turned into well your mail client is shit - use
 pine/elm/outlook/lotus rage already.


 well now that you mention it...

 in other news, I'm learning vim today. I quite like.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Daniel Llewellyn
On 28 May 2014 16:21, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Surprised this hasn't turned into well your mail client is shit - use
 pine/elm/outlook/lotus rage already.


well now that you mention it...

in other news, I'm learning vim today. I quite like.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Stuart Sears
On 28/05/14 17:08, Daniel Llewellyn wrote:
 
 On 28 May 2014 16:21, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com
 mailto:freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Surprised this hasn't turned into well your mail client is shit -
 use pine/elm/outlook/lotus rage already.

give it time. And don't forget good old mailx. Or mutt. :)

 well now that you mention it...
 
 in other news, I'm learning vim today. I quite like.

You'll be learning it for years. Nearly every day I find something else
I didn't know :)

Stuart
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Victor Churchill
On 28 May 2014 17:14, Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:

 Excellent!

 In my line of work everyone should know at least vi, as it is the only
 editor on Unix and z/OS you can expect to find.

 I've never had time to learn emacs...


I think David may have had a bit of a tongue in cheek when he wrote that
about vim...

I found vi wasn't challenging enough so started using emacs 15 years ago
and have almost got started :)

I did use old vi a lot, and do still have to use it sometimes if I can't
install a proper editor

tee hee



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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-28 Thread Bob Dunlop
On Wed, May 28 at 05:14, Anton Piatek wrote:
 Excellent!
 
 In my line of work everyone should know at least vi, as it is the only
 editor on Unix and z/OS you can expect to find.

Vi that uses a cursor addressable terminal doesn't it.
If that's not available you'll have to use ed.
How's your ed these days ?

Mine's fair to middling, I had occasion to use it a few weeks back.

nvi is basically the same program I've been using fpr 30+ years.
Why have to learn new tricks with every upgrade.
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Joseph Bennie

 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about the little 
 things :)
 many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and attention 
 brought to them!   
 


+1 
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Michael Pavling
On 27 May 2014 12:37, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:

 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about the
 little things :)
 many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and attention
 brought to them


yup... and if I wasn't spending so much effort trying to reverse-read
upside-down conversations to try to work out what part of a reply might be
in relation to a previous comment, I would have more time to devote to
those other issues.


In all seriousness... when posting to a mailing list of many hundreds (or
more) people, it strikes me as presumptuous (if not a little rude) to
assume that the as the writer the minute extra of my time it would take me
to compose well a reply is more important to save than the accumulated
hundreds of minutes of effort the readership have to expend :-/
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Alan Pope
On 27 May 2014 13:37, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:
 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about the
 little things :)

What, like this?

https://twitter.com/__Freakyclown__/status/471250625335164928

:)

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Anton Piatek
On 27 May 2014 12:51, Michael Pavling pavl...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 27 May 2014 12:37, Freaky Clown freakycl...@gmail.com wrote:

 or you know... you could just get on with life and not worry about the
 little things :)
 many more fields of issues in the world that need more time and attention
 brought to them


 yup... and if I wasn't spending so much effort trying to reverse-read
 upside-down conversations to try to work out what part of a reply might be
 in relation to a previous comment, I would have more time to devote to those
 other issues.


 In all seriousness... when posting to a mailing list of many hundreds (or
 more) people, it strikes me as presumptuous (if not a little rude) to assume
 that the as the writer the minute extra of my time it would take me to
 compose well a reply is more important to save than the accumulated hundreds
 of minutes of effort the readership have to expend :-/

Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?
If it really were, then all mail clients would make top-posting hard.

The fact that most of the corporate mail clients don't speaks volumes
for how the rest of the world thinks email should work.

Personally I'd rather see secure email solved rather than top/bottom posting

Anton

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Michael Pavling
On 27 May 2014 12:54, Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:

 Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?
 If it really were, then all mail clients would make top-posting hard.


If I wrote my reply in ROT13, it would be harder to read.
Ohg rznvy pyvragf qba'g cerirag zr sebz qbvat fb.


The fact that most of the corporate mail clients don't speaks volumes
 for how the rest of the world thinks email should work.


Writing an email at the top because that's where the cursor is, is like
messing in your trousers because that's where your backside is. (sanitised
for a family-friendly list :-)

That cursors appear at the top is a good thing - if it defaulted to the
bottom, I'd have to scroll all the way back up to start reading the content
of the email.

But just because I read from the top, doesn't mean that's where my reply
should go. It *should* go wherever is best for it.



 Personally I'd rather see secure email solved rather than top/bottom
 posting


Quite... it's a very different issue though (I'd rather see malaria
eradicated... but it has little to do with a discussion about top-posting
;-)


PS You might notice that I don't 'bottom post' or 'top post'... I try to
make my replies address the content I'm talking about.
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Joseph Bennie
On a side note this is how all the emails read if you use delete a lot 
unnecessary words :)  …. 


 worry about the

 little things

  that need more time and attention

 brought to them
 

  if I was

 spending so much effort to

 read

 conversations to try to work out

 a reply 

 in relation to a

  comment, I would

 devote

 more time to to those
 other issues.
 
 In all seriousness…

  the minute of my time it would take me to
 compose a reply is more important

  than the accumulated hundreds
 of minutes of 
 
 Your presumption

 and

  speaks volumes
 for how the rest of the world thinks

  I'd rather see

 that

 No trees were destroyed, however, a
 significant number

 were

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Vic

 Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?

 A: Well, you wouldn't want to hear the punchline before the joke, would you?
 Q: Why is top posting bad?

 Personally I'd rather see secure email solved rather than top/bottom
 posting

Secure email was solved many years ago. That it is not prevalent is simply
because very few people care enough to use it.

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Lisi
On Tuesday 27 May 2014 12:54:48 Anton Piatek wrote:
 Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?

I find it so much harder to read that I usually just give up in despair.

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Victor Churchill
On 27 May 2014 12:54, Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:

 Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?
 If it really were, then all mail clients would make top-posting hard.

 The fact that most of the corporate mail clients don't speaks volumes
 for how the rest of the world thinks email should work.

 Personally I'd rather see secure email solved rather than top/bottom
 posting


Ironically Anton's reply was easier to read and made a lot more sense
because it was interleaved.

I just tried to imagine what this thread itself would be like to read if it
was all written in untrimmed GMail/Outlook/Apple top-posted form.

I think it would be up to 340+ messages by now with Owain's original
repeated 25 times.

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Bournemouth
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-27 Thread Brad Rogers
On Tue, 27 May 2014 12:54:48 +0100
Anton Piatek an...@piatek.co.uk wrote:

Hello Anton,

because everything flows nicely, as it should. 
page looking for the start of the next paragraph?  No, of course not,
Finally, when reading a book, do you expect to have to jump about the

From right to left, yes, but not bottom to top.
My point being, no written language truly writes from bottom to top.  

now that I've done it?
me to prove a point.  Are you still as sure it's still as easy to read
It's certainly not easier.  Anyhow, nobody posts bottom to top, except

Your presumption however assumes that it is that much harder to read?

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-21 Thread Imran Chaudhry
On 20 May 2014 22:41, Samuel Penn s...@glendale.org.uk wrote:

 On Tuesday 20 May 2014 13:27:50 Anton Piatek wrote:
  Gmail on mobile actively makes it more difficult to bottom post

 Really? Click the Respond inline button and it switches to
 inline quoting, and even adds a proper On X, Y wrote line
 to the start of the quoted text.

 You can then start adding text anywhere in the quoted mail.

 At least it does on my phone.

Thanks Samuel, my reasons were same as Anton but I've just responded to
this using your method.

Bear in mind that more of us use a mobile device more these days so
convenience sometimes trumps ettiqutte.



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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-21 Thread Anton Piatek
If I didn't want a footer then bottom posting would be easier in Gmail
(reply in line and it still sticks it at the top)

Maybe I should ditch a footer, but I've grown used to having one for the
last 20 years

Anton
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On 21 May 2014 19:03, Imran Chaudhry ichaud...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 20 May 2014 22:41, Samuel Penn s...@glendale.org.uk wrote:
 
  On Tuesday 20 May 2014 13:27:50 Anton Piatek wrote:
   Gmail on mobile actively makes it more difficult to bottom post
 
  Really? Click the Respond inline button and it switches to
  inline quoting, and even adds a proper On X, Y wrote line
  to the start of the quoted text.
 
  You can then start adding text anywhere in the quoted mail.
 
  At least it does on my phone.

 Thanks Samuel, my reasons were same as Anton but I've just responded to
 this using your method.

 Bear in mind that more of us use a mobile device more these days so
 convenience sometimes trumps ettiqutte.

 
 
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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Tony Wood

On 20/05/14 07:25, Keith Edmunds wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 07:03:31 +0100, t...@engineering.selfip.org said:


The etiquette was that one should reply
underneath, but haven't the top posters won?


The history of persuading others to change their behaviour to make life
easier for oneself is not riddled with success.

There's lots to dislike about how others post (being a grumpy old man,
my list is long), but the choice to read others' posts is the reader's
alone.



I nominate Keith's response as 'Posting of the Month'.

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(... who sometimes forgets to reset his mail client, top-posts and 
upsets everyone. Fortunately this similarly grumpy old man is not too 
bothered either way.)



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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Owain Clarke

I second that!

On 20/05/14 08:09, Tony Wood wrote:

On 20/05/14 07:25, Keith Edmunds wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 07:03:31 +0100, t...@engineering.selfip.org said:


The etiquette was that one should reply
underneath, but haven't the top posters won?


The history of persuading others to change their behaviour to make life
easier for oneself is not riddled with success.

There's lots to dislike about how others post (being a grumpy old man,
my list is long), but the choice to read others' posts is the reader's
alone.



I nominate Keith's response as 'Posting of the Month'.


I second that!

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Dr A. J. Trickett
On Tue, 20 May 2014 at 07:03:31AM +0100, Tim B wrote:
 Probably. 

Sadly when you ask most top-poster why they do it, very few can 
come up with a good or meaningfully reason to support their 
behaviour. It appears to have mostly won because:

Most email clients encourage it
Most people copy what others do without thinking
Most people take the path of least resistance

While I accept that there are a few cases in which it's okay to 
top post - I think the sheer volume of uneducated users has 
eventually prevailed.

Sadly almost all non-technical business email is top-posted and it 
is difficult to read, often incoherent and a great source of 
confusion in business.

I've given up trying to bottom post - except when emailing other 
technical users, as non-technical users appear to find it 
confusing to have a trimmed and edited email with the answers to 
their questions beneath the questions. Then again I was born 
grumpy - but that does not make me wrong...

 
 Tim B.
 
 
 Sent from Samsung Mobile
 
  Original message 
 From: Owain Clarke simb...@cooptel.net 
 Date:20/05/2014  06:54  (GMT+00:00) 
 To: Hampshire LUG Discussion List hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk 
 Subject: [Hampshire] Top posting 
 
 I don't post to this list very often, but I am noticing a struggle 
 between top-posters and bottom-posters, probably largely unnoticed to 
 the top-posters.  You even get posts in which answers are scattered 
 below and above.  I think you can't have both systems, and top posting 
 has become the norm.  The etiquette was that one should reply 
 underneath, but haven't the top posters won?
 
 Owain
 
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Adam Trickett
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No virus was found in this outgoing message as I didn't bother looking.
-- anon

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Lisi
On Tuesday 20 May 2014 11:44:18 Dr A. J. Trickett wrote:
 On Tue, 20 May 2014 at 07:03:31AM +0100, Tim B wrote:
  Probably. 

 Sadly when you ask most top-poster why they do it, very few can
 come up with a good or meaningfully reason to support their
 behaviour. It appears to have mostly won because:

 Most email clients encourage it
 Most people copy what others do without thinking
 Most people take the path of least resistance

 While I accept that there are a few cases in which it's okay to
 top post - I think the sheer volume of uneducated users has
 eventually prevailed.

 Sadly almost all non-technical business email is top-posted and it
 is difficult to read, often incoherent and a great source of
 confusion in business.

 I've given up trying to bottom post - except when emailing other
 technical users, as non-technical users appear to find it
 confusing to have a trimmed and edited email with the answers to
 their questions beneath the questions. Then again I was born
 grumpy - but that does not make me wrong...

I plough on interleaving.  I rarely get complaints.

I find top-posting so difficult to follow, that I rarely try.  I rarely bother 
with HTML either.  Reading is too difficult for me now, and remaining life 
too short.  If people want me to read their stuff, they must make it easier!  
And yes, I am a grumpy old .  Supply your own noun. ;-)

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Anton Piatek
Gmail on mobile actively makes it more difficult to bottom post

Anton
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No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message, however, a
significant number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
On 20 May 2014 13:21, Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote:

 On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:48:38 +0100
 Lisi hants...@googlemail.com wrote:

 Hello Lisi,

 I plough on interleaving.  I rarely get complaints.

 Same here.  Somebody even asked me what software I used that could do
 that.  I explained it was wetware (i.e. my brain) that did most of the
 work.  They didn't seem keen on that.   :-)

 remaining life too short.  If people want me to read their stuff, they
 must make it easier! And yes, I am a grumpy old .  Supply your own
 noun. ;-)

 Curmudgeon?   :-D

 I'm the same BTW.  With very few exceptions, any HTML email simply gets
 deleted.

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Re: [Hampshire] Top posting

2014-05-20 Thread Samuel Penn
On Tuesday 20 May 2014 13:27:50 Anton Piatek wrote:
 Gmail on mobile actively makes it more difficult to bottom post

Really? Click the Respond inline button and it switches to
inline quoting, and even adds a proper On X, Y wrote line
to the start of the quoted text.

You can then start adding text anywhere in the quoted mail.

At least it does on my phone.


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