Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
At 12:54 PM 02/08/2010, JRS wrote: Thane: Thanx for the link to the latest video card hierarchy.. :) Now we just need one for all the new processors for those of us who have not been paying attention lately.. . :) Try this one: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/21?vs=46 T
Re: [H] come on guys
At 04:12 PM 02/08/2010, Greg Sevart wrote: And ATI drivers frequently don't install properly, can cause bluescreens How many have you installed recently? I install about 15 a month, and except for some wonkyness with the Catalyst Control Center (mostly in XP), I've never had driver install issues. (Or at least no more issues with ATI than I have with NVidia, whose installer often announces that it can't find an NVidia card in the machine. T
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
At 10:51 PM 02/08/2010, Soren wrote: Sorry, not entirely true. There seem to be a common misunderstanding about the O/S allocation of RAM. E.g. WinXP can only allocate 3GB RAM for the O/S, which is often enterpreted as the whole system can only make use of 3GB RAM in total. Actually, XP can only use 3GB RAM for the O/S, any remaining RAM is kindly allocated to applications with a max of 32/64GB for 32/64bit versions of the non-server O/S. The rest So if I put 4GB in an XP 32 system, XP could potentially access 3GB for itself, but the extra 1GB (generally unreported) will be used by other applications? The 4GB story is coming from the first release of Vista not reporting the correct amount of installed RAM (e.g. 4GB or 8GB showed up as 3GB), which, quite understandable, lead to a great deal of confusion among guys like us. I'm pretty sure that Vista still reports 4+GB as 3.25GB or something similar. Both Vista32 and W732 run smoothly on +8GB RAM, same with XP. Do you have a link for this, or have some way of testing it, because everything you say here (at least if I'm reading it right) goes against what I've read elsewhere. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778%28VS.85%29.aspx T
[H] {Spam?} Re: come on guys
On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Scoobydo wrote: Bummer, my 5770 has run flawlessly since last year with every driver release to date. Bad card me thinks.. Yeah, the driver restarting is very much an indication of a bad card. Replace it and move on. Christopher Fisk -- Niska: Do you know the writings of Shan Yu? Mal: You starting a book club. --Episode #10, War Stories -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [H] {Spam?} Re: new system build suggestions or upgrade
At 09:41 AM 03/08/2010, Christopher Fisk wrote: On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Thane Sherrington wrote: Both Vista32 and W732 run smoothly on +8GB RAM, same with XP. Do you have a link for this, or have some way of testing it, because everything you say here (at least if I'm reading it right) goes against what I've read elsewhere. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778%28VS.85%29.aspx Oh they'll run with 8GB of memory installed... won't address anything more than 4GB but it won't cause a crash or anything. Well yeah, but what's the point? :) T
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
On Tue, Aug 03, 2010 at 09:53:48PM +0200, Soren wrote: Heh... nice writeup, Greg, but not completely updated, if I humbly may say so. If one look at the MS support sites about this question, one will get as many different and contradicting explanations on the subject, as there are support numbers (Qxyz). Beats the crap out of most techs that I know. However, I have built a large number of AV systems, and quite a number of those are with more than 4GB RAM, even up to 32GB. They all use the installed RAM without any problems, so I guess that at least *some* of MS's support sites are right, when some obviously aren't. There is no trickery because the processor is not limited to 32 bits of physical address in PAE mode. PAE mode adds a third level of page table lookup and changes the page table entries (PTEs) from 4 bytes wide to 8 bytes wide. This gives more room for bits of physical page address, or page frame number. In the first CPUs to implement PAE only four more bits were implemented, for a total of 24, or 36 bits of physical address. Thereby allowing 64 GB of ram to be directly addressed. No trickery is involved. It's the same address translation the MMU has been doing all along; the format of the lookup tables (page tables) is just changed. A single process cannot use more than 3GB though. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778%28VS.85%29.aspx -- Bryan G. Seitz
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
I'm still quite confident that you're mistaken. Client Microsoft operating systems and Server SKUs less than Enterprise simply will not use any more than 4GB. They're technically capable of leveraging PAE to extend memory usage, but they don't. They will use PAE to support DEP (and NUMA, apparently), but that's it. Windows 7 and fully patched versions of Vista will, however, _report_ all installed system memory, but it will not use one byte more than 4GB. I'd be happy to eat my words if you can point out a Microsoft-published document that definitively indicates that I'm incorrect, but I don't believe that is the case. This document also outlines memory limits of 32-bit Windows versions that is marked current as of May 2010: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2267427 Even if I am somehow mistaken and it is somehow possible to use PAE to use more than 4GB of memory under a MS Client OS edition, that still doesn't change the fact that each 32-bit process still has a maximum of a 4GB VAS. PAE and 4GT (/3GB switch) don't change that. The application must then use AWE (Address Windowing Extensions) to make use of any memory beyond that--and the list of apps that use the AWE API is very small. The only one that I know of offhand that does is Microsoft SQL Server. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Soren Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:54 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade Heh... nice writeup, Greg, but not completely updated, if I humbly may say so. If one look at the MS support sites about this question, one will get as many different and contradicting explanations on the subject, as there are support numbers (Qxyz). Beats the crap out of most techs that I know. However, I have built a large number of AV systems, and quite a number of those are with more than 4GB RAM, even up to 32GB. They all use the installed RAM without any problems, so I guess that at least *some* of MS's support sites are right, when some obviously aren't. There is no trickery because the processor is not limited to 32 bits of physical address in PAE mode. PAE mode adds a third level of page table lookup and changes the page table entries (PTEs) from 4 bytes wide to 8 bytes wide. This gives more room for bits of physical page address, or page frame number. In the first CPUs to implement PAE only four more bits were implemented, for a total of 24, or 36 bits of physical address. Thereby allowing 64 GB of ram to be directly addressed. No trickery is involved. It's the same address translation the MMU has been doing all along; the format of the lookup tables (page tables) is just changed. As you may see, this is not as much an O/S question, as it's a CPU question. Nowadays, no problems when using a high grade processor. This site pretty much nails it: geoffchappell.com/notes/toc.htm BTW, one of the finer benefits from using a large amount of RAM, is that the swap file can be allocated to RAM, which makes makes the system very responsive. This allocation usually takes place from topdown, depending on the method used (separate proggie, or just a .reg file). ./ Greg Sevart wrote: Ummnot quite. While it is technically possible to use more than 4GB of memory on a 32-bit OS with PAE, Microsoft client operating systems will NOT use it. Even the Standard SKUs of their Server operating systems will not use PAE--Enterprise or Datacenter is required. (This actually gets even more convoluted--these OS editions DO use PAE to implement NoExecute memory protection, but will not actually use more than 4GB). Furthermore, I think you're confusing user mode memory (apps) with kernel memory (O/S). By default, 32-bit versions of Windows XP with 4GB or more memory installed will split the 4GB into 2GB of user space and 2GB of kernel space. The kernel space is reserved for just that--the Windows kernel, kernel mode drivers, etc. You can use the /3GB switch (4GT) to move this 2/2 split into a 3/1 user/kernel split. Absolutely anything over 4GB is not used, and that's true for 32-bit versions of Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7. You may lose some of the 4GB address space for memory mapped devices, such as video cards and other devices. This is why you will frequently see a 32-bit system with 4GB of memory only report 2.8-3.8GB. There's no requirement that these devices be mapped to actual memory, just that they have memory address space--so 64-bit systems with chipsets that support it will remap actual installed RAM around the mapped devices. This means that on supported systems and 64-bit OS editions, you don't lose any memory to memory-mapped hardware devices. In short: If you're running 32-bit versions of Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows Server 2003/2008 Standard Edition, 4GB
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
Ah. Well, of course 32-bit only supports 4gb. --- Brian Sent from my iPhone On 2010-08-03, at 6:33 PM, Thane Sherrington th...@computerconnectionltd.com wrote: At 07:26 PM 03/08/2010, Brian Weeden wrote: Um, I just opened a bunch of programs on my Win 7 Ultimate 64bit system with 8GB of RAM and it is reporting 4612 MB in use and 3578 free. Greg is talking 32 bit. T --- Brian Weeden Technical Advisor Secure World Foundation http://www.secureworldfoundation.org +1 (514) 466-2756 Canada +1 (202) 683-8534 US On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Greg Sevart ad...@xfury.net wrote: I'm still quite confident that you're mistaken. Client Microsoft operating systems and Server SKUs less than Enterprise simply will not use any more than 4GB. They're technically capable of leveraging PAE to extend memory usage, but they don't. They will use PAE to support DEP (and NUMA, apparently), but that's it. Windows 7 and fully patched versions of Vista will, however, _report_ all installed system memory, but it will not use one byte more than 4GB. I'd be happy to eat my words if you can point out a Microsoft-published document that definitively indicates that I'm incorrect, but I don't believe that is the case. This document also outlines memory limits of 32-bit Windows versions that is marked current as of May 2010: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2267427 Even if I am somehow mistaken and it is somehow possible to use PAE to use more than 4GB of memory under a MS Client OS edition, that still doesn't change the fact that each 32-bit process still has a maximum of a 4GB VAS. PAE and 4GT (/3GB switch) don't change that. The application must then use AWE (Address Windowing Extensions) to make use of any memory beyond that--and the list of apps that use the AWE API is very small. The only one that I know of offhand that does is Microsoft SQL Server. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Soren Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:54 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade Heh... nice writeup, Greg, but not completely updated, if I humbly may say so. If one look at the MS support sites about this question, one will get as many different and contradicting explanations on the subject, as there are support numbers (Qxyz). Beats the crap out of most techs that I know. However, I have built a large number of AV systems, and quite a number of those are with more than 4GB RAM, even up to 32GB. They all use the installed RAM without any problems, so I guess that at least *some* of MS's support sites are right, when some obviously aren't. There is no trickery because the processor is not limited to 32 bits of physical address in PAE mode. PAE mode adds a third level of page table lookup and changes the page table entries (PTEs) from 4 bytes wide to 8 bytes wide. This gives more room for bits of physical page address, or page frame number. In the first CPUs to implement PAE only four more bits were implemented, for a total of 24, or 36 bits of physical address. Thereby allowing 64 GB of ram to be directly addressed. No trickery is involved. It's the same address translation the MMU has been doing all along; the format of the lookup tables (page tables) is just changed. As you may see, this is not as much an O/S question, as it's a CPU question. Nowadays, no problems when using a high grade processor. This site pretty much nails it: geoffchappell.com/notes/toc.htm BTW, one of the finer benefits from using a large amount of RAM, is that the swap file can be allocated to RAM, which makes makes the system very responsive. This allocation usually takes place from topdown, depending on the method used (separate proggie, or just a .reg file). ./ Greg Sevart wrote: Ummnot quite. While it is technically possible to use more than 4GB of memory on a 32-bit OS with PAE, Microsoft client operating systems will NOT use it. Even the Standard SKUs of their Server operating systems will not use PAE--Enterprise or Datacenter is required. (This actually gets even more convoluted--these OS editions DO use PAE to implement NoExecute memory protection, but will not actually use more than 4GB). Furthermore, I think you're confusing user mode memory (apps) with kernel memory (O/S). By default, 32-bit versions of Windows XP with 4GB or more memory installed will split the 4GB into 2GB of user space and 2GB of kernel space. The kernel space is reserved for just that--the Windows kernel, kernel mode drivers, etc. You can use the /3GB switch (4GT) to move this 2/2 split into a 3/1 user/kernel split.
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
Not to be overly simple, but can't you just open task manager and start opening a bunch of memory hungry apps and see if total utilized physical memory is more than 4GB? Seems like that would be pretty cut and dried :) I only have 4 GB in my top 2 boxes or I would test the theory... lopaka From: Greg Sevart ad...@xfury.net To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 2:42:59 PM Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade I'm still quite confident that you're mistaken. Client Microsoft operating systems and Server SKUs less than Enterprise simply will not use any more than 4GB. They're technically capable of leveraging PAE to extend memory usage, but they don't. They will use PAE to support DEP (and NUMA, apparently), but that's it. Windows 7 and fully patched versions of Vista will, however, _report_ all installed system memory, but it will not use one byte more than 4GB. I'd be happy to eat my words if you can point out a Microsoft-published document that definitively indicates that I'm incorrect, but I don't believe that is the case. This document also outlines memory limits of 32-bit Windows versions that is marked current as of May 2010: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2267427 Even if I am somehow mistaken and it is somehow possible to use PAE to use more than 4GB of memory under a MS Client OS edition, that still doesn't change the fact that each 32-bit process still has a maximum of a 4GB VAS. PAE and 4GT (/3GB switch) don't change that. The application must then use AWE (Address Windowing Extensions) to make use of any memory beyond that--and the list of apps that use the AWE API is very small. The only one that I know of offhand that does is Microsoft SQL Server. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Soren Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:54 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade Heh... nice writeup, Greg, but not completely updated, if I humbly may say so. If one look at the MS support sites about this question, one will get as many different and contradicting explanations on the subject, as there are support numbers (Qxyz). Beats the crap out of most techs that I know. However, I have built a large number of AV systems, and quite a number of those are with more than 4GB RAM, even up to 32GB. They all use the installed RAM without any problems, so I guess that at least *some* of MS's support sites are right, when some obviously aren't. There is no trickery because the processor is not limited to 32 bits of physical address in PAE mode. PAE mode adds a third level of page table lookup and changes the page table entries (PTEs) from 4 bytes wide to 8 bytes wide. This gives more room for bits of physical page address, or page frame number. In the first CPUs to implement PAE only four more bits were implemented, for a total of 24, or 36 bits of physical address. Thereby allowing 64 GB of ram to be directly addressed. No trickery is involved. It's the same address translation the MMU has been doing all along; the format of the lookup tables (page tables) is just changed. As you may see, this is not as much an O/S question, as it's a CPU question. Nowadays, no problems when using a high grade processor. This site pretty much nails it: geoffchappell.com/notes/toc.htm BTW, one of the finer benefits from using a large amount of RAM, is that the swap file can be allocated to RAM, which makes makes the system very responsive. This allocation usually takes place from topdown, depending on the method used (separate proggie, or just a .reg file). ./ Greg Sevart wrote: Ummnot quite. While it is technically possible to use more than 4GB of memory on a 32-bit OS with PAE, Microsoft client operating systems will NOT use it. Even the Standard SKUs of their Server operating systems will not use PAE--Enterprise or Datacenter is required. (This actually gets even more convoluted--these OS editions DO use PAE to implement NoExecute memory protection, but will not actually use more than 4GB). Furthermore, I think you're confusing user mode memory (apps) with kernel memory (O/S). By default, 32-bit versions of Windows XP with 4GB or more memory installed will split the 4GB into 2GB of user space and 2GB of kernel space. The kernel space is reserved for just that--the Windows kernel, kernel mode drivers, etc. You can use the /3GB switch (4GT) to move this 2/2 split into a 3/1 user/kernel split. Absolutely anything over 4GB is not used, and that's true for 32-bit versions of Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7. You may lose some of the 4GB address space for memory mapped devices, such as video cards and other devices. This is why you will frequently see a 32-bit system with 4GB of memory only report 2.8-3.8GB.
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
Sorry, I should have re-specified in my reply that we're discussing x86 versions only. The 4GB question is a little complex, since 36-bit addressing with PAE has been available in processors for some time. However, MS does not use PAE in 32-bit versions of their client operating systems to allow you to use more than 4GB; that's reserved for their higher end Server SKUs. Soren insists that you can use more than 4GB of memory in a 32-bit client MS operating system, and that's the current discussion. The x64 editions absolutely can use more than 4GB. The Ultimate Edition W7 SKU can use up to 192GB of memory. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Brian Weeden Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 5:44 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Cc: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade Ah. Well, of course 32-bit only supports 4gb. --- Brian Sent from my iPhone On 2010-08-03, at 6:33 PM, Thane Sherrington th...@computerconnectionltd.com wrote: At 07:26 PM 03/08/2010, Brian Weeden wrote: Um, I just opened a bunch of programs on my Win 7 Ultimate 64bit system with 8GB of RAM and it is reporting 4612 MB in use and 3578 free. Greg is talking 32 bit. T
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
At 07:56 PM 03/08/2010, Robert Martin Jr. wrote: Not to be overly simple, but can't you just open task manager and start opening a bunch of memory hungry apps and see if total utilized physical memory is more than 4GB? Seems like that would be pretty cut and dried :) I only have 4 GB in my top 2 boxes or I would test the theory... I would assume you'd also have to set the swap file to 0. T
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
lets hope this does not become necessary in the future :-) At 04:00 PM 8/3/2010, Greg Sevart Poked the stick with: The x64 editions absolutely can use more than 4GB. The Ultimate Edition W7 SKU can use up to 192GB of memory. Greg -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Life is unsure, always eat your dessert first.
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
I know I'm mistaking when it comes to XP Home, but Pro/CE versions are different creatures, as you already know. As Mr. Phiber correctly pointed out, no process can use more than 3GB RAM. (Hence the urban legend about XP/Vista not supporting more than 3GB RAM, which btw is almost true with the Home edition, which we all, of course, try to avoid :) 3GB/process is plenty when using an AV system, as separate processes often are executed at the same time, using different processors, sometimes by direct allocation. What's NUMA? (never heard of it, or I don't remember - I'll look it up) Most apps for professional audio recording make use of the AWE API. I'm not sure about professional image rendering progs, but the two systems I've built for this purpose make plenty use of the 32GB installed. And this happens with a default installation of the OS (XP CE). To my knowledge, the PAE boot switch is only used if one wants to allocate more than 3GB RAM to the OS. Thanks for the link, but I don't trust the MS sites about RAM and OS's anymore... Soren Greg Sevart wrote: I'm still quite confident that you're mistaken. Client Microsoft operating systems and Server SKUs less than Enterprise simply will not use any more than 4GB. They're technically capable of leveraging PAE to extend memory usage, but they don't. They will use PAE to support DEP (and NUMA, apparently), but that's it. Windows 7 and fully patched versions of Vista will, however, _report_ all installed system memory, but it will not use one byte more than 4GB. I'd be happy to eat my words if you can point out a Microsoft-published document that definitively indicates that I'm incorrect, but I don't believe that is the case. This document also outlines memory limits of 32-bit Windows versions that is marked current as of May 2010: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2267427 Even if I am somehow mistaken and it is somehow possible to use PAE to use more than 4GB of memory under a MS Client OS edition, that still doesn't change the fact that each 32-bit process still has a maximum of a 4GB VAS. PAE and 4GT (/3GB switch) don't change that. The application must then use AWE (Address Windowing Extensions) to make use of any memory beyond that--and the list of apps that use the AWE API is very small. The only one that I know of offhand that does is Microsoft SQL Server. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Soren Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:54 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade Heh... nice writeup, Greg, but not completely updated, if I humbly may say so. If one look at the MS support sites about this question, one will get as many different and contradicting explanations on the subject, as there are support numbers (Qxyz). Beats the crap out of most techs that I know. However, I have built a large number of AV systems, and quite a number of those are with more than 4GB RAM, even up to 32GB. They all use the installed RAM without any problems, so I guess that at least *some* of MS's support sites are right, when some obviously aren't. There is no trickery because the processor is not limited to 32 bits of physical address in PAE mode. PAE mode adds a third level of page table lookup and changes the page table entries (PTEs) from 4 bytes wide to 8 bytes wide. This gives more room for bits of physical page address, or page frame number. In the first CPUs to implement PAE only four more bits were implemented, for a total of 24, or 36 bits of physical address. Thereby allowing 64 GB of ram to be directly addressed. No trickery is involved. It's the same address translation the MMU has been doing all along; the format of the lookup tables (page tables) is just changed. As you may see, this is not as much an O/S question, as it's a CPU question. Nowadays, no problems when using a high grade processor. This site pretty much nails it: geoffchappell.com/notes/toc.htm BTW, one of the finer benefits from using a large amount of RAM, is that the swap file can be allocated to RAM, which makes makes the system very responsive. This allocation usually takes place from topdown, depending on the method used (separate proggie, or just a .reg file). ./ Greg Sevart wrote: Ummnot quite. While it is technically possible to use more than 4GB of memory on a 32-bit OS with PAE, Microsoft client operating systems will NOT use it. Even the Standard SKUs of their Server operating systems will not use PAE--Enterprise or Datacenter is required. (This actually gets even more convoluted--these OS editions DO use PAE to implement NoExecute memory protection, but will not actually use more than 4GB). Furthermore, I think you're confusing user mode memory (apps) with kernel memory (O/S). By default, 32-bit versions of Windows XP with 4GB or more memory installed will split the 4GB into 2GB of
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
The article you linked actually proves my point. While the kernels of the MS client OS editions are technically capable of using PAE and, therefore, memory above 4GB, that memory is ignored or otherwise intentionally and actively disabled. From http://geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/license/memory.htm: The 32-bit editions of Windows Vista all contain code for using physical memory above 4GB. Microsoft just doesn't license you to use that code., then he shows screenshots of a Vista Ultimate 32-bit system with 8GB of memory installed. However, note this line that follows after the screenshots: ...to simulate having new license data from Microsoft, I have modified the kernel just enough so that it ignores the two license values that set memory limits, and I have started Windows in Test Mode so that it tolerates a kernel that no longer has Microsoft's digital signature. Granted, that's Vista, but the author then talks about changes made to the HAL in Windows XP beginning with SP2 (and continued in SP3) that actually makes memory above the 4GB address space unusable. From the KB article that the author references as admission of the change: Any system RAM that is more than the 4 GB barrier would be made unaddressable by Windows and be unusable in the system. I did learn something here: apparently, XP RTM and XP SP1, while only licensed for 4GB, did not actively prevent using memory above the 4GB address space when PAE was enabled. It's likely this is simply because 4GB was extremely uncommon during the timeframe that RTM/SP1 were considered current patch levels. XP Professional and Corporate Edition (I assume that by CE you mean Corporate, not XP Embedded) are no different than Home in this regard. Basically, the whole page is a long winded explanation stating that Windows is technically capable of using more than 4GB on a 32-bit system by using PAE, but Microsoft actively disables this functionality in client operating systems beginning with XP SP2. I didn't realize that it wasn't enforced prior to SP2, but it's still essentially the argument I made from the beginning. NUMA is Non Uniform Memory Access. The idea here is that in modern multi-socket systems that feature processors with integrated memory controllers, not all of the address space is created equal. Processor A has its own local memory, as does Processor B. While the memory attached to processor B is available to threads executing on processor A, it must go through processor B to get to it, which introduces extra latency. Operating systems try to reduce this performance hit by trying to run threads on the processor that has the thread's memory local to it. Apparently, Microsoft chose to implement this NUMA-awareness in the PAE version of their kernels. Greg -Original Message- From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware- boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of Soren Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 6:24 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade I know I'm mistaking when it comes to XP Home, but Pro/CE versions are different creatures, as you already know. As Mr. Phiber correctly pointed out, no process can use more than 3GB RAM. (Hence the urban legend about XP/Vista not supporting more than 3GB RAM, which btw is almost true with the Home edition, which we all, of course, try to avoid :) 3GB/process is plenty when using an AV system, as separate processes often are executed at the same time, using different processors, sometimes by direct allocation. What's NUMA? (never heard of it, or I don't remember - I'll look it up) Most apps for professional audio recording make use of the AWE API. I'm not sure about professional image rendering progs, but the two systems I've built for this purpose make plenty use of the 32GB installed. And this happens with a default installation of the OS (XP CE). To my knowledge, the PAE boot switch is only used if one wants to allocate more than 3GB RAM to the OS. Thanks for the link, but I don't trust the MS sites about RAM and OS's anymore... Soren
Re: [H] new system build suggestions or upgrade
Can tell me how to allocate the swap file to RAM? T Just go to System / Advanced Tab / Performance settings /Advanced/virtual Memory change Then just make sure all drives are set to no paging file. The OS won't use a pagefile which means it must use RAM. Be advised that a very few programs won't accept this. Using a RAM drive for a swap file doesn't work well... some programs see it for what it is, and won't accept it. More importantly it wastes a huge amount of RAM that could be better put to use just about anywhere else. I'm assuming you mean I can put 8GB in a 32bit system and use 4GB of that as a swap file? if that is what you have in mind you are much better off getting a small SSD and putting your swap file there. MS writes that this is the ideal place to put a swap file. m
