Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 22:53, Johan Tibell johan.tib...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, To ease my maintenance burden, I've moved the network package repo to: http://github.com/haskell/network Patches are accepted either in the git mbox format, as normal (diff) patch files, or as GitHub pull requests. P.S. If you want to get added to the haskell GitHub organization, just drop me an email. Ah, the use of github is spreading :-) If I, as the developer of the FOO Haskell package, want to move to use github, can I get a source repo under that organisation as well? I'm asking since I am considering taking some of my packages from patch-tag to github (it's really github I want, it's unfortunate that it also means I'll have to leave darcs), it would then be nice to have those repos as a part of the haskell organisation. /M -- Magnus Therning (OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
On 28 October 2010 03:41, Victor Oliveira rhapso...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cafe, I really liked the new colors of haskell theme, but... Is really red a good color for links? At least for me, red links looks like broken or already visited ones. And the worst is hackage docs. It is really eye tiring to read. It's just a thought. Maybe it just with me. What about you? This was my initial impression. Red means broken. Links are blue. I thought maybe no one would be bothered by it, but I see one person at least. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: On 28 October 2010 03:41, Victor Oliveira rhapso...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cafe, I really liked the new colors of haskell theme, but... Is really red a good color for links? At least for me, red links looks like broken or already visited ones. And the worst is hackage docs. It is really eye tiring to read. It's just a thought. Maybe it just with me. What about you? This was my initial impression. Red means broken. Links are blue. I thought maybe no one would be bothered by it, but I see one person at least. I'm not incredibly bothered by it, but I did find it a bit strange. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Does it deserve to be a hackage package?
On 27.10.2010 13:16, Andy Stewart wrote: Christopher Donechrisd...@googlemail.com writes: On 27 October 2010 10:13, Dmitry V'yalakam...@gmail.com wrote: While ago I had a question about opening the url in the default browser from haskell program. I didn't get any immediate answers so I wrote my own solution. On Linux it uses xdg-open and on Windows - ShellExecute Api. Does it deserve to be a hackage package? If it's not in an existing small library, yes. If I have to have a dependency on gtk2hs just to do that, I'd rather have a small library. Does it work on OS X? If not, I'm sure someone would submit a patch for that. This can also be used for opening the file browser and such, right? It's APIs in GIO library (a sub-library in gtk2hs), you just need depend on GIO don't need depend any other library. Dmitry, it's unnecessary since GIO can do better with same experience both Windows and Linux, don't need any external program help. Infact, GIO not just call default browser for url, it can call any program to open any format. Ok then. I'll wait for it. I hope binary package for Windows would be provided too. Currently I can't figure out how build gtk2hs there. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] On being called a troll
Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com writes: I have posted to this list for over 3 years now and until lately it was an enlightening experience. The responses to my questions have usually been helpful and friendly. Right - in most cases, the Haskell community is fanatically non-hostile. At least compared to other mailing lists or newsgroups I've subscribed to. I'm in favor of keeping personal accusations off of this list. Calling someone a troll on a public list isn't really helpful to the conversation. +1 I think the trollishness refers to somebody with three years experience with Haskell and this list, insisting that there should be a centralized leadership, or that somebody ought to commission some particular functionality. This shows a surprising lack of understanding of how an open-source community works, which is easyly interpreted as trolling (i.e. posting just to provoke a response). In extreme cases, I think some folks have the ability to moderate the list - so it isn't like we need to resort to public personal attacks to keep the discussion productive. I am 42 now and am surprised how much this still hurts, after all I survived the schoolyard bullies and who would have thought that these times would ever come again? One difference is that online memory is very short. When you ask another question, this thread will be forgotten, and focus will be back on subject, not person. I urge you, my fellow haskellers, to show some restraint when we are dealing with one another on this list. And to think twice before you launch a personal attack. I replied in this thread - I hope you didn't find my replies offensive, but if I were, I apologize. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Current thinking on CompositionAsDot issue in haskell prime?
Hi haskellers. Reading through the Haskell Prime suggestions, one that caught my eye is the CompositionAsDot issue. I'm especially thinking of the Pro issue: * Paves the way for using . as the selection operator in improved record or module systems I think I recognize this issue from common lisp. Basically the code becomes verbose because accessor functions usually need to redundantly encode the name of the module or struct in its name. The alternative is to require users to import qualified, and that doesn't deal with the occasional intra-module collision. This is a typical large-software-system issue and it annoys me a little that Haskell seems to have inherited the problems from common lisp. I worry that in large systems, a very conservative coding standard is needed with quite verbose naming conventions as that's the only safe way to avoid these conflicts in a large system while allowing refactoring code etc. What is the current thinking on this issue? Thanks, Alexander ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] concurrency vs. I/O in GHC
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 23:09, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: On 27/10/2010 05:00 PM, John Lato wrote: I am somewhat surprised that all capabilities must be ready for GC; I thought with the parallel GC that wouldn't be necessary. But I don't know much about GC implementations so I try not to let their behavior surprise me too much. GHC has a _parallel_ GC implementation, meaning that the GC event runs in parallel on several cores. But it does not (yet) have _concurrent_ GC, meaning that a GC event can happen at the same time as Haskell threads are running. (Basically, which Haskell code running, the references between objects could change while the GC engine is trying to analyse them, which would be Bad.) I understand that the developers are actively working on fixing this, since it can sometimes have a significant effect on the performance of multicore programs... I thought that young generations could be GC'ed while other threads were running, while collecting the old generation required synchronizing all threads. This seems to be what is shown on http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/new-gc-preview as well. Erik ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Current thinking on CompositionAsDot issue in haskell prime?
On 28 October 2010 10:15, Alexander Kjeldaas alexander.kjeld...@gmail.com wrote: I think I recognize this issue from common lisp. Basically the code becomes verbose because accessor functions usually need to redundantly encode the name of the module or struct in its name. The alternative is to require users to import qualified, and that doesn't deal with the occasional intra-module collision. This is a typical large-software-system issue and it annoys me a little that Haskell seems to have inherited the problems from common lisp. I worry that in large systems, a very conservative coding standard is needed with quite verbose naming conventions as that's the only safe way to avoid these conflicts in a large system while allowing refactoring code etc. As someone with a nontrivial project (5k~ LoC) I recently I experienced first hand this issue. I first went with records with whatever field names I wanted, and then imported qualified. But then I need a module for every single record type in case (and they did) of clashes. I have 40~ record types in this project, so that's just no feasible. I did it anyway. I really don't like having to qualify everything though. I end up with a huge import list of as X, as Y, as Z, etc. and this is difficult to follow. And I don't like reading qualified code so much. If I import with more descriptive names, e.g. `as Submission', `as SubmissionAuthor', etc. it becomes more verbose than merely prefixing the accessor functions. I tried out record systems like Has, because that system has accessors which only care if a record /has/ a certain field, and new ones can be constructed arbitrarily. But then I miss out of Haddock's documentation, not to mention deriving goodies and pattern matching. So I stuck with the Common Lisp approach. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
From: Magnus Therning mag...@therning.org On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 22:53, Johan Tibell johan.tib...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, To ease my maintenance burden, I've moved the network package repo to: Â Â http://github.com/haskell/network Patches are accepted either in the git mbox format, as normal (diff) patch files, or as GitHub pull requests. P.S. If you want to get added to the haskell GitHub organization, just drop me an email. Ah, the use of github is spreading :-) If I, as the developer of the FOO Haskell package, want to move to use github, can I get a source repo under that organisation as well? I'm asking since I am considering taking some of my packages from patch-tag to github (it's really github I want, it's unfortunate that it also means I'll have to leave darcs), it would then be nice to have those repos as a part of the haskell organisation. Similarly, what's the remit of the Haskell organization on github? Is the intention to be an umbrella for any haskell package, or more restricted? I have the same question as Magnus (although in my case I took over something on github; if I could move to darcs and preserve history I would). John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Does it deserve to be a hackage package?
Dmitry V'yal akam...@gmail.com writes: On 27.10.2010 13:16, Andy Stewart wrote: Christopher Donechrisd...@googlemail.com writes: On 27 October 2010 10:13, Dmitry V'yalakam...@gmail.com wrote: While ago I had a question about opening the url in the default browser from haskell program. I didn't get any immediate answers so I wrote my own solution. On Linux it uses xdg-open and on Windows - ShellExecute Api. Does it deserve to be a hackage package? If it's not in an existing small library, yes. If I have to have a dependency on gtk2hs just to do that, I'd rather have a small library. Does it work on OS X? If not, I'm sure someone would submit a patch for that. This can also be used for opening the file browser and such, right? It's APIs in GIO library (a sub-library in gtk2hs), you just need depend on GIO don't need depend any other library. Dmitry, it's unnecessary since GIO can do better with same experience both Windows and Linux, don't need any external program help. Infact, GIO not just call default browser for url, it can call any program to open any format. Ok then. I'll wait for it. I hope binary package for Windows would be provided too. Currently I can't figure out how build gtk2hs there. I guess we won't provide binary package for Windows, but i can tell you how to build gtk2hs on Windows: First: see http://code.haskell.org/gtk2hs/INSTALL short summary: http://www.gtk.org/download-windows.html and download one of the All-in-one bundles. Note that you need to have ~/.cabal/bin on your PATH since otherwise building the libraries will fail, saying that e.g. gtk2hsC2hs cannot be found. Then do cabal install gtk2hs-buildtools gtk will install gtk2hs. I suggest you pull gtk2hs darcs code first to test the GIO code i send you before. When build gtk2hs darcs, you need replace cabal install gtk2hs-buildtools gtk with below commands: darcs get --lazy http://code.haskell.org/gtk2hs/ cd ./gtk2hs sudo chmod +x ./bootstrap.sh ./bootstrap.sh Cheers, -- Andy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Map constructor in a DSL
Thank you for your rich responses. Indeed I think I miss some thinks in my DSL, that would make things easier to deal with lists and first class functions. I don't really know what for now. Perhaps a List Constructor? Or a constructor on functions like yours Ryan? EAp :: Exp ref (a - b) - Exp ref a - Exp ref b It's from which DSL? It is accessible on the net? Chris suggested me that I can only define the Foldr constructor and deduce Map from it. But maybe I have to add a List constructor for that. But in the suggestions from Ryan and Brandon I don't understand why I should add an extra type parameter and what it is! Steffen: Wow nice. I'll integrate that ;) I'm also looking at the Atom's DSL to get inspiration. Something I don't understand in it is that it has two languages, on typed: data E a where VRef:: V a - E a Const :: a - E a Cast:: (NumE a, NumE b) = E a - E b Add :: NumE a = E a - E a - E a etc. And, along with it, an untyped counterpart: -- | An untyped term. data UE = UVRef UV | UConst Const | UCast Type UE | UAdd UE UE etc. What that for? What's the use of having beautiful GADT if you have to maintain an untyped ADT aside?? Corentin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Current thinking on CompositionAsDot issue in haskell prime?
On 28/10/2010 10:15, Alexander Kjeldaas wrote: Hi haskellers. Reading through the Haskell Prime suggestions, one that caught my eye is the CompositionAsDot issue. I'm especially thinking of the Pro issue: * Paves the way for using . as the selection operator in improved record or module systems I think I recognize this issue from common lisp. Basically the code becomes verbose because accessor functions usually need to redundantly encode the name of the module or struct in its name. The alternative is to require users to import qualified, and that doesn't deal with the occasional intra-module collision. This is a typical large-software-system issue and it annoys me a little that Haskell seems to have inherited the problems from common lisp. I worry that in large systems, a very conservative coding standard is needed with quite verbose naming conventions as that's the only safe way to avoid these conflicts in a large system while allowing refactoring code etc. What is the current thinking on this issue? Thanks, Alexander TypeDirectedNameResolution would solve the problem you describe, and make Haskell a lot more suitable for real-world development (which is usually large-software-system, or at least must be capable of scaling to one). ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
Maybe we can keep at least the docs without red links. It's very eye tiring to read. One option is to keep the links black with :hover red. []s Victor On Oct 28, 2010, at 5:52 AM, Michael Snoyman wrote: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: On 28 October 2010 03:41, Victor Oliveira rhapso...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cafe, I really liked the new colors of haskell theme, but... Is really red a good color for links? At least for me, red links looks like broken or already visited ones. And the worst is hackage docs. It is really eye tiring to read. It's just a thought. Maybe it just with me. What about you? This was my initial impression. Red means broken. Links are blue. I thought maybe no one would be bothered by it, but I see one person at least. I'm not incredibly bothered by it, but I did find it a bit strange. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] ANN: language-java-0.1.0
Hi café, I found myself in need of a source manipulation suite for Java code. A hackage search turned up nothing, so I wrote one: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-java I'm sure there are a number of bugs waiting to be discovered, my own testing hasn't been overly extensive. I'm setting up a trac, will follow up with its location once it's up. Known short-coming: Annotations are not yet supported. Cheers, /Niklas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: language-java-0.1.0
I'm sure there are a number of bugs waiting to be discovered, my own testing hasn't been overly extensive. I'm setting up a trac, will follow up with its location once it's up. http://trac.haskell.org/language-java Cheers, /Niklas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
if I could move to darcs and preserve history I would. Search for git fastexport and darcs-fastconvert. Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
Maybe we can keep at least the docs without red links. Pick the Classic style in the style menu. It will remember your choice. Sebastian ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] [ANNAUNCE] ghcjs-0.1.0 Haskell to Javascript compiler
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Martijn Schrage mart...@oblomov.com wrote:
On 27-10-10 16:20, Victor Nazarov wrote:
Very cool. I'll incorporate your changes, If you don't mind.
Not at all.
However, I have some minor remarks.
You shouldn't override hscall function, or you may break partial
application implementation. And you shouldn't overide properties of
evalFn, I wonder that this doesn't break your example...
Ah, yes, that was the guessing part. I just hacked around a bit and thought
I'd leave the correct definition to someone who actually knows what they're
doing :-)
var evalFn = new $hs.Func(1);
evalFn.evaluate(arg) = function(arg) {
var argStr = $hs.fromHaskellString(arg);
var res = eval(argStr);
return $hs.toHaskellString(arg); // This function should be added to
$hs object/namespace
}
This works without any problems (after changing the second line to:
evalFn.evaluate = function(arg) {)
I think we should do something like this:
data JsObject = ... -- Should be made abstract
and
eval :: String - [JsObject] - JS JsObject
So we can pass around javascript-objects in haskell program and bind
them back into javascript calls.
And use some conversion functions in case when we need data:
jsObjectToString :: JsObject - JS String
jsObjectToInt :: JsObject - JS Int
Yes, that seems logical. The JsObjects can then be treated similar to
IORefs.
What are your plans with the package? In my opinion, this work could be
extremely useful for building Ajax apps, and it doesn't seem to be that far
from being usable already.
Some interesting near-future work I can think of:
- Make it work on all major browsers
This shouldn't be a problem...
- A faster and more robust module loader (now it loses a lot of time on 404
errors, trying to access modules in the wrong package dir)
I agree that this is important. I'll look into it...
- Basic type checking for the top-level Haskell functions
I think this should be implemented via FFI export implementation.
- Marshaling between Haskell and JavaScript values
Again It's mostly implementation of Haskell FFI
- JQuery support
- Nice ways to build JavaScript (and JQuery) expressions in Haskell
Dmitry Golubovski had a code generator from WebIDL wich he used to
support HTML5 DOM in YHC.
- Support more libraries and packages (Parsec would be interesting)
I think Parsec should work right now out of the box. But I don't have
time to investigate it...
I can find some spare time to work on this. I'm sure there will be others as
well.
I want to make code generator more smart and generate more optimized
code. To archive this I need to rewrite it in Monad or
ApplicativeFunctor style. I need Reader monad there to pass some
environment.
I think ghc-packages support is rather trivial to add. So module
loader will always know the one true location of module.
I want to implement continuation passing style calling convention for
Haskell-values as an alternative to two existing ones: plain and
trampoline. This will even allow multithreading emulation (with
setTimer as a scheduling mechanism...)
And last, I want to dig into FFI implementation. I think GHC doesn't
allow extensible FFI. So you won't be able to write javascript
calling convention in Haskell source file. But I think we can overcome
this using ccall for example...
I don't know what tasks are of most priority. I do what I feel like
doing :) I'll be very interested to see what other people can do with
all this. And I think that we should switch to application driven
development some time with something like Yampa-based game running in
web-browser...
--
Victor Nazarov
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[Haskell-cafe] Re: Map constructor in a DSL
I think you would love to have a look at AwesomePrelude[1] or a fork of AwesomePrelude using associated types[2] Some more background information by Tom Lokhorst [3][4]. [1] http://github.com/tomlokhorst/AwesomePrelude [2] http://github.com/urso/AwesomePrelude [3] http://tom.lokhorst.eu/2009/09/deeply-embedded-dsls [4] http://tom.lokhorst.eu/2010/02/awesomeprelude-presentation-video On 28 Okt., 12:09, Dupont Corentin corentin.dup...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for your rich responses. Indeed I think I miss some thinks in my DSL, that would make things easier to deal with lists and first class functions. I don't really know what for now. Perhaps a List Constructor? Or a constructor on functions like yours Ryan? EAp :: Exp ref (a - b) - Exp ref a - Exp ref b It's from which DSL? It is accessible on the net? Chris suggested me that I can only define the Foldr constructor and deduce Map from it. But maybe I have to add a List constructor for that. But in the suggestions from Ryan and Brandon I don't understand why I should add an extra type parameter and what it is! Steffen: Wow nice. I'll integrate that ;) I'm also looking at the Atom's DSL to get inspiration. Something I don't understand in it is that it has two languages, on typed: data E a where VRef :: V a - E a Const :: a - E a Cast :: (NumE a, NumE b) = E a - E b Add :: NumE a = E a - E a - E a etc. And, along with it, an untyped counterpart: -- | An untyped term. data UE = UVRef UV | UConst Const | UCast Type UE | UAdd UE UE etc. What that for? What's the use of having beautiful GADT if you have to maintain an untyped ADT aside?? Corentin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list haskell-c...@haskell.orghttp://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Map constructor in a DSL
This is really cool. The blog post [3] finally explained to me why I had so much difficulties implementing the Equal constructor ;) I shared this in a previous thread: http://osdir.com/ml/haskell-cafe@haskell.org/2010-06/msg00369.html Maybe latter I'll shift to a class type based DSL. They seem more generic than data type based. Corentin On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:02 PM, steffen steffen.sier...@googlemail.comwrote: I think you would love to have a look at AwesomePrelude[1] or a fork of AwesomePrelude using associated types[2] Some more background information by Tom Lokhorst [3][4]. [1] http://github.com/tomlokhorst/AwesomePrelude [2] http://github.com/urso/AwesomePrelude [3] http://tom.lokhorst.eu/2009/09/deeply-embedded-dsls [4] http://tom.lokhorst.eu/2010/02/awesomeprelude-presentation-video On 28 Okt., 12:09, Dupont Corentin corentin.dup...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for your rich responses. Indeed I think I miss some thinks in my DSL, that would make things easier to deal with lists and first class functions. I don't really know what for now. Perhaps a List Constructor? Or a constructor on functions like yours Ryan? EAp :: Exp ref (a - b) - Exp ref a - Exp ref b It's from which DSL? It is accessible on the net? Chris suggested me that I can only define the Foldr constructor and deduce Map from it. But maybe I have to add a List constructor for that. But in the suggestions from Ryan and Brandon I don't understand why I should add an extra type parameter and what it is! Steffen: Wow nice. I'll integrate that ;) I'm also looking at the Atom's DSL to get inspiration. Something I don't understand in it is that it has two languages, on typed: data E a where VRef:: V a - E a Const :: a - E a Cast:: (NumE a, NumE b) = E a - E b Add :: NumE a = E a - E a - E a etc. And, along with it, an untyped counterpart: -- | An untyped term. data UE = UVRef UV | UConst Const | UCast Type UE | UAdd UE UE etc. What that for? What's the use of having beautiful GADT if you have to maintain an untyped ADT aside?? Corentin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list haskell-c...@haskell.orghttp:// www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] cabal mystery (#562?)
Hi I've just installed cabal-install (just as a user: I am nowhere near root) on our unix server at work. That went fine. Clearly, the sensible thing to do next is get hold of an up-to-date package list. So, I tried co...@cafe:~$ cabal update Downloading the latest package list from hackage.haskell.org cabal: Codec.Compression.Zlib: premature end of compressed stream Here's the verbose version. co...@cafe:~$ cabal -v3 update Downloading the latest package list from hackage.haskell.org Sending: GET http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/00-index.tar.gz HTTP/1.1 User-Agent: cabal-install/0.8.2 Host: hackage.haskell.org proxy uri host: www-cache.strath.ac.uk, port: :8080 Creating new connection to www-cache.strath.ac.uk:8080 Received: HTTP/1.0 200 OK Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:59:17 GMT Server: Apache/2.2.9 (Debian) mod_python/3.3.1 Python/2.5.2 Last-Modified: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:38:17 GMT ETag: 1888003-20bb4e-493ac9dbe6040 Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 2145102 Content-Type: application/x-tar Content-Encoding: x-gzip X-Cache: MISS from rouble-1.cc.strath.ac.uk X-Cache-Lookup: MISS from rouble-1.cc.strath.ac.uk:8080 Via: 1.1 rouble-1.cc.strath.ac.uk:8080 (squid/2.7.STABLE7) Connection: close Downloaded to /home/s3/conor/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/00-index.tar.gz cabal: Codec.Compression.Zlib: premature end of compressed stream So I poked about a bit, and I see it's a known issue. As a user, I'm wondering what to do. Just now, wget http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/00-index.tar.gz is chugging away quite nicely. Anyhow, is there (a) something I can do to avoid this problem? I couldn't quite grasp what to do from the TRAC (b) some way to persuade cabal to use the file I'm currently downloading? Any tips to keep the gremlins at bay gratefully appreciated. Thanks Conor ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Test command line programs
Thanks for your responses. Of course I already test every pure parts of my program easily. For now, user input is treated in 2 different ways: - direct IO with hgetLine and like functions (blocking) - the same but I directly push the strings on a TChan for another thread to treat them (not blocking). The second is easy to test, since all I have to do is to insert test strings on the TChan to simulate user's input. Maybe I can do everything this way. But for example I had a bug of two threads inter-blocked on the handle. These tests were not able to show it, since the test takes place not on the handle itself but a little after. Maybe mock handle can help. Corentin On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Dupont Corentin corentin.dup...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again café, I have a command line program that takes input from various handles (actually network sockets) like this: s - hGetLine h etc. I'd like to unit test this. How can I do? I'd like to inject data on the handle so that all the input chain is tested. I haven't tested it yet, but this mock handle will eventually work in GHC 7: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/attachment/ticket/4144/ByteStringHandle.hs At least, the bug report about how it didn't work has now been closed :-) I don't remember which operations worked and which didn't - getChar would work, but getContents would fail. The others have great advice, that you should try to isolate the logic of your code from IO for precisely this reason - so it is easily testable. Antoine ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Map constructor in a DSL
2010-10-28 12:09, Dupont Corentin skrev: I'm also looking at the Atom's DSL to get inspiration. Something I don't understand in it is that it has two languages, on typed: data E a where VRef :: V a - E a Const:: a - E a Cast :: (NumE a, NumE b) = E a - E b Add :: NumE a = E a - E a - E a etc. And, along with it, an untyped counterpart: -- | An untyped term. data UE = UVRef UV | UConst Const | UCast Type UE | UAddUE UE etc. What that for? What's the use of having beautiful GADT if you have to maintain an untyped ADT aside?? The general reason for this (I can't speak for Atom specifically) is that the typed representation can be quite hard to work with when you want to transform the expressions. But you can still often limit the use of the untyped representation to the last stages in the backend, which means that you can enjoy the typed representation in the initial stages. In the development version of Feldspar, we use a typed representation combined with type-safe casting using Data.Typeable. Although not ideal, this seems to be better than having two different representations. / Emil ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] cabal mystery (#562?)
On Thursday 28 October 2010 15:08:09, Conor McBride wrote: So I poked about a bit, and I see it's a known issue. As a user, I'm wondering what to do. Try with HTTP-4000.0.9 instead of 4000.0.7? Just now, wget http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/00-index.tar.gz is chugging away quite nicely. Anyhow, is there (a) something I can do to avoid this problem? I couldn't quite grasp what to do from the TRAC (b) some way to persuade cabal to use the file I'm currently downloading? Any tips to keep the gremlins at bay gratefully appreciated. Don't feed after midnight, don't get them wet, I think were the tips. Thanks Conor ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Current thinking on CompositionAsDot issue in haskell prime?
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:12 AM, John Smith volderm...@hotmail.com wrote: On 28/10/2010 10:15, Alexander Kjeldaas wrote: Hi haskellers. Reading through the Haskell Prime suggestions, one that caught my eye is the CompositionAsDot issue. I'm especially thinking of the Pro issue: * Paves the way for using . as the selection operator in improved record or module systems Here's the wiki page: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/CompositionAsDot Personally I think function composition is what Haskell is all about and it is absolutely essential that the syntax for it be lightweight. If we think using . as qualification as well as composition is confusing, I'm much more inclined to say using it as qualification was a mistake. The comment on the wiki page about $ being more common in reality is not even close to true for my own code, and I don't think I'm unusual in that regard. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Red links in the new haskell theme
To be fair to the Haddock designer, red links are common these days. Here's two examples (among many): http://www.bbc.co.uk/ http://www.slate.com/ In the second case the site uses blue, black *and* red links to distinguish different types of content. They are all in bold and underline when hovered over so are not hard to distinguish from ordinary text. Kevin. On Oct 28, 9:52 am, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: On 28 October 2010 03:41, Victor Oliveira rhapso...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cafe, I really liked the new colors of haskell theme, but... Is really red a good color for links? At least for me, red links looks like broken or already visited ones. And the worst is hackage docs. It is really eye tiring to read. It's just a thought. Maybe it just with me. What about you? This was my initial impression. Red means broken. Links are blue. I thought maybe no one would be bothered by it, but I see one person at least. I'm not incredibly bothered by it, but I did find it a bit strange. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list haskell-c...@haskell.orghttp://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.org wrote: If I, as the developer of the FOO Haskell package, want to move to use github, can I get a source repo under that organisation as well? I'm asking since I am considering taking some of my packages from patch-tag to github (it's really github I want, it's unfortunate that it also means I'll have to leave darcs), it would then be nice to have those repos as a part of the haskell organisation. The GitHub organization was intended for core packages (i.e. packages in the Haskell Platform.) By having a shared organization, these libraries don't have to live under any single developer's account and we can change maintainers without changing the repo location. For any other package, just upload it under your own GitHub user. Johan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:41 AM, John Lato jwl...@gmail.com wrote: Similarly, what's the remit of the Haskell organization on github? Is the intention to be an umbrella for any haskell package, or more restricted? I have the same question as Magnus (although in my case I took over something on github; if I could move to darcs and preserve history I would). See my reply to Magnus. I don't think it's scalable to put every Hackage package under one organization (and I don't think we gain much from doing so.) For now I think we should reserve the organization for core packages (i.e. HP packages.) For converting a repo and preserve history, see http://www.serpentine.com/blog/2010/10/21/how-to-migrate-from-darcs-to-mercurial-or-git/ Johan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 15:58, Johan Tibell johan.tib...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.org wrote: If I, as the developer of the FOO Haskell package, want to move to use github, can I get a source repo under that organisation as well? I'm asking since I am considering taking some of my packages from patch-tag to github (it's really github I want, it's unfortunate that it also means I'll have to leave darcs), it would then be nice to have those repos as a part of the haskell organisation. The GitHub organization was intended for core packages (i.e. packages in the Haskell Platform.) By having a shared organization, these libraries don't have to live under any single developer's account and we can change maintainers without changing the repo location. Fair enough. Do you have enough buy-in to make sure that the github organisation becomes the best location for *all* HP packages? That is, can I stop going to Hackage to find the home for HP packages? /M -- Magnus Therning (OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.org wrote: Fair enough. Do you have enough buy-in to make sure that the github organisation becomes the best location for *all* HP packages? That is, can I stop going to Hackage to find the home for HP packages? Probably not. I don't want to force any maintainers to switch VCS. For now, I would just like to make it possible for people who prefer Git (and GitHub) to use that to maintain their packages. There's also an issue with libraries that GHC depends on: the current build system relies on being able to check these out using darcs. Johan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] libffi mystery
Hi again This is what happens when you write actual for-users for-running programs, I guess. It's been a while... I've been writing some software with Network.CGI etc, which we run on the deparmental web server for my students to use. But we just had a bit of an upgrade on the system, and now (once cabal was properly installed) everything compiles again but nothing works. The reason appears to be that the executables now depend on a dynamic library libffi.so.5 which is not (and I am told cannot become) available on our web server. The current workaround is to compile with 6.8.2, which is survivable and will hopefully get me through the semester, but not ideal. Is there some way I can get some more static linking to happen? I did poke about online a bit and found some remarks to the effect that GHC got so much more portable after switching to the dynamic libffi. That sounds great, but tough luck for me. So, being both powerless and clueless, I can only ask: how hosed am I? I'd be grateful for any glimmers of light. Thanks Conor ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.orgwrote: Fair enough. Do you have enough buy-in to make sure that the github organisation becomes the best location for *all* HP packages? That is, can I stop going to Hackage to find the home for HP packages? That's never been our intention. github is for in-progress source trees; Hackage is for releases of code. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] libffi mystery
Conor McBride wrote: Is there some way I can get some more static linking to happen? I did poke about online a bit and found some remarks to the effect that GHC got so much more portable after switching to the dynamic libffi. That sounds great, but tough luck for me. So, being both powerless and clueless, I can only ask: how hosed am I? I'd be grateful for any glimmers of light. Have you tried passing -optl-static to ghc (which causes -static to be passed to ld)? Ganesh === Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html === ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] concurrency vs. I/O in GHC
On 28/10/2010 09:25 AM, Erik Hesselink wrote: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 23:09, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: GHC has a _parallel_ GC implementation, meaning that the GC event runs in parallel on several cores. But it does not (yet) have _concurrent_ GC, meaning that a GC event can happen at the same time as Haskell threads are running. (Basically, which Haskell code running, the references between objects could change while the GC engine is trying to analyse them, which would be Bad.) I understand that the developers are actively working on fixing this, since it can sometimes have a significant effect on the performance of multicore programs... I thought that young generations could be GC'ed while other threads were running, while collecting the old generation required synchronizing all threads. This seems to be what is shown on http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/new-gc-preview as well. I expect it to land in GHC HEAD in a few months time, and it should be in the autumn 2011 major release of GHC. In other words, this isn't how GHC works now, it's how some future version will work. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Map constructor in a DSL
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:09 AM, Dupont Corentin corentin.dup...@gmail.com wrote: EAp :: Exp ref (a - b) - Exp ref a - Exp ref b It's from which DSL? It is accessible on the net? It's my own, just written off the top of my head as an example. Accessible on the net: yes, it's in your email. there's nothing more. But in the suggestions from Ryan and Brandon I don't understand why I should add an extra type parameter and what it is! I don't know in Brandon's case, but in my case it's for two reasons: (1) It allows you to write multiple interpreters for the language by changing the type of variables passed around. But, that's not important if you are only planning to have a single interpreter. (2) By parametricity, any CExp can't inspect the insides of a reference; all ELam can do with its argument is pass it to EVar. If you have a concrete variable type, you can do weird things like ELam (\(V x) - EVar (V (x+1))) which doesn't quite make sense. (how are you returning a variable containing a different value than the one you passed in? -- ryan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] libffi mystery
Sittampalam, Ganesh ganesh.sittampa...@credit-suisse.com writes: Have you tried passing -optl-static to ghc (which causes -static to be passed to ld)? It used to be: -optl-static -optl-pthread But it doesn't seem to work anymore on my install. % ./a.out a.out: ../sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/getpagesize.c:32: __getpagesize: Assertion `_rtld_global_ro._dl_pagesize != 0' failed. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] concurrency vs. I/O in GHC
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 19:06, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: On 28/10/2010 09:25 AM, Erik Hesselink wrote: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 23:09, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: GHC has a _parallel_ GC implementation, meaning that the GC event runs in parallel on several cores. But it does not (yet) have _concurrent_ GC, meaning that a GC event can happen at the same time as Haskell threads are running. (Basically, which Haskell code running, the references between objects could change while the GC engine is trying to analyse them, which would be Bad.) I understand that the developers are actively working on fixing this, since it can sometimes have a significant effect on the performance of multicore programs... I thought that young generations could be GC'ed while other threads were running, while collecting the old generation required synchronizing all threads. This seems to be what is shown on http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/new-gc-preview as well. I expect it to land in GHC HEAD in a few months time, and it should be in the autumn 2011 major release of GHC. In other words, this isn't how GHC works now, it's how some future version will work. Ah, sorry, I missed that. Erik ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
Today I uploaded a package to Hackage, and rediscovered something that you already know: I'm an idiot. More specifically, I copied the Cabal description from another package and then updated all the fields. Except that I forgot to update one. And now I have a package which I've erroneously placed in completely the wrong category. Is there any danger that at some point in the future, it might be possible to edit a package /after/ it has been released on Hackage? There are several reasons why you might wish to do this (beyond realising you did something wrong five minutes after hitting the upload button): The maintainer might change. The homepage might move. A better package might come along, making the existing one obsolete. Or you might want to stick a message on the package saying hey, this version has a serious bug, please use the next version up instead! (I guess you wouldn't want to actually change the code content of a package. That leaves the potential for several /different/ variants of the same package floating around, depending on when people installed it. That would be Bad.) Is there any danger that we might be able to do these kinds of things sometime soon? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
On 28/10/2010 12:30 PM, Sebastian Fischer wrote: Maybe we can keep at least the docs without red links. Pick the Classic style in the style menu. It will remember your choice. Yes, at least with new Haddock you can *change* the style without having to actually patch (and recompile) Haddock itself. :-) In the category of annoying things: Is there any particular *reason* why Source appears before Contents? I would think the latter is going to get clicked infinitely more often than the former... (Also, for reasons I can't quite pin down, sometimes the Style button appears on top of the Source button. I don't know what causes this glitch yet...) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On 10/28/10 12:34 PM, Andrew Coppin wrote: More specifically, I copied the Cabal description from another package and then updated all the fields. Except that I forgot to update one. And now I have a package which I've erroneously placed in completely the wrong category. I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who has done this. :-) I second the notion that it would nice to be able to tweak the meta-data of a package after uploading it. Cheers, Greg ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
gcross: On 10/28/10 12:34 PM, Andrew Coppin wrote: More specifically, I copied the Cabal description from another package and then updated all the fields. Except that I forgot to update one. And now I have a package which I've erroneously placed in completely the wrong category. I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who has done this. :-) I second the notion that it would nice to be able to tweak the meta-data of a package after uploading it. Status of Infrastructure questions like this are best asked on the Haskell Reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/search?q=hackagerestrict_sr=onsort=new In fact, there was a recent announcement about this: http://cogracenotes.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/policy-on-hackage-server/ Where you can edit tags live on the new server. -- Don P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On 28 October 2010 20:59, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Status of Infrastructure questions like this are best asked on the Haskell Reddit. [SNIP] P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:44:04 +0200, Stephen Tetley stephen.tet...@gmail.com wrote: P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... Same here - I find mailing lists a lot easier to follow than both the Haskell Reddit and especially StackOverflow. I'm already following Haskell Reddit, but I never found StackOverflow to be very nice :-\ Also, I think that the haskell-beginners mailing list is great, I would be pained to see it abandoned in favor of StackOverflow. Just my 2¢. Aleks ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
stephen.tetley: On 28 October 2010 20:59, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Status of Infrastructure questions like this are best asked on the Haskell Reddit. [SNIP] P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? The online services provide searchable content, tagging, and the ability to rate, edit and refer to previous content. E.g. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/haskell?sort=hotpagesize=15 Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... It's too late. The number of subscribers to the Haskell Reddit, for example, is double the -cafe@, and there are comparable numbers of questions being asked on the Stack Overflow [haskell] tag, as here -- so anyone who only reads -cafe@ is already missing a lot of stuff. A lot of the community has already voted on the efficacy of mailing lists for large communities, by moving their discussion elsewhere. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On Thursday 28 October 2010 22:44:04, Stephen Tetley wrote: On 28 October 2010 20:59, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Status of Infrastructure questions like this are best asked on the Haskell Reddit. [SNIP] P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... + 1 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:34, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: Today I uploaded a package to Hackage, and rediscovered something that you already know: I'm an idiot. More specifically, I copied the Cabal description from another package and then updated all the fields. Except that I forgot to update one. And now I have a package which I've erroneously placed in completely the wrong category. Don't worry; of all the various ways to screw up a Hackage upload, setting the wrong category is just about the least important. Wait until you've got a few dozen packages in the air, and your hair will turn grey ;) Is there any danger that at some point in the future, it might be possible to edit a package /after/ it has been released on Hackage? There are several reasons why you might wish to do this (beyond realising you did something wrong five minutes after hitting the upload button): Sadly, the current Hackage maintainers follow the immutability is good school of design. A few aspects of packages can be modified, but most (those contained in the .cabal file) cannot. The maintainer might change. The homepage might move. Both of these are handled by uploading a package with a _._._.Z version number; in general, package version numbers are: X.X.Y.Z X.X - the package's major version. Bump this when there's a backwards-incompatible change (eg, dependent packages might break) Y - minor version. Bump this when the package changes, but in a backwards-compatible way. Z - patch version. Bump this when you just change something that doesn't affect the code itself (comments, documentation, cabal properties) A better package might come along, making the existing one obsolete. The only way to mark packages as obsolete, as far as I know, is to email a Hackage administrator. Or you might want to stick a message on the package saying hey, this version has a serious bug, please use the next version up instead! This would be useful; maybe a feature for Hackage 2? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
On 10/27/2010 10:08 AM, Günther Schmidt wrote: Dear Malcolm, since there is no mail client library even after 10+ years I suggest to rethink the approach, because frankly, it's not working. Why do you keep suggesting this? http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo There is no need for a mail client library on many platforms. Just pipe the data to /usr/sbin/sendmail and poof. Done. Has it occurred to you that there is no mail client library because there is no need for one? Frankly I am unimpressed with monster 10,000-SLOC mail client libraries that make it a lot harder for me to pipe some stuff to sendmail. -- John Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
On 10/27/2010 11:55 AM, Ketil Malde wrote: What does essential mean? Something a hypothetical dictator wants, but nobody else? For surely, if your email library was so essential, it'd be included among the hundreds of libraries on Hackage? Perhaps it is a lot less important than you think? (None of my programs need to send email, so it's certainly not essential to me.) Or perhaps sufficient functionality is in the libraries suggested by Michael, and you just didn't find it when you looked? The third option is that sending mail is so ridiculously simple that no library is needed. This is, at least, the case for plain text messages on *nix. I will grant that when you toss MIME and Windows into the mix, s/simple/complex/ may become more appropriate. But we do already have MIME libraries. -- John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] If Python now has a good email library; how challenging is it to call Python from Haskell?
On 10/27/2010 01:22 PM, Donn Cave wrote: Don't know, but probably challenging enough to make it worth challenging the assumption that Python now has a good email library. From a cursory look at the 3.0 library documentation, it looks to me like IMAP support still means the old imaplib module. That's pretty rudimentary, compared to the HaskellNet IMAP support. Not just rudimentary, but hideously buggy and with a terrible API. imaplib2 improves the API a bit but makes the bugginess worse. I wrote and maintained OfflineIMAP from 2001 (I think) to 2010 so have just a wee bit of experience with that issue. Python's mail system is not strong in my book. It barely scrapes by. The MIME bits are decent, but the mail client stuff is very poor. There is no abstraction system over generic mailbox repositories IIRC. If you want to support IMAP, POP, Maildirs, mboxes, etc. you have to code up support for each. -- John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] New repo location for the network package
On 28/10/10 17:14, Bryan O'Sullivan wrote: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Magnus Therning mag...@therning.orgwrote: Fair enough. Do you have enough buy-in to make sure that the github organisation becomes the best location for *all* HP packages? That is, can I stop going to Hackage to find the home for HP packages? That's never been our intention. github is for in-progress source trees; Hackage is for releases of code. You misunderstood me. Currently I go to Hackage to look for stuff like: Source repository git clone git://github.com/haskell/network.git If all of HP were on github, then I wouldn't have to click my way through Hackage when I wanted to get to the source repos. /M -- Magnus Therning(OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] If Python now has a good email library; how challenging is it to call Python from Haskell?
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:05 PM, John Goerzen jgoer...@complete.org wrote: On 10/27/2010 01:22 PM, Donn Cave wrote: Don't know, but probably challenging enough to make it worth challenging the assumption that Python now has a good email library. From a cursory look at the 3.0 library documentation, it looks to me like IMAP support still means the old imaplib module. That's pretty rudimentary, compared to the HaskellNet IMAP support. Not just rudimentary, but hideously buggy and with a terrible API. imaplib2 improves the API a bit but makes the bugginess worse. I wrote and maintained OfflineIMAP from 2001 (I think) to 2010 so have just a wee bit of experience with that issue. This is off-subject, but I too wrote a mail program in python around 1999 or so. I eventually gave up on imaplib and wrote my own which was (if I may say so myself) simpler, easier to use, and less buggy. If no one has replaced it 10 years later, I'm guessing not too many people care about it. I was pretty tired of email by that point and tossed the whole project into some dark corner and forgot about it. Nowadays if I want to send email, it's cmdline sendmail all the way. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
Dear John, Am 28.10.10 23:57, schrieb John Goerzen: On 10/27/2010 10:08 AM, Günther Schmidt wrote: Dear Malcolm, since there is no mail client library even after 10+ years I suggest to rethink the approach, because frankly, it's not working. Why do you keep suggesting this? http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo Thanks for this, I wasn't aware that it also offered email handling. There is no need for a mail client library on many platforms. Just pipe the data to /usr/sbin/sendmail and poof. Done. That would work well for sending (on Unix), but not for receiving. Has it occurred to you that there is no mail client library because there is no need for one? No, to be honest, it never has. I absolutely cannot conceive of it. It'd be like not having HDBC for instance and having to roll my own database driver. It wouldn't have mattered how great a language haskell is, had it not had HDBC I would have had no choice but to drop it and move on. Database connectivity to me is one of the essential things I need to be able to do, and so is email, as is xml, as is http. Frankly I am unimpressed with monster 10,000-SLOC mail client libraries that make it a lot harder for me to pipe some stuff to sendmail. Well it's not necessarily only about sending mail, it's more about the whole shebang one wants / needs to do with mail. Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
On 10/28/2010 05:44 PM, Günther Schmidt wrote: There is no need for a mail client library on many platforms. Just pipe the data to /usr/sbin/sendmail and poof. Done. That would work well for sending (on Unix), but not for receiving. Quite true. For receiving, we have tools like fetchmail, imapsync, offlineimap, MH, the list goes on. The Unix philosophy is all about pluggable bits and pieces that can be reused all over the place. I like that philosophy. It means that one doesn't have to reinvent mail handling n times for n languages. As long as your language can do some piping, you can handle the basics of mail. Now, I'll grant you that fetchmail won't solve every possible mail access scenario. It isn't, for instance, good enough to be the backend of OfflineIMAP. But I do want to push back on the notion that, on POSIX platforms, these things have to be reinvented for each language. It just isn't so. Has it occurred to you that there is no mail client library because there is no need for one? No, to be honest, it never has. I absolutely cannot conceive of it. It'd be like not having HDBC for instance and having to roll my own database driver. It wouldn't have mattered how great a language haskell is, had Hmm, I am perhaps uniquely qualified to say been there, done that ;-) The existing Haskell database drivers at the time didn't meet my needs. They lacked some things I considered rudimentary and standard. I felt about them approximately the way you did about mail. I decided that Haskell would be enough of a long-term win to justify writing HDBC. So I did, and I'm glad of it. I think you are getting some resistance here because you appear to be demanding that others volunteer their time to meet your pet need. This attitude doesn't usually work. it not had HDBC I would have had no choice but to drop it and move on. Or you could have written HDBC. Or you could have used unixODBC, which already solved that problem. (Whoops, did I do a tiny bit of wheel reinvention myself? Indeed I did, with the PostgreSQL HDBC backend. There are reasons for it though.) Database connectivity to me is one of the essential things I need to be able to do, and so is email, as is xml, as is http. HTTP is another thing that can easily be outsourced. I've been somewhat unhappy at various points in time with the Haskell HTTP libraries. No problem, though; there's always Curl. One can choose the Haskell libcurl binding or call the Curl binary directly; it's even portable to all sorts of platforms, and you get not just HTTP, but FTP, Gopher, SCP, and some other useful protocols along for the ride. Well it's not necessarily only about sending mail, it's more about the whole shebang one wants / needs to do with mail. So if it's not about sending, it's about receiving or accessing stored mail. The Maildir spec is very simple and easily implemented. Google tells me there is an implementation in xmonad already. Tools to get mail into Maildirs are plentiful and featureful. My point is this: using existing tools on your system, and turning a blind eye to their implementation language, can be a perfectly workable, and even elegant, solution. Example: say you needed to copy a directory containing files and directories. Is that easy to do? You could probably whip up some sort of recursive file copying thing to do that in a few lines of code. But will it handle things like preserving permissions bits, ownership, ACLs, symbolic links, not following symlinks, etc. correctly? We already have a tool that does all those things (cp -a), so using it is, in my book, more elegant than writing a (probably more buggy and certainly less tested) clone. So I'm pushing back on your unstated premise; namely, that a Haskell library for mail handling is necessary for efficient mail handling in Haskell. I don't think it is. -- John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Red links in the new haskell theme
On 28 October 2010 16:48, Kevin Jardine kevinjard...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair to the Haddock designer, red links are common these days. Here's two examples (among many): http://www.bbc.co.uk/ http://www.slate.com/ In the second case the site uses blue, black *and* red links to distinguish different types of content. They are all in bold and underline when hovered over so are not hard to distinguish from ordinary text. I don't think two examples of big sites prove good usability. Both of those sites are jumbled messes anyway. For what it's worth, (1) links are blue, (2) red means error, (3) search goes on the top right, (4) login goes on the top right, (5) logo goes on the top left, (6) breadcrumb goes at the top left above or below the logo, (7) menu goes on the left or top, (8) basket goes on the right. These are standards, the fact one big web site decides to go against the standard doesn't mean you should. What colour are the links your email web client is using right now? But eh, whatever, no one listens to me on the topic of design so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
It's working just fine. I've never wanted a mail client library. :) -- Lennart 2010/10/27 Günther Schmidt gue.schm...@web.de: Dear Malcolm, since there is no mail client library even after 10+ years I suggest to rethink the approach, because frankly, it's not working. Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Does it deserve to be a hackage package?
On 10/27/10 1:13 AM, Dmitry V'yal wrote: Code I wrote works quite well for my purposes and I copied it into several my programs. In order to make maintenance easier I recently thought about uploading it to hackage. But given a wast amount of half-dead packages with intersecting functionality there I'd like to ask the opinion of community. Does such library look helpful to you? Absolutely! Please do release it in its own package. Gtk2hs is certainly too heavy a dependency for this. I don't think you'll find anything in it, but here's what I've been using: http://joyful.com/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=hledger;a=headblob;f=/hledger/Hledger/Cli/Utils.hs - openBrowserOn ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell meeting in Berlin
Hi, thanks to all participants for the funny meeting! I had a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to see you again. Best, Daniel Sönke Hahn schrieb: Hi all! There will be an informal Haskell meeting in Berlin. Date: Thursday, October 28th Time: from 20:00 Location: c-base, Rungestrasse 20, 10179 Berlin The bi-monthly lisp meeting takes place at the same time and place [1]. This is the first of hopefully more meetings to come, so we will probably discuss the details of following meetings. If you're in Berlin and want to talk to other Haskell users (or want to yell at lisp users for being from the dark side of the force), please come by. Cheers, Sönke [1] http://www.c-base.org/calender/phpicalendar/month.php ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
Dear John, Am 29.10.10 01:23, schrieb John Goerzen: On 10/28/2010 05:44 PM, Günther Schmidt wrote: There is no need for a mail client library on many platforms. Just pipe the data to /usr/sbin/sendmail and poof. Done. That would work well for sending (on Unix), but not for receiving. Quite true. For receiving, we have tools like fetchmail, imapsync, offlineimap, MH, the list goes on. The Unix philosophy is all about pluggable bits and pieces that can be reused all over the place. I like that philosophy. It means that one doesn't have to reinvent mail handling n times for n languages. As long as your language can do some piping, you can handle the basics of mail. Now, I'll grant you that fetchmail won't solve every possible mail access scenario. It isn't, for instance, good enough to be the backend of OfflineIMAP. But I do want to push back on the notion that, on POSIX platforms, these things have to be reinvented for each language. It just isn't so. Has it occurred to you that there is no mail client library because there is no need for one? No, to be honest, it never has. I absolutely cannot conceive of it. It'd be like not having HDBC for instance and having to roll my own database driver. It wouldn't have mattered how great a language haskell is, had Hmm, I am perhaps uniquely qualified to say been there, done that ;-) The existing Haskell database drivers at the time didn't meet my needs. They lacked some things I considered rudimentary and standard. I felt about them approximately the way you did about mail. I decided that Haskell would be enough of a long-term win to justify writing HDBC. So I did, and I'm glad of it. I think you are getting some resistance here because you appear to be demanding that others volunteer their time to meet your pet need. Well this is exactly what I have the most problem with. This assumption. It is exactly this where I am seriously taking offense. I suddenly am taking fire from all sides for things that were actually said more bluntly by people before me. One of the responses out of the hysteria that developed even suggested I was calling for a dictator. Get a grip. Other people before me lamented about the lack of a good email client library as can be seen here: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell_proposals/top/?t=year Do not assume that the words that were put into my mouth by hysterical posters are indeed my own, they are not. Consider what I did say and not what others suggest I did. I also noticed that one of your co-authors made statements regarding the quality of available libraries on hackage, without being blown to bits. My own posts in this thread did not come close to even suggesting that. This attitude doesn't usually work. Nor should it. it not had HDBC I would have had no choice but to drop it and move on. Or you could have written HDBC. Or you could have used unixODBC, which already solved that problem. (Whoops, did I do a tiny bit of wheel reinvention myself? Indeed I did, with the PostgreSQL HDBC backend. There are reasons for it though.) Database connectivity to me is one of the essential things I need to be able to do, and so is email, as is xml, as is http. HTTP is another thing that can easily be outsourced. I've been somewhat unhappy at various points in time with the Haskell HTTP libraries. No problem, though; there's always Curl. One can choose the Haskell libcurl binding or call the Curl binary directly; it's even portable to all sorts of platforms, and you get not just HTTP, but FTP, Gopher, SCP, and some other useful protocols along for the ride. Well it's not necessarily only about sending mail, it's more about the whole shebang one wants / needs to do with mail. So if it's not about sending, it's about receiving or accessing stored mail. The Maildir spec is very simple and easily implemented. Google tells me there is an implementation in xmonad already. Tools to get mail into Maildirs are plentiful and featureful. I appreciate that you are a proficient Unix / Posixler but it just so happens that I was thinking more about accessing POP3 account, which I imagine to a fairly common usage scenario. To my defense I did mention that the lack of certain libraries does not cause the same problem to more capable people, such as yourself, as they do to people less capable. Hey you rolled your own database access library (and shared it, much appreciated). But most would struggle with such a lack. There is this one posters who likes to repeatedly point out how none of his programs ever needed email, so how could it be a problem then. Well good for him, but in my experience it's needed. My point is this: using existing tools on your system, and turning a blind eye to their implementation language, can be a perfectly workable, and even elegant, solution. Example: say you needed to copy a directory containing files and directories. Is
[Haskell-cafe] Re: who's in charge?
Hello Lennart, Am 29.10.10 01:44, schrieb Lennart Augustsson: It's working just fine. I've never wanted a mail client library. :) Yes, that is wonderful, I'm really happy for you :P -- Lennart ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
There is this one posters who likes to repeatedly point out how none of his programs ever needed email, so how could it be a problem then. Well good for him, but in my experience it's needed. This is the main issue I think people had with your original posts. You say good for him, but I need it now, and others have said (approximately, with varying niceness) we're sorry for you, but we haven't need it so far. You may have had words put in your mouth, but suggesting that the community's approach isn't working (your actual words) simply because something _you_ need isn't available (or of sufficient quality to you) is bound to cause some hostility. Saying something along the lines of: I noticed that there isn't a fully functional mail library on par with X in language Y, and need one for project Z (insert motivating description here). I think this is a useful library because applications A, B, C could all benefit from it, and we may attract users from other languages too. I had a friend who told me he didn't use Haskell for his latest project because it had no mail library, too. Would anyone be interested in a project for a full-featured mail library? I don't think I'm capable of writing the whole thing myself, but I've started a github project at URL and would be happy to collaborate in IRC channel #channel on freenode. Would have resulted in a very different response. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] fundata1 -- Karmic Social Capital Benchmark and Shootout
I am happy to announce fundata1 -- the largest-ever program per RAM allocation in Haskell, originally implemented in Clojure and then OCaml and Haskell for social network modeling. http://github.com/alexy/fundata1 It has now become the first large-scale social networking benchmark with a real dynamic social graph built from the actual Twitter gardenhose, with the data OK'd by Twitter and supplied along with the benchmark. I wrote three reference implementations, all on github as well. Clojure and OCaml are quite basic, while Haskell community had a chance to optimize its data structures and in fact fix a GC integer overflow while working on it. You're welcome to fork and improve all of these implementations, and supply others! There's a Google Group, http://groups.google.com/group/fundata/ to discuss the shootout. There's also a blog about it and other functional things at http://functional.tv/ Let the fun begin! -- Alexy Khrabrov firstname.lastnameATgmaildotcom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] fundata1 -- Karmic Social Capital Benchmark and Shootout
Great stuff! I have an improvements to HashMaps that I'm working on that will hopefully work well here. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Edit Hackage
On 29 October 2010 07:53, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: On Thursday 28 October 2010 22:44:04, Stephen Tetley wrote: On 28 October 2010 20:59, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Status of Infrastructure questions like this are best asked on the Haskell Reddit. [SNIP] P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... + 1 +1; I see no need to sign up for a reddit account to ask a question there, etc. (and the few times I tried to use my OpenID account to answer questions on StackOverflow I couldn't quite work out what some of the options meant, etc.) IIUC, [one of] the prime motivating factor[s] behind both reddit and StackOverflow is the accumulation of karma, which leads to people posting just to try and accumulate karma even if they don't know what they're talking about. Here, we are (hopefully) above such mundane things. Another point against reddit: Don posted a link to my survey on the naming of fgl a few months back. Someone then queried [1] the two naming choices that were available on reddit rather than reading the discussions that had already taken place here on -cafe or bothering to actually ask _me_. Similar things go with submitted blog posts: rather than discussing the content as comments on the blog post, they discuss them on reddit thus depriving readers of the post itself of what they think. [1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/cp50y/should_the_new_graph_library_be_called_fgl_or/c0u6b6n -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
On 10/28/2010 07:48 PM, Daniel Peebles wrote: Would anyone be interested in a project for a full-featured mail library? I don't think I'm capable of writing the whole thing myself, but I've started a github project at URL and would be happy to collaborate in IRC channel #channel on freenode. Would have resulted in a very different response. That is absolutely well put. Günther, I don't condone hostility on the part of anyone on this list, obviously. If you experienced it, it's not right. By the same token, you came in here talking about escalating a problem, and saying that an entire process was fundamentally broken because you hadn't found a solution to your particular problem. What people are trying to tell you is: 1) That argument isn't well-formed, because that conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. In other words, your pet problem may not indicate a bad community/process. 2) This is a doocracy (man do I hate that word!). If there is a problem, here's what you should do about it, in descending order of attractiveness: a) Fix it yourself b) Pay someone else to fix it c) Motivate or politely encourage others to fix it, providing moral support, etc. The key point is: you haven't paid any of us for this, and you have nothing even close to some sort of support contract. I perceive a sense of entitlement on your part that people owe you no-cost coding. That's just not how the community works. Whether or not you really have that sense, I don't know, but your messages convey it nonetheless. 3) There are several existing solutions for doing mail in Haskell, and those of us that have used them have, to date, found them perfectly adequate. a) Some of them Google or hackage searches could have informed you of. You should do more research before insulting an entire community. b) It is, of course, possible that these solutions don't meet your needs. In that event, see #2. On a personal note, some of you with moderately long and extremely sharp memories, or perhaps access to Google, may find some messages from me in my early Haskell days grousing about this or that problem. Ultimately, the questions for me were: 1) Is the problem real? In other words, was there simply something I didn't know/understand about the language that would have made it go away? 2) Can I fix it? If so, I should try. 3) How annoying is it? I wrote some of my libraries when I was still a Haskell newbie (and with the number of Ph. D's around here, I'm not always sure I've shed that title yet!)... sometimes that shows in the older code that's out there. But that's OK; it solved my problem and, truly, I had fun writing them. Sometimes it is easier to write a Haskell library to solve the problem than to use an off-the-shelf library in $LANGUAGE. -- John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
Dear John, The key point is: you haven't paid any of us for this, and you have nothing even close to some sort of support contract. I perceive a sense of entitlement on your part that people owe you no-cost coding. Would you please stop perceiving this then? Because no I don't. I won't deny that I'd be happy if it was there but that I think that I'm entitled to it is just off. So you may stop it, please. Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Red links in the new haskell theme
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: On 28/10/2010 12:30 PM, Sebastian Fischer wrote: Maybe we can keep at least the docs without red links. Pick the Classic style in the style menu. It will remember your choice. Yes, at least with new Haddock you can *change* the style without having to actually patch (and recompile) Haddock itself. :-) In the category of annoying things: Is there any particular *reason* why Source appears before Contents? I would think the latter is going to get clicked infinitely more often than the former... Well, I can almost always use the back button to go to 'Contents,' however I don't have any other options for getting to source. I guess I use them about equally when I'm browsing Hackage. Antoine ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Current thinking on CompositionAsDot issue in haskell prime?
On 10/28/10 10:42 AM, Ben Millwood wrote: Here's the wiki page: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/CompositionAsDot Personally I think function composition is what Haskell is all about and it is absolutely essential that the syntax for it be lightweight. If we think using . as qualification as well as composition is confusing, I'm much more inclined to say using it as qualification was a mistake. The comment on the wiki page about $ being more common in reality is not even close to true for my own code, and I don't think I'm unusual in that regard. Agreed on both counts. Personally, I'd much rather have name qualification and record selection use a different character than to remove (.) as composition. And replacing (.) with some abomination like `o` is unthinkable. As for the selector character, I'm partial to # but that would clash with MagicHash. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Edit Hackage
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 October 2010 07:53, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: On Thursday 28 October 2010 22:44:04, Stephen Tetley wrote: On 28 October 2010 20:59, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: P.S. I encourage people to use the online forums: Haskell Reddit and Stack Overflow, as a lot of the question-answering activity has shifted there now, away from -cafe@ Err, Why? Having to track three places for information rather than one doesn't seem like a good swap to me... + 1 +1; I see no need to sign up for a reddit account to ask a question there, etc. Another +1. I always find it painful to sign up for yet another account on yet another web service. No, I have no OpenID account, nor am I planning to create one. Also I strictly refuse to go to Reddit or StackOverflow. I agree that having to track three independent sites is stupid and not in any way productive. Mailing lists and newsgroups share one very desirable property: They are independent of the design choices of a single entity, whereas in Reddit and StackOverflow the webmasters choose what's supposed to be good for you. To say that by not going to Reddit/StackOverflow you miss a lot of information is almost like propaganda, a cheap way to enforce one's preferences. A professional community member should never say such a thing. Personal opinion. Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
2) This is a doocracy (man do I hate that word!). If there is a problem, here's what you should do about it, in descending order of attractiveness: a) Fix it yourself b) Pay someone else to fix it c) Motivate or politely encourage others to fix it, providing moral support, etc. The key point is: you haven't paid any of us for this, and you have nothing even close to some sort of support contract. I perceive a sense of entitlement on your part that people owe you no-cost coding. That's just not how the community works. Whether or not you really have that sense, I don't know, but your messages convey it nonetheless. I understand why this and have accepted it. That being said the lack of certain well documented high quality and widely written about libraries are probably the biggest challenge to Haskell adoption after the IO Monad. As a beginner I really have struggled to understand what the right libraries to use are for common problems (specifically databases). However other problems like the lack of a high resolution, well documented date time library were also a source of friction. The reason I am using haskell is to solve specific types of difficult problems in machine learning and it is very good at that. Gluing a fully working stack together has been challenging. I agree that people need to be proactive about solving their own problems but whenever I here any open source community (yeah...everyone not just haskell) tell beginners to contribute a package I always scratch my head with a little bit of wonder. Would you really want a package that someone like me who is still trying to figure out how to utilize haskell's features would build? Do you want my outrageous non-use of the Monads that haskell offers? Haskell adoption is a frequently discussed topic and I personally believe that haskell will and should remain a niche language for solving certain types of problems. However if others in the community take the position that success is determined by adoption then Haskell needs to have a solid and well documented story about all the problems that developers that write regular applications face including database communication, ORMs, XML, Web Services, web pages (I know there is Yesod just making the point),model view controllers (hits self in head), etc... If regular developers are the target then they want to be told what to do and what to use (with something like MSDN or some of the big java toolkits), not discover it for themselves. I say this with superior confidence after spending 2 years in a large (2000+) developer organization. I believe as a relative newcomer that haskell is best utilized when solving complex and difficult to reason about problems that involve small teams of highly skilled developers. Most software does not meet this criteria. There are a wide variety of inferior technologies ;-) (ahem java) that can be used to build most applications in the world. Haskell should not try to compete because it can't (marketing problem), and there are many things that it enables to be done better. Not intending to flame (or otherwise ignite the fires of passion) at all. Steve ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
On Oct 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Günther Schmidt wrote: Dear Malcolm, since there is no mail client library even after 10+ years I suggest to rethink the approach, because frankly, it's not working. Hello! I am in charge, sorry for the delay! A number of years ago I tried to form a MIME strike force to create a library that would be suitable for composing mail messages, decoding mail messages, or transforming mail messages. But received no real interest: http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell-cafe@haskell.org/msg21872.html The fact that it is now considered an oddity (by some) that there is no standard, well support mail library is a sign of great progress in my opinion. The driving force is likely to be web development platforms such as happstack, snap, and yesod, because one often wants to integrate email with a web site. (such as send emails to members, etc). That said, there have been many attempts at various portions of the mail infrastructure over the years. As part of that strike force attempt I create this mime library (not on hackage): http://src.seereason.com/haskell-mime/ It can parse and decode multipart messages. And it has the beginning of an interface for composing messages. One thing I attempted to do was create a mail composition DSL that only allowed you to construct valid messages. For example, some headers can only appear once, and others can appear multiple times. So I attempted to encode that into the DSL. I was successful to some degree. There is also the mime-string library on hackage which does MIME parsing. There is the new mime-mail library for creating and sending MIME messages. happstack had the beginnings of a MTA at one point in time, but was removed until someone comes along with the desire and time to really implement it. There is the Postmaster ESMTP server, http://gitorious.org/postmaster which acts as a MDA for receiving mail and filtering it into folders. It allows you to write your filtering rules in Haskell instead of some obtuse filter language (e.g., procmail). And there are other projects I have not mentioned as well. I guess part of the question is, do you specifically mean a 'mail client'. There are a lot of pieces to the mail puzzle including, MUA, MTA, MDA, MIME, etc. And there is the reading of saved mail formats like mbox, Maildir, etc. And then there are the various protocols like SMTP, POP3, IMAP4, etc. And things like GPG signatures and encryption. Using the libraries that are available right now I can create a mime email and send it via sendmail or via an SMTP smart host. I can also use a well established program like dovecot to receive mail and then decode messages using mime-string on haskell-mime. That gets me pretty far for what I need to do. Writing a competitor to mutt or gmail would be more difficult due to some missing pieces. But, then again, I think most people are satisfied enough with mutt and gmail, so not many people have any motivation to replace them. Same thing with a competitor to qmail/ dovecot/etc. Those tools are in place and work pretty well. So, replacing any of those really only becomes interesting if you are going to do something really new -- not just implementing them in your favorite language. Anyway, I do think there will be growth in the haskell mail library domain. Specifically the stuff that would be useful for integration with web applications. - jeremy___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
I understand your frustration at not having free tested libs ready-to-go, Java/any-other-mainstream-language programmers tend to expect this and usually get it. If a lack of libs is a dealbreaker for you and you want to use a functional programming language with some of Haskell's advantages (like immutability, lazy data structures and STM) I encourage you to check out Clojure [1] a nicely designed Lisp. It is tightly integrated in to the JVM and you have access to all the Java libs you want. -deech [1] http://clojure.org/ 2010/10/27 Günther Schmidt gue.schm...@web.de Hi Malcolm, well if I would like to point out that, for instance, Haskell exists for a lot more than 10 years now, and that, while the language per se rocks, and there are cool tools (cabal) and libraries (list, Set, Map), there still isn't even a mail client library, I wonder whom to escalate this to, and who is going to do something about it. I understand some parties wish to avoid success at all costs, while others, commercial users, benefit from the edge haskell gives them already and which probably can help themselves in case of, again, for instance a missing mail client library. And then there is the ones like me, which also want to benefit from the edge Haskell gives them over users of other languages and want to develop Real World Apps and who cannot easily help themselves in case of a missing mail client library. So while there are many aspects of the future of haskell, who effectively is it that steers the boat? Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] who's in charge?
Or if you want to keep the advantages of a powerful type system, you can use Scala. Cheers, Greg On 10/28/10 9:53 PM, aditya siram wrote: I understand your frustration at not having free tested libs ready-to-go, Java/any-other-mainstream-language programmers tend to expect this and usually get it. If a lack of libs is a dealbreaker for you and you want to use a functional programming language with some of Haskell's advantages (like immutability, lazy data structures and STM) I encourage you to check out Clojure [1] a nicely designed Lisp. It is tightly integrated in to the JVM and you have access to all the Java libs you want. -deech [1] http://clojure.org/ 2010/10/27 Günther Schmidt gue.schm...@web.de mailto:gue.schm...@web.de Hi Malcolm, well if I would like to point out that, for instance, Haskell exists for a lot more than 10 years now, and that, while the language per se rocks, and there are cool tools (cabal) and libraries (list, Set, Map), there still isn't even a mail client library, I wonder whom to escalate this to, and who is going to do something about it. I understand some parties wish to avoid success at all costs, while others, commercial users, benefit from the edge haskell gives them already and which probably can help themselves in case of, again, for instance a missing mail client library. And then there is the ones like me, which also want to benefit from the edge Haskell gives them over users of other languages and want to develop Real World Apps and who cannot easily help themselves in case of a missing mail client library. So while there are many aspects of the future of haskell, who effectively is it that steers the boat? Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org mailto:Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
