Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Scherrer, Chad wrote: Maybe my point wasn't clear. Of course this idea of comparing lazy evaluation to Unix pipes is very old (long before July 2004, I'm sure). The point I'm making is that there is an old idea that may be underused. It is, and only because (.) is defined all wrong! The unix pipe is actually function composition. Its argument (standard input) isn't explicitly mentioned, so the analogous Haskell code should do the same. However, function composition reads backwards, which makes code quite unreadable, especially when (.), (=) and `liftM` (which also has an all wrong fixity) are mixed. Im summary, I'd define infixl 0 # infixl 1 # infixl 2 \| (#) = flip ($) (#) = flip liftM (\|) = flip (.) -- though I'm using () The unix pipe becomes (filter (foo `isPrefixOf`) \| sort \| nub) or something, which is rather neat, and (#) is used to call member functions, as in some_map # add key value # add something or_other # delete old_trash which actually gives the result one expects when reading it top to bottom. In summary, (.) is tremendously useful, but it would be even better if it had the correct argument order. Unfortunately, this cannot be corrected any more. Udo. -- God is real, unless declared as an Integer. - Unknown Source signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 11:17:25AM +0100, Udo Stenzel wrote: infixl 2 \| (\|) = flip (.) -- though I'm using () The unix pipe becomes (filter (foo `isPrefixOf`) \| sort \| nub) or something, which is rather neat, and (#) is used to call member functions, as in Why not use Control.Arrow. ? The instance for (-) is exactly what you want, and the syntax is quite nice: (filter (foo `isPrefixOf`) sort nub) BTW, using sort before nub is a bit pointless. In fact, using nub for longer lists is a bad idea. Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Udo Stenzel wrote: Scherrer, Chad wrote: Maybe my point wasn't clear. Of course this idea of comparing lazy evaluation to Unix pipes is very old (long before July 2004, I'm sure). The point I'm making is that there is an old idea that may be underused. It is, and only because (.) is defined all wrong! Since (a . b) x a $ b x a (b x) are equivalent, do you also want to reverse function and argument in order to match argument order of . and $ ? That is x (b . a) x b $ a (x b) a ? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Henning Thielemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since (a . b) x a $ b x a (b x) are equivalent, do you also want to reverse function and argument in order to match argument order of . and $ ? That is x (b . a) x b $ a (x b) a ? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking whether one should be allowed to write x f instead of f x? I don't think anyone is advocating this, but is can be convenient to have an infix operator for this purpose. Chad Scherrer Computational Mathematics Group Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -- Groucho Marx ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Scherrer, Chad wrote:
Henning Thielemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Since
(a . b) x
a $ b x
a (b x)
are equivalent, do you also want to reverse function and
argument in order to match argument order of . and $ ?
That is
x (b . a)
x b $ a
(x b) a
?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking
whether one should be allowed to write x f instead of f x? I don't think
anyone is advocating this, but is can be convenient to have an infix
operator for this purpose.
I want to say, that the order of symbols for ($), (.) and function
application is consistent. This is a fine thing. I think that shall not be
distroyed by giving ($) and (.) reversed argument order.
It's of course a good question, why () and (=) have the opposite
order of (.). Compare function application
a b
where a is applied to b with the monadic case
b = a
where a is applied to the result of b. This makes changing a non-monadic
expression to a similar monadic expression more difficult.
Why is there no () and why is (=) not the default? The order of 'do
{a;b;c}' is compatible with that of (). So we have the fundamental
conflict, that usually function application is from right to left, but
interpreting imperative statements is from left to right.
I think that's a similar conflict like that of little endian and big
endian.
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RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Henning Thielemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I want to say, that the order of symbols for ($), (.) and function application is consistent. This is a fine thing. I think that shall not be distroyed by giving ($) and (.) reversed argument order. I see. I like the argument order also, since it so nicely reflects mathematical notation. But I do think there's a place for (flip ($)) and (flip (.)). The problem is that the assignment of fixities is much more subtle and requires a consideration of what should be considered proper style. Chad Scherrer Computational Mathematics Group Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -- Groucho Marx ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Udo Stenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The unix pipe is actually function composition. Its argument (standard input) isn't explicitly mentioned Then it seems Unix must overload the | operator. I typically use it to do things like grep . *.hs | wc So I think of the types as being grep . *.hs :: String wc :: String - Int -- ok, not really, but it shows the point better. So we'd have to have (|) :: a - (a - b) - b And (flip ($)) is the only thing that makes sense. Is it the case that a Unix pipe is analagous to (flip ($)) or (flip (.)) depending on the context? Chad Scherrer Computational Mathematics Group Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -- Groucho Marx ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 09:01:07AM -0800, Scherrer, Chad wrote: So I think of the types as being grep . *.hs :: String wc :: String - Int -- ok, not really, but it shows the point better. Every unix program has a standard input, even if it doesn't use it, so I would rather give this type to grep . *.hs: grep . *.hs :: a - String You can run something like this p | echo bla | grep . *.hs | wc even if it seems non-sensical. Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 08:55 -0800, Scherrer, Chad wrote: . . . I see. I like the argument order also, since it so nicely reflects mathematical notation. But I do think there's a place for (flip ($)) and (flip (.)). The problem is that the assignment of fixities is much more subtle and requires a consideration of what should be considered proper style. Interesting note: in Richard Bird and Oege de Moor, _Algebra of Programming_, pp. 2-3, the authors write As a departure from tradition, we write f : A - B rather than f : B - A to indicate the source and target types associated with a function f. ... The reason for this choice has to do with functional composition, whose definition now takes the smooth form: if f : A - B and g : B - C, then f . g : A - C is defined by (f . g) x = f(g x). Further along the same paragraph they write: In the alternative, so-called diagrammatic forms, one writes x f for application and f ; g for composition, where x (f ; g) = (x f) g. I know I've read about the latter notation as one used by some algebraists, but I can't put my hands on a source right now. I guess it's not even entirely clear what constitutes mathematical notation. :-) -- Bill Wood ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 17:47 +0100, Henning Thielemann wrote:
. . .
Why is there no () and why is (=) not the default? The order of 'do
{a;b;c}' is compatible with that of (). So we have the fundamental
conflict, that usually function application is from right to left, but
interpreting imperative statements is from left to right.
I think that's a similar conflict like that of little endian and big
endian.
There may be something to your functional/imperative conflict.
I had occasion to develop a computational model of a theoretical
state-transition machine that the inventors wanted to be able to
program. My model used the standard trick of construing a parameterized
operation as a function f : Arg1 - ... - Argn - State - State. By
writing the (ML) code for the instructions in the curried form and using
a reversed composition operator, I was able to provide a programmatic
interface which could be laid out one instruction per line with the
composition operators way off to the right in the comment column, just
like assembler code! The inventors thought this was just wonderful
(there's no accounting for taste, I guess :-).
-- Bill Wood
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On 23/11/05, Scherrer, Chad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Interesting note: in Richard Bird and Oege de Moor, _Algebra of Programming_, pp. 2-3, the authors write As a departure from tradition, we write f : A - B rather than f : B - A to indicate the source and target types associated with a function f. ... The reason for this choice has to do with functional composition, whose definition now takes the smooth form: if f : A - B and g : B - C, then f . g : A - C is defined by (f . g) x = f(g x). Further along the same paragraph they write: In the alternative, so-called diagrammatic forms, one writes x f for application and f ; g for composition, where x (f ; g) = (x f) g. I know I've read about the latter notation as one used by some algebraists, but I can't put my hands on a source right now. I guess it's not even entirely clear what constitutes mathematical notation. :-) -- Bill Wood Good point. One of my undergrad algebra books (Contemporary Abstract Algebra, by Gallian) actually used notation like this. Function application was written (x f). Some people even write the function as an exponential. But (f x) is still far more common. Hmm, which edition? My copy (5th ed.) uses the ordinary notation: f(x). x f does perhaps make more sense, especially with the current categorical view of functions, but there would have to be a really hugely good reason to change notation, as almost all current work puts things the other way around. - Cale ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 21:21 -0500, Cale Gibbard wrote: . . . Hmm, which edition? My copy (5th ed.) uses the ordinary notation: f(x). x f does perhaps make more sense, especially with the current categorical view of functions, but there would have to be a really hugely good reason to change notation, as almost all current work puts things the other way around. My copy reads First published 1997 by Prentice Hall Europe (Address lines) Copyright Prentice Hall Europe 1997 ... ISBN 0-13-507245-X It's hardcover, white cover with red around the spine (standard for this series edited by C.A.R. Hoare), black banner with 100th title in red. The lack of any edition information leads me to surmise it's a first edition. Do you (or anyone) know if the diagrammatic notation has any currency among algebraists? -- Bill Wood ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Cale Gibbard: x f does perhaps make more sense, especially with the current categorical view of functions, but there would have to be a really hugely good reason to change notation, as almost all current work puts things the other way around. Almost all? Well, excluding the Smalltalkers, people using Forth, PostScript, etc. Jerzy Karczmarczuk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On 24/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cale Gibbard: x f does perhaps make more sense, especially with the current categorical view of functions, but there would have to be a really hugely good reason to change notation, as almost all current work puts things the other way around. Almost all? Well, excluding the Smalltalkers, people using Forth, PostScript, etc. Perhaps I should have qualified that: I meant in pure mathematics. - Cale ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
Albert Lai [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I offer a simpler, more direct, and pre-existing correspondence between a functional programming construct and unix pipes: Maybe my point wasn't clear. Of course this idea of comparing lazy evaluation to Unix pipes is very old (long before July 2004, I'm sure). The point I'm making is that there is an old idea that may be underused. We use ($) all over the place, but if there are a lot of them (and especially if they are spread over several lines) it becomes awkward to read the whole thing backward to trace through the function from beginning to end. In these cases, it's much simpler to use (\|) = flip ($) -- (#) seems to me too pretty for other purposes to use it here. infixl 0 \| -- Again, why can't this be negative or Fractional?? What I'm asking is really a question of pedagogy and style. This style seems reasonable to me. OTOH, there are some reasons not to do things in this way. Maybe any function big enough to benefit from writing it this way should be broken up anyway. Or maybe getting used to this style where the laziness is right in your face could make it more difficult for people to learn to reason through less obvious laziness. I'm really trying to figure out whether this approach is worth pursuing, rather than imply that this is a completely original idea. Chad Scherrer Computational Mathematics Group Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -- Groucho Marx ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 02:09:40PM -0800, Scherrer, Chad wrote: (\|) = flip ($) -- (#) seems to me too pretty for other purposes to use it here. infixl 0 \| -- Again, why can't this be negative or Fractional?? I have a ? operator that does the same thing. Next time I use it I'll check if \| looks better. Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
I offer a simpler, more direct, and pre-existing correspondence between a functional programming construct and unix pipes: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/pointfree.html Scherrer, Chad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm still trying to settle on a feel for good programming style in Haskell. One thing I've been making some use of lately is (\|) = flip ($) infixl 0 \| Then expressions like f4 $ f3 $ f2 $ f1 $ x become x \| f1 \| f2 \| f3 \| f4 I've seen something like this on haWiki using (#), but I prefer this notation because it looks like a Unix pipe, which is exactly how it's used. [...] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Function application like a Unix pipe
I'm still trying to settle on a feel for good programming style in Haskell. One thing I've been making some use of lately is (\|) = flip ($) infixl 0 \| Then expressions like f4 $ f3 $ f2 $ f1 $ x become x \| f1 \| f2 \| f3 \| f4 I've seen something like this on haWiki using (#), but I prefer this notation because it looks like a Unix pipe, which is exactly how it's used. This style makes the sequential feel of monadic do notation available to non-monadic functions, and would seem to ease the initial confusion most people experience when they first program using lazy evaluation. Many newbies have experience with Unix pipes, and this notation makes that analogy explicit. I have a couple of questions about this... First, it would be convenient if ($) could appear in an fi without extra parentheses, but this would require infixl (-1) \|. Is there a reason this isn't allowed? The current fixities don't seem to allow much room for expansion. Would it be possible to either (1) allow negative and/or fractional fixities, or (2) shift and spread out the current fixities to allow more flexibility in the introduction of new operators? I'm also trying to determine to what extent this style should really be used. Does anyone see this as bad style? Is there an argument why this might not be such a good way to ease someone into the language? Chad Scherrer Computational Mathematics Group Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. -- Groucho Marx ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
