Re: [Haskell-cafe] Nomic game in Haskell
Yes indeed, Nomic couldn't be fully coded, only a subset of it could be. Rules that are outside of the box cannot be expressed, the goal is, to have the largest box possible! Your rule: * Players must stand when proposing new rules. couldn't be coded directly, of course, since the computer has no sensor to detect the position of player ;) But it could be indirectly. Your rule could be coded like that: Full rule tiltle: Players must stand when proposing new rules Code when filtering a proposed rule: A question is asked to all players except the author of the rule: Does Player X stood when he proposed this rule? A vast majority of Yes must be acknowlegded to accept the rule. On the other hand, if we choose not to interpret the rules, the program could just be a configuration management system for rules. It could be a web site that maintain active rules, allow player voting etc. Corentin. On 4/15/10, Brent Yorgey byor...@seas.upenn.edu wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:14:18PM +0200, Dupont Corentin wrote: Hello Café, do you know Nomic? It's a fabulous and strange game where you have the right to change the rules in the middle of the game! In fact, changing the rules is the goal of the game. Changing a rule is considered as a move. Of course even that could be changed! www.nomic.net I'm wondering if it could be possible to implement a Nomic (or an helper for the game) in Haskell. Haskell seems appropriate for that, since functions are first order objects, and Haskell is good at DSLs. I don't think you could actually implement Nomic in the way you describe, because any system you come up with will necessarily place restrictions on what sorts of rules you are able to represent. Much of the fun of Nomic lies in coming up with new rules that are completely outside the box. For example, how would you encode a rule like * Players must stand when proposing new rules. or * Rules which do not mention other rules shall remain in effect until such time as the mobile telephone of the Grand Counselor rings. You get the idea. However, implementing some sort of system for encoding certain types of rules, and checking that they are valid/consistent/etc. sounds like it could be a fun project from which you would probably learn a lot! Essentially, you would be designing a syntax for rules, and a type system for ensuring that rules are valid or used in valid ways. It wouldn't be Nomic, but it could be something fun. -Brent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Nomic game in Haskell
Dupont asked: do you know Nomic? It's a fabulous and strange game where you have the right to change the rules in the middle of the game! I know nomic, but as has been pointed out, it's too wide-ranging to be captured in Haskell. So how about a game played in the Haskell type system where you get to play whatever type you like? Let's restrict ourselves to a total fragment of Haskell. Only allow structural recursion and that sort of thing. The 'board' is a Haskell type function. It'll look something like this: type Board a b c ... y z = ... with type variables a to z (no need to have precisely 26) and so that the right hand side is a type, not another type function. (A neutral third party will have to implement Board.) There are two players. They take turns where a turn consists of picking a concrete type to bind to precisely one previously unbound type variable. When there are no more legal moves left, player 1 now has to exhibit an element of the resulting type. If they succeed, they win, otherwise player 2 wins. Void is allowed. For example, consider type Board a b c d e f g = (Either a b, Either c d, Either e f, g) Player 1 must start by making g a type they know how to instantiate. Maybe g=Int. If not, then Player 2 chooses g=Void and they will never be able to make one of these 4-tuples. From now on, Player 2 has sente (to use go language) because Player 1 will always have to play in the same factor of the 4-tuple that Player 2 played in. Ultimately, however, Player 1 can force a win. -- Dan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Nomic game in Haskell
Hello Café, do you know Nomic? It's a fabulous and strange game where you have the right to change the rules in the middle of the game! In fact, changing the rules is the goal of the game. Changing a rule is considered as a move. Of course even that could be changed! www.nomic.net I'm wondering if it could be possible to implement a Nomic (or an helper for the game) in Haskell. Haskell seems appropriate for that, since functions are first order objects, and Haskell is good at DSLs. What I think, is creating a DSL where a rule could be expressed as a function, or a monad. Many kinds of rules could be expressed: 1. - a rule that says that player #1 must be named Grand Counselor. 2. - a rule that says that the following rules must be voted at the majority, and how. 3. - a rule that says that the money is the ECU. 4. - a rule that says that if a rule is accepted, the author is awarded 1 ECU. 5. - a rule that says that all rules must have a name. 6. - a rule that says that democracy is abolished. God save the King, Player #1! 7. - a rule that says that a rule mustn't suppress another. As you can see, the rules are highly self-referencing! some rules, like #1, describes a protocol, involving IO (players voting). some rules, like #7, could be implemented with a test over new rules (that rule could test proposed rules against rule suppression). some rules, like #5, must inspect the code of other rules. A proposed rule must pass all active rule's criterias to become active. Once active, a rule should be applyed immediatly to all active rules, and to all futur rules, until it is repealed. Any comments? Cheers, Corentin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Nomic game in Haskell
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:14:18PM +0200, Dupont Corentin wrote: Hello Café, do you know Nomic? It's a fabulous and strange game where you have the right to change the rules in the middle of the game! In fact, changing the rules is the goal of the game. Changing a rule is considered as a move. Of course even that could be changed! www.nomic.net I'm wondering if it could be possible to implement a Nomic (or an helper for the game) in Haskell. Haskell seems appropriate for that, since functions are first order objects, and Haskell is good at DSLs. I don't think you could actually implement Nomic in the way you describe, because any system you come up with will necessarily place restrictions on what sorts of rules you are able to represent. Much of the fun of Nomic lies in coming up with new rules that are completely outside the box. For example, how would you encode a rule like * Players must stand when proposing new rules. or * Rules which do not mention other rules shall remain in effect until such time as the mobile telephone of the Grand Counselor rings. You get the idea. However, implementing some sort of system for encoding certain types of rules, and checking that they are valid/consistent/etc. sounds like it could be a fun project from which you would probably learn a lot! Essentially, you would be designing a syntax for rules, and a type system for ensuring that rules are valid or used in valid ways. It wouldn't be Nomic, but it could be something fun. -Brent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Nomic game in Haskell
On Apr 14, 2010, at 19:24 , Brent Yorgey wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:14:18PM +0200, Dupont Corentin wrote: I'm wondering if it could be possible to implement a Nomic (or an helper for the game) in Haskell. Haskell seems appropriate for that, since functions are first order objects, and Haskell is good at DSLs. However, implementing some sort of system for encoding certain types of rules, and checking that they are valid/consistent/etc. sounds like it could be a fun project from which you would probably learn a lot! Essentially, you would be designing a syntax for rules, and a type system for ensuring that rules are valid or used in valid ways. It wouldn't be Nomic, but it could be something fun. You might want to look at Fluxx, which also allows rule changes but with a constrained framework that should allow it to be implemented. (Does, actually; someone (ndm?) used to have an implementation, but the link to it went dead years ago.) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
