Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Christopher Done wrote: I hadn't heard of httpd-shed. Will you add it to Servers? I think a page about HWS would also be good that shows the history of it and derived projects, if you feel like writing it! It's everything there: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_Web_Server I wonder, whether it was mentioned on the old Applications_and_Libraries/Web page - and where is this page, at all? I think we should maintain all the packages mentioned there, also if they are currently not up-to-date. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 6 October 2010 16:33, Henning Thielemann wrote: > How about mailing to the package maintainers in order to inform they, that > the Web application list on the Wiki has changed? I'm afraid not all authors > follow haskell-cafe or haskell-web. I could send out a bulk mail requesting authors to have a look and help out improve this part of the wiki. > httpd-shed seems to be missing in Servers. I also like to see HWS mentioned > in Servers as it is the ancestor of some Haskell Web Server projects > (WASH-wsp, MoHWS, and what was the name of the CGI thing?). For me the Wiki > is not only a place that describes cutting edge software but also a place to > help understand how things evolved. HWS is still interesting, because its > quite basic, so it's still a good start if you like to program your own > server. It is not necessary to be maintained in order to be interesting. I hadn't heard of httpd-shed. Will you add it to Servers? I think a page about HWS would also be good that shows the history of it and derived projects, if you feel like writing it! I also agree that even the simple examples like HWS are interesting, like CGI; I cleaned up the old CGI article: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Practical_web_programming_in_Haskell I condensed it visually, and updated links to be more within the wiki and separated, e.g. this page http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Literature/Static_linking because it's useful as a general idea and not focused on CGI specifically. It's definitely not my intention to discard useful information, just to make it more accessible and remove misleading data. Regarding the active/inactive, I think it's a good idea to separate what we know to be actively maintaned -- i.e., * what people are using, * what still has someone maintaining it, * what actually still *compiles*. Here's my reasoning, there are three uses of listing frameworks on the wiki: 1) People looking to survey what's currently available and stable -- i.e. what's alive? 2) People looking to try out Haskell web programming, who want something that they know will have some support and be current, therefore easy. 3) People who are serious about web development and want to survey the whole existing landscape. (1) and (2) don't care or want to have to sift through or waste time on libraries that don't work, or might not work. (3) has the motivation to sift through everything and they want to see the history of everything too. These people too will want to know what's current and working, I think. In this sense I think we are optimising access to the information. What do you think? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Christopher Done wrote: On 6 October 2010 14:16, Henning Thielemann If you think the re-structuring is necessary, then at least ask the maintainers, whether they still maintain their packages, or just sort the packages according to the degree of activity you assume, but stay away from categorizing the packages in "active" and "inactive" based on speculation. Okay, don't worry about it, I'll do it! Thank you! How about mailing to the package maintainers in order to inform they, that the Web application list on the Wiki has changed? I'm afraid not all authors follow haskell-cafe or haskell-web. httpd-shed seems to be missing in Servers. I also like to see HWS mentioned in Servers as it is the ancestor of some Haskell Web Server projects (WASH-wsp, MoHWS, and what was the name of the CGI thing?). For me the Wiki is not only a place that describes cutting edge software but also a place to help understand how things evolved. HWS is still interesting, because its quite basic, so it's still a good start if you like to program your own server. It is not necessary to be maintained in order to be interesting. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Henning Thielemann wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Christopher Done wrote: > >> On 6 October 2010 12:47, Henning Thielemann >> wrote: >>> >>> I for instance use http-shed and mohws all the time. They do what they >>> shall >>> do for me. I maintain mohws >> >> Please move the ones you use and maintain to the active list! > > I'm generally not glad that some people rearrange existing structure and > expect that all of the affected authors follow. It's already tedious to > catch up with the yearly changes in GHC's package and other base packages > (e.g. transformers recently), and annoying when people propose to mark > packages as "inactive" or "unmaintained" in Hackage whenever the package > authors did not update their packages so far (and certainly lose > compatibility to older 'base' versions this way). > I would be glad if there is no further action to be taken for package > authors, who added their packages somewhen in the past and don't see a > reason to regularly check whether their packages are still listed in the > Wiki, without being marked "inactive" or so. If you think the re-structuring > is necessary, then at least ask the maintainers, whether they still maintain > their packages, or just sort the packages according to the degree of > activity you assume, but stay away from categorizing the packages in > "active" and "inactive" based on speculation. I agree that it can be tedious to keep up with these changes, but the alternative is stagnation. Just a few years ago, I was in the place of the newbie staring at the wiki pages talking about all the wonderful ways of combining the CGI monad with fastcgi and xhtml and combinators, and something about monad transformer stacks (which I'd never even heard of). If I remember correctly, I gave up on Haskell for a month or so after the intimidation that kind of page introduces. Chris has done an amazing job here of cleaning up content and making it approachable by new users. I think that should be the main purpose of the wiki. If you want to have some documentation that no one else can edit, you can put it on your own site. That's what I've done for Yesod, and appears to be the approach of most of the other actively developed projects out there. It's true that in such a large reworking as Chris has undertaken there will be some accidental miscategorizations, but the alternate you mention (contacting each author before moving an article) is simply untenable: it's difficult to track people down sometimes, it takes a long time to get a response, etc. I'd much rather have a very clean looking wiki page that's missing a few packages than the jumble of confusion we had before hand. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 6 October 2010 14:16, Henning Thielemann wrote: > I'm generally not glad that some people rearrange existing structure and > expect that all of the affected authors follow. It's already tedious to > catch up with the yearly changes in GHC's package and other base packages > (e.g. transformers recently), and annoying when people propose to mark > packages as "inactive" or "unmaintained" in Hackage whenever the package > authors did not update their packages so far (and certainly lose > compatibility to older 'base' versions this way). > I would be glad if there is no further action to be taken for package > authors, who added their packages somewhen in the past and don't see a > reason to regularly check whether their packages are still listed in the > Wiki, without being marked "inactive" or so. If you think the re-structuring > is necessary, then at least ask the maintainers, whether they still maintain > their packages, or just sort the packages according to the degree of > activity you assume, but stay away from categorizing the packages in > "active" and "inactive" based on speculation. Okay, don't worry about it, I'll do it! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Christopher Done wrote: On 6 October 2010 12:47, Henning Thielemann wrote: I for instance use http-shed and mohws all the time. They do what they shall do for me. I maintain mohws Please move the ones you use and maintain to the active list! I'm generally not glad that some people rearrange existing structure and expect that all of the affected authors follow. It's already tedious to catch up with the yearly changes in GHC's package and other base packages (e.g. transformers recently), and annoying when people propose to mark packages as "inactive" or "unmaintained" in Hackage whenever the package authors did not update their packages so far (and certainly lose compatibility to older 'base' versions this way). I would be glad if there is no further action to be taken for package authors, who added their packages somewhen in the past and don't see a reason to regularly check whether their packages are still listed in the Wiki, without being marked "inactive" or so. If you think the re-structuring is necessary, then at least ask the maintainers, whether they still maintain their packages, or just sort the packages according to the degree of activity you assume, but stay away from categorizing the packages in "active" and "inactive" based on speculation. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 6 October 2010 12:47, Henning Thielemann wrote: > I for instance use http-shed and mohws all the time. They do what they shall > do for me. I maintain mohws Please move the ones you use and maintain to the active list! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 3 October 2010 17:41, Michael Snoyman wrote: > Well done, it all looks *very* nice. Regarding Yesod: yes, use the > cube for now, I may eventually make a better logo, but that's it for > the moment. Righteo. > The only concern I have is the "practical web programming > in Haskell" page, which frankly isn't very practical. I personally > would put a big fat warning at the top saying most people do not > recommend using straight CGI these days. Yeah, it's not the best. > One other possibility is putting together a tutorials section > (descending order by date) linking to various blog posts. There is the http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Literature labelled "Literature (research, talks and blogs)" section which contains blog posts, but perhaps a tutorial-centric page would be in order. Really we should link to a yesod, snap, happstack tutorial and cgi on the first page, I think. > But I think > you've done an amazing job on cleaning things up and getting it > presentable. A big thank you! Cheers! I'm looking forward to when the new Wiki version and template is rolled out. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Done wrote: > So I went through the Applications_and_libraries/Web_programming page > and pulled out any remaining goodness from it into pages under the > Web/ umbrella and then set it up as a redirect to Web/ > > I made an infobox which I put on every Web/ page, which makes it very > nice for navigating between the sections. > > I also added a tiny introduction to the main page. > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web > > I also updated the Practical Web Programming in Haskell tutorial to > remove irrelevant/out-dated references and links, updated some bits, > and generally improved the formatting so that it's not just a huge > chunk of headings and whitespace: > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Literature/Practical_web_programming_in_Haskell > > I think on the Web/ page we should have a "hot frameworks" or > something like that, listing Happstack, Yesod and Snap, preferably > with their logos. Do you have a logo for Yesod? I'm thinking of just > tastefully taking the cube. > Well done, it all looks *very* nice. Regarding Yesod: yes, use the cube for now, I may eventually make a better logo, but that's it for the moment. The only concern I have is the "practical web programming in Haskell" page, which frankly isn't very practical. I personally would put a big fat warning at the top saying most people do not recommend using straight CGI these days. One other possibility is putting together a tutorials section (descending order by date) linking to various blog posts. But I think you've done an amazing job on cleaning things up and getting it presentable. A big thank you! Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
So I went through the Applications_and_libraries/Web_programming page and pulled out any remaining goodness from it into pages under the Web/ umbrella and then set it up as a redirect to Web/ I made an infobox which I put on every Web/ page, which makes it very nice for navigating between the sections. I also added a tiny introduction to the main page. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web I also updated the Practical Web Programming in Haskell tutorial to remove irrelevant/out-dated references and links, updated some bits, and generally improved the formatting so that it's not just a huge chunk of headings and whitespace: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Literature/Practical_web_programming_in_Haskell I think on the Web/ page we should have a "hot frameworks" or something like that, listing Happstack, Yesod and Snap, preferably with their logos. Do you have a logo for Yesod? I'm thinking of just tastefully taking the cube. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
I just discovered this: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Performance/Strictness See the Haskell Performance Resource box? That's great! I'm going to make one for our Web articles. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 3 October 2010 12:31, Michael Snoyman wrote: > I think it's fair to say that turbinado is inactive. But keep in mind > that we should probably look at more than just the frameworks: > servers, templating, etc. Sure, it should be a general rule across the board. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Christopher Done wrote: > On 3 October 2010 12:10, Michael Snoyman wrote: >> I would actually do the opposite: we can put the libraries/frameworks >> that we are sure *are* active into the Active section and put >> everything else into Inactive. I have a feeling we'll be pretty close >> on the mark with our guesses; a quick look at the last upload date on >> Hackage should be sufficient. People are *much* more likely to move >> stuff from Inactive to Active than the other way around. >> >> We can also send out an email to the cafe/web-devel with a list of >> packages we plan to mark as inactive and see if anyone objects. If no >> one is willing to stand up for a package, odds are it's dead. > > That sounds like a good approach. Anyway, it's not the end of the > world if a package gets put in inactive. Ones I know are definitely > active are: > > Happstack > Haskell on a Horse > loli > Salvia > Snap > Yesod > Turbinado -- is this still active? Alson Kemp basically ditched Haskell, so... > Yesod > > The others... I don't know. > I think it's fair to say that turbinado is inactive. But keep in mind that we should probably look at more than just the frameworks: servers, templating, etc. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 3 October 2010 12:10, Michael Snoyman wrote: > I would actually do the opposite: we can put the libraries/frameworks > that we are sure *are* active into the Active section and put > everything else into Inactive. I have a feeling we'll be pretty close > on the mark with our guesses; a quick look at the last upload date on > Hackage should be sufficient. People are *much* more likely to move > stuff from Inactive to Active than the other way around. > > We can also send out an email to the cafe/web-devel with a list of > packages we plan to mark as inactive and see if anyone objects. If no > one is willing to stand up for a package, odds are it's dead. That sounds like a good approach. Anyway, it's not the end of the world if a package gets put in inactive. Ones I know are definitely active are: Happstack Haskell on a Horse loli Salvia Snap Yesod Turbinado -- is this still active? Alson Kemp basically ditched Haskell, so... Yesod The others... I don't know. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Christopher Done wrote: > On 3 October 2010 06:51, Michael Snoyman wrote: * Does pass.net still exist anywhere? Same for parallel web. >>> >>> I couldn't find any references to pass.net. >> >> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Existing_software > > I meant that I remember adding it, but I couldn't find any references > for it. I.e. it's dead. Maybe we can split that page by > active/inactive too. > >> I would recommend *not* qualifying the active/recommended stuff. Maybe >> "Frameworks" and "Frameworks/Inactive". I personally wouldn't want to >> group new, unevaluated code with inactive: I think we should give the >> new players the same publicity as the established products on the main >> page, but perhaps with a little label explaining how new/untested it >> is. > > Trouble is most on the Web/Frameworks page are still /available/ but > it's hard to see if they're "active" i.e. people are still using them, > or whether they're still build-able. Perhaps it would be best to > create the Frameworks/Inactive page and then at the top of the > Frameworks page say "Inactive frameworks are listed here." and then > when someone is definitely sure something is defunct they can move it. > Or what do we do? I would actually do the opposite: we can put the libraries/frameworks that we are sure *are* active into the Active section and put everything else into Inactive. I have a feeling we'll be pretty close on the mark with our guesses; a quick look at the last upload date on Hackage should be sufficient. People are *much* more likely to move stuff from Inactive to Active than the other way around. We can also send out an email to the cafe/web-devel with a list of packages we plan to mark as inactive and see if anyone objects. If no one is willing to stand up for a package, odds are it's dead. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 3 October 2010 06:51, Michael Snoyman wrote: >>> * Does pass.net still exist anywhere? Same for parallel web. >> >> I couldn't find any references to pass.net. > > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Existing_software I meant that I remember adding it, but I couldn't find any references for it. I.e. it's dead. Maybe we can split that page by active/inactive too. > I would recommend *not* qualifying the active/recommended stuff. Maybe > "Frameworks" and "Frameworks/Inactive". I personally wouldn't want to > group new, unevaluated code with inactive: I think we should give the > new players the same publicity as the established products on the main > page, but perhaps with a little label explaining how new/untested it > is. Trouble is most on the Web/Frameworks page are still /available/ but it's hard to see if they're "active" i.e. people are still using them, or whether they're still build-able. Perhaps it would be best to create the Frameworks/Inactive page and then at the top of the Frameworks page say "Inactive frameworks are listed here." and then when someone is definitely sure something is defunct they can move it. Or what do we do? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Christopher Done wrote: > On 2 October 2010 22:13, Michael Snoyman wrote: >> I understand the advantages to splitting into multiple pages, but on >> the other hand it *does* make it more difficult to locate information. > > It does? What's an example? I'll fix it. It was more of a general comment. When everything's on the same page, I can do ctrl-f "happ" and find information about all the pieces of happstack. As I said, I think a search function is a good replacement. >> My guess is a good search function on the wiki will make that point >> moot. > > Probably! > >> * Does pass.net still exist anywhere? Same for parallel web. > > I couldn't find any references to pass.net. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Existing_software >> * Should older, unmaintained stuff (Wash, for example) be removed >> entirely, placed on its own page or be obviously marked as >> unmaintained? > > Yes, I think so. There are a lot of frameworks on that page that are > just cluttering it up, most of them are unmaintained or don't really > have a big user-base. Perhaps we should split it to Active / > Recommended and Inactive / Unevaluated or something like that. If I > was looking for web frameworks I'd want to know which ones were > actively maintained and then *maybe* what other ones there are. It > could well be two pages. Frameworks/Active or Recommended_Frameworks > and then the other. I'm not sure. Thoughts, chaps? I would recommend *not* qualifying the active/recommended stuff. Maybe "Frameworks" and "Frameworks/Inactive". I personally wouldn't want to group new, unevaluated code with inactive: I think we should give the new players the same publicity as the established products on the main page, but perhaps with a little label explaining how new/untested it is. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On 2 October 2010 22:13, Michael Snoyman wrote: > I understand the advantages to splitting into multiple pages, but on > the other hand it *does* make it more difficult to locate information. It does? What's an example? I'll fix it. > My guess is a good search function on the wiki will make that point > moot. Probably! > * Does pass.net still exist anywhere? Same for parallel web. I couldn't find any references to pass.net. > * Should older, unmaintained stuff (Wash, for example) be removed > entirely, placed on its own page or be obviously marked as > unmaintained? Yes, I think so. There are a lot of frameworks on that page that are just cluttering it up, most of them are unmaintained or don't really have a big user-base. Perhaps we should split it to Active / Recommended and Inactive / Unevaluated or something like that. If I was looking for web frameworks I'd want to know which ones were actively maintained and then *maybe* what other ones there are. It could well be two pages. Frameworks/Active or Recommended_Frameworks and then the other. I'm not sure. Thoughts, chaps? On 2 October 2010 22:24, Gwern Branwen wrote: >> * Should we rename HAppS to Happstack everywhere? > > I think we should. No one is using the old HAppS code, so references > are just misleading. Agreed. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Michael Snoyman wrote: > I understand the advantages to splitting into multiple pages, but on > the other hand it *does* make it more difficult to locate information. > My guess is a good search function on the wiki will make that point > moot. Overall, looks like you've done a great job, thanks! A few minor > comments: > > * Should we rename HAppS to Happstack everywhere? I think we should. No one is using the old HAppS code, so references are just misleading. -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell web development entries on the Wiki
I understand the advantages to splitting into multiple pages, but on the other hand it *does* make it more difficult to locate information. My guess is a good search function on the wiki will make that point moot. Overall, looks like you've done a great job, thanks! A few minor comments: * Should we rename HAppS to Happstack everywhere? * Does pass.net still exist anywhere? Same for parallel web. * Should older, unmaintained stuff (Wash, for example) be removed entirely, placed on its own page or be obviously marked as unmaintained? Michael On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Christopher Done wrote: > Decided to move this to a separate thread. I went ahead and refactored > the wiki entries: > > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web > > Now we have the following Web/ sections: > > Servers > Frameworks > Interfaces to frameworks > Databases and Persistence > Libraries > Testing and Verification > Content Management > > and > > Forums and Discussion > Literature (research, talks and blogs) > Existing Haskell web applications > Ongoing projects and ideas > > And Web/Libraries has the following sections: > > URLs and Routing > Templating > Sessions and Authentication > CGI > Forms > JavaScript and AJAX > CSS > > I will add all these pages to the Web category, but not yet, I want to > get rid of this page: > http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/?title=Applications_and_libraries/Web_programming > > I've nearly finished moving all of it to organised sections in this > new hierarchy. The advantage of doing this is that I have to manually > check each thing listed and I discover that quite a few are dead links > and no longer maintained. > > Ideally this page http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Web/Frameworks > would have a list of all actually active web projects, and those would > be listed at the top, or perhaps there should be another page > Web/Frameworks/Active or whatnot. > > Anyone care to help take this page apart Applications and > libraries/Web programming and move it to reasonable pages? > > Thoughts? > ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
