[Haskell-cafe] Re: Visual Programming Languages

2005-01-26 Thread Stijn De Saeger
 This was odd...
 
 Some cherry-picked quotes from the manifesto:
   http://alarmingdevelopment.org/index.php?p=5
 
  - Visual languages are not the solution: ... common idea is to replace AST
 structures with some form of graphical diagram. ...
 
  - Programming is not Mathematics
 
  - Change is natural: There has been much effort expended to remove the
 concept of mutable state from programming, to be replaced by immutable
 values as in mathematics. This is entirely misguided. ... Monads are a
 reductio ad absurdum.  [ Heresy! :-) ]
 
  - Control flow considered harmful:  ... The primary reason for this is to
 permit side-effects to be ordered by the programmer. ... [ This appears to
 contradict the criticism of monads. ]
 
 But then the demo shows us how to define a Factorial function using an
 editor that (AFAICT) is simply operating on AST structures, in a
 tree-oriented layout. I must be missing something.
 
 Alistair.

Yes, it is a bit of a twist. I came across this thing a couple of days
ago on the LtU blog, and somehow thought it relevant to the issue of
visual programming. I'm curious why the author himself doesn't
consider this to be a visual programming language, considering that
the language only allows you to program by copying and pasting.

stijn.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Visual Programming Languages

2005-01-26 Thread Keean Schupke
Hmm, can't resist commenting on this one!
Bayley, Alistair wrote:
This was odd...
Some cherry-picked quotes from the manifesto:
 http://alarmingdevelopment.org/index.php?p=5
- Visual languages are not the solution: ... common idea is to replace AST
structures with some form of graphical diagram. ...
 

Agree, point and grunt is much slower than entering commands. Its like 
being stuck in a country where you don't speak the language - all you 
can do is point at things and grunt ('click') and hope they understand you.

- Programming is not Mathematics
 

Disagree strongly... Bad programming seems to have little to do with 
mathematics, good programming often has the elegance of a well thought 
out proof. Beauty in programming is like beauty in mathematics.

- Change is natural: There has been much effort expended to remove the
concept of mutable state from programming, to be replaced by immutable
values as in mathematics. This is entirely misguided. ... Monads are a
reductio ad absurdum.  [ Heresy! :-) ]
 

Change is natural, but that has nothing to do with mutable state.
Parallelism will make mutable state less attractive, as will
hardware/software co-design. Isolating changes within a verifiable
sandbox (like the ST/State monads) reduces errors due to unforseen
interactions.
- Control flow considered harmful:  ... The primary reason for this is to
permit side-effects to be ordered by the programmer. ... [ This appears to
contradict the criticism of monads. ]
 

Agree - control flow causes the possible paths (or corner cases) in the
program to increase exponentially. Program correctness verification becomes
much harder with more possible-paths.
   Keean.
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