[Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
Now, something really à côté de la plaque... Jack Henahan terminates his useful advice addressed to A. Coppin: Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- Edsger Dijkstra This citation makes me think, and since this became rare, I share it. * It is unsourced, repeated without discernment, and Dijkstra cannot confirm (or deny) it any more. Somehow I cannot believe he said that... * Dijkstra began to study physics, and a physicist would be reluctant to make such puns. Why? o Astronomy, and physics are not only theories of galaxies or superfluids, but also methodologies of data acquisition and data processing. Telescopes evolve with our knowledge of the visible universe, as the accelerators evolve with our knowledge of elementary particles. You have to know where to look! And how to interpret the raw, experimental data. o So, whether you call it Informatique, Datalogi, or whatever, it is */also/* about computers. Do you really think that the algorithmics, the thory of parallel computation, etc., have nothing to do with concrete implementations? * These among you who touched just a bit of astronomy, should know what a horrendous amount of truly astronomical knowledge is necessary to make the telescope work! For example to synchronize it with the earth movement... * This citation seems to be a savant variant of: The Fool Looks At The Finger That Points To The Sky case... OK, if you wish. But I had an occasion to sit near a beautiful girl who pointed her hand and her eyes in the direction of wonderful Zodiac constellations; it was midnight in the mountains. I don't remember the details, but without being a fool, I didn't look at the stars... (Well, actually I was a fool, but it is a long story). Jerzy Karczmarczuk Caen, France ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
Wherever its origin, it is featured in SICP which was out in 1984: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQLUPjefuWA It's a sound analogy. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote: It is unsourced, repeated without discernment, and Dijkstra cannot confirm (or deny) it any more. Somehow I cannot believe he said that... Dijkstra began to study physics, and a physicist would be reluctant to make such puns. Why? Some googling takes me to the full quote: Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes, biology is about microscopes, or chemistry is about beakers and test tubes. Science is not about tools. It is about how we use them, and what we find out when we do. Which is referenced to, inside _Invitation to Computer Science_ (G. Michael Schneider, Judith L. Gersting, Keith Miller; http://books.google.com/books?id=gQK0pJONyhgC ), to Fellows, M.R., and Parberry, I. Getting Children Excited About Computer Science, _Computing Research News_, vol. 5, no. 1 (January 1993). Curiously, the preface to the quote is: This distinction between computers and computer science is beautifully expressed by computer scientists Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry in an article in the journal _Computing Research News_: *No* mention of Dijkstra. Searching that full book, the only Dijkstra mentions are unconnected to the quote. Chasing links, I head to http://archive.cra.org/CRN/issues/by_title_by_issue.html and download January 1993: http://archive.cra.org/CRN/issues/9301.pdf On page 7, I find it. The article title is different: SIGACT trying to get children excited about CS. The money line is highlighted. The relevant paragraph and surrounding paragraphs: Is it any wonder then that computer science is represented in many schools by either computer games or some antiquated approach to programming, which at worst concentrates on a litany of syntax and at best emphasizes expediency over effectiveness and efficiency? But computer science is not about computers—it is about computation. What would we like our children- the general public of the future—to learn about computer science in schools? We need to do away with the myth that computer science is about computers. Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes, biology is about microscopes or chemistry is about beakers and test tubes. Science is not about tools, it is about how we use them and what we find out when we do. It may come as a surprise to some that computer science is full of activities that children still find exciting even without the use of computers. Take theoretical computer science, for example, which may seem an unlikely candidate. If computer science is underrepresented in schools, then theoretical computer science is doubly so. This is the precise quote, with no quotation marks or references or allusions of any kind; this seems to be the original, where the exact quote comes from. There are no mentions whatsoever of Dijkstra in the January PDF. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: Wherever its origin, it is featured in SICP which was out in 1984: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQLUPjefuWA It's a sound analogy. Abelson doesn't cite Dijkstra in the first minute where he makes the comparisons, either, unless I missed it. As well, in no Google hit did I find any specific citation to Dijkstra. Hence, I conclude that because it is insightful and sounds like Dijkstra (eg. his submarine quote), it has become apocryphally associated with him but is *not* actually a Dijkstra quote. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
Better? Jack Henahan jhena...@uvm.edu == Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes…. -- Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry == 398E692F.gpg Description: application/apple-msg-attachment On Aug 29, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
In fairness, I already knew it wasn't an actual Dijkstra quote. It's just one that gets thrown around with his name on it. The origins were misty enough that I just decided to pick the one that pop culture chose. Jack Henahan jhena...@uvm.edu == Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes…. -- Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry == 398E692F.gpg Description: application/apple-msg-attachment On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:08 PM, Jack Henahan wrote: Better? Jack Henahan jhena...@uvm.edu == Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes…. -- Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry == 398E692F.gpg On Aug 29, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
I'm afraid you're going to have a lot of OCD's completely miss the point of your email and annoy you with comments about the quote which you'll then have to refute. I'd actually stick with the old comment, remove it completely, include a short summary with a link to the paper or attribute it to Abe Lincoln. -deech On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Jack Henahan jhena...@uvm.edu wrote: Better? Jack Henahan jhena...@uvm.edu == Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes…. -- Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry == On Aug 29, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: Michael R. Fellows and Ian Parberry ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:18 PM, aditya siram aditya.si...@gmail.com wrote: I'm afraid you're going to have a lot of OCD's completely miss the point of your email and annoy you with comments about the quote which you'll then have to refute. I dunno, I found the quote interesting. I had typed up a scornful response to the effect that everyone knows it's a Dijkstra quote and he could find sourcing in seconds with Google, but as the seconds passed, I had to rewrite the seconds bit, then as I found actual cites, I had to rewrite the Dijkstra bit, and then I realized that replying to that email might take a while... -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Truly Really Off-topic: (Was: Mathematics)
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com wrote: As well, in no Google hit did I find any specific citation to Dijkstra. Hence, I conclude that because it is insightful and sounds like Dijkstra (eg. his submarine quote), it has become apocryphally associated with him but is *not* actually a Dijkstra quote. To follow up: - 'telescopes' does not appear anywhere in the EWDs: http://ewd.cs.utexas.edu.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0q=telescopesxsubmit=Searchs=SS - Ruud Koot points to an August* 1993 PhD thesis (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.53.8045rep=rep1type=pdf) which attributes it, with no citation or sourcing information, to Dijkstra - a Redditor claims, with no citation or sourcing information, that it was Marvin Minsky (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/jy1zw/psa_dijkstra_did_not_say_computer_science_is_no/c2g17xt) * that is, well after the original January 1993 article -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
