Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
I think there are two reasons to browse the hackage database. First reason reflects the common need to find a library that suites one's needs. In this case it's very easy to find it with google adding hackage haskell to the submitted word list. Second reason is to have a nice landscape of packages when one enters the site. For the second reason, which is real browsing, categories are a pain, whoever and however they are done. The more they are correct , the more they are difficult to understand. The more they are easy like tags the more it's difficult to put them in a hierarchy. One well known solution is to put tags in a high dimensional space where the tag names and distance between tags is defined by statistics on the tags cloud of each tag holder (packages). In this case browsing is jumping from one tag to another *near* one in the tag space and see the packages *around* , while inserting new packages changes the position of the tags in their space. An easiest , but somewhat wrong, solution is give each tag a dimension and have the packages in the space to browse. Ontologies are more on formalising the meaning (seen as interrelations) of concepts, which tags are not, and I don't think even software categories are. But this is really debatable. my 2 cents paolino 2011/6/5 Evan Laforge qdun...@gmail.com On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: tl;dr: I don't think ontologies are suitable for Hackage. I think I agree. For instance, I just uploaded fix-imports and had to decide which categories it is in. It manages imports, which is IDE-like and people looking for IDE-like features might be interested, so IDE. It's concerned with haskell itself, so Haskell. And it's meant to be used with an editor, though it isn't an editor itself, so Editor. It's actually none of those things, but there's no specific category for it, and if there were I think it would be too small to be useful. So I picked things I think people who might be interested in it would be searching for. I don't think a hierarchy would have helped in this case, but tags would be appropriate. Actually, I wound up using the categories like tags. I think we just need better search, e.g. +tag +tag or something. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On 05/06/2011 06:55 AM, Evan Laforge wrote: I don't think a hierarchy would have helped in this case, but tags would be appropriate. Actually, I wound up using the categories like tags. I think we just need better search, e.g. +tag +tag or something. +1 to all of the above. Also, I don't think listing every package on all of Hackage in one giant page is very useful any more. (I gather it was only meant to be a temporary interface in the first place...) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 07:51, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: Also, I don't think listing every package on all of Hackage in one giant page is very useful any more. (I gather it was only meant to be a temporary interface in the first place...) +1 (really +(foldl' (+) (repeat 1))...) — Hackage is *painful* these days. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Brandon Allbery allber...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 07:51, Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: Also, I don't think listing every package on all of Hackage in one giant page is very useful any more. (I gather it was only meant to be a temporary interface in the first place...) +1 (really +(foldl' (+) (repeat 1))...) — Hackage is *painful* these days. http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe i havn't a fscking clue how to implement such a beast, but i've seen (somewhere) tags that have their own heirarchy, so you could have (for instance) Image Stuff -2D -3D -Fractal -...etc... and also having multiple tags would help classify things, like a 3D Fractal renderer would be under Image Stuff - 3D Image Stuff - Fractal and probably even under Math Stuff (yeah, i know you *love* my technical names :P ) just my 0.02 cents hex -- Other than the fact Linux has a cool name, could someone explain why I should use Linux over BSD? No. That's it. The cool name, that is. We worked very hard on creating a name that would appeal to the majority of people, and it certainly paid off: thousands of people are using linux just to be able to say OS/2? Hah. I've got Linux. What a cool name. 386BSD made the mistake of putting a lot of numbers and weird abbreviations into the name, and is scaring away a lot of people just because it sounds too technical. -- Linus Torvalds' follow-up to a question about Linux ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
2011/6/4 Tillmann Vogt tillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de: Hi, There are some categories on Hackage that have become so large that it is hard to find something, i.e. Data(414 packages) and Graphics (191). Thats why I suggest to use subcategories separated from the category with a dot. To show that this makes sense I made subcategories for graphics libraries at the end of this email. Whatever happens to hackage2 this would be an immediate improvement. How -- I would volunteer for the manual categorization and let the community look over it. I could upload the changes with a script but the version number has to increase even if only the category has changed. I also don't want to be responsible for a massive spike in the upload statistics. Shouldn't the cabal file be excluded from the versioning policy? = It is allowed to upload a library with the same version number if only the cabal file has changed. One should write a notifiaction mail to all owners to reply if they don't agree. Then after a week executing the script that applies the changes. [snip] Hi, I would simply prefer tags. Actually, there is a problem that becomes even worse in your proposal: packages appearing in multiple categories, and packages not appearing in some expected category. A simple example in your proposed categories: HDRUtils library: should it be in 2d, RasterFormats, or maybe in 2dFormats, ... with tags, 2d, raster, format, can be used, but also hdr, image, etc. I don't remember what was proposed for hackage 2. Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
Why not hierarchical tags? (Tags organized in directories, well, basically, tags with slashes or dots) This is the most flexible IMHO. 2011/6/4 Vo Minh Thu not...@gmail.com 2011/6/4 Tillmann Vogt tillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de: Hi, There are some categories on Hackage that have become so large that it is hard to find something, i.e. Data(414 packages) and Graphics (191). Thats why I suggest to use subcategories separated from the category with a dot. To show that this makes sense I made subcategories for graphics libraries at the end of this email. Whatever happens to hackage2 this would be an immediate improvement. How -- I would volunteer for the manual categorization and let the community look over it. I could upload the changes with a script but the version number has to increase even if only the category has changed. I also don't want to be responsible for a massive spike in the upload statistics. Shouldn't the cabal file be excluded from the versioning policy? = It is allowed to upload a library with the same version number if only the cabal file has changed. One should write a notifiaction mail to all owners to reply if they don't agree. Then after a week executing the script that applies the changes. [snip] Hi, I would simply prefer tags. Actually, there is a problem that becomes even worse in your proposal: packages appearing in multiple categories, and packages not appearing in some expected category. A simple example in your proposed categories: HDRUtils library: should it be in 2d, RasterFormats, or maybe in 2dFormats, ... with tags, 2d, raster, format, can be used, but also hdr, image, etc. I don't remember what was proposed for hackage 2. Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
Am 04.06.2011 11:08, schrieb Vo Minh Thu: 2011/6/4 Tillmann Vogttillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de: Hi, There are some categories on Hackage that have become so large that it is hard to find something, i.e. Data(414 packages) and Graphics (191). Thats why I suggest to use subcategories separated from the category with a dot. To show that this makes sense I made subcategories for graphics libraries at the end of this email. Whatever happens to hackage2 this would be an immediate improvement. How -- I would volunteer for the manual categorization and let the community look over it. I could upload the changes with a script but the version number has to increase even if only the category has changed. I also don't want to be responsible for a massive spike in the upload statistics. Shouldn't the cabal file be excluded from the versioning policy? = It is allowed to upload a library with the same version number if only the cabal file has changed. One should write a notifiaction mail to all owners to reply if they don't agree. Then after a week executing the script that applies the changes. [snip] Hi, I would simply prefer tags. Actually, there is a problem that becomes even worse in your proposal: packages appearing in multiple categories, and packages not appearing in some expected category. Well, what is the difference between a tag and a category? The second sounds more mathematical. A sub tag or a sub category is better because some categories have clearly a sub relation. I.e. I cannot imagine 2d-image-formats to be part of some other category than graphics. But generally I agree that more tags are also a solution, but how to display this without increasing the page size. So I think in the end it is tradeoff between display size and reasonable narrowing of where a category can belong. A simple example in your proposed categories: HDRUtils library: should it be in 2d, RasterFormats, or maybe in 2dFormats, ... with tags, 2d, raster, format, can be used, but also hdr, image, etc. I don't mean that a library should appear in only one (sub-)category, HDRUtils may appear in all the categories you mention. but if someone wants to know what raster image formats are supported he immediately finds it ind RasterFormats. I don't remember what was proposed for hackage 2. Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On 4 June 2011 10:42, Tillmann Vogt tillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de wrote: Well, what is the difference between a tag and a category? The second sounds more mathematical. Although it doesn't exist (yet), tags would support a filtering view. As for categories, I'll be the first to play the joker and mention the essay Ontology is overrated... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Tillmann Vogt tillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de wrote: Hi, There are some categories on Hackage that have become so large that it is hard to find something, i.e. Data(414 packages) and Graphics (191). Thats why I suggest to use subcategories separated from the category with a dot. To show that this makes sense I made subcategories for graphics libraries at the end of this email. Whatever happens to hackage2 this would be an immediate improvement. How -- I would volunteer for the manual categorization and let the community look over it. I could upload the changes with a script but the version number has to increase even if only the category has changed. I also don't want to be responsible for a massive spike in the upload statistics. Shouldn't the cabal file be excluded from the versioning policy? = It is allowed to upload a library with the same version number if only the cabal file has changed. One should write a notifiaction mail to all owners to reply if they don't agree. Then after a week executing the script that applies the changes. Categories for Graphics: Graphics.2d bacteria program: braindead utility to compose Xinerama backgrounds barchart library and program: Creating Bar Charts in Haskell chalkboard library and programs: Combinators for building and processing 2D images. chalkboard-viewer library: OpenGL based viewer for chalkboard rendered images. Chart library: A library for generating 2D Charts and Plots dia-base library: An EDSL for teaching Haskell with diagrams - data types dia-functions library: An EDSL for teaching Haskell with diagrams - functions diagrams library: Embedded domain-specific language for declarative vector graphics diagrams-cairo library: Cairo backend for diagrams drawing EDSL diagrams-core library: Core libraries for diagrams EDSL diagrams-lib library: Embedded domain-specific language for declarative graphics explore program: Experimental Plot data Reconstructor funcmp library: Functional MetaPost gloss library: Painless 2D vector graphics, animations and simulations. gloss-examples programs: Examples using the gloss library GoogleChart library: Generate web-based charts using the Google Chart API graphics-drawingcombinators library: A functional interface to 2D drawing in OpenGL haha library and program: A simple library for creating animated ascii art on ANSI terminals. HDRUtils library: Utilities for reading, manipulating, and writing HDR images hevolisa program: Genetic Mona Lisa problem in Haskell hevolisa-dph program: Genetic Mona Lisa problem in Haskell - using Data Parallel Haskell Hieroglyph library: Purely functional 2D graphics for visualization. HPlot library and program: A minimal monadic PLplot interface for Haskell hs-captcha library: Generate images suitable for use as CAPTCHAs in online web-form security. hs-gchart library: Haskell wrapper for the Google Chart API hsparklines library: Sparklines for Haskell internetmarke program: Shell command for constructing custom stamps for German Post plot library: A plotting library, exportable as eps/pdf/svg/png or renderable with gtk plot-gtk library: GTK plots and interaction with GHCi printxosd program: Simple tool to display some text on an on-screen display scaleimage program: Scale an image to a new geometry testpattern program: Display a monitor test pattern wumpus-basic library: Basic objects and system code built on Wumpus-Core. wumpus-core library: Pure Haskell PostScript and SVG generation. wumpus-drawing library: High-level drawing objects built on Wumpus-Basic. wumpus-microprint library: Microprints - greek-text pictures. wumpus-tree library: Drawing trees zsh-battery program: Ascii bars representing battery status Graphics.3d Attrac program: Visualisation of Strange Attractors in 3-Dimensions cal3d library: Haskell binding to the Cal3D animation library. cal3d-examples programs: Examples for the Cal3d animation library. cal3d-opengl library: OpenGL rendering for the Cal3D animation library FieldTrip library: Functional 3D gnuplot library and program: 2D and 3D plots using gnuplot HGL library: A simple graphics library based on X11 or Win32 hgl-example program: Various animations generated using HGL IcoGrid library: Library for generating grids of hexagons and pentagons mapped to a sphere. nymphaea program: An interactive GUI for manipulating L-systems reactive-fieldtrip library: Connect Reactive and FieldTrip reactive-glut library: Connects Reactive and GLUT Graphics.Fractal fractal program: Draw Newton, Julia and Mandelbrot fractals gmndl program: Mandelbrot Set explorer using GTK hfractal program: OpenGL fractal renderer mandulia program: A zooming visualisation of the Mandelbrot Set as many Julia Sets.
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
Am 04.06.2011 15:00, schrieb Sebastian Fischer: http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html I think I have read that article a long time ago. I just looked at it again. Very lengthy but true. In the middle there is a section when ontologies work well and ... it all applies to Hackage. When Does Ontological Classification Work Well? Domain to be Organized Small corpus 3k libraries is nothing compared to the whole web (referring to the yahoo example), or every book on earth Formal categories already exist, just need some improvement Stable entities Haskell is a mathematical language, and if there is one thing that will never change then it is math Restricted entities access only after personal email Clear edges ? Participants Expert catalogers Maybe the best educated programmers in the world Authoritative source of judgment Maybe Coordinated users It could be better Expert usersmostly ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Tillmann Vogt tillmann.v...@rwth-aachen.de wrote: Formal categories already exist, just need some improvement I don't see how the categories we have are near formal categories, but I digress. Stable entities Haskell is a mathematical language, and if there is one thing that will never change then it is math I also can't see this so clearly. It is like saying that books are just letters on paper, and nothing will change that. What we need to categorize is what is being done with Haskell, not Haskell itself. Restricted entities access only after personal email We have the opposite, any one can upload a library to Hackage and I don't think anyone wants to change that. Clear edges ? See his example, where he says that there are no blended elements. A Haskell library may have characteristics from two or more different categories. Expert catalogers Maybe the best educated programmers in the world We don't have any catalogers at all! =( Authoritative source of judgment Maybe We also don't have an authoritative source of judgement, but that is something easier to change. Coordinated users It could be better There is almost no coordination at all. Expert users mostly Yes, mostly, I agree =). tl;dr: I don't think ontologies are suitable for Hackage. Cheers! -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On 6/4/11 9:41 AM, Tillmann Vogt wrote: Am 04.06.2011 15:00, schrieb Sebastian Fischer: http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html I think I have read that article a long time ago. I just looked at it again. Very lengthy but true. In the middle there is a section when ontologies work well and ... it all applies to Hackage. I'm not so sure of that. When Does Ontological Classification Work Well? Domain to be Organized Small corpus3k libraries is nothing compared to the whole web (referring to the yahoo example), or every book on earth Sure, it's small by library standards; but then again, libraries have curators. Libraries don't have to deal with everyone just filling out their own metadata when donating a book to the library. In comparison to others corpora of its kind, Hackage is of middling size and still growing. The relevant corpora here are things like CPAN, CTAN, CRAN and the like; not the whole internet, nor even a university library. Formal categoriesalready exist, just need some improvement The categories aren't formal. Formal categorization means things like the names of biological species or the various constructs of abstract algebra, things which have a fixed and definite definition. Even the ontology of biology suffered a major upset over the last two decades as genetic sequencing demonstrated that the previous organization of species was woefully wrong. When is something a 2D graphics library vs a 3D library? What about all the shades in between, all the various options like depth parallax, pseudo-3D, fixed perspective, sprites on 3D backgrounds,... before you enter true 3D rendering? Something like the raster category may be a bit more formal, but even with my feeble knowledge of graphics I know that graphics as a whole is a mish mash of differing things and not a formally specified domain. Stable entitiesHaskell is a mathematical language, and if there is one thing that will never change then it is math Haskell is quite mathematical, but mathematics have shifted and changed dramatically over the years. Math changes all the time. Programming libraries and projects even moreso. Goals and directions change all the time. What began as a project in category A could easily shift to become focused on category B. Restricted entitiesaccess only after personal email What Clay means here is things like a library that only deals in bound volume books, as opposed to dealing also in other literary media (papyrus, velum,...) or in non-literary media (music, video,...). This does describe Hackage pretty well though. It's only for software, and only for software written in (or for) Haskell. While that's still a very broad domain, at least all the entities in it are of the same kind. Clear edges ? Participants Expert catalogersMaybe the best educated programmers in the world Even if we are the best educated, I doubt there are very many Haskellers with expert-level experience in cataloging. How many of us work as librarians, ontologists, or other professions in charge of organizing and curating data? There are a few, I'm sure. Some work in databases, and some do annotation work (e.g., the NLPers), but the average Haskeller is not an expert cataloger. And I'm sure the experts are too busy to have all of Hackage foisted upon them. Authoritative source of judgmentMaybe Hackage has no Benevolent Dictator For Life (that I'm aware of). -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories on Hackage
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: tl;dr: I don't think ontologies are suitable for Hackage. I think I agree. For instance, I just uploaded fix-imports and had to decide which categories it is in. It manages imports, which is IDE-like and people looking for IDE-like features might be interested, so IDE. It's concerned with haskell itself, so Haskell. And it's meant to be used with an editor, though it isn't an editor itself, so Editor. It's actually none of those things, but there's no specific category for it, and if there were I think it would be too small to be useful. So I picked things I think people who might be interested in it would be searching for. I don't think a hierarchy would have helped in this case, but tags would be appropriate. Actually, I wound up using the categories like tags. I think we just need better search, e.g. +tag +tag or something. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories in Hackage
Perhaps, this is madness, but I wanted to read other opinions on this topic. Packages already have multiple tags, right? So how about a search box that uses ANDed tags (in addition to description etc), and a browsing interface where you can see tags of packages matching the current search, and click on one to AND it into the search? That might be easier than trying to fit everything into one hierarchy. Some packages can go in more than one place. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories in Hackage
On 13 September 2010 11:37, Evan Laforge qdun...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps, this is madness, but I wanted to read other opinions on this topic. Packages already have multiple tags, right? So how about a search box that uses ANDed tags (in addition to description etc), and a browsing interface where you can see tags of packages matching the current search, and click on one to AND it into the search? That might be easier than trying to fit everything into one hierarchy. Some packages can go in more than one place. Perhaps a better statement of what each tag actually represents so that people can better choose which tags fit their package. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Subcategories in Hackage
El Lun, 13 de Septiembre de 2010, 3:37 am, Evan Laforge escribió: That might be easier than trying to fit everything into one hierarchy. Some packages can go in more than one place. I have not contradicted that. A package can go somewhere. For example: CAT. A * SUBCAT. A1 ** Pack. 1 * SUBCAT. A2 ** Pack. 2 ** Pack. 3 CAT. B * SUBCAT. B1 ** Pack. 4 ** Pack. 3 * SUBCAT. B2 ** Pack. 1 ** Pack. 5 Thanks for the opinion. -- Daniel Díaz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
