Re: Helium II

[Philippa Cowderoy]

Good to know!

It's important to keep morale up and do what we can. I imagine that'll 
be small details in my case, but there's meaningful modernisation to be 
done even if major type system features are still too difficult to 
standardise just yet.


On 03/12/2018 21:23, Carter Schonwald wrote:
i'm slowly prepping some stuff for ghc and the committee, though i 
can't say about the general action. I do think some stuff i've got 
planned should make its way in, i cant speak for other folks etc etc


On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:54 AM Anthony Clayden 
mailto:anthony_clay...@clear.net.nz>> 
wrote:


On /Thu Nov 29 15:00:19 UTC 2018, Doug McIlroy wrote:/

> >/Frankly after you've filtered out all that, I'd be astonished
if you//have anything left. It seems to be usual practice on
Hackage to switch//on a swag of LANGUAGE pragmas even if this
module isn't using them./

>>/(MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts in particular.)/
> A depressing remark, which comes close to saying
> there is no true Haskell.
? There wasn't a true Haskell in 1998. Already Hugs (in HugsMode)
and GHC (with glasgow-extns) had MPTCs,
FlexibleInstances/Contexts, FunDeps, UndecidableInstances.
Overlapping instances was optional extra.
> It's one reasonI hang mostly with Hugs.
Interesting. Does that mean Hugs98? How on earth do you manage
without at least some of the above?
> GHC pretty well repudiates Haskell 2010.
So does Hugs (in HugsMode): a large proportion of the extra
features in H2010 were suggested by the Hugs teams; and Hugs 2006
was already far advanced beyond it.
> May Haskell 2020 receive more respect!
I think you'll need to adjust your expectations: I doubt H2020
will happen. There was a glimmer of activity last month, but this
list has resumed its moribund state. So I think we can put last
month down to dead cat bounce. If H2020 does happen, HugsMode will
still be well ahead of whatever gets added.
AntC

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Re: Helium II

[Carter Schonwald]

i'm slowly prepping some stuff for ghc and the committee, though i can't
say about the general action. I do think some stuff i've got planned should
make its way in, i cant speak for other folks etc etc

On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:54 AM Anthony Clayden <
anthony_clay...@clear.net.nz> wrote:

> On *Thu Nov 29 15:00:19 UTC 2018, Doug McIlroy wrote:*
>
> > >* Frankly after you've filtered out all that, I'd be astonished if you**
> have anything left. It seems to be usual practice on Hackage to switch**
> on a swag of LANGUAGE pragmas even if this module isn't using them.*
>
> >>* (MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts in particular.)*
>
> > A depressing remark, which comes close to saying
> > there is no true Haskell.
>
> ? There wasn't a true Haskell in 1998. Already Hugs (in HugsMode) and GHC 
> (with glasgow-extns) had MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts, FunDeps, 
> UndecidableInstances. Overlapping instances was optional extra.
>
> > It's one reason I hang mostly with Hugs.
>
> Interesting. Does that mean Hugs98? How on earth do you manage without at 
> least some of the above?
>
> > GHC pretty well repudiates Haskell 2010.
>
> So does Hugs (in HugsMode): a large proportion of the extra features in H2010 
> were suggested by the Hugs teams; and Hugs 2006 was already far advanced 
> beyond it.
>
>
> > May Haskell 2020 receive more respect!
>
> I think you'll need to adjust your expectations: I doubt H2020 will happen. 
> There was a glimmer of activity last month, but this list has resumed its 
> moribund state. So I think we can put last month down to dead cat bounce. If 
> H2020 does happen, HugsMode will still be well ahead of whatever gets added.
>
>
> AntC
>
> ___
> Haskell-prime mailing list
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Re: Helium II

[Anthony Clayden]

On *Thu Nov 29 15:00:19 UTC 2018, Doug McIlroy wrote:*

> >* Frankly after you've filtered out all that, I'd be astonished if you**
have anything left. It seems to be usual practice on Hackage to switch** on
a swag of LANGUAGE pragmas even if this module isn't using them.*

>>* (MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts in particular.)*

> A depressing remark, which comes close to saying
> there is no true Haskell.

? There wasn't a true Haskell in 1998. Already Hugs (in HugsMode) and
GHC (with glasgow-extns) had MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts,
FunDeps, UndecidableInstances. Overlapping instances was optional
extra.

> It's one reason I hang mostly with Hugs.

Interesting. Does that mean Hugs98? How on earth do you manage without
at least some of the above?

> GHC pretty well repudiates Haskell 2010.

So does Hugs (in HugsMode): a large proportion of the extra features
in H2010 were suggested by the Hugs teams; and Hugs 2006 was already
far advanced beyond it.


> May Haskell 2020 receive more respect!

I think you'll need to adjust your expectations: I doubt H2020 will
happen. There was a glimmer of activity last month, but this list has
resumed its moribund state. So I think we can put last month down to
dead cat bounce. If H2020 does happen, HugsMode will still be well
ahead of whatever gets added.


AntC
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Re: Helium II

[Anthony Clayden]

*On 2018-11-28 14:03:30 UTC, **Mario Blažević wrote:*

>> On 2018-11-28 2:17 a.m., Jurriaan Hage wrote:
>
>>*  do we actually have something like an extensive set of tests*
>>* to throw at any Haskell 2010 compliant compiler that would help find 
>>mistakes on our parr?*


> If you want to be really thorough:
>
> 1. start with all of Hackage,
>
> 2. filter out all packages with the extensions: field in the cabal file,
>
> 3. filter out all modules with the {-# LANGUAGE ... #-} pragma,
>
> 4. recursively filter out all modules that import any filtered-out module,
>
> 5. you're left with a large set of pure Haskell 2010 modules.

At 3.b. also filter out anything with inline pragmas like {-#
OVERLAPS/PING/ABLE, INCOHERENT #-}. Note that GHC allows "the
possibility" of instances to overlap even without any flags/pragmas
set. It's only if you try to use them that it starts insisting on
pragmas. Whereas the H2010 standard is clear that overlaps are not
allowed.

What about anything that relies on the FTP changes to Prelude? Has
Juriaan's team upgraded their Prelude?

Frankly after you've filtered out all that, I'd be astonished if you
have anything left. It seems to be usual practice on Hackage to switch
on a swag of LANGUAGE pragmas even if this module isn't using them.
(MPTCs, FlexibleInstances/Contexts in particular.)


AntC
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Re: Helium II

[Mario Blažević]

On 2018-11-28 2:17 a.m., Jurriaan Hage wrote:

Dear all,

We’ve been active since September making the Helium compiler more Haskell 2010 
compliant.
In particular, we have a branch with support for Haskell 2010 type classes, a 
branch that
supports import/export following the standard, and a branch that compiles to 
LLVM instead
of the `old’ Helium-specific LVM that has become harder and harder to maintain.
These still need to be integrated. When I find time for that is hard to say.

Another project will be taking place in the period Feb-Apr and I expect we can 
tie up a lot of
loose ends then. Current loose ends include newtype, record syntax, integration 
of previous projects,
Cabal support, Quickcheck, strict data fields, improving the LLVM back-end.

One thing I have wondered about: do we actually have something like an 
extensive set of tests
to throw at any Haskell 2010 compliant compiler that would help find mistakes 
on our parr?
My students have come up with a range of examples to test their 
implementations, but there
is nothing like a set of programs you’ve never seen or heard about.



If you want to be really thorough:

1. start with all of Hackage,

2. filter out all packages with the extensions: field in the cabal file,

3. filter out all modules with the {-# LANGUAGE ... #-} pragma,

4. recursively filter out all modules that import any filtered-out module,

5. you're left with a large set of pure Haskell 2010 modules.


    If you'd rather start small, I suspect it's best to look at the 
existing Haskell implementations. For example, there is a test suite at 
https://github.com/ajhc/ajhc/tree/arafura/regress/tests



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Helium II

[Jurriaan Hage]

Dear all,

We’ve been active since September making the Helium compiler more Haskell 2010 
compliant.
In particular, we have a branch with support for Haskell 2010 type classes, a 
branch that
supports import/export following the standard, and a branch that compiles to 
LLVM instead 
of the `old’ Helium-specific LVM that has become harder and harder to maintain.
These still need to be integrated. When I find time for that is hard to say.

Another project will be taking place in the period Feb-Apr and I expect we can 
tie up a lot of 
loose ends then. Current loose ends include newtype, record syntax, integration 
of previous projects, 
Cabal support, Quickcheck, strict data fields, improving the LLVM back-end.

One thing I have wondered about: do we actually have something like an 
extensive set of tests
to throw at any Haskell 2010 compliant compiler that would help find mistakes 
on our parr?
My students have come up with a range of examples to test their 
implementations, but there
is nothing like a set of programs you’ve never seen or heard about.

We shall also be adding support for GADTs as part of a reseach project this 
course year. Again, a large range
of examples would be welcome indeed.

best,
Jur

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