Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
Server admins: This is not an end-user support mailing list. The usual use of this mailing list is to assist programmers with half-life related code support. Please lean on your plugin author for support. You do have a say. However you're barking up the wrong tree. It is not our fault. It is not your fault. This list sympathizes, but it's not, strictly, our problem. Now if you want general pointers on how to re-author a plugin so it works with the correct method, this is the right list. To both plugin coders: You were given ample warning about the valve-sanctioned menu method. You chose to ignore it. This is all on you. This list is not the place to bitch about changes that broke your plugin that happens to rely on undocumented interfaces. It's not documented for a reason: You're not supposed to screw around with it. In case you missed it, and are too lazy to check the archives: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ May 20, 2005 3rd party plugins have been using a hack to trigger an unused bit of game code. We provide them with another, maintained, user friendlier version of menus that work across all mods, they need to start using that. [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ May 20, 2005 Assuming that CS:S uses the same code that we ship in the SDK is wrong (because they won't match). Injecting network messages and assuming the same implementation in a binary you don't control is not going to work. We have provided a stable, consistent (across all mods) API for plugins to message users. We have already added new functionality to this interface at the request of plugin authors, a quick email discussion with us and I am sure we can find a middle ground. Also note that plugins already use the exported API for HL2MP (and other 3rd party mods I suspect). We are not going to be held hostage to 3rd party programmers using triggering out of date and unused game code that isn't part of a published API (i.e part of an exported interface function). End snip. To Valve: You guys give the best support to modders out of any company I know of. But I hate to say it: the plugin authors have a point: a little forewarning would be nice. I'm not saying you need to take out an ad in the paper every time you fix something, or anything remotely like that, but a little notice somewhere (like on this list, or on a website) about changes to interfaces, and perhaps even a little more verbosity in the changelogs (possibly even post the changelog a day or two before the update, just [changed] items and boring [fixed] ones) would probably be well recieved by many people: developers, admins and possibly even average players (That bug has been fixed? Thank god!) If I may make a suggestion: If you haven't got a PR person, find one. You guys got killed by the public during the HL2 delay because, as Gabe Newell put it, he froze up. Any news is good news. Even if it's just to say: Hey, we're going to make a change to some horribly hacky code that a lot of you use for something. An alternate interface will be provided. Details to follow. To everyone else on the list: Calm down. I know a bunch of complaints have been posted many times already, but is it really going to solve anything by getting pissed off? Of course not. Breathe deeply. Take your anger out by splattering some newbies on the wall with a toilet in a game of HL2:DM... It'll make you feel right as rain. On 5/21/05, Dagok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Says who? You have no business telling people who can and cannot post to the lists. The topic has been being discussed in several of the lists. The menu problem affects Server Admins the most...so yes we do have a say. - Original Message - From: Michael A. Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: HLCoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol First of all, No Server Plug-in author has now or ever had any business depending upon the network protocol for any mod they do not themselves control remaining unchanged over time. Secondly, I'll wager a few plugged nickels here that the vast majority of people pissing and moaning about the MenuSelect format change are not even server plug-in authors, but are instead server admins who were using somebody else's hack plug-in. If you aren't a programmer, you have no business posting to this list. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 344-3585 (cell) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] It does when you attack the Valve programmers, filling the list with spiteful garbage, thinking because you are admins you should have total control of the game. Your problems do not belong here because: a) This list is for programmers of the HL and HL2 SDK and plug-in authors, while others are welcome to read, don't expect help to flood to you otherwise. b) While the Valve programmers occassionally post on here, this is not their main method of communication to the public. Most of the members of this list are programmers of HL2 mods, we have no control over the API's or the plug-ins you use. There are various other ways to contact Valve and/or discuss your problems with a more suitable audience ie http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds (which apparantly you are already discussing it in, so why it was brought here I have no idea) or even the Steam forums. Your problems are not with the HL/HL2 SDK, but with the plug-in authors themselves who you should try take your queries to. It is their responsibility to update their plugin, not Valves responsibility to accomodate their hacks. Changes like the ones that were made to MenuSelect are very rare anyway. On 5/22/05, Dagok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Says who? You have no business telling people who can and cannot post to the lists. The topic has been being discussed in several of the lists. The menu problem affects Server Admins the most...so yes we do have a say. - Original Message - From: Michael A. Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: HLCoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol First of all, No Server Plug-in author has now or ever had any business depending upon the network protocol for any mod they do not themselves control remaining unchanged over time. Secondly, I'll wager a few plugged nickels here that the vast majority of people pissing and moaning about the MenuSelect format change are not even server plug-in authors, but are instead server admins who were using somebody else's hack plug-in. If you aren't a programmer, you have no business posting to this list. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 344-3585 (cell) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Programmer for RnL www.resistanceandliberation.com http://www.resistanceandliberation.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
So many people spreading misinformation. a) Plugin authors were given NO warning, ever, none whatsoever. b) It is documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp and this has been stated multiple times now. Both of these points are things Alfred said and he is incorrect about. You are just blindly regurgitating what he said. - Original Message - From: Andrew Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol Server admins: This is not an end-user support mailing list. The usual use of this mailing list is to assist programmers with half-life related code support. Please lean on your plugin author for support. You do have a say. However you're barking up the wrong tree. It is not our fault. It is not your fault. This list sympathizes, but it's not, strictly, our problem. Now if you want general pointers on how to re-author a plugin so it works with the correct method, this is the right list. To both plugin coders: You were given ample warning about the valve-sanctioned menu method. You chose to ignore it. This is all on you. This list is not the place to bitch about changes that broke your plugin that happens to rely on undocumented interfaces. It's not documented for a reason: You're not supposed to screw around with it. In case you missed it, and are too lazy to check the archives: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ May 20, 2005 3rd party plugins have been using a hack to trigger an unused bit of game code. We provide them with another, maintained, user friendlier version of menus that work across all mods, they need to start using that. [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ May 20, 2005 Assuming that CS:S uses the same code that we ship in the SDK is wrong (because they won't match). Injecting network messages and assuming the same implementation in a binary you don't control is not going to work. We have provided a stable, consistent (across all mods) API for plugins to message users. We have already added new functionality to this interface at the request of plugin authors, a quick email discussion with us and I am sure we can find a middle ground. Also note that plugins already use the exported API for HL2MP (and other 3rd party mods I suspect). We are not going to be held hostage to 3rd party programmers using triggering out of date and unused game code that isn't part of a published API (i.e part of an exported interface function). End snip. To Valve: You guys give the best support to modders out of any company I know of. But I hate to say it: the plugin authors have a point: a little forewarning would be nice. I'm not saying you need to take out an ad in the paper every time you fix something, or anything remotely like that, but a little notice somewhere (like on this list, or on a website) about changes to interfaces, and perhaps even a little more verbosity in the changelogs (possibly even post the changelog a day or two before the update, just [changed] items and boring [fixed] ones) would probably be well recieved by many people: developers, admins and possibly even average players (That bug has been fixed? Thank god!) If I may make a suggestion: If you haven't got a PR person, find one. You guys got killed by the public during the HL2 delay because, as Gabe Newell put it, he froze up. Any news is good news. Even if it's just to say: Hey, we're going to make a change to some horribly hacky code that a lot of you use for something. An alternate interface will be provided. Details to follow. To everyone else on the list: Calm down. I know a bunch of complaints have been posted many times already, but is it really going to solve anything by getting pissed off? Of course not. Breathe deeply. Take your anger out by splattering some newbies on the wall with a toilet in a game of HL2:DM... It'll make you feel right as rain. On 5/21/05, Dagok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Says who? You have no business telling people who can and cannot post to the lists. The topic has been being discussed in several of the lists. The menu problem affects Server Admins the most...so yes we do have a say. - Original Message - From: Michael A. Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: HLCoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol First of all, No Server Plug-in author has now or ever had any business depending upon the network protocol for any mod they do not themselves control remaining unchanged over time. Secondly, I'll wager a few plugged nickels here that the vast majority of people pissing and moaning about the MenuSelect format change are not even server plug-in authors, but are instead server admins who were using somebody else's hack plug-in. If you aren't a programmer, you have no business posting to this list. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
A: No, they weren't. I agree. I said as much up there. It sucks, but bitching about it doesn't help. B: It has been stated multiple times now that that is for HL2. and has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON CS:S. http://www.valve-erc.com/srcsdk/Code/ServerPlugins.html -- Oddly, the sdk docs seem to detail a method for a plugin to display a menu. fancy that. Funny, can you post a copy of the message, I seem to not be able to find anything like that in my inbox. And you're blindly complaining. On 5/21/05, Dagok [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So many people spreading misinformation. a) Plugin authors were given NO warning, ever, none whatsoever. b) It is documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp and this has been stated multiple times now. Both of these points are things Alfred said and he is incorrect about. You are just blindly regurgitating what he said. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
agreed. plus, we're all smart people (except for nuclearfriend :p) you can find a way to get your plugins working under the real api -- Draco ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
At 11:47 PM 5/21/2005, Dagok wrote: So many people spreading misinformation. a) Plugin authors were given NO warning, ever, none whatsoever. Not to use network messaging protocol hacks for a mod they don't have the source code for ? The Source SDK codebase is *NOT THE CODEBASE FOR CS:SOURCE* b) It is documented in cl_dll/menu.cpp and this has been stated multiple times now. Nowhere in the Source SDK codebases for either Single Player, Multiplayer or HL2DM does it say CS:Source uses identical code to this. Only a newb coder or a complete moron would make such an assumption. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 344-3585 (cell) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
Just think of all the complaints as requests for improvements to the plugin menu API. On 5/22/05, Draco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: agreed. plus, we're all smart people (except for nuclearfriend :p) you can find a way to get your plugins working under the real api -- Draco ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
First of all, No Server Plug-in author has now or ever had any business depending upon the network protocol for any mod they do not themselves control remaining unchanged over time. Secondly, I'll wager a few plugged nickels here that the vast majority of people pissing and moaning about the MenuSelect format change are not even server plug-in authors, but are instead server admins who were using somebody else's hack plug-in. If you aren't a programmer, you have no business posting to this list. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 344-3585 (cell) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol
Says who? You have no business telling people who can and cannot post to the lists. The topic has been being discussed in several of the lists. The menu problem affects Server Admins the most...so yes we do have a say. - Original Message - From: Michael A. Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: HLCoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: [hlcoders] People crying about changes to CS:S custom network protocol First of all, No Server Plug-in author has now or ever had any business depending upon the network protocol for any mod they do not themselves control remaining unchanged over time. Secondly, I'll wager a few plugged nickels here that the vast majority of people pissing and moaning about the MenuSelect format change are not even server plug-in authors, but are instead server admins who were using somebody else's hack plug-in. If you aren't a programmer, you have no business posting to this list. Michael A. Hobson email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 344-3585 (cell) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
