Re: [Hornlist] NHR Healthcare in Europe
Sorry. I meant to reply off-list. I agree with Luke that it's better not to clutter the list with off-topic discussions, Kit > Hi Luke, > > I trained as a doctor in the UK, and I'd be interested to (try to) answer > any of your questions. > > Kit > > >> Those of you outside the US may know of our debate on the issue of >> healthcare in the US. Is there someone from the UK that could answer a >> few questions on the UK healthcare system? Please contact me off list >> if >> you could. >> >> Thanks, >> Luke Zyla >> lz...@suddenlink.net >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk >> > > > -- > Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any > trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' > > Sorry for any confusion > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] NHR Healthcare in Europe
Hi Luke, I trained as a doctor in the UK, and I'd be interested to (try to) answer any of your questions. Kit > Those of you outside the US may know of our debate on the issue of > healthcare in the US. Is there someone from the UK that could answer a > few questions on the UK healthcare system? Please contact me off list if > you could. > > Thanks, > Luke Zyla > lz...@suddenlink.net > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Recording
I am very impressed, and I suspect people will be for a few generations to
come. Trusting that the air does not become Uraneous before then.
Kit
> -Original Message-
> From: horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu
> [mailto:horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of
> Richard V. West
> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 5:21 PM
> To: The Horn List
> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Recording
>
> Hey, I'm impressed! In my youth (just a few years younger than you, Ed),
> Lehrer was the MAN! "I hold your hand in mine dear, though you are far
> away" Ah, the beauty of it all.
>
> Richard in Seattle
>
> Glick, Ed wrote:
>> Incidentally, although I'm sure you're younger than I am (83 - me, not
>> you), but you may be of the generation that heard (or heard of) the
>> recording by Tom Lehrer. ("Be prepared, that's the Boy Scout marching
>> song," "Lobachevsky," etc.). If you know of this recording, you may
>> (or may not) be impressed that I was the engineer on the original
>> recording. (Of course, if you've never heard of it, you probably won't
>> be.)
> ___
> post: horn@music.memphis.edu
> unsubscribe or set options at
> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net
>
> ___
> post: horn@music.memphis.edu
> unsubscribe or set options at
> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk
>
--
Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any
trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...'
Sorry for any confusion
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn
It seems to be working now - I could download it without logging in. Kit > My apologies over the music thing - I could download it because I was the > contributor, so I thought it had been approved already. > > Kit > >> Thanks Michiel >> Now that I am retired I am thinking about getting a natural horn and >> working with that. No one will hear my shake so it won't matter. >> >> Have a good one. >> >> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Michiel van der Linden wrote: >> >> >> From: Michiel van der Linden >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn >> To: "The Horn List" >> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:05 AM >> >> >> IMSLP keeps every uploaded score locked until somenone of their team >> verifies it. When they were coming back after their long shutdown you >> got this message with almost every single score. Be patient, it will >> become available in a few hours or days. >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 17:01, Milton Kicklighter >> wrote: >>> Hi Kit, >>> >>> I made an attempt to download the file, but it would not allow me to do >>> so. Something about copywrite not being verified??? >>> >>> I did click on the disclaimer, but still could not download the file. >>> >>> Thanks for uploading it. It will be interesting to see. >>> >>> Milton >>> MIlton Kicklighter >>> 4th horn Buffalo Phil >>> Retired >>> >>> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Kit Wolf wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Kit Wolf >>> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn >>> To: "The Horn List" >>> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 10:46 AM >>> >>> >>> Thank you for the reassurance - it's much appreciated. >>> >>> I've uploaded it to imslp: >>> >>> http://imslp.org/wiki/J_W_Pepper%27s_self_instructor_for_French_Horn_%28Pepper%2C_J_W%29 >>> >>> It claims that it is only legal in the US but not in Europe/Canada, but >>> I >>> think this is because I couldn't give a date of death for the >>> composer/author. >>> >>> Kit >>> >>> >>> >>>> - Yes, it most certainly is public domain. >>>> - What you are doing is completely legal. Simply scanning a public >>>> domain work does not merit a copyright over the resulting images. In >>>> general, products of the united states federal government are not >>>> eligeble for copyright >>>> (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government>). >>>> - IMSLP would be very willing to host the PDF that you made: >>>> <http://www.imslp.org>. They also have some more information about >>>> what is and isn't public domain: >>>> <http://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain>. IMSLP already hosts similar >>>> items from the LOC (i.e. Arban method for cornet: >>>> <http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1879.16130>). >>>> >>>> -Jay >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Kit Wolf >>>> wrote: >>>>> A while ago I bought an antique Pepper handhorn, and of course I >>>>> looked >>>>> on >>>>> the internet to see what I could find out about it. One of the things >>>>> that >>>>> popped up was a 35 page 'self-instructor' for both valveless and >>>>> valved >>>>> horn, published 1882. I downloaded all the images from the library of >>>>> congress (for some reason they only seem to post each page >>>>> separately) >>>>> and >>>>> turned it into a big PDF. >>>>> >>>>> I find it quite a fun and interesting document. It has a very short >>>>> introduction to the horn, harmonic series etc. Then it launches into >>>>> some >>>>> studies for both valved and valveless horn, and then it has about 19 >>>>> pieces for valveless horn and about 30 for the valved. It's quite a >>>>> fun >>>>> selection - everything from the Russian national anthem, Hail to the >>>>> chief, to some Donizetti... >>>>> >>>>> I have two questions: >>>>> >>>>> Am I correct in thinking that, as it was published in 1882, it is >>>>> likely >>>>> to be complete
Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn
My apologies over the music thing - I could download it because I was the contributor, so I thought it had been approved already. Kit > Thanks Michiel > Now that I am retired I am thinking about getting a natural horn and > working with that. No one will hear my shake so it won't matter. > > Have a good one. > > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Michiel van der Linden wrote: > > > From: Michiel van der Linden > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn > To: "The Horn List" > Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:05 AM > > > IMSLP keeps every uploaded score locked until somenone of their team > verifies it. When they were coming back after their long shutdown you > got this message with almost every single score. Be patient, it will > become available in a few hours or days. > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 17:01, Milton Kicklighter > wrote: >> Hi Kit, >> >> I made an attempt to download the file, but it would not allow me to do >> so. Something about copywrite not being verified??? >> >> I did click on the disclaimer, but still could not download the file. >> >> Thanks for uploading it. It will be interesting to see. >> >> Milton >> MIlton Kicklighter >> 4th horn Buffalo Phil >> Retired >> >> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Kit Wolf wrote: >> >> >> From: Kit Wolf >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn >> To: "The Horn List" >> Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 10:46 AM >> >> >> Thank you for the reassurance - it's much appreciated. >> >> I've uploaded it to imslp: >> >> http://imslp.org/wiki/J_W_Pepper%27s_self_instructor_for_French_Horn_%28Pepper%2C_J_W%29 >> >> It claims that it is only legal in the US but not in Europe/Canada, but >> I >> think this is because I couldn't give a date of death for the >> composer/author. >> >> Kit >> >> >> >>> - Yes, it most certainly is public domain. >>> - What you are doing is completely legal. Simply scanning a public >>> domain work does not merit a copyright over the resulting images. In >>> general, products of the united states federal government are not >>> eligeble for copyright >>> (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government>). >>> - IMSLP would be very willing to host the PDF that you made: >>> <http://www.imslp.org>. They also have some more information about >>> what is and isn't public domain: >>> <http://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain>. IMSLP already hosts similar >>> items from the LOC (i.e. Arban method for cornet: >>> <http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1879.16130>). >>> >>> -Jay >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Kit Wolf >>> wrote: >>>> A while ago I bought an antique Pepper handhorn, and of course I >>>> looked >>>> on >>>> the internet to see what I could find out about it. One of the things >>>> that >>>> popped up was a 35 page 'self-instructor' for both valveless and >>>> valved >>>> horn, published 1882. I downloaded all the images from the library of >>>> congress (for some reason they only seem to post each page separately) >>>> and >>>> turned it into a big PDF. >>>> >>>> I find it quite a fun and interesting document. It has a very short >>>> introduction to the horn, harmonic series etc. Then it launches into >>>> some >>>> studies for both valved and valveless horn, and then it has about 19 >>>> pieces for valveless horn and about 30 for the valved. It's quite a >>>> fun >>>> selection - everything from the Russian national anthem, Hail to the >>>> chief, to some Donizetti... >>>> >>>> I have two questions: >>>> >>>> Am I correct in thinking that, as it was published in 1882, it is >>>> likely >>>> to be completely out of copyright. Furthermore, am I right in >>>> thinking >>>> that the fact that the library of congress has photographed it doesn't >>>> give them copyright over the images,% >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corbasse%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo.com > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn
Thank you for the reassurance - it's much appreciated. I've uploaded it to imslp: http://imslp.org/wiki/J_W_Pepper%27s_self_instructor_for_French_Horn_%28Pepper%2C_J_W%29 It claims that it is only legal in the US but not in Europe/Canada, but I think this is because I couldn't give a date of death for the composer/author. Kit > - Yes, it most certainly is public domain. > - What you are doing is completely legal. Simply scanning a public > domain work does not merit a copyright over the resulting images. In > general, products of the united states federal government are not > eligeble for copyright > (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government>). > - IMSLP would be very willing to host the PDF that you made: > <http://www.imslp.org>. They also have some more information about > what is and isn't public domain: > <http://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain>. IMSLP already hosts similar > items from the LOC (i.e. Arban method for cornet: > <http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1879.16130>). > > -Jay > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Kit Wolf > wrote: >> A while ago I bought an antique Pepper handhorn, and of course I looked >> on >> the internet to see what I could find out about it. One of the things >> that >> popped up was a 35 page 'self-instructor' for both valveless and valved >> horn, published 1882. I downloaded all the images from the library of >> congress (for some reason they only seem to post each page separately) >> and >> turned it into a big PDF. >> >> I find it quite a fun and interesting document. It has a very short >> introduction to the horn, harmonic series etc. Then it launches into >> some >> studies for both valved and valveless horn, and then it has about 19 >> pieces for valveless horn and about 30 for the valved. It's quite a fun >> selection - everything from the Russian national anthem, Hail to the >> chief, to some Donizetti... >> >> I have two questions: >> >> Am I correct in thinking that, as it was published in 1882, it is likely >> to be completely out of copyright. Furthermore, am I right in thinking >> that the fact that the library of congress has photographed it doesn't >> give them copyright over the images,% ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Pepper's self instructor for french horn
A while ago I bought an antique Pepper handhorn, and of course I looked on the internet to see what I could find out about it. One of the things that popped up was a 35 page 'self-instructor' for both valveless and valved horn, published 1882. I downloaded all the images from the library of congress (for some reason they only seem to post each page separately) and turned it into a big PDF. I find it quite a fun and interesting document. It has a very short introduction to the horn, harmonic series etc. Then it launches into some studies for both valved and valveless horn, and then it has about 19 pieces for valveless horn and about 30 for the valved. It's quite a fun selection - everything from the Russian national anthem, Hail to the chief, to some Donizetti... I have two questions: Am I correct in thinking that, as it was published in 1882, it is likely to be completely out of copyright. Furthermore, am I right in thinking that the fact that the library of congress has photographed it doesn't give them copyright over the images, even if the original version was out of copyright. To simplify my question slightly: is what I've done / am planning to do legal? Secondly, assuming that it is, does anybody know which online repositories might be willing to host a copy? Thanks, Kit http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mussm&fileName=sm/sm1882/15200/15228/mussm15228.db&recNum=0&itemLink=D?mussm:6:./temp/~ammem_KKB6::@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cowellbib,calbkbib,consrvbib,bdsbib,dag,fsaall,gmd,pan,vv,presp,varstg,suffrg,nawbib,horyd,wtc,toddbib,mgw,ncr,ngp,musdibib,hlaw,papr,lhbumbib,rbpebib,lbcoll,alad,hh,aaodyssey,magbell,bbcards,dcm,raelbib,runyon,dukesm,lomaxbib,mtj,gottlieb,aep,qlt,coolbib,fpnas,aasm,denn,relpet,amss,aaeo,mff,afc911bib,mjm,mnwp,rbcmillerbib,molden,ww2map,mfdipbib,afcnyebib,klpmap,hawp,omhbib,rbaapcbib,mal,ncpsbib,ncpm,lhbprbib,ftvbib,afcreed,aipn,cwband,flwpabib,wpapos,cmns,psbib,pin,coplandbib,cola,tccc,curt,mharendt,lhbcbbib,eaa,haybib,mesnbib,fine,cwnyhs,svybib,mmorse,afcwwgbib,mymhiwebib,uncall,afcwip,mtaft,manz,llstbib,fawbib,berl,fmuever,cdn,upboverbib,mussm,cic,afcpearl,awh,awhbib,sgp,wright,lhbtnbib,afcesnbib,hurstonbib,mreynoldsbib,spaldingbib,sgproto,scsmbib&linkText=0 J. W. Pepper's Self instructor for french horn / by . CREATED/PUBLISHED Philadelphia: Pepper, J. W., 1882. SUBJECTS Musical Instruments--Studies and exercises Instrumental music--Instruction and study RELATED TITLES Music for a nation: American sheet music, 1870-1885. MEDIUM 1 score CALL NUMBER M2.3.U6A44 PART OF American 19th-century sheet music. Copyright deposits, 1870-1885 REPOSITORY Library of Congress. Music Division. DIGITAL ID sm1882 15228 urn:hdl:loc.music/sm1882.15228 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1882.15228 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Published vs. Electronic
Personally I have printed a fair amount of music from Mutopia and it can be difficult to get it printed and bound to a standard comparable to shop-bought sheet music. This is particularly the case for music that runs to several pages - music that fits to a single side of A4 is easy enough, obviously.I continue to use it, because it's hard to justify paying good money for a piece if it's freely available. On the other hand, for ensemble music it's nice to have the ability to print out spare parts so that people can take them home and you don't have to worry about their safe return. I'm not sure whether this would be within copyright for recent music though. I wouldn't want to listen to the piece before buying, particularly if it's played electronically. Half the fun is finding your own interpretation before listening to other people, and I imagine most of us can gauge the difficulty of a piece just by looking at it. Seeing samples, though, is a 'must'. If you've written 4, why not give one away for free? I think how you go about putting music online is important - I saw quite an expensive piece the other day that only allowed you to make a very few printouts. What if the printer jams, or in trying to save paper and print on both sides, it all comes out upside down and in the wrong order?! Anyway, that's my take, Kit > Hey there! > > My name is Mark Pope and I played horn for years (until grad school) - > and I've recently written a collection of 4 short pieces for horn. > They are all short, under 4 minutes, and written to be fairly > accessible for both horn player and pianist - somewhat "light" music. > (I'm really not advertising, actually!) :) > > My question to you, since I've been out of the "horn-music-gettin' > mode" for a while, is how you prefer to obtain your music. > > Are you more likely to purchase music published by a certain > publisher, or from a certain distributor, or, in the internet age are > you comfortable with purchasing music off of a composer's website? > > For newly composed music, do you like to see samples of the written > music or to hear samples (and are computer generated samples adequate)? > > I'm eager to get my music in front of people - but I'm just a bit > unsure about the best way to get it distributed, especially with > technology changing like it is... > > Thank you in advance for your thoughts!! > > -Mark > m...@markandrewpope.com > > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Fwd: Re: [Hornlist] OT: solo beginnings]
> Kit Wolf wrote: > >I don't know whether individual movements should count, but Gilbert and >Sullivan's HMS Pinafore, 2nd act starts with a horn solo - as I recall. > > Bob asked about compositions for orchestra, and HMS Pinafore hardly > qualifies. It is an operetta, and the first number in Act II is an aria > for the the captain. Fair enough... Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: solo beginnings
I don't know whether individual movements should count, but Gilbert and Sullivan's HMS Pinafore, 2nd act starts with a horn solo - as I recall. Kit > Hello all, > > Now that we are moving into summer, how about a little game to test > your knowledge: > > Name compositions for orchestra (including concerti) that begin with a > one single, solo instrument. > > I'll get you started: > > Debussy: Afternoon of a Faun > Stravinsky: Rite of Spring > Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2 > > Have at it! > > Bob > > ** > Robert N. Ward > Principal Horn > San Francisco Symphony > rnw...@comcast.net > > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What to post or not...
> I think it might be a "public service" to > have certain horn related items on the > list at times. One convention is to put 'FS' in the title bar, then anyone who want's to filter out advertising can do so very easily. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Brass safety - natural horn mouthpieces
> Hi Kit, > > In the US at least, almost, if not all, mouthpieces are made of C360 > free-cutting brass rod. It has 2.5-3.7% lead content. I've never seen or > heard of any situation where that caused a problem I guess part of the problem with lead is that it is harmful at very low levels. It can cause subtle but measurable behavior changes and reductions in IQ long before it causes any of the classical symptoms of lead poisoning. The fact that individual people don't notice problems and then attribute them to their mouthpieces doesn't mean that they're innocuous. Apparently in leaded brass, the lead is not held in the copper/zinc matrix but more as a sort of emulsion of 1-3 micrometer globules and 10 micrometer spicules of pure lead spread throughout the brass. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations and came out with a figure that there was about 0.5mg of pure lead on the surface of my mouthpiece rims, just waiting to be leached off. As the mouthpiece wears down, yet more will be exposed - I have no idea how fast a mouthpiece wears down. Compared to the amount I was probably exposed to as a kid, this is nothing. Although I don't take my guesstimate too seriously, given that the Californian maximum acceptable allowance is 0.5 micrograms per day per product, it actually does seem a quantity worth avoiding. > but I don't believe > in tempting fate so all our mouthpieces are plated. We usually use gold > for the rim and silver on the cup but all silver is also good. We can > also make delrin rims to further reduce potential lead exposure. > > Of the alloys you mention, CZ121 is the most nearly equivalent to C360. > It has 58% brass and 3% lead and it's machinability index is 90 > (C360=100). The other alloys you mention contain about 1.2% lead and > have a machinability rating of 30. Non-starters, I think. I had a 4mm cz108 half-hard plate delivered through the post today, cut a hexagon out of it and machined it down to a circular disk on the lathe. I used the same tool I normally use for steel and it cut fine. I actually found it an easier process than cutting disks out of brass rod using a parting tool, which is how I've heard of rims being made before. This is not a disagreement by the way - I'm basically just making large brass washers, which is a very different enterprise from making whole mouthpieces on the lathe. > The common alloy for sheet metal here in the US is C260 cartridge brass. > While it's lead-free, the rim on most sheet metal mouthpieces is a > turned piece that is soldered on. More lead! Not any more! I've been using a 95% tin, 5% silver solder. Interestingly, my antique natural horn mouthpiece actually didn't use solder at all and when its previous owner dropped it the rim fell off. A few of my theories are that: 1) They knew about the dangers of lead solder and wanted to avoid it 2) Even in the 1700s - 1800s, you could go to a mouthpiece shop and buy your cup and rim separately then have them pressed together 3) The solder is slightly unsightly as it's a different colour from the brass 4) The solder will probably wear at a different rate from the brass, and will either leave a ridge, or more likely a depression, on the surface of the rim If anybody actually knows the answer - or how common it was for rims to be soldered in the 18th-19th centuries - I'd be interested to hear. I'm planning to go and see some in museums, but it isn't always apparent how they've been constructed. > In any case, it's no > problem to plate a sheet metal mouthpiece. Alloys other than the most > common ones can be expensive and hard to get (think 5000lb minimum > order) and I don't see any advantage. Everybody uses C360 because it has > proven to be the best alloy to work with. I agree with you about plating mouthpieces. Even though I can now use 'lead free' brass I think I will be on the safe side and get them plated. Either that or I'll look into Sterling silver. > Good luck with your mouthpiece project. Thank you - it's been a lot of fun. I already have a few mouthpieces that have turned out quite nicely. I'll post some pictures of the whole process when I've had a bit more practice. Kit > > Bob Osmun > www.osmun.com > > PS-Mr. Austin's opinion notwithstanding, I doubt if any of us is too > keen to have "a big spinning ribbon of razor wire" coming off our lathe! > > > Kit Wolf wrote: >> I've recently been dabbling in making mouthpieces for natural horns, and >> I >> noticed that the only grades of brass that seem readily available for >> turning (e.g. CZ121, CZ114 / CW614 and CW721) both contain lead. CZ121 >> contains about 4%; CZ114 contains about 1%. >> >> Although this isn't a great problem
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Brass safety - lead content
Thank you all for your replies - it seems I was right to be concerned. > Lead is added to encourage the chips to break off, rather than form a > big spinning ribbon of razor wire. This is what is meant by "free > machining". It is important for high speed automatic operations, not > for what you're doing. After all, there are plenty of alloys and > applications where lead can't be used, but machining is done anyway. > > You might want to experiment with different materials, for they well > have different machining characteristics important to you. BTW, alloys > have specifications that account for likely sources of scrap, so many > may have significant allowances for lead. Ouch! It seems that even 'lead free' cz108 can have up to 0.3% Pb. It took a bit of searching to find this - most of the specs imply that there is no lead in it, or just a trace. I guess the ultimate question is, 'at what point do I stop worrying?' > I don't know, but perhaps > there are some that are considered "food grade" and some that are not. I think I'm going to have to talk to the metal dealers over this one. I hope they have more information than they put on the web. Thanks again, Kit > Curt Austin (ex-metallurgist) > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Brass safety - lead content
I've recently been dabbling in making mouthpieces for natural horns, and I noticed that the only grades of brass that seem readily available for turning (e.g. CZ121, CZ114 / CW614 and CW721) both contain lead. CZ121 contains about 4%; CZ114 contains about 1%. Although this isn't a great problem for me - I can use sheet metal - does anybody know what metals/alloys are generally used to make mouthpieces, and whether or not it's worth worrying about leaded brass from a safety perspective? I have several old mouthpieces where the plating is wearing thin, or that were simply left unplated from the outset. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horns and Trumpets in the Baroque
> Thank you, everyone. I did get that this is a period instrument > group, but I confess that this is the closest look I've ever had at a > period horn. Most of the "natural" horns I've seen look much closer > to modern horns than those in this video. There are some good websites with close-up photos of historic instruments - e.g. http://www.usd.edu/smm/Brass/Trumpets/NaturalTrumpets/Hainlein/3873/HainleinTrumpet3873.html http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucj/ucjth06.html has a picture of a horn somewhat similar to those being used in the performance. The trumpets seemed to have holes to correct the intonation, which probably isn't terribly 'period'. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] metronome multiples of 6 [was: Mendelssohn Nocturne]
> I am surprised that a bunch of horn players, who live and die by their > understanding of the harmonic series, failed to see such similar > proportionalities in the metronomic scale. The article I posted to about Maelzel explained that he designed his scale specifically to keep the increments between tempi proportionally approximately constant. This is different from the multiples of 6 we have been discussing: a jump from 60 to 66 would not be proportionately similar to a jump from 100 to 106. Quantz, writing in the mid 1700s, defined tempi relative to an average human pulse rate - approximately 80 bpm. If you were playing Bach or Mozart, by following a system based on multiples of 6 and 60 bpm rather than Quantz pulse-based system - even if you divided the Quantz base rate of 80bpm according to the same method - you would actually slightly change the relationships between the tempi. The idea that changes in tempi sound more balanced if you make them in particular proportions seems reasonable to me, but I don't see that following the metronome too closely is the way to achieve this. Particularly if you restrict yourself to only a few positions on the scale. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn Solo in Beatles "For No One"
How about this for a possibility: Alan Civil played it a tone and a half higher than Jeff Bryant? It would seem simple enough to transpose down for all the other performers, and if they had any intention of playing it live it would probably have been a sensible thing to do. There seem to be several versions of how the part came to be written and who wrote it. I have no idea which of them is true. Kit > this is interesting and something I knew nothing about; if the PART is > written up to written F then the TAPE must have been done at a different > speed because what I HEARD was a D not an F > > so if anyone can pull a tape that is in the correct pitch?? > > thanks Kit for referencing this.. > > - "Kit Wolf" wrote: > >> Alan apparently queried the part because it went up to written F, then >> he >> played it anyway. > > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn Solo in Beatles "For No One"
I don't recall this being mentioned before, but I'm not going to stomp all the way through the thread again to check. This thread mentions the story I recall about the piece, which I think is what's being referred to: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.music.beatles/browse_thread/thread/f82f28280a97a888/766ba725ef755b30?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=mccartney+horn+high+alan+civil Alan apparently queried the part because it went up to written F, then he played it anyway. Kit > I am sure it is correct. I also did not mention anything about Alan > Civil's personal opinions, nor am I aware of any such opinions as those > you stated. And, if we want to split hairs about this, yes like you, I can > also play a high D on my horn, consistently. >> >> I'm not sure that's correct because Alan Civil wouldn't have made a big >> deal >> about that note. I'm an amateur and can play a d above high c. Not >> consistently but in warm up. He wouldn't have said it "wasn't on the >> horn" >> before playing it wonderfully. >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM, wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > The highest pitch played in the horn solo is the D above staff >> (concert G) >> > and it is played well in tune. The piece itself is in B Flat major. >> > >> > ..not bad for a hornist who can arrive, unpack & nail the solo in the >> space >> > of 45 seconds.. >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gwd3FvPYM&feature=related >> > ___ >> > post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> > unsubscribe or set options at >> > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/conja.summerlin%40gmail.com >> > >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/ardeecor%40comcast.net >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] metronome multiples of 6 [was: Mendelssohn Nocturne]
Just another quick point: Looking at Maelzel's metronome scale, 38 of 40 are divisible by 2 (20 expected) 30 of 40 are divisible by 4 (10 expected) 19 of 40 are divisible by 8 (5 expected) In view of this, the fact that about 50% are divisible by 6 doesn't seem obviously special. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] metronome multiples of 6 [was: Mendelssohn Nocturne]
Aside from disagreeing with the reasoning behind Hans' assertion that all
good composers should avoid using the 'in-between metronomes', it strikes
me that the question of whether or not they do is something that can be
tested pretty readily. I picked 3 Eulenberg scores off my bookshelf and
copied out all the marked tempos from them, as follows:
('Y' means that 6 is a factor of the tempo. An 'N' indicates that it isn't.)
80 n
92 n
104 n
54 y
60 y
50 n
54 y
69 n
72 y
100 n
72 y
80 n
66 y
69 n
54 y
138 y
80 n
120 y
144 y
96 y
11 / 20 - Tchaik V
56 n
132 y
60 y
84 y
72 y
63 n
112 n
76 n
104 n
104 n
4/10 Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
80 n
88 n
72 y
88 n
100 n
72 y
80 n
60 y
66 y
152 n
66 y
138 y
84 y
88 n
72 y
80 n
80 n
100 n
116 n
8/19 Verdi Messa da Requiem
One caveat is that I might have missed a few. I flicked through them
pretty quickly - I'm not trying to write a peer-reviewed paper. Another
caveat is that Eulenberg scores may have been copied by Mahlerian copyists
who tweaked the composer's original tempo markings, or the tempo markings
may not have originally been added by the composer. I don't have the
scholarship necessary to answer this question, or access to older scores.
However, my Eulenberg Bach scores haven't got any metronome markings at
all, so I think it unlikely that the copyists should have modified the
markings on the original scores, or added metronome markings where none
previously existed.
In total, 23/49 tempi are divisible by 6. This might sound impressive,
given that only 1/6 of a series of randomly chosen integers should be
divisible by 6. However, if we assume that the numbers were all picked
from Maelzel's metronome scale (which they were) then we have to correct
for the fact that the metronome scale is slightly biased towards numbers
that are exact multiples of 6:
50 n
52 n
54 y
56 n
58 n
60 y
63 n
66 y
69 n
72 y
76 n
80 n
84 y
88 n
92 n
96 y
100 n
104 n
108 y
112 n
116 n
120 y
126 y
132 y
138 y
144 y
152 n
12/27 - where we would only expect about 5/30
I've gotten rid of very slow or very fast tempi outside of the range in
the music above.
We can ask a number of questions. Firstly, is there any evidence that
these composers favoured multiples of 6? The answer is plainly 'no' - at
least for this data. There is a slight bias towards multiples of 6,
relative to Maelzel's scale, but it is emphatically not statistically
significant (Fisher's exact test). Either for the individual pieces, or
for all composers taken together. And even if one fails to allow for
multiple comparisons.
Of course, if you looked at more works by more composers, the idea that
there is a bias towards multiples of 6 might turn out to be true. But even
if this is so, the bias seems likely to be slight.
Secondly, is there any evidence that these composers used non-multiples of
6 when they wanted to? Here, the answer is emphatically 'yes', because
they do. Frequently. This is a much easier assertion to prove, because we
only need to find a few examples, and there are many.
One objection could be that composers set main tempos using multiples of
6, but used between-metronomes in order to indicate slight variations on
the tempo. For example, in Beethoven's 9th, he indicates 60 then ups the
tempo slightly to 63 - he could just as well have written 'poco piu mosso'
(I don't have the score, but there are plenty of articles where
Beethoven's metronome markings are analysed to death). But this doesn't
stand up to scrutiny. Often the primary tempo marking at the start of a
movement in these pieces is a non-multiple of 6.
Prof. Pizka wrote:
'That is the reason, why our great composers used M=60, M=72, M=108 etc.'
and
'Mahler was probably the first using many "between metronomes"'
Beethoven's 9th was completed in 1824
Berlioz symphonie Fantastique in 1830
Verdi's requiem in 1874
Tchaik V in 1888
Mahler's 1st was premiered in 1889
Personally, I rate Beethoven, Verdi, Berlioz and even Tchaikovsky pretty
highly. What's good enough for them is certainly good enough for me.
I don't have any Mendelssohn scores, but the book 'Mendelssohn, Goethe,
and the Walpurgis night' By John Michael Cooper (on google books) gives
examples of his metronome markings, and he frequently uses non-multiples
of 6.
Prof. Pizka, can you find us some works with a substantial number of
metronome markings, all of them multiples of 6? I think the assertion is
yours to prove rather than mine to refute.
Kit
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Re: [Hornlist] metronome multiples of 6 [was: Mendelssohn Nocturne]
In my previous post I gave a link to a page about the development of the metronome: Maelzel, who patented the metronome in 1815 apparently came up with the scale. He appears to have been admirably methodical about it, doing experiments to see what the smallest noticeable difference in tempo is, at various speeds - in psychophysics this is called the 'just noticeable difference' and my understanding was that Weber and Fechner didn't do their work on this until the 2nd half of the 19th century. He came up with the metronome scale we still appear to use. Some of Beethoven's metronome markings appear to come from adjacent positions on the scale (i.e. not just the left-hand side). In the 9th, he apparently specifies both 60 and 63bpm. So I don't think the idea that older metronomes only had half the scale is likely to be correct - and even then it wouldn't explain 6bpm increments. I point out that I'm not an expert - just working my way through the question (most of this was unfamiliar to me before yesterday). Kit > Uh, yes, you quoted all the numbers I have on all my metronomes - > what's that got to do with multiples of 6? > > I make it a point to give a list of all the traditional metronome > markings, the very ones you've listed, to aid in their practice - no > need to increase by 1 beat per minute, I agree. > > -S- > > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Greg Campbell > wrote: >> Steve Freides wrote: >>> >>> I don't see his point - what's so special about multiples of 6? >>> >> >> In this age of digital metronomes, many people don't remember the >> "traditional" graduations on the metronome. These graduations were set >> up so >> that each "click" of the metronome represented about a 4-5% increase in >> tempo. The faster the tempo, the further away from each other the >> numbers >> get. Consequently, quite a few are multiples of 6. Although Hans's >> metronome >> must not, every mechanical metronome I've ever owned includes a notch >> for >> 63: >> >> 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 63, 66, 69, 72. 76, 80, 84, >> 88, >> 92, 96, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 152, 160, 168, >> 176, 184, 192, 200, 208 (I have one that goes to 216, the metronome >> equivalent of "going to eleven", I suppose.) >> >> Thinking about it, it seems like the mostly commonly marked tempos in >> music >> before the digital-metronome-era were the numbers on the left side of >> the >> metronome (40, 44, 48... every other one from the list above). Maybe the >> earliest mechanical metronomes had only half the graduations of tempo of >> 20th century metronomes. >> >> I feel sorry for the poor students who are practicing working a passage >> up >> to tempo with a digital metronome, moving the tempo up only 1 beat per >> minute each time through. You'll run out of endurance before you ever >> get up >> to tempo! >> >> Greg >> >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] metronome multiples of 6 [was: Mendelssohn Nocturne]
In my previous post I gave a link to a page about the development of the metronome: Maelzel, who patented the metronome in 1815 apparently came up with the scale. He appears to have been admirably methodical about it, doing experiments to see what the smallest noticeable difference in tempo is, at various speeds - in psychophysics this is called the 'just noticeable difference' and my understanding was that Weber and Fechner didn't do their work on this until the 2nd half of the 19th century. He came up with the metronome scale we still appear to use. Some of Beethoven's metronome markings appear to come from adjacent positions on the scale (i.e. not just the left-hand side). In the 9th, he apparently specifies both 60 and 63bpm. So I don't think the idea that older metronomes only had half the scale counts for anything. I point out that I'm not an expert - just working my way through the question (most of this was unfamiliar to me before yesterday). Kit > Uh, yes, you quoted all the numbers I have on all my metronomes - > what's that got to do with multiples of 6? > > I make it a point to give a list of all the traditional metronome > markings, the very ones you've listed, to aid in their practice - no > need to increase by 1 beat per minute, I agree. > > -S- > > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Greg Campbell > wrote: >> Steve Freides wrote: >>> >>> I don't see his point - what's so special about multiples of 6? >>> >> >> In this age of digital metronomes, many people don't remember the >> "traditional" graduations on the metronome. These graduations were set >> up so >> that each "click" of the metronome represented about a 4-5% increase in >> tempo. The faster the tempo, the further away from each other the >> numbers >> get. Consequently, quite a few are multiples of 6. Although Hans's >> metronome >> must not, every mechanical metronome I've ever owned includes a notch >> for >> 63: >> >> 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 63, 66, 69, 72. 76, 80, 84, >> 88, >> 92, 96, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 152, 160, 168, >> 176, 184, 192, 200, 208 (I have one that goes to 216, the metronome >> equivalent of "going to eleven", I suppose.) >> >> Thinking about it, it seems like the mostly commonly marked tempos in >> music >> before the digital-metronome-era were the numbers on the left side of >> the >> metronome (40, 44, 48... every other one from the list above). Maybe the >> earliest mechanical metronomes had only half the graduations of tempo of >> 20th century metronomes. >> >> I feel sorry for the poor students who are practicing working a passage >> up >> to tempo with a digital metronome, moving the tempo up only 1 beat per >> minute each time through. You'll run out of endurance before you ever >> get up >> to tempo! >> >> Greg >> >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Yamaha Horn Model's 664 & 764 - Anyone have one or use one for college or Professionally?
I have a 664 and it's a large orchestral horn - not what I would want for chamber music. Otherwise, it's very nice, though slightly stuffy about the top range. When I discussed this at Paxmans they nodded sagely and said that it was a known problem - the 668 is much better in this respect. I have also heard that the 664 is 'professional quality' and apparently mine was owned by a professional before me. Kit > Dear Hornlisters, > > Just curious if anyone has or does currently use and older Yamaha model > horn > # 664 or 764 ? > > I have heard various things online about these being really reliable great > Yamaha horns and not really student or intermediate models as they were > originally claimed to be when > first advertised. I am looking into getting one of these and fixing it up > as a second horn for Chamber music and backup to my Custom Yamaha Nickel > 862 > horn. > > IF anyone has any knowledge about these horns I would like to hear from > you > on or off list. > > Cheers, > Benjamin Irvine-Scott > > bisonh...@gmail.com > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mendelssohn Nocturne
I'm slightly baffled too. Here's a metronome with 63bmp marked out. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Metronome_Nikko.jpg And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electronic-metronome(scale).jpg And another: http://blogs.learnnc.org/instructify/files/2007/10/metronome-online.jpg And here's a page about Maelzel's metronome scale: http://www.greschak.com/polytempo/ptts.htm Rather than constant numerical increments (e.g. multiples of 6) the gradations become larger for higher tempos. For example, there's a bigger difference between 40 and 42 bpm than there is between 200 and 202 bpm. So Maelzel's scale contains 40 and 42bpm, but jumps from 200 to 208, not to 202. I can't comment on the page's scholarship, but the scale attributed to Maelzel does seem to correspond to the scale on most metronome pictures that I can find. Around the 60bpm point, the jumps are 56-58-60-63-66-69 Also, if a piece sounds too fast at 66bpm and too slow at 60, why not aim to play it at 63? Or 64, for that matter? Did I misunderstand what you meant, Prof. Pizka? Kit > On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Martin Grainger > wrote: >> Hi all, >> Did the show yesterday and all went fine - many thanks for all comments. >> Prof. - I see your point with regards metronome marks, I was just quoting >> what was written on the page. Â Strictly speaking you can of course have >> a >> tempo of 63 beats per minute, but I agree it makes more sense if it's a multiple of 6. > > I don't see his point - what's so special about multiples of 6? > > -S- > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Acoustical studies
Do you have any theories as to why adding weight on the valve caps appears to make a difference? Kit > Martin Bender asked, "Would anyone be aware of any scientific studies > which > might shed some > light on the acoustical damping effects of additional mass on a > vibrating air column? I've been scouring the nooks and crannies of the > internet to no avail." > > I don't know specifically of any studies, except one informal one, which > I'll explain further. However, I believe that there have been studies > done > at Conn-Selmer about this, and I've heard rumors of Yamaha having done > some > work on it, as well. You could ask them if this is true, and if the > results > are available. > > Back in 1999, I had some heavyweight valve caps for sale that were made by > Chuck McAlexander of the Brass Lab in NYC. They were in two different > weights, and there were sets for Elkhart 8D's and Eastlake 8D's. We took > them over to Lawson and Bruce did a spectrum study on an 8D with and > without > the full set of 4 caps. The results were significant, and the upper > overtone series were clearly enhanced with the heavy caps. Shortly after > that, I took them to the IHS Symposium at University of Georgia, and a few > players tried them out. The concensus result was that while the caps > really > seemed to lock in the overtone series, the extra resistance was quite > tiring. However, most of the benefit could be gotten, with little of the > extra resistance, if one used a heavy cap only on the 4th valve. (Remeber > that the mass of the 8D's 4th valve casing is much less than that of the > 1-2-3 valves.) > > It's not that scientific, really, but it is a small study and the results > seemed signficant and consistent. Since then, my experience is that heavy > caps come and go in popularity. There does seem to be an acceptable range > of weights (much as there is an acceptable range of tapers) for a horn, > outside of which it does not perform efficiently. A horn that is not > already too heavy may well benefit from a small amount of weight added at > a > critical spot. Just where that spot is, how much weight to add, and what > the results will be are unpredictable because there do not seem to be > sufficient studies showing results. Usually when you modify an instrument > you only get a benefit if you give something up. You don't get something > for nothing! > > -- > Regards, > > Dave Weiner > Brass Arts Unlimited > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn
"That is of course as long as the end of the mouthpiece and the venturi line up (which, if the rate of taper is the same, they should)." I agree that they should line up. However, the size of the gap between them will be different depending on the diameter of the end of the mouthpiece shank. As an aside, I have an old Czech horn (c. 1900) that can swallow a standard mouthpiece all the way up to the cup. Kit > You can have whatever length of taper you'd like. It's the rate of > taper that's important. If the rate of taper of both the leadpipe and > the mouthpice are identical (which is an agreed upon standard), then > your mouthpiece could go in .1" or 2" and it won't make any > difference. That is of course as long as the end of the mouthpiece > and the venturi line up (which, if the rate of taper is the same, they > should). > > > > On Apr 30, 2009, at 7:13 AM, Tina Barkan wrote: > >> Paul - >> You say, "The end of the mouthpiece should ideally come right to the >> beginning of the ventura. If these line up, they provide a taper >> that expands from the bore of the mouthpiece to the cylindrical >> tubing of the horn without gaps or obstructions." >> >> If the negative taper can vary from 1/2 to 1" long is there anyway >> to know for sure that the end of the mouthpiece actually comes right >> to the beginning of the ventura? If one buys a custom leadpipe does >> it come with it's own custom mouthpiece? I'm guessing but it seems >> to me that the length of the negative taper may be one of the specs >> that custom leadpipe manufacturers change in order to make their >> great leadpipes. All of the stock mouthpiece manufacturers must be >> making some assumption about the length of the negative taper and >> this length may not correspond to the length of the negative taper >> of a custom leadpipe. >> >> Thanks, >> Tina >> >> >> On Apr 29, 2009, at 11:09 PM, corno...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> HI Steve, >>> >>> Here is a very basic answer to your question. >>> >>> A lead pipe has three primary physical components that are important >>> to its acoustical design. >>> >>> They are: >>> >>> A. the negative taper. This is the 1st section (aprox. 1/2 to 1" >>> long) >>> that the mouthpiece fits into. >>> >>> It is called the negative taper because, to accept the taper of >>> the mouthpiece >>> shank, the taper measures from large to smaller. This is in >>> opposition >>> to the main mouthpipe taper, which tapers from smaller to larger. >>> >>> B. The Ventura. This is the smallest cross section measurement of >>> the mouthpipe, >>> where the negative taper and the main taper meet. >>> >>> C. The main taper of the mouthpipe. This is the portion of the >>> mouthpipe taper that goes from the ventura to the beginning of the >>> cylindrical tubing. >>> >>> >>> The end of the mouthpiece should ideally come right to the >>> beginning of >>> the ventura. >>> If these line up, they provide a taper that expands from the bore of >>> the mouthpiece to the cylindrical tubing of the horn without gaps or >>> obstructions. >>> >>> If the mouthpiece goes past the ventura, or not far enough into the >>> mouthpipe to meet it, response and intonation will generally be >>> degraded. >>> >>> Paul Navarro >>> Custom Horn >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tina.barkan%40gmail.com >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.com > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn
You could try some thread and beeswax round the shank of the mouthpiece. Kit > I am now the not-very-proud owner of Selman double horn, best > described here in the past as "cheap." Dillon had one for $95, and > I've been looking for something to have around to lend out, in > particular to our neighbor a few doors down who has expressed interest > in playing the French Horn. She's currently playing one of my 4D's, > and I am continuing to try to get her to go to a real horn teacher > but, so far, no luck. > > Of course, I made a point of specifically asking if the receiver size > was standard, and was told it was, so I bought the horn over the > phone. It arrived today, and my mouthpiece goes _way_ too far into > it. > > 1) Is this non-standard, bigger size some other standard I don't know > about, i.e., can I get an mpc to fit it? > > 2) Is this (bigger receiver) the norm for Selman horns? > > 3) Will a thicker ferrule or other cheap fix be sufficient or will it > cause more problems than it will solve? > > I know, I know, you told me so, and yes, you were right. :) Still, if > it ends up costing me another $100 to get it fixed, it will be worth > it to have another working, albeit cheap, double in the house. > > -S- > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Doubt about transposing
Just to be contrary, one person know learned to play in C and still feels more comfortable in that key... When we play quintets she often plays the bassoon parts and I believe her when she says she finds it easier to play in C than F. As I recall, her explanation was that she played in a German brass choir when she was younger, and most of the music was in C. In my view, there's nothing wrong with using tricks to help you transpose, so long as the right notes come out. Kit (who struggles with many transpositions) > I got it! > > Always F. Always F! > > Can you say a little be more of those exceptions (Professor Schmutzig and > Prof I.M.G.)? > > Thanks > > 2009/4/23 John Dutton > >> quote: But what if the player is using a single Bb horn (4 valves)? >> The >> intonation will be the same if you think in F or in Bb... What's the >> best >> choice in this case? >> >> >> >> You are making this much harder than it needs to be. A horn player >> ALWAYS reads his part with reference to horn in F. If the part is >> written out in Eb he transposes. If the part is written out in Bb or >> H he transposes. If he is playing a single Bb in three valve or four >> valve or the Sansone model five valve, the reference is still horn in >> F and he transposes. If he is playing a Schmid triple with high Eb he >> is still thinking like an F horn player. The only exceptions are >> Professor Schmutzig who passed away several months ago and Prof I.M.G. >> who no one is really sure what is going to happen. >> >> The Jack Attack! >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ice horn - pipe bending
> Hello Kit, > > You have me very curious about this. > Did you freeze the pipe with the toffee inside it ? I had a bit of brass tubing about 12mm diameter and 40cm long, and I annealed it before starting (heat it until it glows dull red, then cool it). Then I drilled a shallow hole in a bit of wood to hold the pipe vertical and to act as a plug. When I say toffee, all I did was boil some sugar and water until the sugar went glassy. To test this, you get a glass of cold water and drop a teaspoonful of the mixture into the water. As the mixture thickens, it gradually gets stiffer and stiffer and eventually ends up quite glassy and brittle. When it was about the consistency I thought would work (fairly stiff, but not too glassy) I took the mixture off the heat and stirred it to get rid of any large bubbles. Then when it looked like a clear syrup (just a few tiny bubbles) I poured it down the pipe and left it to cool at room temperature. I had to top up about 10% of the pipe due to shrinkage as it cooled. When it was tacky, I cooled it under a cold tap then left it for about half an hour until it was at room temperature. Then I bent it against a radiused piece of wood. I am making a jig to get exactly the curve I want, but what I can say is that it bends nicely. I've made some quite tight bends and apart from one place (where I think I may not have annealed properly) the tubing is very round with no ripples. Afterwards, I just left it in a tub of hot water and the sugar dissolves out. > Or just bend it at room temperature? This was part of my objective - I knew of the ice method but heard you had to work very quickly. I've also used a low-melting temperature alloy when I went to a trumpet-making workshop earlier this year, which is my only experience of instrument-making. I would like to make some crooks, so I looked into buying cerrobend/bendalloy, but it was very expensive and more toxic than I would want to use in the kitchen. Toffee is quite an interesting material in that it is actually a liquid that flows very slowly, but can also shatter if you hit it with a hammer. I think my boiled sugar was probably acting the same way. There were some cracking noises as I bent the pipe, but the toffee clearly wasn't just breaking at a few places otherwise the pipe wouldn't have bent smoothly, which it did. I figure there's some room left for experimentation. I think it might currently be too stiff and brittle for bending really wide-bore tubing like the bell of a horn. My pure sugar was probably a bit more glassy than was ideal. Fudge is basically the same recipe + lots of butter, but would probably be too soft. Presumably a recipe somewhere in between might be ideal. But... It worked fine for the tubing I was bending which is wide enough for me to make crooks for a horn, or another trumpet if the mood takes me. Kit > > Paul Navarro > Custom Horn > > > -Original Message- > From: Kit Wolf > To: horn...@yahoo.com; The Horn List > Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:28 pm > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Ice horn - pipe bending > > A new alternative: toffee. > > I've been meaning to try it for a while, but only got round to > experimenting this evening making a crook for a baroque trumpet. It > works > well. > > Kit > > >> Herb Foster wrote: >> >> "Hasn't ice been used as a filler for bending tubing?" >> >> Yes it has, although not straight ice. It is mixed with detergent to >> raise the melting temperature to around 40* F (around 5* C) and make > it >> more pliable. Otherwise the ice just shatters into sharp bits and it > can >> deform the outside of the bend. >> >> Stuart A. de Haro, >> >> Custom Horns, Leadpipes, Brass Repair and Modification >> >> (217) 377-1462 >> >> horn...@yahoo.com >> >> http://www.deharohorns.com >> >> >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk >> > > > -- > Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have > any > trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not > 'n802...' > > Sorry for any confusion > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ice horn - pipe bending
A new alternative: toffee. I've been meaning to try it for a while, but only got round to experimenting this evening making a crook for a baroque trumpet. It works well. Kit > Herb Foster wrote: > > "Hasn't ice been used as a filler for bending tubing?" > > Yes it has, although not straight ice. It is mixed with detergent to > raise the melting temperature to around 40* F (around 5* C) and make it > more pliable. Otherwise the ice just shatters into sharp bits and it can > deform the outside of the bend. > > Stuart A. de Haro, > > Custom Horns, Leadpipes, Brass Repair and Modification > > (217) 377-1462 > > horn...@yahoo.com > > http://www.deharohorns.com > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Yamaha 662 Horn
I have a 664 (the model that replaced the 662), and the only doubles I've ever tried and preferred are the 666, 668 and Alex 103. The one thing I would fault it for is being slightly stuffy on the high end compared to the 668. I can't vouch for the 662 - at the end of the day you get good and bad horns of any make/model and you will have to play it to find which it is. Kit > Yup. I have a Yamaha 666, which is what they made in this line > between '80 and '85, when they started the 668. It's a great horn. > > -S- > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Jay Kosta wrote: >> See this page for info from Yamaha about the YHR-662 - >> http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=24389 >> >> Basically it is - >> YHR-662 >> Â Years: 1974-1980 >> Â Key: Â F/Bb >> Â Bore: Â .469" >> Â Bell Throat: Large >> Â Bell Material: Yellow Brass >> Â Detachable Bell: No >> Â Wrap: Kruspe >> Â Finish: Lacquer >> Â Current Model: YHR-668 >> >> --- >> >> I play a 668N and am happy with it - Yamaha has a very good reputation >> for >> the quality of their instruments. >> >> I suggest contacting the seller and asking about what exactly was done >> for >> the 'reconditioning'. Specifically about whether valve leakage was >> tested >> - if the valves need repair, that could get expensive. If the valves >> work >> properly, and have decent compression, then it seems like a good price. >> >> Both of my double horns were bought used - first a very well used 'Army >> surplus' King double, and later the 668N that was privately owned - >> neither horn had major problems, and both are still doing well for me. >> >> Jay Kosta >> Endwell NY >> --- >> Michael Levin micnike1 at sbcglobal.net >> Thu Mar 19 08:39:37 CDT 2009 >> >> Hey Everyone! >> >> I'm a senior in high school looking to buy a horn for college. Â I'm not >> planning on being a music major, but still want to play at a high level >> in >> college. >> >> I've tried searching the web for information on Yamaha 662 horns. >> Â There >> is one for sale on hornplayer.net that has been reconditioned for under >> $1000, but there really isn't too much information about it all. Â Does >> anyone know how good of a horn that would be for me? Â Any other >> opinions >> on it? >> >> Or is there any better horn you can think of for college? Â I know there >> are tons of opinions out there, but I would hopefully want to buy one >> that >> would run me, hopefully, under $1000. >> >> Thanks for all of your help, >> Michael Levin >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Pictures of compensating horns
There are a few compensating horns marked on this site: http://www.horn-u-copia.net/display.php?selby=where%20instrument="French%20Horn"; I don't know whether the pictures are detailed enough for your purposes, but they generally show both the front and back of the horn so you can see the little slides. Kit > I would appreciate links to pictures of compensating double (or > triple) French Horns - someone asked me about how this works, and I > believe I explained correctly but, as they say, a picture is worth a > thousand words. In particular, something that clearly shows the > little extra sections for the valve slides when the horn is played in > F, as that is the most unique part of the way the things works in my > mind. > > Thanks in advance, and feel free to reply on- or off-list as you wish. > I poked around on the Internet for a while and couldn't find even one > good picture, but I suspect some may be at web sites in languages > other than my own. > > -S- > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipe Advice
> > subject: [Hornlist] Leadpipe Advice > On 2009/03/08, "Bill Gross" wrote: > >> What is really humbling is to realize that Leitgeb premiered all the >> Mozart >> concertos on a valve less horn, and with a mouthpiece made of curved >> sheet >> metal. > > How narrow would the rims have been? > For comparison, I use a Pizka. Here are some close-ups of one of my mouthpieces: http://www.flickr.com/photos/flowtik/sets/72157607253350221/ It's surprisingly playable for such a narrow diameter mouthpiece, though the low range is very weak. The rim is press-fit to the cup, with no solder involved. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lube Jobs
KB wrote: > I'm not a fan of animal based fats on a horn I once came across an antique horn that smelled like a dead thing, and I've tried a few other older horns that are a bit whiffy. Would I be right in guessing this is probably the cause? Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Elkhart 8D
I agree entirely with both of you.
My point is that if the OP buys a worn 8d, it may turn out to be a very
expensive mistake. If what he really wants to do is _learn_ horn repair it
doesn't matter if the horn never ends up playable. Take some dents out.
Accidentally put a hole in it then learn about annealing. Patch it.
Desolder and resolder some joints. For $100 it would still be a cheap
learning experience. I guess an old trumpet or other instrument might be
cheaper.
Kit
> I'll echo what Richard said. I troll eBay regularly looking for horns
> that I can fix up and re-sell for a profit. But, the thing is, I never
> buy any because for the most part, they go for too much in their decrepit
> state to leave any room for profit. That's with me doing the work myself,
> and I'm fast and good. Case in point, I had a silver plated 6D a few
> years ago, pretty leaky and not a great player but kinda cool looking
> because of the silver. Early '50s. I got 800.00 for it on eBay. A
> couple of years later I got another one, same thing. I completely rebuilt
> the valves - tight baby!, replaced the leadpipe and a couple of slide
> crooks with brand new silver plated ones to match. Took out all the
> dents. It played great! I got 825.00 for it on eBay. Now, maybe that
> was about right (this was a few years ago), but the first one certainly
> went for way too much!
>
> - Steve Mumford
>
> -
>
> Kit Wolf wrote:
>
>
> Look on Ebay and get a really beat up horn for $100 - or less. The more
> beat-up, the more you'll learn. And it won't matter so much if you make
>
> a serious mistake.
>
> --
> and then Richard wrote:
>
> In my experience, none of these assertions is valid. First off, smashed up
> old
> 8D's go for ridiculously high prices. For less than $100 you can get any
> number of single F horns except Yamaha's. Many can be rewarding learning
> projects. When you get done, you may be able to sell it for a bit more
> than you
> paid for it. Any double horn you pick up for less than $100 will be a
> nightmare
> to repair and probably won't be playable when you get done.
>
> Horns that are complete disasters take a lot of experience to untangle.
> You
> learn more by starting with horns that need relatively minor repairs and
> work
> you way up to progressively more complex situations. Note that only about
> 1/2 -
> 2/3 of the junkers I pick up can be restored to where I'm willing to list
> them. The rest await the torch where they are disassembled for parts or
> recycling. ("NO DISASSEMBLE! NO DISASSEMBLE!" - Johnny 5)
>
> I have a few horns listed on hornplayer.net, and my write-ups give some
> idea
> (simplified) of what I had to do to get them to market. Look for my two
> King and
> one Yamaha doubles. I also have a couple of very good playing single F
> horns
> there, that have been languishing for over a year.
>
> Regards,
> Richard Hirsh
>
>
>
>
> ___
> post: horn@music.memphis.edu
> unsubscribe or set options at
> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk
>
--
Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any
trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...'
Sorry for any confusion
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] elkhart 8D
> I'm planning on doing music repair when i get older, so a beat up > 8D would be a perfect project. Look on Ebay and get a really beat up horn for $100 - or less. The more beat-up, the more you'll learn. And it won't matter so much if you make a serious mistake. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
Thanks Daniel, I'm starting to agree with Martin that I've been thinking about it too much... I'm happy to accept it's probably down to chance. ~~ I wrote to a friend who plays historical instruments for a living, and just got the following reply: "[Out of a collection of 200 horns] there are half a dozen with the valve order 1/2 - 1 - 1 1/2. They did that in Bavaria. No particular reason to choose one or the other really, but the third valve is always 1 1/2 because it's the additional extra that's not so necessary. In Belgium they used two valves all the way up to the end of the nineteenth century." That sample of 200 horns include rather a lot of hunting horns so it seems safe to conclude that the 1/2, 1, 1 1/2 arrangement is not particularly rare, and that it was used for horns as well as other instruments. I just had another look at some of the older posts and noted that Bavarian instruments were brought up before. Time to move on to other things, I think, Kit > - Message from c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk - > >> >> I just don't think the explanation is complete. > > In physics there is a very important mechanism called "symmetry > breaking": a physical system may set down in a state which breaks the > symmetry of the general laws it obeys to. In many cases, which > particular state is chosen is essentially a matter of chance. You > can't "explain" why, for example, the preferred hand for most people > turned out to be the right hand, rather than the left. > > Daniel > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
The search term is 'catholic fingering' + whatever instrument you're interested in. The historic brass society has an article on it: The Catholic Fingering First Valve Semitone Reversed Valve Order in Brass Instruments and Related Valve Constructions by Joe R. Utley and Sabine K. Klaus, 2003 Historic Brass Society Journal vol. 15 Unfortunately, it's not a journal I have access to. Kit > And another one: > > http://www.usd.edu/smm/Brass/Cornets/Graves/5257/5257Gravescornet.html > > Kit > > >> http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/misc/Livain-fr-horn.jpg >> >> and >> >> http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Senecaut/Senecaut-P-2-valve-FH.jpg >> >> Both of which have the tone valve 1st. >> >> But! >> >> http://www.usd.edu/smm/UtleyPages/DoublePistonValves/DoublePistonValveChecklist.html >> >> They're not horns, but they clearly show a degree of flexibility in the >> assignments of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. Even in 3-valve instruments. >> >> You can't quite tell for certain from the pictures whether it's possible >> to rule out somebody misplacing the slides when reassembling the >> instruments. But personally I think it's unlikely. >> >> Kit >> >> > > > -- > Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any > trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' > > Sorry for any confusion > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
And another one: http://www.usd.edu/smm/Brass/Cornets/Graves/5257/5257Gravescornet.html Kit > http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/misc/Livain-fr-horn.jpg > > and > > http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Senecaut/Senecaut-P-2-valve-FH.jpg > > Both of which have the tone valve 1st. > > But! > > http://www.usd.edu/smm/UtleyPages/DoublePistonValves/DoublePistonValveChecklist.html > > They're not horns, but they clearly show a degree of flexibility in the > assignments of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. Even in 3-valve instruments. > > You can't quite tell for certain from the pictures whether it's possible > to rule out somebody misplacing the slides when reassembling the > instruments. But personally I think it's unlikely. > > Kit > > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/misc/Livain-fr-horn.jpg and http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Senecaut/Senecaut-P-2-valve-FH.jpg Both of which have the tone valve 1st. But! http://www.usd.edu/smm/UtleyPages/DoublePistonValves/DoublePistonValveChecklist.html They're not horns, but they clearly show a degree of flexibility in the assignments of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd valves. Even in 3-valve instruments. You can't quite tell for certain from the pictures whether it's possible to rule out somebody misplacing the slides when reassembling the instruments. But personally I think it's unlikely. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
> Kit, we do not live in the middle ages nor in the time of the Romans nor in Germany or Austria after WW1, when they also drove on left side. Neither do we live in the time of 2-valved piston horns. But the question we're asking, is where and when do conventions originate? We can't discuss these things without looking to the past. > Most > adopted the right side drive, while we horn players stay on the left hand > horn playing, as it is easier to play into your next player (rank wise). A whole new question... I can think of at least 2 other reasons why we might hold the horn with the bell facing to the right and use our left hands for the keys. 1) For hand stopping, it's natural to want to use the most dextrous hand, which for most people is the right hand. Hand stopping was well established before valves were introduced, and so they were given to the left hand. If valves had been introduced before hand-stopping, then I think we'd be playing mirror-horns. 2) With a wide-coiled hunting horn, if you hold it in the most comfortable manner using your right hand, the bell falls to the right. I believe Baroque horn players often played with the bells facing up or played instruments that weren't much like modern hunting horns, so perhaps this last point was not relevant. It is awkward for two hornists to play with the bells facing each other because of the weird acoustic interactions, so there is another very good reason for individual horns not to break the bell-to-the-right convention. But I would wager that if valves had been invented before hand-stopping, we would play instruments with the bells facing left and our right hands on the valves. We would sit on the left hand side of the stage (from our perspective) and with any luck, the trumpets, trombones and tubas would sit on the right. > Pictures in books cannot convince me regarding two valved horns with valves in reverse order, I haven't seen a picture of a valved horn with the valves in reverse order, but I agree with your scepticism about illustrations. I'd want to see one in the metal. > because if the shanks are equal long (see modern > doublers), both slides fit into each others shanks. They also require identical spacing between them... Older horns were built by hand and my experience is that the slides fit where they touch. Even for a single slide, the shanks can differ in length by a millimeter or two. If you turn the slide over and insert it back into the shanks, you generally see a gap of a few millimeters between the end of the shank and the start of the wider tubing on the slide. You get a related effect if the tubing was not cut exactly perpendicularly. Any difference between the length of the shanks is doubled when you insert the slide backwards. If there is an 1/2 mm difference in their lengths, you see a 1mm gap when you insert the slide. > Nobody can prove, if > this was accidentally or voluntarily. The photographers have no knowledge > about that anyway. We mixed up one colleagues slides on his double. He looked at his horn because of the intonation troubles, but did not find out why. Yes, but this was by definition a modern horn as double horns didn't exist until 1897. We're talking about much earlier instruments, which weren't built as accurately. If you can find an early horn with reversed valves and you can't swap the first and 2nd slides round, then I would personally regard this as strong evidence that it was built that way. > So there is only the musical reason which counts in favour of the rowing 1/1 > & next 1/2 step. I have explained that, but you seem not to digest that. But > instead of digesting that, you hang on with unimportant arguments contra my > may-be not full adequate comparisons. I have digested what you have said. I agree with you entirely about the first valve being most important. I just don't think the explanation is complete. Look at an olympic podium. The person who is first (most important) comes in the middle. The second and third competitors stand to his right and left. So why not the important tone valve in the middle, the semitone valve for the index finger, and the tone & 1/2 valve for the ring finger? This is obviously silly, because the 2, 1, 3 order of olympic competitors is irrelevant to the order of the valves on a horn. What I'm pointing out is that the order 1,2,3 that your theory assumes, is equally arbitrary. It is possibly more intuitive, but not so overwhelmingly so that an inventor might not have considered reversing it to make a better instrument. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] The Wag
Self-correction - that should be Pip Eastop. Kit > A while back Pip Eastpop (a London player & teacher) was adapting a mute > (something like a silent-brass mute, as I recall) so that you could select > different effects by pressing keys. > > Kit > >> http://www.otheroom.com/namm07/images/wag.jpg >> >> http://www.otheroom.com/namm07/techno.html#continuum >> http://www.xpresense.com/ >> >> "The Wag" >> >> I wonder if this item could be used to open up a whole new world for >> the natural horn? >> :D >> >> Simon >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk >> > > > -- > Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any > trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' > > Sorry for any confusion > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 74, Issue 17
Hans Pizka wrote: > Well, why do we have right hand traffic ? _We_ don't have right hand traffic: in the UK we drive on the left. _You_ drive on the right, and so does most of Europe. But for once, this isn't British exceptionalism. It was the case over much of Europe before the Napoleonic era. The Czech/Slovak republics still drove on the left until about WWII and there are still some right hand drive vehicles on the road there. Same for Sweden and Finland. Roman cart tracks from one quarry show that the carts drove on the left - the heavier carts leading away from the mines left deeper ruts. > Because the majority are right handers. One theory is that the reason it's more 'natural' to walk or drive on the left, is because people are right handed. If you are passing someone you are wary of, it's more comfortable to have your sword hand closer to them. I've never quite followed this, because it means your adversary is also likely to be at an advantage. Most likely it was just a carefully thought out prejudice against left-handers... What does this have to do with the topic in hand? Firstly, it shows how easy it is to invent 'just-so' stories to explain why things are the way they are. It's much harder to tell whether those just-so stories are true. Secondly, it shows that conventions can reflect anomalous historical influences, rather than simply being the best way to do things. I'm interested to hear that there may be some horns with the 1st and 2nd valves reversed. My (limited) experience with pre-1900 instruments is that it's generally pretty obvious which way the slides go in. Even if you take the slide out of an older instrument and put it in upside down in the same position, it generally won't fit exactly. The slide will probably go in, but the wider tubing at the knuckle probably won't match up. Perhaps next time you see such an instrument you could look for us? Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: AW: [Hornlist] shortest valve slide
> Kit, didn´t you see my explanation, why the first valve came as a full > step > valve first ? Yes, I saw it. I don't think anything I've said contradicts it, and arguably it actually supports it. If the valve positions were fixed before the 3rd valve was introduced, then the explanation that the valves could only physically fit on the horn in their modern-day order is unlikely to be the correct one. So we need to look for a different explanation, and yours is the best. What your post doesn't entirely cover is that 1) there's no logical reason the physical order of the valves needs to correspond to their importance or the order they were introduced and 2) it's still quite interesting that the order of the main valves does seem to have been fixed so early. If the 2nd finger can move faster than the index finger as someone suggested, then it would make more sense to introduce the full tone slide for the middle finger and later add a half-step for the first finger, even if it historically makes more sense to introduce the full-tone slide before the semitone slide. I think the idea that the middle finger is stronger than the index is dubious, but if you think about it in this way then the problem does seem to be one of ergonomics as much as harmonics. At one point there was a debate over whether the early valved horn was meant to be played chromatically or whether the valves were just meant to facilitate crook changes. My understanding is that this has largely been debunked, but if it were true, then there'd be no strong reason to fix the order of the keys. You wouldn't need the 'muscle memory' that is necessary for playing chromatic scales, and aesthetic or acoustic considerations would be better reasons to set the valve-order than mere convention. Finally, if you look at almost any other mechanical device, such as typewriters, there was a long period of experimentation where 'anything goes' was the rule of the day and every machine had a different keyboard. As another example, I think I'm correct in saying that the order of the foot pedals on very early cars differed from one manufacturer to another. If none of the 2-valved instruments has its valves in the reverse order then I think we can infer there's a good reason for it. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] shortest valve slide
I have no real knowledge to contribute to the debate but if anybody's suggested looking at www.horn-u-copia.net then I missed it. It doesn't help answering the question, but the range and design of horns that has been produced over the past few centuries is dizzying and well worth a look. Some of them are very beautiful. Some not so... As far as I can determine they all have the valves in the usual order. I get the same feeling as when I look at early aircraft, designed before people knew what an aeroplane was meant to look like. And for some line-drawings of the really early valved horns: http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/earlval.htm As far as I can make out, the first and second valves have always been in the order they're in now. There was also a French system with an ascending third valve. I don't see a physical reason why the first and second valves couldn't have been reversed for early horns using the 2-valve system. The idea that the 2nd valve could only fit between the 1st and 3rd doesn't really scan when you only have 2 valves. And folks aren't usually prescient enough to sell a 2 valve horn that's taken into consideration the order the valves will have to fit together when somebody later invents a 3 valve horn. Perhaps you could put a pedometer on each key, to count which gets the most actuations over several months of playing. I'm betting it's the first valve, even in the chromatic age. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] The Wag
A while back Pip Eastpop (a London player & teacher) was adapting a mute (something like a silent-brass mute, as I recall) so that you could select different effects by pressing keys. Kit > http://www.otheroom.com/namm07/images/wag.jpg > > http://www.otheroom.com/namm07/techno.html#continuum > http://www.xpresense.com/ > > "The Wag" > > I wonder if this item could be used to open up a whole new world for > the natural horn? > :D > > Simon > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Dent Bags
A famous Aberystwyth horn player once happened to be going up a famous Aberystwyth hill (Cefn Llan, with a marked gradient of about 25% but much steeper in places) when the boot of his Morris Minor popped open and his horn went rolling backwards down the hill. It was in a Yamaha ABS/aluminium case with a polystyrene foam insert, and was undamaged. Personally I'd rather try to add padding and rucksack straps to the outside of a hard case than buy a gig bag. One problem is that the foam inserts in hard cases seem to be designed to fit different horns. One way I've seen round this problem is to put a plastic sheet over builder's expanding foam, then push the horn into it before it sets. Not very pretty, but seems to work. I think provided a horn has reasonably good support, if a hard case stays closed and undented the worst that is likely to happen is that the horn pops a joint. Kit > James M wrote > > I once read about a science teacher assigning a problem to his class. > The problem was to design a case or package to have a hen egg > dropped from third story window to the side walk below without > damage to the egg. Two students solved the problem. > Perhaps instead off getting an engineer to do the job, give the job to > high school students to protect the horn. > Just a thought. > > *** > I used to sponsor Physics Olympics at San Jose State. Students > from local high schools would compete in various events. One > involved encasing a raw egg so that it would be undamaged after > falling 15 meters. Parachutes were not allowed. Generally, > about half the entries were successful, so we awarded prizes > to the smallest, lightest containers. One year a successful entrant > dropped their egg inside a jar of peanut butter. I think that > would be the ideal way to protect a horn. > > Gotta go, > Cabbage > > > > ** > Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://www.dell.com/co > ntent/products/features.aspx/laptops_great_deals& > #63;c=us%26cs=19%26l=en%26s=dhs%26~ck=anavml) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Send music
Thanks, Kit > > Hi everybody- > > > Well, I've been composing and playing the horn ever since I was 13 or so, > had some success teaching in college and getting published. Although the > horn has been my main instrument (alas!) all my life, I've hardly ever > written anything for it- don't know why, it just never happened until now. > > I have just finished a short 3-movement duet for horns I call "Three > Inventons for Two Horns" paraphrased, if you will, from Bach's "15 > Two-part Inventions" (Nos. 1, 8 and 15), rather much in a > neo-classical-Baroque style. The movements are short and busy > but pleasant and not very difficult. Since they are taken from keyboard > music of the Baroque period you will not find slurs or dynamics, etc. > > I thought I would offer this duet free to the list as a pdf file. > If you would like a copy please e- mail me at the above address and write > " Send music" in the subject line. My spam filter will put you in the > dumpster and maybe write you back, which you can take as proof your > message got thru. I'll mail you the pdf. file and erase your e from my > list as soon as I can. Hope this works out. > > Regards to all, > > Otto Henry > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Embouchure
> environmental allergies can make the lips swell. This is what I do to maintain my embouchure:(1) I limit kiwis, fresh pinneapple, high oxalate foods, tomatoes & other shade vegetables. I've read > recommendations to avoid citrus fruits, but thankfully haven't noticed any problems from eating them myself. I think you've touched on the real issue with many dietary suggestions: people are different. I can eat oranges all day, but I know a girl who ends up in hospital just from the smell of one. Hans Pizka notices no ill effects from eating Kiwi fruit, but Kiwi fruit _is_ one of those foods that is known for causing allergies. Even when it comes to food intolerances, pseudoallergies (real reactions that are not technically allergies) or foods that are mild chemical irritants, there is likely to be a good deal of inter-individual variation. As I see it, the risk is that if you cut out all the foods that have ever caused bad reactions in other people, you would restrict yourself to a very limited diet. Conversely if you do react badly to something, then eating it certainly won't help your horn playing. The question is, how do you know whether you do have a problem with any particular food? Unless there is a very strong effect, I think it would be very hard to tell with any degree of certainty. My playing varies so widely from day to day - at least partly from changes in my practicing regime - that it would be well nigh impossible to detect a small effect. Look at the debate on food colourings and hyperactivity in children - it's been going on for over 30 years, but there are still people arguing over whether the link is real. And then there's the sheer number of foodstuffs you'd have to think about... Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Embouchure
This is a question that has interested me for some time, both with respect to the horn and other interests. I used to go to a climbing wall and it fascinated me that some days I could climb fairly hard overhangs, whereas other days even easy routes got the better of me. What really surprised me was that I generally couldn't predict in advance what sort of day it was going to be. Being able to climb a particular route - or else falling to the ground - is a slightly more objective measure than thinking 'I'm playing really well today' or 'I'm not at my best'. But I've always thought the same applied to the horn, and I did wonder whether diet or some similar factor was what made the difference. I never really got to the bottom of it, except that being dehydrated definitely doesn't seem to help. I have half-heartedly looked into sports nutrition, but a certain amount of it seems mumbo-jumbo and much of the rest probably isn't relevant to horn playing. Pasta, anyone? Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use 'c.j.l.w...@newcastle.ac.uk' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Das Horn bei Mozart
Have you looked at services such as www.lulu.com. I haven't used it myself, but if I understand correctly you just have to upload the text file and customers can order copies to be printed on-demand. The price-per unit seems reasonable. Kit > I tried that, but the outcome was a preorder of just 32 copies. If there > would be three hundred, it would look different. > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Auf dem strom und drang
I was under the impression that the moods associated with different keys were lost when we adopted equal-temperament tuning? If this is so, then neither absolute pitch nor perfect pitch would have much to do with it. Kit > ...and what of changes in the pitch of the basic tuning A in different > times > and places? > > > In a message dated 12/7/2008 1:21:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I have a book at school The Schubert Song Companion or some similar > title. > Each of his 600 plus songs gets about 1-2 pages of background and some > analysis. One of the appendixes (appendages?) categorizes by key. I will > try to > remember to bring the book home and share a few of its insights. > > Schubert definitely did associate certain emotions, moods and themes with > certain keys. I'm not so sure Eb is a sad and gloomy key, however, > Beethoven's > Eroica alone is enough to refute that. Of course longer crooks are > "darker," > but that is but one factor in the mix. > > I seem to remember in one of the Radio Lab stories a mention of how many > of > the great composers had perfect pitch (and what of synethsesia?). > > Steve Burian > > > _ > Suspicious message? Thereâs an alert for that. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_12 > 2008___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/eww02%40aol.com > > **Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom0010) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Music "Dictionary" Recommendation
> Paulatinamente, Slentando, Schulgerecht, Schmachtend, Fregiato, Fistula > Pastoralis, Capolavoro, Ghirbizzi, Gedackt, Gedent, Gedicht, Gefahrte, > Gegenbewegung etc., et al., ... all yours. All this on a little chip > smaller than the crud cake in your mouthpiece. What a world! Tempo di Twmpath? Then it's no good, Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Brahms Trio, Op. 40
> And I think it's time that I investigate Lilypond software for my own use. > A Lilypond question for anyone on this list who might use it - are there > any of us? How difficult would it be to take the existing ".ly" file for > horn and change it to print out the horn part for horn in C instead horn > in F or Eb? Not difficult. > I ask because it might be a good way for me to try to use Lilypond > software, which sounds interesting, for the first time, and I enjoy > reading > from concert pitch parts whenever I can. (It's really just the horn line > as > it appears in the piano score that I'd like to produce for myself.) I > learned computer programming this way - by taking someone else's work and > making small changes to it. I know basic Lilypond, and I'm extremely impressed at what it can do and at the quality of the scores it produces. If you can program then it should be pretty straightforward - it seems an order of magnitude easier than LaTex. There are some graphical interfaces too, though I've only ever written text files. If you're looking for a recording of the Brahms trio, try listening to the Ligeti trio too. It's not to everyone's tastes, but it is extremely impressive. I shall be looking up the trios Hans mentioned. For which, thanks. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Brahms Trio, Op. 40
Also, whilst we're on the subject I'm sure I once heard that Brahms played the horn. I know his father did, but the biography I've read doesn't seem to mention whether he did too. It seemed to make a lot of sense - I'm not generally a huge fan but I like his horn writing. Can anybody confirm or contradict? And to further parade my ignorance, was he the first person to write for horn/piano/violin? It's a perfect combination. Kit > >> Can anyone tell me a bit about the Brahms Trio, Opus 40? From what I >> see >> online, the instrumentation is definitely piano, violin, and a third >> instrument which can be horn, viola, or cello. How is this piece >> usually >> performed? >> >> I ask because, in the online sample pages I saw, the Andante first >> movement >> looks like I could play it and someone asked me about it earlier today. >> >> Here is a link to where I found it online: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/556eol >> >> or >> >> http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=980838&cart=3436094 >> 134647052&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title >> >> Thanks very much in advance. >> >> -S- >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk >> > > > -- > Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any > trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' > > Sorry for any confusion > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Brahms Trio, Op. 40
The piece is now out of copyright and can be downloaded for free: http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/piece-info.cgi?id=833 Kit > Can anyone tell me a bit about the Brahms Trio, Opus 40? From what I see > online, the instrumentation is definitely piano, violin, and a third > instrument which can be horn, viola, or cello. How is this piece usually > performed? > > I ask because, in the online sample pages I saw, the Andante first > movement > looks like I could play it and someone asked me about it earlier today. > > Here is a link to where I found it online: > > http://tinyurl.com/556eol > > or > > http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=980838&cart=3436094 > 134647052&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title > > Thanks very much in advance. > > -S- > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: Dynamic range - RE: [Hornlist] How to convince others
When the metronome was invented, Beethoven was delighted as it meant that he could objectify the meanings of his tempo markings. Clearly in the 21st century it's time for somebody to invent a dynamicomometer to tell students how loud they're playing ;-) > the perception of relative change is probably much stronger > than any absolute perception. As for the difference limen for dynamics... Looking it up in a reference book: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UqXS8CLJML4C&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=sound+intensity+difference+limen&source=web&ots=nr1dxzYxWL&sig=DbR_xlF9OiYTrUGJgQyUJPw4-I0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA99,M1 I see that it is < 0.2dB for volumes above 60dB, though this will depend on how you measure it and how you define it. I don't know what the dynamic range for a horn is, but I would imagine it's likely to be a few tens of decibels, in which case there will be very many discriminable intensities. In practice what I think we're saying is that you can play 4 notes in gradually increasing intensity between p and mp, and on each occasion a listener will be able to clearly tell that the volume has increased. But even if they were able to agree (without conferring) that the first note was 'p' and the last was 'mp', they would probably not be able to do so for the intermediate levels. I can imagine some of the minimalist composers having a lot of fun writing repeated notes with very slightly changing dynamics (p, mppp, mp, mmp, mppp, mp, p ...). I don't see a more obvious way of notating that sort of thing. I suspect you could get some very nice musical effects that way - if it hasn't been done already? I don't have ready access to the book on percussion. Is that the sort of thing it's talking about? ~ I apologise to the OP about not understanding the question. Kit > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >The use of or is not a request by the composer to increase > the >range of dynamic possibilities. It is a is a request for increased >control and definition of dynamics within the possible range. > >Carl Bangs > > Carl, your statement is preposterous and presented without any > support. That you say something does not make it so. Have you > queried a large sample of all composers who have ever used dynamic > markings with more than three p's of f's? Have you contacted or haqve > statements from _any_ of them? > > It may be that Carl's declaration is correct for _some_ uses, but > certainly not all, and probably not most. > > This web page > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_(music) > > gives some useful examples, mentioning the famous use of pp in > Tchaikovsky's Pathétique, and Ligeti's use of fff. > > Musical dynamics have been a neglected and poorly understood aspect of > music. Human perception is quite refined for both time and pitch, > capable (with training) of quantizing and discriminating very small > relations. But human perception of dynamic (whatever that means) is > crude, and the perception of relative change is probably much stronger > than any absolute perception. In ancient music dynamics were not > notated, whether or not dynamic interpretation was intended, and then > simple p and f were introduced, followed by mp, mf, and pp, ff, and > then their extensions. But almost no one has ever claimed (or > assumed) that more than about 6 dynamic levels can be discriminated by > listeners. See Gardner Read's reference in his _Music Notation_ to a > percussion part with 20 distinct dynamic levels. > > In the 19th and 20th centuries there was a general trend to create > larger and larger expressions. (In a perverse sense, even 20th C > minimalism does the same.) The pp of Tchaikovsky could seem to be > a request to play at a level outside the usual frame of orchstral > dynamics, so that the listener will hear the extreme piano as > something that an orchestra would not normally do, outside the > reference scale of what has been heard elsewhere in the symphony. > Dynamics and dynamic gestures are an aspect of expression. In the > Western Classical tradition they are rarely structural aspects the way > that theme, modulation, or interval sets generally are. There have > been exceptions, but I believe they have rarely been successful. > > By the way, Carl is well known to be the perpetrator of the 1932 > Lindbergh baby kidmapping as well as the cause of the recent stock > market collapse. But that I say something also does not make it so. > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at ht
[Hornlist] Tina Brain's Mozart concerto
A friend has a pleasant reduction of Mozart's 4th horn concerto for 2 horns by Tina Brain. Does anybody know where I can buy it? The part I saw was a photocopy, with a page number '92' on the bottom. I'm sure I could borrow it, but I like to buy music that's still in copyright. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] How to convince others
I'm not sure if I quite understand the question. You want to use this in one of your compositions? Or you've seen it somewhere else, in which case you just have to show people the music to convince them that it's real. I don't think it makes sense to think of dynamics in strict mathematical terms - an extra 10 decibels per 'F', or whatever. So if you translate it into English, presumably it means 'play as loud as humanly possible and then some' which is the same as 'F' means. And 'FFF' for that matter. I'm sure I've seen F written somewhere - I think Mahler though possibly Shostakovich? So I'm not saying that it's nonsense, but it is surely a bit of a tautology. Kit > Hey all, > I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to convince people. that > FF is a sometimes dynamic > > -- > Mathew James > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Programs and mutes
> *** > I used a cone-shaped mute, the only one that fits. > > Gotta go, > Cabbage I have a Yamaha practice mute that starts conical, but then tapers again towards the base. This could explain why my playing has all gone pear-shaped. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Single F horns - Conn 4D
>> Playing the single F horn, or playing more on the F side of a >> double is good practice; I play up to 4th line D of the F >> side of my 8D because I like the sound of that D on the F >> side of the 8D (as well as the C a second below). I have found myself playing more and more on the F-side, partly because of the sound and partly because it seems to give me better endurance. For example, if I have to hold a high-G for several bars I'll use the B-flat side to pitch it then change fingerings when I next have to breathe. Having said that, a fair proportion of my wrong notes are due to forgetting which side of the horn I'm using. But getting better. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Dangers of loud playing?
> Rehearsing a Mahler part at 1 am seems to be insane anyway. People doing > this should better stay in a home for mentally disturbed. Why aren´t they > able to organize their time (practise) during normal hours not after > mid-night ??? I think many of us will find that all too obvious. It probably depends largely on what type of house you live in, but I'm sure some of my neighbours would find even 5-9pm antisocial. I think Cabbage hit the nail on the head, but 1-3AM seems the ideal time to rehearse Mahler, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Khachaturian and a number of other composers I can think of... Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] A few Questions
> Looking to buy a new Horn, i play a Yamaha 664 > which has served me well Why do you want to change? Is it getting old and worn, or are you looking for something better? I have a Yamaha 664, and the only two horns I have played and preferred were the alex 103 and the Yamaha 668. I particularly liked the thumb-valve on the alex. Somehow I felt that it was designed to be used as a chromatic valve, rather than than as a 'mode' change valve - if this makes sense. The 668 is slightly easier to play at the top end than the 664. I eventually got a new mouthpiece which has fixed that problem. A lot of this is probably down to personal preference and the fact that I tend not to like the Geyer wrap. I have been told (and believe) that if I played one for any length of time I'd get used to the intonation. I had a very fun afternoon in Paxmans (London) who have a display rack full of 20-30 french horns. If they were unhappy for me to play my way through the entire shop's stock, they didn't show it. I tried several Conns, but didn't find any that I preferred. I quite liked some of the triples, but not their price tags. Bearing in mind that I'm an amateur, I see no need to change instruments. Kit -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Bass Cleff for Dummies???
Du Pre "Vingt etudes pour le cor grave" It doesn't explain the old v. new notation, but it uses old notation throughout and gives lots of practice reading and playing bass cleff. As for scales... Surely he can transpose them down an octave if he isn't playing them over that range already. Kit > I have a friend who is struggling w/ bass cleff. He's plays high horn so > he rarely gets an opportunity to work on bass cleff. It would be so, so > nice to find a "Bass Cleff for Dummies" style book w/ a simple explanation > of old notation vs new, easy tunes & drills, scales, etc. in one volume > for the horn player who has never studied bass cleff. Anyone have > recommendations? > > Valerie > > > Hotel pics, info and virtual tours. Click here to book a hotel online. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iiflKGWNwrMeXduLntfPFkTOv42CxwVI4ufWios9EGKh1P0qQ/ > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/c.j.l.wolf%40newcastle.ac.uk > -- Sometimes my Email program gives the wrong return address. If you have any trouble replying to me, use '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and not 'n802...' Sorry for any confusion ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Peter and the Wolf
It has been something of an ambition of mine to play this, simply because my name is 'wolf'. Unfortunately the only version I've played had only one horn part, and the wolf theme was left out altogether. It got a lot easier when I found there were 2 parts in F, and I had been playing the Cor-Anglais part for several rehearsals. Kit > On a lighter note. I played a performance of Peter and the > Wolf 20 some years ago where the other two horns were Dave DeWolfe and > Susan Wolff. I was the only non wolf! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:46 AM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: Horn Digest, Vol 66, Issue 12 > > Send Horn mailing list submissions to > horn@music.memphis.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Horn digest..." > > > Please edit replies to include only relevant text. Please DO NOT include > the entire digest in your reply. For more netiquette information, see: > > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html > > Today's Topics: > >1. RE: Marching Instruments (Richard) >2. Re: Ion Balu Stopped Mute (John Schreckengost) >3. Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >4. Re: Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >5. Re: Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >6. Re: Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >7. RE: Peter & the Wolf (Tim Costen) >8. RE: Peter & the Wolf (Tim Costen) >9. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Dan Phillips) > 10. RE: Peter & the Wolf (Jeremy Cucco) > 11. RE: Peter & the Wolf (Jeremy Cucco) > 12. RE: Peter & the Wolf (Jeremy Cucco) > 13. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Eric James) > 14. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Paul Mansur) > 15. Re: Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 16. Re: Peter & the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 17. Peter and the Wolf (Luke Zyla) > 18. Re: Peter and the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 19. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Paul Mansur) > 20. Re: Peter and the Wolf (Luke Zyla) > 21. Re: Peter and the Wolf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 22. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Ben Reidhead) > 23. Re: Peter & the Wolf (Richard V. West) > 24. Re: Peter & the Wolf (David Goldberg) > 25. RE: Peter and the Wolf (Bill Gross) > > > -- > > message: 1 > date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:31:18 -0500 > from: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > subject: RE: [Hornlist] Marching Instruments > > I think Chris Wilhjelm is on target about the Willson/Getzen > instruments. The horn mouthpiece adapters just don't work, but a cornet > mouthpiece will. I don't believe Getzen makes any instruments anymore, > but imports and stencils. Willson is quite a reputable brass maker from > Switzerland. Their web site: http://willsonbrass.com/ > > If you want to play with a horn mouthpiece, get a Bb marching French > Horn. The King 1122 (= Conn 16E I believe) and Yamaha YHR-302M are 3 > valve Bb horns in the shape of an overgrown cornet. They are played with > a horn mouthpiece and fingered with the right hand. The Yamaha is no > longer made (they list the current model as the YHR-322, which is > regular their 4 valve Bb French horn.) but is shown on their web site > under marching brass. The King brand seems to be gone. Note that the > King 1120 is not a marching French horn, but a marching mellophone and > should be played with a mellophone mouthpiece. The Conn-Selmer web site > does not list any mellophones or marching brass. HOWEVER, there are lots > of these instruments around in the used marketplace. > > I have King 1122, and it plays surprisingly well ($75 on eBay and about > 3 hours of repair work - lacquer is still spotty). The only issue I have > with it is that like most King horns, the receiver and venturi are on > the small side. If the mouthpiece doesn't go in far enough, it feels > stuffy and the high register goes flat. I'd suggest a mouthpiece with a > wide flat rim for marching. The Bach 10 or 11 would be good, but their > shanks run large, and you'd have to fit one to the horn to get good > performance. I've been using an old Conn 2, which fits it well and plays > well in tune. > > Richard Hirsh, Chicago > > > -- > > message: 2 > date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:45:22 -0500 > from: "John Schreckengost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ion Balu Stopped Mute > > One of my students came into his lesson with a new Balu stopped mute. > Although first surprised by the new design, I was amazed at how much > presence there was to the sound. I'm not sure how it would fit into a > case, and suspect that it needs to be carried/hous
Re: [Hornlist] Re: for no one
> Thanks for your information; I found out that Paul taught himself to > read and write music in order to be able to produce his "Requiem", > which was premiered some time ago. I heard that he had a team of people that he hummed/sang to, who wrote it down for him. e.g. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3D91E3FF933A05753C1A967958260 I don't mean this disparagingly - whatever works. At university here there's a folk music course, and many of the students have the measure of the classically trained musicians in terms of virtuosity even though I understand they learned to play without reading music. Kit ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
